GD: Darius Gaiden

[Rastan78]

Thank you for enlightening me, I had not heard of any of that before. Seems unfortunate that captured helper kills don't count towards score necessitating a workaround of sorts to maximize scoring. Did the devs ever say if it a design oversight or a deliberate choice?

It is odd to have a major score incentive to capture captains, but then you can't utilize them to kill things if you want the best score. Not sure if they meant it to be that way, but I wouldn't be surprised. The Darius series has other trollish or counterintuitive mechanics like fully powering up will actually make you less powerful.

I do think it's more interesting this way. At least on a few captains, like Zone A, your routing has to be much more nuanced than if it didn't matter who shot down enemies. Of course G Darius has a better, more fleshed out version of this system since fighting with captures is a major gameplay focus throughout.

The odd shot leveling system also adds a bit of strategy. Pro players can go for early max power and get a good number of red powerups at 5k max bonus. The tradeoff is increased rank, the last two captures will be way harder, and certain final boss fights will be much longer and more difficult. One thing that's easier at max is that throughout the second half of the game you don't have to dodge red powerups.

So if there were a patched rom that made captain's kills count for score and made the final powerup level actually the strongest, the game could be considered to be "fixed" or at least make more sense in terms of conventional game balance. Although I think that would remove two of the elements that can help differentiate player's scores at higher levels.

[Despatche]

The Darius series has other trollish or counterintuitive mechanics like fully powering up will actually make you less powerful.

What? That's really only in this game, and only with the absolute last main shot powerup because of its exact particulars (autofire also has an input on this). Gaiden is singularly weird. Things make more sense in the first Darius where you're actually switching weapons altogether and are having to power up completely from scratch, never mind that Wave is really good in the first Darius anyway.

[pja]

The Darius series has other trollish or counterintuitive mechanics like fully powering up will actually make you less powerful.

What? That's really only in this game, and only with the absolute last main shot powerup because of its exact particulars

I played without autofire and I was pretty sure that once you upgrade from the max piercing yellow laser to the green shot, it's way weaker (both King Fossil and Ancient Dozer take forever with it, and it doesn't look like this is due to rank alone).

I also seem to remember that the last weapon upgrade in Darius Twin also makes you weaker. (So that's 2/2 of the Darius games I played seriously so far:P)

[Rastan78]

I played without autofire and I was pretty sure that once you upgrade from the max piercing yellow laser to the green shot, it's way weaker (both King Fossil and Ancient Dozer take forever with it, and it doesn't look like this is due to rank alone).

Oh yeah the first green wave is super weak against King Fossil. The shot level from stage one that is just three white spheres has the highest pure damage output in the game if you're shooting point blank. Of course bc it lacks piercing ability it's not a balanced weapon to take on the whole game with.

It would be a funny challenge run type of thing to see someone actually no miss the game with that shot type to showcase how fast it can kill bosses with 30hz.

There's an ebb and flow to your power level all the way through DG so you really have to plan well for a fully optimized run. And a power up plan for a survival run will likely be different than for an advanced player doing max boss milking. Whatever changes you make you have to still be sure to land at a powerul shot level for each captain.

I'm not as experienced with Darius 1, but I know some players find Old ver. 1cc easier staying at low shot power and low rank. Or at least waiting to power up until after dealing with Fatty Glutton. Maybe I exaggerated it a bit, but there are pros and cons to leveling up early or late.

Extra is different bc laser and wave are more effective against bosses like Fatty.

[Despatche]

The problem with Darius pre-Extra is that you're normally stuck with Laser during Fatty Glutton (iirc it's not possible to get Wave for Fatty Glutton, at least not on difficulty B), which is suffering and Laser is arguably a penalty weapon. There isn't much more of the game after that, so doing the Missile strat and then powering up Wave sufficiently is difficult. Also, Missile is great with autofire and such. This all leads to most people sticking with Missile the entire game.

[Prickly Angler]

It would be a funny challenge run type of thing to see someone actually no miss the game with that shot type to showcase how fast it can kill bosses with 30hz.

