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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:04 pm 


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The most use I found for Saturn library of games, when I got to burn some discs for it, was playing them as audio CDs (mostly A.M.O.K. and Gun Frontier, if memory serves). Growing weary of internet piracy at the time, I was getting back into playing music out loud at home. These days, any time thoughts of mine reach towards those discs buried somewhere, it's with intent on playing the music again, this time through nearly all speakers I've gathgered since then.
Still, Sonic Wings Special I got legit for Saturn has been always a game I intended to revisit ever since spending plenty of time with burnt one for the PSX.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:20 pm 


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Out of curiosity, how do you guys feel the Saturn stacks up compared to the Dreamcast?

I bought a Dreamcast, but returned it shortly afterwards to the retro games store I got it from, partially because I had the feeling the laser would die out eventually (seems like these things have pretty bad lasers), and partially because most of its library felt redundant with most of its iconic sega games having been ported to modern platforms. Yeah, nights into dreams was ported at some point to various platforms, and panzer dragoon recently got that port, but what about Sega Rally, and the various RPGS that apparently had their source codes lost?

The two systems both have a strong lineup of 2d arcade ports, although the dreamcast is a bit better in that its arcade ports tended to be of games that originated on the sister Naomi platform, and thus are both more accurate ports, and still have merit today since Naomi games are a bit tougher to emulate compared to most MAME titles.

A lot of the people in the retro gaming scene have an affinity for the dreamcast, considering it an underdog system, yet I dont really see the same attitude towards the Saturn.

I'm not really sure which I would consider superior, although I did return the Dreamcast, and go on to purchase and keep a Saturn...
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:52 pm 


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cave hermit wrote:
A lot of the people in the retro gaming scene have an affinity for the dreamcast, considering it an underdog system, yet I dont really see the same attitude towards the Saturn.

I'd chalk that at least partially up to the "mystique" the DC has in the collective gamer consciousness, at least in the West, since it 1) Got more of a foothold here than the Saturn did before it disappeared, and 2) Gets to be Sega's much-ballyhooed "swan song", as opposed to "that one that the 32X was a stopgap for". It also gets praise for being "ahead of its time" in some ways (online play, the VMU), though I'm also honestly tempted to guess that more people have "discovered" it post-mortem because its games were so easy to pirate.

In terms of former exclusives appearing elsewhere, I'd honestly need to try putting together some sort of head-to-head comparison; both have lost some, though I couldn't say if one has been sapped more than the other.

Off to the side...

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The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn!

Every time I see this topic I hear it being read in Segata Sanshiro's voice. Which is weird, because I don't think he ever spoke much English ("HOME RUN!" et al excepted).
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:16 am 


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Dreamcast is pretty freakin' great.

Phantasy Star online hooked a lot of people, but that's a''you had to be there'' experience I guess.

Seeing Soulcalibur in the home on this thing is one of the most vivid gaming memories I have. Also a a''you had to be there'' thing I guess. But I still love playing Soulcalibur on that machine with buddies to this day.

Crazy Taxi is so much damn fun and an arcade classic. Powerstone is also arcade-y in gameplay and a great couch gaming experience with buddies.

Resident Evil : Code Veronica is one of my fave RE (just behind 2 but close) and I prefer playing it on that machine.
RE 2 is amazing version on this machine with assets with higher texture taken from PC version. Very good RE machine overall as you have 2, 3 and Code Veronica, with a crisp 480p output in RGB.

Some good light gun games but unfortunaltely the choices for guns are not great.

Some fun QTE/Rythm games in Jet Grind Radio, Space Channel 5, Samba de Amigo.

I don't know the game much but Virtual-On Oratorio Tangram seems really apprecated

Some great RPGs in Skies of Arcadia(it's the better version), Grandia II (again : the better version)

And of course I didn't mention fighting games like 3rd Strike(which is the console version to play IMO), Guilty Gear X, an extremely solid port of SSF2T (that's how I play the game on older consoles) and all the Capcom X-Men x SF games.

Of course some shmups.

Pretty varied/balanced output actually, which is one of it's strenght I think


One of the many great things about the Dreamcast, is not game related : it's its video output. Pretty much all Dreamcast games support 480p (which is vastly superior to 480i) and thatthrough a very good video output, it looks extremely clean. Through a PC monitor or a multisync crt, it is quite a trip.
In comparison, PS2 has like 20% of it'S library outputting at 480p... if you fuck about with GSM you can add a couple more but it's too much trouble for too little reward. The DC stomps it in that regard.
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Last edited by FinalBaton on Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:24 am 


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DC is (not was! gaming is never past tense to me :cool:) Saturn Again, pretty much. Strong home port system with an innate edge via arcade-based architecture, sporting both true Naomi ports (too many great games to list, Border Down, Crazy Taxi and Cosmic Smash offhand) and excellent transplants (Gunbird 2, Dynamite Deka 2, Soul Calibur). A bit light on must-play originals, but they certainly exist. I prefer its more aggressive arrangement of Bangaioh to the N64 original, and Shutokou Battle 2 still howls like a banshee.

