ST: Armed Police Batrider (21.7.14 - correct rank info)

[Icarus]

So, it turns out most of that information is wrong.

Hah! I figured as much. At least with your efforts we have something a little more concrete to work with. Many thanks!
I've dropped your rank information into the ST, pending it being written into a more non-programmer-friendly format.
(I'd ask if you've had a look at Bakraid, PS and Ibara's systems in the past, but since there's no STs for them currently, there's no point in pursuing it further at present.)

Each frame, rank will be increased by rank_frame PLUS HOW MANY UNUSED CREDITS ARE IN THE MACHINE HOLY SHIT YAGAWA YOU GENIUS

Brilliant.

[trap15]

I still can't get over that bit haha. At first I was like "huh what's this variable", so I set a watchpoint on it... started up a game and noticed the set to 1 when adding a credit and back 0 when start pressed... so I added another coin and it went up again... and another and up again... Then the uncontrollable laughter

Great idea though, gets those credit feeding machine hogs off the game quicker

EDIT: Also, I have extensively looked into Bakraid's rank. If you wanted to do something with that, I can dig back through my notes and dump something out for ya.

Also, the bit about "starting on easiest rank" from croikle is a bit misinformed. The game always starts at minimum rank. However, holding Start when the machine boots (or to exit text mode) makes that minimum rank (and thus starting rank as well) significantly lower. This isn't Garegga, rank is refreshed on each new game.

[Icarus]

EDIT: Also, I have extensively looked into Bakraid's rank. If you wanted to do something with that, I can dig back through my notes and dump something out for ya.

If you already have them to hand, then please do. The Bakraid ST is barebones, but having correct rank information at the very least helps inform players.

Also, the bit about "starting on easiest rank" from croikle is a bit misinformed. The game always starts at minimum rank. However, holding Start when the machine boots (or to exit text mode) makes that minimum rank (and thus starting rank as well) significantly lower. This isn't Garegga, rank is refreshed on each new game.

So what's the best way to word that? "[Holding Start on boot, or to exit Test Mode] sets the minimum and starting rank values to a much lower default than normal, and this value persists until the next time the machine is rebooted. This should always be done on bootup to make your first credit easier."?

Also, I thought rank persists across credits in Batrider?

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Upon continue, rank does not reset, but rank_frame DOES.

Also:

Graze: @$9AA2, for -$80 per frame per bullet, graze animation denotes a graze

I thought grazing was a thing, but there's not really enough to graze in the game for this to be a viable rank reduction (and scoring) technique. Not unless you abuse bomb invincibility somehow.
Interesting to note though.

Special Extend has same rank effect as a regular extend at same rest

This is interesting, however, and makes getting Special Extends within Advanced Course runs a viable tactic.

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CashWad | $000400 | @$302BE

So rank actually goes up when you pick up Confrict's cashmoneyloot?

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Medal: @$30010
        Dropping has no effect
    Type  | Value
----------|--------
 100~900  | $000
1000~9000 | $100
    10000 | $200

Big medals are worth more in rank increase than small medals? That's an interesting change of pace from Garegga.

EDIT: Just linking to your recent "input lag" thread for reference: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51021

[trap15]

EDIT: Also, I have extensively looked into Bakraid's rank. If you wanted to do something with that, I can dig back through my notes and dump something out for ya.

If you already have them to hand, then please do. The Bakraid ST is barebones, but having correct rank information at the very least helps inform players.

Sure, I can try to dig that up later.

Also, the bit about "starting on easiest rank" from croikle is a bit misinformed. The game always starts at minimum rank. However, holding Start when the machine boots (or to exit text mode) makes that minimum rank (and thus starting rank as well) significantly lower. This isn't Garegga, rank is refreshed on each new game.

So what's the best way to word that? "[Holding Start on boot, or to exit Test Mode] sets the minimum and starting rank values to a much lower default than normal, and this value persists until the next time the machine is rebooted. This should always be done on bootup to make your first credit easier."?

Good way to word it, for the most part. However:

Also, I thought rank persists across credits in Batrider?

Code: Select all

Upon continue, rank does not reset, but rank_frame DOES.

I meant an actual continue, not starting a new game. Look at the part where I give the algorithm for starting rank, I mention that starting rank gets reset to minimum rank once the game goes to the character select screen. So no, Batrider does NOT persist rank through credits.