Not a no-miss but here you go : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUZPZr8hWVE

That shot type is also very usefull in co-op play : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbOghpp ... A2&index=1

Aside from that, and extra challenge I don't recommend anyone staying with the three missiles/white shot types

[Rastan78]

Mokkun did a new world record for Zone Z on the Switch version. Which also makes the replay on the leaderboards a new highest scoring replay for those who have access to it. Glad to say I'm sitting in 2nd place behind him, but I think what he's done is play on a different Switch so has two accounts with 1st and 2nd so technically I'm showing up in 3rd lol.

[Prickly Angler]

Curious to see how much points he got from grey medals

And isn't it cheating to have two accounts for the same leaderboard ? I mean I.M.O, etc. could buy dozens of Switches and there wouldn't be anyone else left in the ranking (just saying you know).

[Rastan78]

Over 290k from grey medals which is very lucky. Since he beat his old arcade record by only around 10k I'm curious how they compare. It doesn't seem too unusual to get around 200k or even 250 while getting close to 300k is pretty rare.

I'm guessing Mokkun has also beaten IMO's old V' score (in terms of base points) and just not gotten the same luck on medals. Mokkun goes for early max red medals making the last couple captures and especially Storm Causer much more difficult which also gives a healthy point boost from those 5k red medal bonuses. He said he has been on track to get a world's first 12M on V' and died to Storm Causer more than once.

Yeah the double account thing wouldn't bother me unless someone was intentionally stacking the leaderboards while hiding their identity. If you had to get a new switch/acct hacked or gave your old one to your kid or something then whatever.

[Prickly Angler]

It'd be nice to see a 12M+ on the lowest scoring route. The Storm Causer fight must be quite something at max rank with full wave.

[Randorama]

...so, is this the unofficial Darius miscellanea thread? I was wondering if we have a specific thread for Darius, or if I can ask a few questions in this thread without raising eyebrows.

[Rastan78]

This one is at least focused on Gaiden. There's a thread that seems to be good for miscellaneous Darius related stuff:

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48110

[Randorama]

Thanks and apologies...whenever I use the "search" function, I somehow manage not to find what I am looking for

[Rastan78]

Well you started this thread back in the day so how can anyone complain lol

[Randorama]

...I had to check the first page to literally re-member this.

I admit that I would actually delete the original topic, since it was a quick-and-dirty compilations of things I knew about the game and that are mostly incorrect, I guess. This and other guides were all 1-hour efforts I wrote when I was in my early 20's (2002-2004), wikis were not a thing, and people were still thinking that reaching the loop in DDP was a massive feat of skill. I am half tempted to add nastier vitriol on the topic, but it would not be nice to keep being off-topic in a thread I opened myself. If there exist proper entry guides that I could link to, I may quickly edit the very first post.

Being on-topic: how long would a "full 26 stages" run would be, on average? I believe that sooner or later I should address this specific grudge, but the life of a proper adult is demanding. I remember something around 2 hours: is that correct?

[Rastan78]

You mean the Darius Gaiden Extra 2P side full run? I think it's more like 1.5 hours.

I wouldn't even worry about the first post. It's great for that moment in time. I mean now we know the pt. medals are completely luck bc people looked at the code. That wasn't known in 2005. I think even in Japan they had their theories about the medal value being tied to amount of time on screen or something.

I discovered the original instruction sticker that came with the Japanese PCB says the silver medals are random. Hidden in plain sight all that time lol

[Randorama]

Thanks: definitely something for the summer holidays, I guess.

[Prickly Angler]

It'd be cool to re-write some sections (like on the rank) indeed as it can be quite confusing. I'm willing to help if necessary even though I'm less knowledgeable than other folks around here.

In the meantime I suggest linking the wiki page : https://shmups.wiki/library/Darius_Gaiden

It has a few imprecisions but is mostly accurate.

[Randorama]

I would actually be happy if someone can open a NEW thread for this game and therefore usher the love for giant fishes in a new era.

Some background (the actual request starts with capital letter):

I opened the original thread in 2002 or 2003, on the old forum, and scribbled down the first post during one hour of an August afternoon (while travelling, even).

For this and all of my other posts in this section, I wrote initial drafts with the intention of inserting and editing information as soon as people would fact-check the original posts and add more sources (and, generally, contribute something).

