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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 4:09 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5BZ09iNdvo

i'm assuming everybody has seen the Lego animation that the Chinese government posted about the US response to the virus?

Yes it's pretty batshit insane. Talk about heavy handed message :mrgreen:

As usual, being a message from a political org, it should not be gobbled as absolute truth (never become a super fan of one org or party or person for that matter, and never believe 100% what they say all the time, nor ever become fully ''in their camp'')

Yes most of criticism leveled towards the US in this vid is deserved.

But let's not forget that the ''temporary hospital build in 10 days'' is piece of communist propagandha (''look how quick things get done under dictatorship! 'mazing!'') meant to cover the fact that for the first couple of weeks of known virus transmission (which is the most crucial time frame to act in to stop an epidemic), nothing was done and the problem was wilfully ignored by the CPC. until it got out of hand. In those first few weeks, there was a grand meeting that happened where 2500 couples all around China met in the center of the epidemic, to then go back to their corner of the country and spred the disease big time. This pivotal moment was at week 3 IIRC and could (and should) have been prevented for sure.

the chinese people are not to blame (it disgusts me when i see people hating on the chinese citizens over this), but the party, the CPC, certainly earns a part of the blame for it's inaction in the first month

anyway, we're all in this together now

-------------------------------------------------

and on another note : we really aren't through with this. Italy, one of the first severely touched countries, just got it's heaviest death toll over a period of 24h yet - 474 dead. I've seen a journal article mention that the UK got 621 new deaths but I couldn't see if it was over the last 24h or what. Either way, very hard news. Russia apparently got 10 000 new cases and 57 eaths, it's really starting to bloom over there
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:48 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5BZ09iNdvo

i'm assuming everybody has seen the Lego animation that the Chinese government posted about the US response to the virus?

Wow, talk about adding fuel to the fire. I mean, apart from the veracity of that clip, that's 4chan level of discourse, or rather, taunting.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:24 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Yes most of criticism leveled towards the US in this vid is deserved.


I agree that "officially" it was deserved.

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the chinese people are not to blame


Right, and neither are the american people. We have a bunch of nut-jobs in charge of things.
And although it's obvious that CPC is pushing their agenda, the current US administration is making it really easy for the CPC to look sane in this situation. It's what happens when things become so polarized.

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Italy, one of the first severely touched countries, just got it's heaviest death toll over a period of 24h yet - 474 dead.


Well, I think that the counts are just starting to "catch up," so to speak. From what I understand, the infection rate is a lot more important to understanding the spread than the death toll. (not that it's unimportant)


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:48 am 


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In my country you have the worst possible combination. The virus killing hundreds a day and in power a president who is a combination of Hitler, Mussolini and Bozo the clown supported by many aggressive people, ignorant people and religious fundamentalists. The streets are crowded with people who act as if the virus does not exist, Brazil will turn to hell in the coming weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:59 am 


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@vol.2 I was speaking of the US govt here obviously, and not the citizens.

and yes I know that death comes couple weeks later than infections. so the curves sometime don't match (infection rate could be going down and death toll going up). But that's what I meant by ''we're still in the thick of it'' : we're nowhere near as seeing something close to what the death toll will be, we're probably halfway

vol.2 wrote:
the current US administration is making it really easy for the CPC to look sane in this situation.

for sure
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:18 pm 


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third_strike wrote:
In my country you have the worst possible combination. The virus killing hundreds a day and in power a president who is a combination of Hitler, Mussolini and Bozo the clown supported by many aggressive people, ignorant people and religious fundamentalists. The streets are crowded with people who act as if the virus does not exist, Brazil will turn to hell in the coming weeks.


Stay safe, buddy.
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:22 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
@vol.2 I was speaking of the US govt here obviously, and not the citizens.

I was reacting more to the video. Even if the administration was the target, it was ambiguous enough to blame "the US." I question that choice. Although, it may be better to keep specific people out of it as not to encourage the ego of certain "leaders." One way or the other, they didn't put enough consideration into the focus of the narrative. Using the statue of liberty just kind of shits on all of us over here, and that will put up a wall to the message they are trying to get across.