Also:

Graze: @$9AA2, for -$80 per frame per bullet, graze animation denotes a graze

I thought grazing was a thing, but there's not really enough to graze in the game for this to be a viable rank reduction (and scoring) technique. Not unless you abuse bomb invincibility somehow.
Interesting to note though.

It's not worth much for score, but it's a non-trivial amount of rank if you have a large cluster of bullets to graze.

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CashWad | $000400 | @$302BE

So rank actually goes up when you pick up Confrict's cashmoneyloot?

Yup!

Code: Select all

Medal: @$30010
        Dropping has no effect
    Type  | Value
----------|--------
 100~900  | $000
1000~9000 | $100
    10000 | $200

Big medals are worth more in rank increase than small medals? That's an interesting change of pace from Garegga.

Correct. Bakraid is the same way.

[Icarus]

I meant an actual continue, not starting a new game. Look at the part where I give the algorithm for starting rank, I mention that starting rank gets reset to minimum rank once the game goes to the character select screen. So no, Batrider does NOT persist rank through credits.

Haha, that's actually really interesting. I guess it was pointless me racking up 1000+ hours just letting the attract sequence cycle, then.
Goddamn Garegga habits. :3

Code: Select all

Medal: @$30010
        Dropping has no effect
    Type  | Value
----------|--------
 100~900  | $000
1000~9000 | $100
    10000 | $200

Big medals are worth more in rank increase than small medals? That's an interesting change of pace from Garegga.

Correct. Bakraid is the same way.

The more I learn about the various rank systems, the more I picture Yagawa as some crazy mad scientist type cooped up in his programmer lab, devising ever more convoluted and torturous rank systems to inflict on the shmupping population.

Thanks for the hard work!

[Aquas]

I can work on getting screenshots made. I already have the save states to capture most sections anyway.

[chum]

Each frame, rank will be increased by rank_frame PLUS HOW MANY UNUSED CREDITS ARE IN THE MACHINE HOLY SHIT YAGAWA YOU GENIUS

Brilliant.

This might explain why my rank got higher than it should've with my team practice states.

[Icarus]

I can work on getting screenshots made. I already have the save states to capture most sections anyway.

Take your time, and thanks. :>

Each frame, rank will be increased by rank_frame PLUS HOW MANY UNUSED CREDITS ARE IN THE MACHINE HOLY SHIT YAGAWA YOU GENIUS

Brilliant.

This might explain why my rank got higher than it should've with my team practice states.

I'm usually a one-credit-at-a-time person - a habit from some games which won't display the high-score table unless all the credits are depleted - so I never noticed this in effect. But adding current unused credits to the per-frame rank increase is deliciously evil. :d

[trap15]

Gotta keep poking on this until it gets properly understood You really should just forget everything people used to say about Batrider's rank, it's really deceptive and mostly untrue. If there's anything you can't glean from my document, let me know and I'll find it; I'd rather everyone just forgot what we used to "know" because it's mostly wrong.

By default, Batrider starts with a difficult initial rank.

Not quite starts, but has, and not even initial, it's just the rank in general is a lot higher.

To work around this, set the game to enter the test menu on boot (F2 flips this dip in MAME). Press START with the cursor on GAME MODE, and the game boots with minimum rank.

It always boots at "minimum" rank, but what that minimum is is lower if you're holding start. It'll never get easier than it is at the beginning, once you enter character select it's at minimum.

This should always be done on bootup to make your first credit easier.

Your first credit will be the same difficulty as your second and third, etc. as long as you pick the same course. If you don't hold start, everything is the same but minimum rank is a lot higher.

[Icarus]

How's this?

We should put something in about how to start the game with easier rank.

Batrider's minimum rank is set to a high value when it is booted up, and this value is used for every subsequent new run until the board is reset. However, there is a way to set its minimum rank value to something much lower than this, by:

1. entering the test menu on boot (F2 flips this dip in MAME)
2. pressing START with the cursor on GAME MODE.

The button used is important: pressing A does not get you the desired effect. Also note you can achieve the same effect by booting the game while holding START.

One other thing is that unlike Garegga, Batrider's rank does NOT carry across new games - every new viewing of the Character Select Screen sets the rank off from the current base value, like Bakraid. The only thing that will affect your new games is the amount of credits currently entered, so for the lowest possible starting rank, only put in one credit at a time.

[trap15]

I like that, perfect

[Plasmo]

The only thing that will affect your new games is the amount of credits currently entered, so for the lowest possible starting rank, only put in one credit at a time.

What happens if I'm on freeplay? Even lower rank (because I don't insert any coins) or much higher rank (because infinite coins)?