What happened in the next few decades is that some people opened new threads (GD's, ST's, etc.) and I removed my old notes as a consequence. This made perfect sense because:

1. The original intention was to proceed in that way, and have people who were/are actually experts to prepare properly documents about the games they love;

2. I completed my BA in 2004 and moved "abroad" several times: first to complete my post-graduate studies, and then for work. In the 2004-2018, I posted more erratically and generally had less time for gaming (welcome to real life: pursuing goals can involve sacrifices);

3. By 2006 or so I had zero interest in interacting with a certain type of obnoxious human being that obsesses over scores, videogames and other trivial pursuits, and acts like a sociopath/troll on the internet. I think that in that year the forum crashed and was opened again on this current platform. I remember copying and pasting these old threads and asking again if someone could take over and do justice to the games touched upon in each thread.

Let's just say that nothing happened except that some of the obnoxious human beings complained about the threads (and the scores?) without actually for the sake of picking up fights and trolling. This happened at a time in history in which everyone involved was in their late 20's/early 30's, though they acted as kindergarten lunatics (and they still do, though some people are now in their late '40s).

So, I did something else in my life (i.e. complete my studies, get jobs and promotions in different countries, get married, pay off a mortgage while living abroad, work out a lot even if I am getting older, etc.) while these threads simply disappeared in the forum's older pages.

In the last 5 years or so I have had more time to play games, but I still have zero interest in working on guides (and studying how wikis work so that I could write 21st century-looking online documents...). I follow the philosophy that it's never too late for anything, and in fact I am playing again really old games with the sole purpose of 1-CC'ing them. So:

THE REQUEST

If someone wants to open a new GD/ST on Darius Gaiden (Rastan78? Prickly Angler?), I'd be delighted to pass the torch. I would be perfectly fine if the old guide is used as a basis for a new draft, or a new guide is written. If you guys want to salvage the discussions held over the years, we can simply have two threads and post new comments in the new thread.

This one will fade into the background with time, so I don't think that it is necessary to delete it: having one thread for all the relevant & accurate information is however handy. Personally I'd be happy if we could have a GD/ST for each Darius game because I am slowly catching up with the franchise, again. I am now tenured, so I have more time and less pressure in real life. This series and Ray'z series will always hold a a special place in my heart, so it makes sense that I find time for them (absolutely cheesy cue: I ranted about this in the now defunct "Game's Quarter Journal", or whatever it was called ).

An incentive I can offer is this: if writing does not come naturally to you guys, I can help. Let's say that I write a lot because of my job, so I can help anyone who knows their stuff about games but does not know how to turn it into readable and accurate guides. I am not going to edit the original post, though, because I think that it's obsolete and you guys simply have "more commitment to the cause" than I.

If you have read so far...thanks. We are not in a hurry, so anytime you guys wanna open the new thread is fine. Since it will be yours, you can do as you please and I can give feedback as soon I can offer it. The offer extends to any potential GD/ST in the franchise that we might still miss. I only have seen the excellent Darius II GD by ACSeraph, so I am a bit clueless on what else we have available in this section.

Let's say that by helping with guides I'd also catch up with useful info on each game, so I'd be happy to cooperate under these terms

[Rastan78]

A full on Gaiden ST would be great. It's such a deep game that I think bc a survival 1CC is fairly easy the depth can go overlooked.

Currently my life is too busy to write one, but I'll try to help out or at least compile more info in this thread that can be used. When I wrote stuff here in the past (such as 44886 strategy, or higher enemy spawns and rank info) I thought maybe it will be useful in an ST someday.

If anyone does start a new ST feel free to copy paste anything I wrote. I have some things I researched a lot that need to be miniguides with pics/video. I think it's best to focus on things that will be bottlenecks that prevent new players from pursuing higher scores.

Also MathU has a great knowledge of the game and had planned a website, but has pretty much disappeared?