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and yes I know that death comes couple weeks later than infections. so the curves sometime don't match

I was referring to inaccurate and slow reporting of deaths. On one hand, reporting of new cases (or at least new cases that require hospitalization) is becoming presumably becoming [slightly] more accurate because we have a better idea of diagnosis and are hypersensitive to it. On the other hand, bodies are piling up in trucks outside hospitals who don't have time to spare on counting them. Death reporting is much less likely to be done correctly or done at all. It makes sense to me that we got a statistical death toll spike as Italy suddenly has a let-up in their crisis.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:38 pm 


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third_strike wrote:
In my country you have the worst possible combination. The virus killing hundreds a day and in power a president who is a combination of Hitler, Mussolini and Bozo the clown supported by many aggressive people, ignorant people and religious fundamentalists. The streets are crowded with people who act as if the virus does not exist, Brazil will turn to hell in the coming weeks.

man that's really hard news. Hang in there
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:51 pm 


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third_strike wrote:
In my country you have the worst possible combination. The virus killing hundreds a day and in power a president who is a combination of Hitler, Mussolini and Bozo the clown


[before i read further] bolsonaro?

Quote:
supported by many aggressive people, ignorant people and religious fundamentalists. The streets are crowded with people who act as if the virus does not exist, Brazil will turn to hell in the coming weeks.


ah, yes.

i'm really worried about one of my best friends who has lived there all her life - she's holing up and staying safe, but... i'm just really worried T__T especially with how bad the currency is against the US dollar right now as an indicator for the economy.
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:02 pm 


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third_strike wrote:
In my country you have the worst possible combination. The virus killing hundreds a day and in power a president who is a combination of Hitler, Mussolini and Bozo the clown supported by many aggressive people, ignorant people and religious fundamentalists. The streets are crowded with people who act as if the virus does not exist, Brazil will turn to hell in the coming weeks.


You live in America?
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:30 am 


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from what i understand, bolsonaro rose to power partly backed by (the u.s. of) america and is substantially more evil than trump
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:48 am 


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so UK now has the highest death toll in Europe. yikes.
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:51 am 


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Blinge wrote:
so UK now has the highest death toll in Europe. yikes.

You have to see the absolute numbers per capita, otherwise they don't mean much. Few examples (source: Wikipedia):

(accum. deaths attributed to COVID-19 as of today vs. total population)
Belgium: 8339 / 11 500 000 = 0.72513‰
Spain: 25857 / 47 000 000 = 0.55015‰
Italy: 29315 / 60 300 000 = 0.48615‰
UK: 29427 / 68 000 000 = 0.43275‰
France: 25531 / 67 000 000 = 0.38106‰
Netherlands: 5168 / 17 400 000 = 0.29701‰
Germany: 6993 / 83 100 000 = 0.08415‰

Depending on the criteria by which deaths are attributed to COVID-19 in each country, these numbers may be slightly distorted, but it's better than just looking at the absolute numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:51 pm 


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why?
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 1:12 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
why?


If I follow what OP is saying, the reason is population density.

i.e. 5000 total deaths in Luxembourg is far more significant than 5000 deaths in Germany.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 4:10 pm 


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I guess.
Still, the densely populated areas in the UK are essentially just big cities and urban sprawl.
Given UK had a 2 week headstart, at least, on Italy to get our shit together it's pretty bad man.
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 9:20 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
why?

Why?

Because in different countries, there are different numbers of people who can —ever— die of COVID-19, which you have to take into consideration when referring to numbers the elicitation of which stops at national borders. Imagine you have a basin with koi carp and are blindly trying to scoop them out of the water with a measly net. Once you use a larger net (read: larger population sample) you'll get more fish on average, but, other things being equal, that doesn't mean that there are suddenly more fish in the basin.

In other words, as vol.2 put it, let's say (to consider an extreme example), over the whole course of the epidemic, 10 000 people die of COVID-19 in a country X. If that country is the USA, that would, fortunately—while of course every life matters—be a relatively mild outcome (in reality, official COVID-19 deaths in the USA are already that times seven). If that country, however, were the Republic of Nauru, that would mean that almost the entire population would be wiped out. To continue our koi metaphor: with the same net, we get more fish on average, so something's really different here.

This has nothing to do with population density (or are the countries' total areas part of the abovementioned simple calculus?), also note that these per-country death figures are per-country death figures, and don't differentiate between urban sprawl and rural areas. Actually, when looking for the causes of these differences, apart from the current stage of the epidemic in each country and differences in reporting criteria, which are obvious factors, I suspect it'd be more worthwhile to take individual mobility and various other lifestyle/cultural/age distributional/economic/health systemic or, I daresay, political aspects into consideration instead.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 3:24 am 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
third_strike wrote:
In my country you have the worst possible combination. The virus killing hundreds a day and in power a president who is a combination of Hitler, Mussolini and Bozo the clown supported by many aggressive people, ignorant people and religious fundamentalists. The streets are crowded with people who act as if the virus does not exist, Brazil will turn to hell in the coming weeks.