[trap15]

Free Play is the same as 0 extra credits. It's how many unused credits are in the machine, not total. So hitting start with 1 credit in will drop the counter to 0, so no extra frame rank.

[trap15]

Updated pastebin: http://pastebin.com/A5ZS5fFd

For full bombs, there is no rank change. Partial bombs are $8000.

[Plasmo]

Updated pastebin: http://pastebin.com/A5ZS5fFd

For full bombs, there is no rank change. Partial bombs are $8000.

So this japanese guide ICR linked to was right about this after all. Interesting.

[cools]

So we should consider the Start button minimum rank a nonstandard setting and invalidate scores achieved by using it?

[Plasmo]

No. Or do you think we should ban resetting Garegga each time? That's ridiculous.

I would rather strongly recommend to do this if you're playing Advanced. Furthermore this was already common knowledge over the last few years and all scores in the highscore topic probably made use of it.

If you're playing Normal course however, you want to start out with the highest rank possible since higher rank = higher score.

[trap15]

They're actually quite different situations. With Batrider, start boot will give you minimum and starting rank FAR below what is actually possible otherwise.

I still think it's valid, but it's worth knowing that they're not at all relatable.

[CStarFlare]

You could make a strong argument either way. Entering a button code feels very close to a cheat code, though if the game accepts scores earned with the lowered rank I don't know how possible it is to ban it.

I'm more interested in the credits thing - maybe some upcoming STGT will have a 9 credit special course challenge?

[Plasmo]

They're actually quite different situations. With Batrider, start boot will give you minimum and starting rank FAR below what is actually possible otherwise.

I still think it's valid, but it's worth knowing that they're not at all relatable.

That's not really the point.

If we ban non default settings in one game because you can get 5 instead of 2 lives to start your credit with or in another game because you can get 99 instead of 2 doesn't matter. Both are banned because they aren't default settings. The latter one isn't banned "more" than the former one.

For the same reason Batrider and Garegga rank reduction can not be banned. It doesn't really matter how severe the one difference in rank is over the other. Both seem totally fine to me.

[trap15]

What I'm trying to say is, Garegga is universally considered OK because it is just a quicker way to get to the same rank setting. For Batrider it's closer to the edge because it gets you a completely different difficulty setting. It's an even greater change in difficulty than the Difficulty DIP switches (even on Very Hard+Start, it's easier than Easy+NoStart). My main reason for considering it OK for scoreboards is that it's such a common thing now that you'd have one hell of a time not only establishing whether existing scores use it, but also whether any future scores use it.

[Aquas]

If you're playing Normal course however, you want to start out with the highest rank possible since higher rank = higher score.

I'm currently looking into if this is actually worthwhile for score. lol. I've been getting swatted down decently so far in my Normal Course attempts on Default Rank. Some bosses turn into real assholes at the default rank, most notably Boredom and Deviate. I can't actually kill off Deviate's pods entirely on a default rank run without using bombs. On minimal rank bootup, all of his pods become destroyed snugly around the time he's timing out if you do it right.

On the validity argument for score submission, well, it might be unfair to the people who never knew the Start trick and are fiercely attempting to compete? But it seems anyone relevant knows about the trick. I want to know more about why the function even exists. Optimal scoring is so much harder on Default Rank, especially on Advanced course.

I wonder, if flawless rank management can contain the madness that is Default Rank Advanced course scoring, but I think it's a lost cause.

[ciox]

Minor corrections to the guide:
- Confrict's "Yellow plasma cannons" can be destroyed with a piercing shot for full value
- Confrict's "Side laser turrets" can be destroyed with a non-piercing shot for full value
- the 30k desk in the Gigantech building stage can be destroyed with normal shots for full value
(edited)

[n0rtygames]

So I'm kinda starting to get in to this game seriously.

Reading this ST - for Confrict your guide is saying to crack open both safes together. Noticing in your 1.28m replay video you're just doing one at a time. I'm curious about how much of a difference this actually makes in reality when you're up against the clock in that fight?

[Icarus]

I personally do one side at a time as it's a rhythm I have, I time the boss fight that way, and one side at a time means less to deal with at once. I'm also more consistent with this method.
Others will do both at the same time, to allow for more time for specific targets to (randomly) activate.
Do whichever make you comfortable, as there's very little difference in base pointgain if you don't count the fireball turrets and the rear missile launchers into the equation.

[ciox]

So I'm kinda starting to get in to this game seriously.