I'm firmly in the "console = tool to play games" mindset, so as long as a machine has at least one or two killer games, I'll happily make room for it (32X Virtua Racing Deluxe redeems the unloved plastic mushroom mightily - sublime translation of analogue gas & brakes to digital). Saturn and DC alike are well clear of that "[game] adaptor" threshold, wouldn't be without either even though the MD is my favourite Sega console by some margin.
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Last edited by BIL on Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:27 am 


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Oh yeah, I forgot about Dynamite Deka. It's Big Dumb Fun, love it :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:33 am 


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Dem BEEFY HITZ, those goofy screams, that creative use of anything that's not nailed down and some stuff that is - like a urinal! (*WHAM* "EIHHH! EIIIHHH!"). Image
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:28 am 


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BIL wrote:
DC is (not was! gaming is never past tense to me :cool:) Saturn Again, pretty much. Strong home port system with an innate edge via arcade-based architecture, sporting both true Naomi ports (too many great games to list, Border Down, Crazy Taxi and Cosmic Smash offhand) and excellent transplants (Gunbird 2, Dynamite Deka 2, Soul Calibur). A bit light on must-play originals, but they certainly exist. I prefer its more aggressive arrangement of Bangaioh to the N64 original, and Shutokou Battle 2 still howls like a banshee.

I'm firmly in the "console = tool to play games" mindset, so as long as a machine has at least one or two killer games, I'll happily make room for it (32X Virtua Racing Deluxe redeems the unloved plastic mushroom mightily - sublime translation of analogue gas & brakes to digital). Saturn and DC alike are well clear of that "[game] adaptor" threshold, wouldn't be without either even though the MD is my favourite Sega console by some margin.


PCE into Saturn into Dreamcast. I know Sega had the Genesis, but in a lot of respects the mantle was kind of passed there I feel. This is totally just my own random ass thoughts on the matter, of course.

Nice to see someone else that appreciates Shutokou Battle. I have both of those, they rate.

Mentioning some killer DC titles that I haven't seen rattled off yet. Many good ones mentioned already.

Napple Tale, Rez, Puyo Puyo Fever, Twinkle Star Sprites (Saturn has this too I spose), Firepro Wrestling D, Toukon Retsuden 4 and Cool Cool Toon.

As someone that almost has the full library of fighters (only missing Street Fighter Alpha 3 Street Fighter III: Double Impact Super Street Fighter II X for Matching Service and Vampire Chronicle for Matching Service) I can say they are almost all worth playing but I do love this era of fighters in particular. I'd never get rid of anyone, but Mark of the Wolves, Last Blade 2, KOF 98 and KOF 02 are absolute stand outs.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:41 am 


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Although both Virtua Tennis titles from DC got serviceable ports to other systems, it's the first one that sums up Dreamcast in my book. The kind of enhanced port that, I think, since Tekken 3 met its makers' market expectations only in Street Fighter IV. Unless you know about any other coin-op title this relevant in the history of console gaming released between those two or later on (I guess some music/rhythm games could compete). Nonetheless, Dreamcast seemed to try living by such enhanced ports, which turned out to be a folly, but kept sustaining this game design philosophy. After all, having pulled the plug on a console did not stop Sega from releasing Super Monkey Ball for GameCube, then VF4 Evo for PS2 - the spirit changed its dwelling, was all.

Virtua Tennis, Crazy Taxi and SoulCalibur also mark the point when developers showed interest in explaining just how those "easy to pick up and play... while staying perfectly dilletante" games to gamers perhaps not raised in arcade environment, who could easily remain pretty clueless about their actual mechanics. Which is a lesson Capcom had learned years later, as shown in Onimusha 3 (first one in the series that cared to teach me how to play it properly; even the English manual for 2 was translated by a person who clearly had no clue whatsoever). Just how "sink or swim" difference it can make was then showed again by Vanquish - the title did not lack exposition in media, there was a playable demo alright, but the majority of potential buyers simply did not like what they found in demo, for it was not self-explanatory enough just to HOW play it fun way.

Last but not least, I can't help thinking of my Wii as the Dreamcast's sibling console, simply because it was a haven for the kind of games Dreamcast was predominantly about. See what a job Hudson Soft did on it just before riding into sunset.

P.S. On the PS3, Catherine strongly resembled aforementioned attempts on Dreamcast to me - to wrap such a primordial gaming experience in package a tad more saleable in this day and age.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:09 pm 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
PCE into Saturn into Dreamcast. I know Sega had the Genesis, but in a lot of respects the mantle was kind of passed there I feel. This is totally just my own random ass thoughts on the matter, of course.