You live in America?

No!
I live in a country where the president gives the following answer when asked about death numbers to be higher than in china: Who cares ?

Bizarro


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 9:53 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 9:41 pm 


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See, this is why I find it so hard to take people who traffic in hazy, unprovable conspiracy theories seriously: when someone in power is doing something unthinkable and/or inexcusably selfish that's causing massive harm, it's usually right out there in the open. Y'know, in case you somehow missed all the previous alarm bells. After all, what's the point of yeeaaahhh fuck yooouuu yeeaahhh if you don't get to rub it in everyone's face and dare them to do anything about it?

On a related note, the executioner's axe has been raised - no bonus points if you already know what "strengthen[ing] it for future generations" will inevitably involve.

EDIT: Oh, and speaking of items on the chopping block: again, shhhh!
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 9:54 pm 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
On a related note, the executioner's axe has been raised - no bonus points if you already know what "strengthen[ing] it for future generations" will inevitably involve.


That can be reversed. What I'm more concerned about are the federal judge appointees.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 10:22 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
What I'm more concerned about are the federal judge appointees.

That's actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about: the Senate defies Congress's attending physician to reconvene in the midst of a pandemic...but handling said pandemic is not on the agenda.

They're not even trying to hide their contempt for anyone urging them to take this shit seriously.
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 10:10 am 


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Blacksheep wrote:
Blinge wrote:
so UK now has the highest death toll in Europe. yikes.

You have to see the absolute numbers per capita, otherwise they don't mean much. Few examples (source: Wikipedia):

(accum. deaths attributed to COVID-19 as of today vs. total population)
Belgium: 8339 / 11 500 000 = 0.72513‰
Spain: 25857 / 47 000 000 = 0.55015‰
Italy: 29315 / 60 300 000 = 0.48615‰
UK: 29427 / 68 000 000 = 0.43275‰
France: 25531 / 67 000 000 = 0.38106‰
Netherlands: 5168 / 17 400 000 = 0.29701‰
Germany: 6993 / 83 100 000 = 0.08415‰

Depending on the criteria by which deaths are attributed to COVID-19 in each country, these numbers may be slightly distorted, but it's better than just looking at the absolute numbers.

Why is the west getting absolutely fucked compared to eastern/northern europe...except for Sweden for some absolutely unknown reason that no one can possibly explain?


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 2:34 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
Why is the west getting absolutely fucked compared to eastern/northern europe...except for Sweden for some absolutely unknown reason that no one can possibly explain?



That's a complex question. There are multiple stages of the infection, and the response (from both the people and the government) defines the outcome per municipality.

For starters, there were clearly established in-roads for the virus in certain countries before it was known, and it had a chance to spread while there was zero response. Presumably, the least effected countries had the least number of already infected people walking around. A lot of the testing is being done way after the fact.

The difference between the US and other countries with big numbers is the uneven response from the States (because each State operates like it's own little country in some respects) and the attitude of people to adopting government orders. And then there is the Federal Government. Just go to a reliable news outlet like Reuters and look at objective reporting of the US federal government response. The administration is more interested in forcing through it's own agenda than it is in combating the virus. For various reasons, there will be a mountain of criminal investigations and charges filed against the current administration in the coming years, and they are trying to install as many allies in the government now as they can (because federal judges sit for life) so that they have friends to overturn their convictions in the future. That's how you make a "get out of jail free card" in the US.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 3:00 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Bananamatic wrote:
Why is the west getting absolutely fucked compared to eastern/northern europe...except for Sweden for some absolutely unknown reason that no one can possibly explain?



That's a complex question. There are multiple stages of the infection, and the response (from both the people and the government) defines the outcome per municipality

It's a simple question with a simple answer - Slovakia has only 26 dead and 1457 infected and all they did was a hard shutdown once they had the first confirmed infections despite the EU trying to tell people otherwise...meanwhile germany was doing jack shit while already having dead people and the USA would rather have millions dead than give up their freedom

Here in Czech we first had soft restrictions in the first few days and once they realized that people don't really follow them, they just made them stricter...and unsurprisingly it worked, 10x less dead than Sweden despite having a similar population just by following common sense


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 3:23 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
It's a simple question with a simple answer - Slovakia has only 26 dead and 1457 infected and all they did was a hard shutdown once they had the first confirmed infections despite the EU trying to tell people otherwise...meanwhile germany was doing jack shit while already having dead people and the USA would rather have millions dead than give up their freedom

Here in Czech we first had soft restrictions in the first few days and once they realized that people don't really follow them, they just made them stricter...and unsurprisingly it worked, 10x less dead than Sweden despite having a similar population just by following common sense

interesting to know how it played out in Czech. Sweden was completely lax aboot it (no confinement at all IIRC?), so it's not surprising that they have a high death toll per capita. From what I read, Finland and Norway also have 10x less dead than Sweden, and have 2x less people

I tend to agree with your stance here : the answer to that question is not complex. However, the deconfinment will be complex (seems like there's not one clear definitive-best-way to deploy the deconfinment)
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 3:56 pm 


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You're staring down 1 in 4 unemployment or worse. It certainly is complicated.

