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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:02 pm 


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CaptainRansom wrote:
What's a reasonable timeframe to 1cc a game and/or get a decent score? Sometimes it can be discouraging to play the same game for three weeks solid and still be unable to even 1cc it; I guess this is more of a motivation issue (which goes back to the whole state-of-mind thing Dragoforce touched on).


Some players can get results within weeks, some take longer. At the end of the day, it all boils down to interest and motivation - if you still find the game fun, keep going, otherwise, do something else. And if you think you're taking too long to get results, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your practice methods to address the issues.

For a marker, a few years ago I played Garegga, and Garegga only, for over a year straight. Recently, the longest I've invested into a game is around four months, and that was Batrider if I remember correctly.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:15 pm 


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That's actually really encouraging, Icarus. Thanks!
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:20 am 


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Mm, maybe I should rethink my policy of never continuing ever.

Since I started playing shooters I haven't allowed myself to continue. It makes progress a lot more interesting for me, since I'm working towards seeing new stages and patterns, but at the same time it does limit my exposure to later stages. Continuing just never feels right to me, it takes the pressure off.

I also have a habit of restarting if I mess up my first stage at all, which I should probably get over.

I dunno. I tend to just drill the hell out of a game to get better at it, and that's just the only way I've really done it. I've been playing for a while now and only today joined the forums, so maybe I can pick up some new techniques that will help me progress further.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:31 pm 


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Deca wrote:
Since I started playing shooters I haven't allowed myself to continue.


That's what I tend to do also. However, eventually you'll reach a point where you have an intuitive sense of the game; scoring techniques, timing of bullets, how to move / where to be, how fast your ship is, etc., and the only thing preventing you from that 1CC are bullet/enemy patterns on stages that you rarely get to see. Once you get to this point in a game's understanding, I recommend switching to save state abuse ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:57 pm 


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I am still unable to 1cc Deathsmiles and it is really starting to piss me off. I can beat all of the stage bosses rank 3 without getting hit or bombing except for that stupid tree. I keep getting hit by stupid shit though. No matter what I do I get hit by a single stray or I bump into an enemy multiple times throughout the game. Sometimes I make it to Jitterbug but I will be on my last life and I do not have enough practice with him. Does anyone else find you just keep getting hit with dumb shit when you are playing? I tell myself that I am going to pay attention and not bump into something but it keeps happening. :(


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:07 pm 



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Get more sleep, eat healthier, exercise. That's pretty much the only thing that's going to help you lol.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:32 am 


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I am still unable to 1cc Deathsmiles and it is really starting to piss me off.


At this point it's best to walk away from the game and get some fresh air. Or better yet, lock yourself in the room if you absolutely must. On Zakk's replay blog, he says "Being annoyed is a great motivator." He's right. When you push yourself to your limits, in that time you spend playing, saying "I'm going to do this, now!", that's when magic happens. It would have taken me forever to get past the fifth stage boss in Guwange, and the third stage of Daioujou, had I not done this.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:52 pm 


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Octopod wrote:
I am still unable to 1cc Deathsmiles and it is really starting to piss me off. I can beat all of the stage bosses rank 3 without getting hit or bombing except for that stupid tree. I keep getting hit by stupid shit though. No matter what I do I get hit by a single stray or I bump into an enemy multiple times throughout the game. Sometimes I make it to Jitterbug but I will be on my last life and I do not have enough practice with him. Does anyone else find you just keep getting hit with dumb shit when you are playing? I tell myself that I am going to pay attention and not bump into something but it keeps happening. :(


The thing that helped me the most 1ccing deathsmiles was drilling the castle in training mode for an entire evening. Just gotta memorize and be comfortable with the game.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:20 pm 


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Originally posted here:http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84

I deleted the comment and moved it to a more relevant thread.

The first stage of Guwange up to the final boss is incredibly easy for the most part. Occasionally I will die, and more often than not, lose my chain; but as far as survival goes I'm golden...except for one problem. Fucking Guwange-sama or whatever the hell his name is, has a very difficult pattern in his last form. It seems that standing in a spot for too long is a recipe for death, but I can never pull off the "shoot and move to another spot" tactic.

This has caused me to re-evaluate what I'm doing wrong, and the only probable solution is to ditch playing it on a tiny computer screen via Mame, and buy the PCB to play it on a reasonably-sized CRT TV.
I've heard that this is makes the game easier and more enjoyable...