Reading this ST - for Confrict your guide is saying to crack open both safes together. Noticing in your 1.28m replay video you're just doing one at a time. I'm curious about how much of a difference this actually makes in reality when you're up against the clock in that fight?

I see experts crack both safes and aura kill the safes before they time out all the time, this is because the value from the money doesn't quite compare to the 200k from the hidden boss parts on Confrict and because aura-killing the safes before they're done should give you roughly the same amount of money than if you had waited but faster.
Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KMabRY_TjI

Another thing to note about Confrict that doesn't seem to be in the guide, the 30k flamers start in a special "box" form that lasts a while, destroy them in this form and you only get 1k.
Oh, and the guide doesn't seem to have anything about the two "holes" on each arm that open/close periodically and fire that small aimed spread pattern, destroying them while open (with any shot?) will give 5k, these are located on the arm segment that's between the flamers and the last segment with the "side laser turrets".

[Icarus]

By the way, there's a 36mil Advanced Course TAS on nicovideo.
#1: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24304658
#2: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24306504
#3: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24334861
#4: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24350268

[CloudyMusic]

I was just rereading the "Rank System in Basic" section in light of Trap's findings, and I have a few suggestions for things that could stand to be updated to reflect our current understanding. (There are also a couple things that are left over from the Garegga guide that I'll note, too.)

-----

"Play for score": this section still features a mention of the fixed stage 3 extend in Garegga.

"Don't hoard bombs": likewise, this references the Garegga flamingoes.

"Don't hoard lives": not an inaccuracy, per se, but it might be worth adding that it's even more important to avoid hoarding lives not just to maximize your rank decrease upon death, but also because extend items generate a HUGE amount of rank, and that amount is increased heavily when you have more lives in stock.

"Use large items to power up when possible": if Trap's rank information is correct, the opposite should be true: small shot powerups give only 256 rank, while large ones give 32768(!). Weapon fragments are a similar (but less severe) story: small weapon fragments give 2048, while large weapons give 131072, with no additional rank for completing a full weapon. (40 small weapon fragments = 81920, or less than 2/3 the rank of a large weapon item).

"Be wary of raising the autofire rate": on the contrary, it seems like this can actually be preferable compared to picking up a bunch of options, at least for the purposes of rank control. There's no per-frame rank increase, so the only thing that changes is the extra rank generated from firing more shots. Plus, it can obviously be lowered at will.

"Don't collect power-ups when your power is 'maxed'": there's no (extra) rank increase for doing this. It's useless, obviously, but it's not the rank bomb it is in Garegga.

"Don't lose your medal chain": low-rank medals actually give zero rank, and there's no extra penalty for dropping one or anything like that. Not relevant! (It is sort of interesting that on the first page of this thread, Twiddle specifically says that the medal rank behavior is the same as Garegga, so I guess either he or Trap misread some data at some point...)

-----

If I've got something wrong, let me know, I'm no expert on this game. And if it'd be easier, I'd be willing to make those edits to the existing text and post a revised version.

[Icarus]

Just ignore that. It's a copy-paste placeholder and I haven't got round to editing it with the rank data from trap15 yet.
Not that anyone ever bothers to read it in the first place. :V

[Noah!]

oh hey this got bumped which means it's time for weird batrider stuff which i haven't seen posted here before? except none of this is really helpful for anyone. (though i think it solves that one mystery trap ran into)



so let's start with this screen. you might notice some extra info if you've played this game way too much. to access it, hold 1p start and 2p start before the screen appears (you don't gotta time this; if you hold them forever it'll keep showing up).

this makes it show two things. the first is the dip-set difficulty (normal middle game), but that CNT in the lower left? that's your starting rank (or rank_start_base_mul) in hex. as expected, booting the game with the start button makes it show (1)00, and booting it normally shows C0. however...



it can change. but it's based on performance rather than machine use. so from stage 3 onwards, this number goes down by 1 for each stage (FF for stage 3, FE for stage 4 etc), thus making the next game a tiny bit harder. these effects also stack with subsequent plays. and as the attract mode loops it goes back up two with each full cycle (to 00, so even if you don't boot with start it'll get there eventually).

technically it starts at +1 and then goes down, so game overing in stage 1 brings it up one. and secret stages count as stages too. wow noah you're such a nerd. tell me about your favorite anime.

so yeah i guess that repeated-play rank thing from garegga did carry over. it's still pretty minor all things considered but then again this is batrider. everything but is pretty minor.