Everything affects everything else. It isn't a video game.

You can't just shut down the world for months and months. Also, there are people that will literally starve or die from other illnesses in the austerity afterwards.

Frankly, your comfort and privilege is showing. It definitely is complicated.
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 3:58 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Bananamatic wrote:
It's a simple question with a simple answer - Slovakia has only 26 dead and 1457 infected and all they did was a hard shutdown once they had the first confirmed infections despite the EU trying to tell people otherwise...meanwhile germany was doing jack shit while already having dead people and the USA would rather have millions dead than give up their freedom

Here in Czech we first had soft restrictions in the first few days and once they realized that people don't really follow them, they just made them stricter...and unsurprisingly it worked, 10x less dead than Sweden despite having a similar population just by following common sense

interesting to know how it played out in Czech. Sweden was completely lax aboot it (no confinement at all IIRC?), so it's not surprising that they have a high death toll per capita. From what I read, Finland and Norway also have 10x less dead than Sweden, and have 2x less people

I tend to agree with your stance here : the answer to that question is not complex. However, the deconfinment will be complex (seems like there's not one clear definitive-best-way to deploy the deconfinment)


Here in Sweden they gone out with that people should listening to the advices. Feel sick stay at home, keep a social distance and do not travel around. It's more guidelines than laws. But that could change if people don't take responsibility.
But they have made changes, some schools closed down, and the workplaces that allow to work from home does that. We try to keep the pressure on the healthcare steady.
Norway, Denmark and Finland from my understanding closed down pretty quick, and sure they have few deaths, but as soon as they let go of the restrictions it's gonna be the same as here.
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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 4:39 pm 


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You can't just shut down the world for months and months. Also, there are people that will literally starve or die from other illnesses in the austerity afterwards.

You already have hundreds of thousands dead, at least a food shortage could teach people to stop overeating and buying copious amounts of food that they throw out afterwards

orange808 wrote:
Frankly, your comfort and privilege is showing. It definitely is complicated.

the privilege of making good decisions in life

z0mbie90 wrote:
Here in Sweden they gone out with that people should listening to the advices. Feel sick stay at home, keep a social distance and do not travel around. It's more guidelines than laws. But that could change if people don't take responsibility.

Is anyone really expecting people to be responsible?


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 in your part of the world
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 4:46 pm 


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z0mbie90 wrote:
Here in Sweden they gone out with that people should listening to the advices. Feel sick stay at home, keep a social distance and do not travel around. It's more guidelines than laws. But that could change if people don't take responsibility.
But they have made changes, some schools closed down, and the workplaces that allow to work from home does that. We try to keep the pressure on the healthcare steady.
Norway, Denmark and Finland from my understanding closed down pretty quick, and sure they have few deaths, but as soon as they let go of the restrictions it's gonna be the same as here.

Thanks for the update on the situation over there, I didn't know about the latest changes re: some schools closing down. appreciated

Here a period of hard confinment was a necessity, because the healthcare system couldn't have handled not having one : even with the hard confinment period, we had/have difficulty managing the deaths of the elderly in old folks homes. And I mean : several shitshows happening. We're already understaffed in that area and now even more so because a number of employees got sick or quit working there, so only half of the staff present (had to roll in the military and ask doctors to work as beneficiary attendants). It was disastrous with many deaths and lots of mishandled micro situations and ugly/sad/pathetic situations too. SO imagine if there had been no confinment at all and good number of people of all age groups got sick at the same time on top of that... total overload and anarchy.

So it was good that there was a period of hard confinment here (I believe you can't trust people), essential even. Having said that, we now need to slowly start thinking about deconfinment I believe (it has started verrrrrry slowly here). But that's just my take, somebody else will have a different opinion on how fast/how slowly to roll out the deconfinment (and some even still say ''keep the complete lockdown going'').
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Last edited by FinalBaton on Tue May 12, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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