A list of things planned. It took a while to get mastery of these things to where I feel qualified to make a guide for them. (Maybe writing them here publicly will help motivate me in spite of my business/laziness):lol:

Neon Light Illusion scoring strategies
-Neon H crazy random pattern no miss dodging strategy, large tentacles max value and extended 4 minute rank boost
-Neon J all tentacles large and small max value destruction

Deadly Crescent
-All boss part get! Including difficult tailfin and survival of resulting impossible "angry" pattern

Odious Trident
- All boss part x10 get! Including hidden parts, survival and scoring guide.

Titanic Lance
- Max rank boosting/milking guide all sections. This one is extremely difficult and I still have things to learnt so I'll put it last

Bonus round?:
- Final captains max red wave capture guide

[Randorama]

All good for me; thanks Rastan!

Again, I don't think that this thread needs to be closed, but anyone who wants to start a new one and thinks that using my original notes would be useful, please do as you deem best. The original goal of my posts in this section remains the same as 20 years ago: get people who actually know the games to write nice & useful guides of them.

[Prickly Angler]

Same as Rastan78 I'm too busy with other stuff to do this right now. I don't plan on playing Darius Gaiden again anytime soon, and the wiki has detailed information about the basic mechanics. This topic should go on, there's very usefull information despite it being somehow hidden.

Plus I must say I have a bit of a writer's block when coming to write guides and such as I know how much a personnal opinion can affect people in the wrong way and confuse them (like saying you shouldn't do this when it's just an opinion, spreading false information, etc.) as I have been confused a few times in the past. Before I write something for a guide I need to be absoluetely certain about its accuracy, and many times I'm just not certain, or there's things I don't fully understand (this is unfortunately one of the reasons why I haven't written any guide yet). Writing imprecise things in messages, forum post, chat etc. by mistake is not something that I don't find too bothering, but for a guide/comentary it is.

I have a long way to come before I write a complete guide (especially for Darius Gaiden since there's many things I still do not understand more knowledgeable people). Feel free to copy/paste any usefull information I've written here, and ask any questions you might have on Darius games

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I can understand this, you're anxious about making a mistake in the guide that gets set in stone and potentially that inaccuracy gets passed down for a long time without correction. I've felt the same way when Randorama suggested I take over the Giga Wing ST.

But I think that it's also important to have good exposure, and sometimes just the work to compile the information so it's exposed and consolidated is good, even if it's potentially flawed (you can just put a "this information isn't guaranteed to be accurate and may be subject to change as new information is available) disclaimer sort of thing). Especially for games where there's just very limited available documentation about them that's compiled all in one space.

The Shmups Wiki is a potentially good place to add information as it's a community effort, so any potential mistakes have a better chance of getting addressed in the future.

this is a long-winded way of saying no I haven't forgotten about Giga Wing's ST thread, I still feel I suck at scoring but I'll get around to it I swear

[Randorama]

My two cents on accuracy:

I have published scientific papers with mistakes and inaccuracies, and those mistakes were also taken up by subsequent authors who cited them (e.g. "in Ursini (2019), XX is erroneously reported as YY"). In some cases, the errors stemmed from the fact that I could only draw some conclusions from what I knew at the time, and the data supporting that knowledge.

People could then improve on that knowledge because I actually did the mistake, and they were able to avoid that mistake. Case in point, I am revising a paper in which I mention that one of my previous papers made a mistake because my colleagues and I used a database (OpenStreetMap) for data extraction BEFORE it underwent a major update (i.e. we used older, more inaccurate data because it was all we had; we now have more accurate data).

I honestly can go to sleep at night without problems because I know that my mistake was useful, even if it will remain in print and I cannot edit it. I am still getting paid because that is how the system works; perfection is not of this world, and again mistakes sometimes need to be printed down so that people can figure out the right solution in the next attempt.

However, online guides can be edited, so mistakes can be corrected; that's the beauty of hobbysm in general. Nobody really pays you, so sometimes writing efforts may be demanding and the tokens of appreciation can just be trolls bitching about commas (because the interwebs). Nevertheless, authors can retain control of whatever they write and can therefore edit some document until it is technically "perfect". I don't think that anything needs to be set in stone, if we have tools such as wikis.

So:

All of the guides I wrote 20 years or so were based on quick notes that I took about some games I liked, and on which I never bothered to double-check even basic facts (e.g. Rayforce, in which the basic math about chains is wrong). The idea was to have people who actually knew the games well to take the guides and turn them into something readable and accurate.