Mega Doraibu is my ultimate bae Image she so hot! now granted, she's a total fucking edgelord, and as such she can be quite the headcase sometimes :roll: but when her lunatic friend WOLF TEAM tags along, shit gets really hot! and sometimes out-of-control. which adds a real element of danger, adding to the hotness. Then, you know some hefty SPLOSIONS are a-coming Image

But granted, PCE is hot AF too! like, damnnn... Image


(I take it you're talking more about who's the succesor to who though. and in that sense I kinda get it).
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Last edited by FinalBaton on Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:17 pm 



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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Street Fighter III: Double Impact


You missed the most accurate and advanced home port of a 2D Capcom fighter ever, man (two, actually). Slightly over Marvel vs. Capcom and the Jojos. It's tragic that the 3rd Strike port didn't follow suit. Though I'll always be partial to Saturn's Vampire Saviour and SF Zero 3.

Despite so many arcade ports, the DC was more of a mainstream machine than the Saturn was, which indeed was the successor to the Megadrive, the PC Engine and, to some extent, the PC98. Some would say that even to the Neogeo CD.


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:34 pm 


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I'm not too big on Street Fighter so I mostly have no desire to buy those. I do want to pick up the Vampire release at some point.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:40 pm 


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While DC had some nice Naomi based ports, there was also Saturn based arcade hardware and some nice ports from there like Soukyugurentai, Die Hard Arcade/Dynamite Deka, and Cotton 2.

Edit: May have jumped the gun on Puyo Puyo Sun. Still looks like a good port, but some of the music is different, most likely due to the Saturn version being on cd.


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:30 pm 


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BrianC wrote:
While DC had some nice Naomi based ports, there was also Saturn based arcade hardware and some nice ports from there like Soukyugurentai, Die Hard Arcade/Dynamite Deka, and Cotton 2.


Sure. Though I have to say... I (perhaps unfairly) perceive the dreamcast as just a "Naomi for the home", where I see the saturn's arcade port library too diverse for me to perceive the console as just an "ST-V for the home".

Of course the dreamcast had arcade ports that were non-Naomi based, but the era that the dreamcast was released in didn't afford the console the same type of uncharted waters the saturn (and, well, the playstation) had. All of the early/mid 90's arcade titles released (from when 16-bit consoles were the norm) finally available in a (mostly) accurate form for your home? So cool!

F1, F3, Toaplan version 2, CPS1,1.5, 2, Neo Geo, CAVE 68000, IREM M92, Konami nemesis. I'm cherry picking and being obviously biased but I find the saturn far more interesting than the dreamcast when it comes to arcade ports. I obviously have a preference for early to mid 90's arcade games and well...the late 90's early 2000's arcade titles I enjoy weren't really ported to the dreamcast.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:50 pm 


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The Dreamcast has Radirgy on it while the Saturn doesn't. The winner is obvious. Image

The Saturn has a decent amount of arcade ports too,but the accuracy/quality isn't always there, come to think of it. Darius 2 hitbox and nuclear bomb shenanigans, much easier Gun Frontier, loading-ridden Gekirindan, some additional slowdown in Darius Gaiden if you want to be pedantic, etc. You need to do your homework before getting a Saturn port.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:54 pm 



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It's not that different with the DC once you set apart the Naomi ports, and even then, there may be (minor) differences too (Crazy Taxi, etc).


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:30 pm 


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Yeah good point, for the DC I was mostly thinking of NAOMI ports since they are bound to be more accurate than games that were originally from other platforms.
Are they more or less accurate than the STV ports are on the Saturn, then?
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:39 pm 



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Saturn was easily better than DC.

Saturn lasted its 5 year span, DC was dropped much earlier.
Saturn pad is one of the best, DC pad is one of the worst (Ever)
Saturn still has many exclusives, DC has much less.

DC was only good at the time. I overlooked the pad at the time which was the worst. Did I mention how much I hate that fucking joypad.?
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:19 pm 



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Naomi to DC ports are more accurate than STV to SAT ones. There's no 2D fighting game born on the STV which had an accurate SAT version, for starters.


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:42 pm 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Naomi to DC ports are more accurate than STV to SAT ones. There's no 2D fighting game born on the STV which had an accurate SAT version, for starters.


What's off with Astra Superstars and Groove On Fight? Don't these support the expansion RAM? I watched a comparison video of Astra and, while I need to play to be sure, both versions looked very similar. One thing that disappoints me with some STV ports is how they replace the soundtrack with CD audio, despite the Saturn supporting chip sound. Not always a bad thing, but the Saturn has nice sound on its own. I'm guessing cart vs CD is part of the reason for the differences in some games and extra RAM is another. I did hear that the port of Dark Legend/Outlaws of the Lost Dynasty/Suikoenbu sucks, though.