Other than that snitch, this is hands down the easiest Cave shooter I've played. And I've played them all except for Ketsui, Pink Sweets and the Ibara updates, Galuda 2, Donpachi, both Deathsmiles and Muchi Muchi Pork... Galuda 1 gives me hell compared to Guwange.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:12 am 


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How to practice shooting games

Just play on Hard/Harder/Hardest skill level, then switch down to default.
Default will then become a lot easier.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:58 pm 


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With triangle service's "shmups skills test" of course.

It made me the man I am today. :)


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:01 pm 


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if you want to hear my opinion, I usually follow this way:

1) watch a good replay and try to understand what the player's trying to do
2) mess around with the game, and restart as soon as something goes wrong (because my memorization is so terrible, that if I don't do this, I wouldn't think about why something went wrong, and how this could've been avoided, or would even forget that something went wrong)
3) after getting enough exp in the first stage/stages, watch the replay/replays again to see how your route could've been optimized (if you ever want to, now, later or much later)
4) after internalizing the first stages, try to play cluelessly on the other ones (which will require you to do well on the first stages already), repeat them until you memorize them and then you may be able to absorb better the replays for these stages

What I wanted with this plan was to avoid relearning what to do on the stages/bosses, or avoid acquiring bad habits so I wouldn't have to correct them later. Credit-feeding would (imho) not be the best for me, because I can't memorize so much important keypoints in one run, and the rank wouldn't be the same (so, some things that would work in a credit-fed run couldn't work on an actual run). Savestating could help, though, even though it would also require me to relearn how to play in an actual run due to the savestate having a different rank and life/bomb count.
I do realize (from experience) that the way I've followed above wouldn't be the best one for games where the later stages allow you to score more for less effort (than say, Eden's Aegis and Mars Matrix), on competitions with a deadline.

Any tips for people with bad memory? :p
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:44 am 


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No such thing as bad memory - in fact, playing shmups probably speeds up access to relevant unconscious memories. For people with
"bad memory", I'd suggest following Icarus' guide, with particular focus to the "credit-feed" rule. Going through the game once and seeing the bullet patterns will, at the very least, help to ward off surprise shotguns to the face. Do this a few times until you feel comfortable, and then start practicing the normal way. (If using MAME, savestates are your friend.)

Now if the game requires memorization to score, like Dodonpachi does, then you're screwed. Happy trails! But you really shouldn't be focusing on scoring (aside from getting extends) unless you've 1cc'd the game a few times anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:50 am 


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Although im certanly no shmup master the best advice i can give is dont forget that your playing to have fun, of which some of the tips and tricks posted can suck out all the enjoyment if applied too obcessivly (epecially restarting). Ild recomend that you take the advice given and modify it to suit your own needs as challenges and learning new things are easier to acomplish when your having fun and are fully engaged in what your doing.

Also always take the time to read FAQs and guides so you know all the game's mechanics as knowledge is power as the saying goes
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:20 pm 


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Perl of wisdom from master SWY (from History of Shooting Game documentary):

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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:10 pm 


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Dave_K. wrote:
Perl of wisdom from master SWY (from History of Shooting Game documentary):


Isn't that only relevant in Arcadia-style rankings, though, where only 1ccs are taken into account?


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:38 pm 



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Yeah, good luck getting a 2-ALL on any double-loop Cave game before playing them for score. :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:16 pm 


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It also depends on your personal skill. If that´s the best way for this Japanese guy, then ok, but I always start to play for score immediately (or after I figured out what to do). And I think I got some fairly good scores in shooters where I can´t imagine to get the 1CC. Let alone games that demand playing for score to survive better (Mars Matrix, Cyvern, Raizing stuff...).

EDIT: A late thank you to everyone who posted these great tips. Great thread. :)
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Last edited by Battletoad on Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:18 pm 


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Especially for Raizing shmup this can't be true at all. You won't get anywhere in Garegga without playing at least a bit for score.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:34 pm 


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What I took away from SWY's comment is a way of prioritizing your goals. Having a primary goal of 1CC should come before all others. Understanding how rank effects your play, and how extends are obtained though scoring, should all factor into an early 1CC strategy, but not become an obsession in perfecting score in the first few stages, as we know this leads to frustration and bad habits like constant restarting, etc.

Plasmo wrote:
Especially for Raizing shmup this can't be true at all. You won't get anywhere in Garegga without playing at least a bit for score.