Quite a few people over these years conveniently ignored this basic fact because I posted the guides again on this version of the forum after a crash in 2004, and then left the guides to rust, so to speak.

In one case, we actually had the original plan to come into fruition: SaucyKobold turned the Raiden DX ST into a gem of a guide; my original notes were just rubbish. In the other cases, I mostly remember rabid dogs bitching about the notes being wrong and then going on with childish trantrums about cheating and such, and generally acting like absolute sociopaths on anything regarding scores and guides.

So, if people now know more about Darius Gaiden and want to open a guide about it, I'd be happy if they want to take infos from this thread. If people don't want to open it because they don't want to handle fights with the falsificare trolls and the self-appointed high commissioners of shmup truths (a.k.a. "the twitter crowd"), I am also fine.

Anything you want to take from here, take it; it was meant to be shared and improved upon. I am also too busy chasing BareKnuckleRoo until the ends of Earth because he still hasn't revised the Giga Wing ST, anyway. You can run but you can't hide, Roo!

[Prickly Angler]

@ BKRoo & Randorama : I was refering to my personnal problems with writing something that'll be considered as a reference (and that hinder my abilty to write outside of forum posts, discord, etc., some of them which were mistaken on many things btw). Of course I appreciate any efforts done for spreading information, even if there's some mistakes, the Darius Gaiden guide still has very usefull informaion, but yeah I'm not at ease doing this myself yet as sometimes a personnal opinion can go a long way into influencing another person's mind.

I'll take a very personnal exemple to illustrate this : I was very discouraged to buy Darius II on the Saturn six years ago (as I had planned to after getting Darius Gaiden) because ACSeraph said that it was bad. Turns out I've tested the port, and having played probably more than 1k hours on the DCC I can vouch the port is more than fine, and much more accurate than Darius Gaiden port actually : I could have had a blast with the game at a time when I didn't know much about the genre but didn't because of someone's opinion on the internet. I can't blame ACSeraph but expressing his honest opinion, but on such specific topics any opinion can go a long way to influence people in the wrong direction despite having the best intentions. I have the same type of issues when I read "you should play this game with autofire" when the game is doable without it (as I've seen and heard in many Darius Gaiden guides for instance), or "you musn't do that", and even "just use this ship", or "play this way". As those types of stances get repeated on without much examination or thought given you end up with shmup hordes of players playing how it is written and without ever questionning what's written (I plead guilty of that). I've seen it many times for different games : players tend to follow and copy whatever's written/showcased on guides without ever trying to think outside the box. I once even heard someone say "is it necessary for me to read the Full Extend of the Jam for getting a 1CC ?", when that guide gives absolutely awfull advices for that purpose, just because it was repeated a hundred times by Mark and other people that it was the Holy Bible. Goes to show.

Factual information about a game can be easier or harder to verify, but writing a guide that will appear on the first page with advices is a totally different process than fact-checking, and it is also totally different from giving advice on a discussion. Shmup wiki is a nice place, but unfortunately factual pages often get filled up with personnal opinions (the Darius Gaiden page is a good exemple of that). Problem with the wiki is also that anyone can basically write and delete whatever they want, and it can be the place of editing "wars" (the Darius Gaiden page is again a good exemple), so it's not even necesseraly the best place for factual informations.

Again just saying why I don't feel like taking the responsability of any strategy topics yet, though I have no problem adding my two bucks like I did on Soukyugurentai, Darius II, Metal Black, etc.

[Randorama]

Merci Ms. Angler, and pas problemes pour moi (your use of punctuation appears French...I don't have a French keyboard layout on this PC, pardon moi).

...My general experience is that a guide describing the mechanics is perhaps a simpler document to write: you can sit down, fact-check how a game works, and write down a description of the facts. I don't honestly recall if ST's (=Shmups Treatises) were supposed to only focus on mechanics; the original Mode7's thread should explain it anyway.