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:38 am 


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Saturn & DC are like Jordan & Pippen. They're ham'n'eggin' it, one starts strong the other finishes strong but you can't pull the two apart or pit one against another without losing some part of that ineffable whole, so why even try?
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:30 am 



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I tend to forget that Astra is a 2D fighting game given its nature, but yeah, it's likely that it has all the animation frames at least with the 4MB cart. Never really cared enough to check. Groove on Fight did lose evident animation frames here and there, though, and the neverending loading from the disc just made of it a different experience (and there's the CD music too, indeed).


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:39 pm 



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The Saturn's the console I have the most nostalgia for, I like the way the audio sounds and the kind of grainy pixely look of the graphics for some reason, and it has the best non-analogue controller :) Going from 2d games to the fluidity of games like Virtua Fighter 2 and Nights was amazing at the time. The main thing I didn't like about it though is it seemed to have the most unreliable save file backups, even the memory cart would lose saves sometimes.

Some games I'd recommend that I don't think were mentioned are

Shining the Holy Ark - Shining Force style first person dungeon crawler, I remember the puzzles being pretty good/difficult sometimes and it has an interesting mechanic where you can find hidden pixies in the environments which can help in battles.

Fighters Megamix - mostly a Virtua Fighter and Fighting Vipers crossover, with the VF characters having the updated movesets from VF3, but it also has some ridiculous characters like the car from Daytona.

Torico which is a really atmospheric FMV adventure that somehow has stuck in my memory.

Since this is the shmups forum there's also Cave's Steep Slope Sliders, an arcade snowboarding game with pretty nice drum and bass soundtrack.


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:54 pm 


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I got my brawlergen controller in, and played a bit of Daytona USA and Xmen vs. Street fighter with it.

Using the analog stick felt a bit pointless with Daytona given that the stick doesn't actually output an analog signal, like it is more natural to hold an analog stick for a racing game, but since it just mirrors the dpad in this case I might as well use the dpad for more accuracy. Maybe this dpad mirroring analog stick would make more sense for games like the first Panzer Dragoon where you have constant diagonal movement.

D-pad is quite tight, perhaps a bit too tight, as I'm getting some misfires with it, like in Xmen vs. Street fighter when I try to do special moves sometimes my character just jumps when I move the dpad to the left or right. Maybe it needs to be worn in a bit.

Buttons seem fine.

Can't really recommend it, although maybe it'll grow on me.


Also I burnt a copy of Shining the Holy Ark, I need a nice straightforward dungeon crawler in my life.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:42 pm 


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Since this somehow turned into a Saturn vs DC thread, here's a video with every DC game as well. It's even shorter, naturally. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOGYEqForOU


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:56 pm 


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This discussion actually prompted me to drop about $150 to rebuy a dreamcast ($30 shipped, but with faulty gd-rom drive), a GDemu board (clone obviously, $64), mounting tray ($24.99), controller ($10 shipped) and av/power cables ($10) Not too shabby when you consider a GDemu dreamcast sells for nearly $300.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:37 pm 


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I really like the Saturn as it has so many good Shmups and decent ports of Shmups.

Bizarrely I have played not a lot else apart from Shmups on the Saturn. I quite like the look of the Brawlers that the machine has, but again, I've never owned or played them.

I came to the machine very late on around 2001 or so and back them you could buy pretty much anything for reasonable prices apart from Radiant-Silvergun as I recall.

I have several spare Saturns just in case one fails - definitely a keeper.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:34 am 


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Quote:
Also I burnt a copy of Shining the Holy Ark, I need a nice straightforward dungeon crawler in my life.


Play Shining in the Darkness instead, it's a better game.
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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:38 pm 


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Saturn is probably the system I most enjoy playing today. I didn't get into JPN arcade ports until 2001 when I got Radiant Silbvergun. After that I found this forum and bought Garegga based on recommendations. It's what got me back into arcade games. It's crazy how many games were released in Japan (over 1000).

Still playing my Dreamcast a couple of times a week on my cab. My launch day system is still holding up strong. I've never had any problems with the laser or PSU.

Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Street Fighter III: Double Impact


You missed the most accurate and advanced home port of a 2D Capcom fighter ever, man (two, actually). Slightly over Marvel vs. Capcom and the Jojos. It's tragic that the 3rd Strike port didn't follow suit. Though I'll always be partial to Saturn's Vampire Saviour and SF Zero 3.


So you're saying Double Impact is a more accurate port than Third Strike? I've been playing a bunch of Double Impact lately and despite being a fighting game casual I'm really having a good time. Learning to play Alex now that I have an Octogate, makes it soooo much easier. I'm waiting to get better before starting to play third strike.


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 Post subject: Re: The world is burning: Time to talk about the Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:01 pm 



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3rd Strike is really a turd as a port on the DC. It's even laggier than the original.


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