I'd say quite the opposite, as I've seen low rank clears of almost every Raizing game, including Garegga. Of course 1CC strategies may vary depending upon set extends, but new players obsessing over high scores in early stages usually get clobbered with rank in later stages.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:18 pm 



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A low rank clear in a Raizing game encourages you to score actively to even be able to lower the rank in the first place. Where else would you get all these spare lives? In this context, a no-miss Raizing 1CC is actually quite a lot harder than a normal rank-controlled play.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:55 am 


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moozooh wrote:
A low rank clear in a Raizing game encourages you to score actively to even be able to lower the rank in the first place. Where else would you get all these spare lives?


Suiciding, although the biggest way to lower rank in Raizing games, is not the only way to manage rank during play. If you don't understand the difference, perhaps we should take this conversation to another more appropriate thread?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:04 pm 


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I'd say quite the opposite, as I've seen low rank clears of almost every Raizing game, including Garegga. Of course 1CC strategies may vary depending upon set extends, but new players obsessing over high scores in early stages usually get clobbered with rank in later stages.


Depends on what we see as a low score. Trying to beat Garegga with a target score of 3-4mill is NOT an easy task. If you want to hit the golden mean regarding score/difficulty, I'd say 6-7mill is the easiest to clear the game.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:35 pm 


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Plasmo wrote:
Quote:
I'd say quite the opposite, as I've seen low rank clears of almost every Raizing game, including Garegga. Of course 1CC strategies may vary depending upon set extends, but new players obsessing over high scores in early stages usually get clobbered with rank in later stages.


Depends on what we see as a low score. Trying to beat Garegga with a target score of 3-4mill is NOT an easy task. If you want to hit the golden mean regarding score/difficulty, I'd say 6-7mill is the easiest to clear the game.
Bakraid on advanced isn't any easier in that regard because there are many factors that affect the difficulty, you can finish the game with 4-5 mil I believe however the difficulty will be quite insane at the end... by any means, 8-9 mil with suiciding and keeping yourself only to 1/2 lives in reserve all the way is the only way out. At least it was in my case..... BY THE WAY, final boss is hard no matter how well you controlled the rank :)
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:40 pm 



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I've always believed in playing to beat the game before playing to get a respectable score. There was a time in which I would try to get that respectable score first, and it only developed a yearning to beat the game. Eventually, I decided to satisfy that yearning first. And when I did beat that game, it made me feel free to do all those crazy scoring tricks that experts do again.

Back in 2002, Giga Wing 2 appeared in the UC Berkeley arcade. Awesome, I thought, a decent game to play in an arcade setting! I thought I'll take a break from Dodonpachi to experience this rare opportunity. I played it a few times and found the game fun, so I decided to look for more information about this game in order to get further in the game.

I found two high score tables: one in a forum called The Next Level (TNL) and another in a Japanese site called the Shooting Game Laboratory (SGL). I was intimidated by the scores in SGL, but I was enamored by the scores us westerners can do in TNL. Remember Mode7? He had a score of about 35.3 quadrillion with Chery at the time. I wanted to beat that.

Luckily, he had a movie demonstrating his 35.3-quadrillion-point run, so I tried to mimic it. The problem was I started to drop some lives in stages 5, 6, and 7. I got a little frustrated, but I decided to keep plowing through the game anyway. Meanwhile, I discovered a Japanese web site by someone named aphrodite. He had a strategy guide detailing how to simply beat the game with Ralugo. He mentioned how strong his mines are at taking bosses down and where I should use my bombs (the bomb distribution).

Eventually, I incorporated the idea of the bomb distribution with Chery, but I would still try to score well at the same time. Every time I entered stage 5, I felt this urge to beat the game. But at the same time, I wanted to score well, because I didn't know any other way. I decided to suppress this urge a little. I would use bombs on the places where I would usually die but still try to milk bosses. I would get to the last stage this way, but I kept dying. Always so close!

One day, I got fed up. Four or five times I was at stage 7, but the boss kept swatting me down to death. I just want to beat the game now! Let's just get it over with. I played one credit with Ralugo. His mines took down bosses quicker than I ever imagined, and I ended up in stage 7 with two lives. The only time when I died was when I tried to use Chery's safe spot for one of the last boss's patterns with Ralugo, and it didn't work. But after then, I just bombed and reflected and nuked the boss to death anyway. And I was so elated to finally beat that boss, even if I only got 5 quadrillion points in the end.