"Score guides" or other documents tend to invariably contain opinions and personal perspectives sold as "general rules", for the reasons you mention. Human beings like to sell opinions as dogmas: religion and politics are built on that, and fandoms revolve around people trying to "sell" their very specific vision of their hobby, as far as I know. Again, the Twitter and "replays with DNA proof" crowds spent decades doing this. At least politicians get power and money out of this...attitude, but I digress.

Said this, GD's (=Game Discussions) were supposed to be discussions on "open problems" on games (e.g. "How do I get 51200 points from orbs in a Darius game?"). so they had different goals; this thread followed those goals, I think.

One final comment and I will STFU: if anyone wants to open an ST on the game and use material from my original post, it's all good for me. If something happens, do also open other threads on the game. Please don't think too much about it: the new thread may appear on the first page of a forum of old videogames on the interwebs, but I doubt that people's careers and lives will be at stake over possible mistakes in it (certainly nobody is going to dock your pay...).

These are only videogames: at 43, I am pretty sure that real life is something else.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Human beings like to sell opinions as dogmas: religion and politics are built on that, and fandoms revolve around people trying to "sell" their very specific vision of their hobby, as far as I know. Again, the Twitter and "replays with DNA proof" crowds spent decades doing this. At least politicians get power and money out of this...attitude, but I digress.

Yeah... Like I told someone recently (hi Dace), I don't want anyone to get the impression that I'm styling myself as a guru or something, or trying to speak "on behalf" of the broader shmups community either. I just play the games, y'know? I am fortunate that I have at least a couple of games I can play well and discuss at length knowledgeably enough from personal experience to compile guides for them. And then hopefully that gets more people interested in engaging with the games, but by no means can I promise infallibility or expect it out of others!.

~totally unrelated p.s.~: Sideline, Halley's Comet, and Raiga are all cool (the fact that I can actually play these for score well doesn't trigger my imposter syndrome so much when writing about them compared to Giga Wing >w>;;)

[Prickly Angler]

Sorry for my bad use of english ponctuation, I don't think I've ever fully understood it

I agree with what you guys have said there, as I have explained I was just giving more hindisght as to why I still have writer's block when it comes to full guides, not trying to discourage anyone I feel this is too much responsibility for me too handle at the moment even for games I've spent more than 2k hours playing. I'm willing to help edit the most confusing info of the original post but Randorama prefers that there is a new thread, I respect his point of view and don't feel like trying to convince him. I'd also like to contribute to a more elaborate strategy guide but I'm not playing the game and don't intend to for a while. Also there's better and more knowledgable players than me

In the meantime there's lots of usefull information spread through this thread and the "where is the Darius love at ?" thread for those who are interested enough to search. The wiki also covers most basic stuff, and we can maybe hope MathU opens his website he's been promising for the past ten years (fingers crossed).

[ACSeraph]

I was very discouraged to buy Darius II on the Saturn six years ago (as I had planned to after getting Darius Gaiden) because ACSeraph said that it was bad.

Sorry I missed this when the conversation was going down (looks like I've got a lot to catch up on here).

Anyhow, sorry if I turned you off to it, that was never my intention. Maybe I didn't express myself well enough back then. The Saturn port is inaccurate enough that it has a big impact on certain courses, but I never really thought it was bad exactly. It had just been held up on a pedestal as a perfect port when I bought it, but I was learning on an actual cab concurrently, so the differences were striking. Given that a much better PS2 port existed at the time, I found it hard to recommend. Had I played it at release I may have felt differently, and it's still very much a good game on Saturn despite the inaccuracies.

But yeah, my meaning was more, "buy PS2 version if you can" than "avoid Saturn port like the plague". Makes me a bit sad I turned someone off to a Darius game...(Other than Darius R, f*ck that pile of garbage )

Darius II GD by ACSeraph

This guide is an absolute mess and it embarrasses me to look at it in 2023... Add that to the list of guides that need a rewrite.

[Prickly Angler]

No worries, I more than caught up on Darius II ever since that time . It's true that no port is perfect, I haven't seen any that compared to the original in every possible point.

Don't be too hars on yourself with your guide, it gives some important tips. Feel free to add my suggestions as well, I'm always down for improving existing content (much more than creating my own haha). You can also use this guide, it has a lot of usefull info : http://mdrksg22c.livedoor.blog/archives/20163233.html