Eventually, I cleared the game with Chery, too. With renewed confidence and more experience dodging bullets, I was able to focus on doing crazy scoring tricks again and actually get close to Mode7's high score.

. . .

I thought, too, that I could never beat a shmup, so I may as well try to go for a high score. But the closer I got to beating the game, the more I wanted to finish it off. This made me confused: should I play for score or survival? And the way I refocused on score is to beat the game first. There's just something so awesome about beating a game that only hundreds of players have beaten, and there's just something so unfulfilling about not beating a game despite earning higher and higher scores.

I don't want beginners to go through the same confusion that I went through with Giga Wing 2. That's why I advise beginners to just beat the game first, since the goal is clear and easy to grasp. This builds confidence and experience. Then they can focus on the easy scoring tactics next and try on the harder ones later.

. . .

I do see that some of you play to get a respectable score regardless whether you beat the game, and you guys are fine with it. How do you do it? Does the urge to beat the game eventually come up? I'd imagine that some beginners insist on playing for score anyway, and I would like to prepare them for any frustrations that come up.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:04 am 


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I think SWY means you obviously need to have played thru all the levels and know the basic strategies/location of enemies/etc.

Remember - these Japanese players all play in Arcade without luxury of savestates or stage practice. Obviously the first thing to do with a new game is try to clear it on 1 credit so you can actually get a clear picture that you can start building basic scoring strategies on.

Raizing games are different because of the mechanics but the key goal is the same - learn all the stages/bosses/patterns and then incoporate all the scoring tricks.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:59 am 


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I just gotta say, after reading this thread, I decided to just try and beat the game and not worry about score. About one hour later...

I got to the final boss in the first loop of DoDonPachi in one credit with a score of 30M (highest being 38M)

I got to the fourth stage of Guwange when I usually only make it to the second in one credit.

I got to the final stage of ESP Ra. De. with a score of 5.5M. Overall, my best run ever.

Take it from me, I think it's better to just 1CC the game first. Screw score, just shoot like a maniac.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:22 pm 


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BER wrote:
I do see that some of you play to get a respectable score regardless whether you beat the game, and you guys are fine with it. How do you do it? Does the urge to beat the game eventually come up? I'd imagine that some beginners insist on playing for score anyway, and I would like to prepare them for any frustrations that come up.

That's how I approached DOJ, I didn't care about 1CC and just started learning scoring right off the bat. I learned and learned and learned with level select, then when I felt ready did full runs. I was never thinking of 1CC, I had a scoring goal in mind, so when I missed too much or failed too many chains I just rebooted, until I got a score of 480M or something, then lost interest for some reason.

Then some time passed and I couldn't even remember if I ever 1CC'd the game ! lol
but I played it again at some meet and easily 1CC'd it there. If you have learned scoring routes and got consistant enough at them it's very easy to get your 1CC, since you have extends and know paths through the stages that don't put you at too much risk.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:08 am 



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PROMETHEUS wrote:
BER wrote:
I do see that some of you play to get a respectable score regardless whether you beat the game, and you guys are fine with it. How do you do it? Does the urge to beat the game eventually come up? I'd imagine that some beginners insist on playing for score anyway, and I would like to prepare them for any frustrations that come up.

That's how I approached DOJ, I didn't care about 1CC and just started learning scoring right off the bat.

Was this your attitude right when you started playing shmups, or did it develop over time?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:46 pm 


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BER wrote:
Was this your attitude right when you started playing shmups, or did it develop over time?

Oh no that developped over time. The first shmup I started to play for score was DoDonPachi, and before trying to even chain anything I just did a lot of "survival practice", then tried to 1CC, then tried to 1CC with a better score by dying less...

The day I started to learn chains though, I never stopped, and never played a shmup just for 1CC again except at meetings, on games I couldn't play at home, and without enough time to learn scoring.

I think it comes from the fact that I'm always practicing with level select / saved states instead of full runs. If you are practicing with full runs, you are tempted to try surviving longer and longer as proof that you are getting better at the game, because it is very unpractical to experiment and improve scoring that way. Obviously then, 1CC becomes a threshold you want to reach.
When you're practicing with level select or saved states, you are making so much faster progress at scoring that you pretty much feel rewarded all the time by that progress, and don't need to prove yourself you can 1CC since you're already getting proof that you are getting better.

Besides since scoring takes a lot more skill than just surviving, making progress at scoring in practice feels way more rewarding than any 1CC to me.
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