MAME 0.216 -lowlatency flag

[Keade]

Those obsessed with input lag may be interested to learn that MAME 0.216 introduced a new "lowlatency" on/off parameter: https://docs.mamedev.org/commandline/co ... lowlatency (default is off).
Also see RB's comments on it https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comm ... 6/f8wj5ap/, https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comm ... 6/f8v9bfs/ ("input latency under 5 ms (1/200th of a second), down from 18-20 ms").

edit: original PR, for those interested in technical aspects https://github.com/mamedev/mame/pull/5901

[Xyga]

It's only for VRR/Gsync/FreeSync, MAME finally matching GroovyMAME in that field.

Doesn't change for normal setups. It is guaranteed to be massively misunderstood.

They've called it 'low latency' while they should have called it 'low latency vrr', so unnecessarily stupid.

[Keade]

Well, quoting the post I linked, "it's also lower for normal monitors, just not as much".
Also, the documentation is very clear about this https://docs.mamedev.org/commandline/co ... lowlatency
Forgive me, but the parameter name discussioin is nitpicking.

It is guaranteed to be massively misunderstood.

Then again, what isn't ?

[Xyga]

Not really, MAME always had +1 frame compared to groovy even without sync, the only thing that does is making them match on vsync.

But MAME still doesn't have frame_delay, which makes a huge difference.

I've been following this from BYOAC, basically it's a portion of what Groovy has been doing for years ported to MAME, and ported by Calamity himself.

If you have a normal setup, CRT or LCD, you're still bound to use frame_delay to reduce latency, unless you like tearing.
Nothing's changed, except for VRR owners (but it's still great! don't get me wrong)

PS: Vulkan could bring more interesting progress delay-wise, so this is maybe even bigger news.

[Keade]

Nothing's changed, except for VRR owners (but it's still great! don't get me wrong)

No worries, I don't.
I don't know much about GroovyMAME (though it is widely discussed in the forums), so it is useful mentionning it.
I have a 144Hz VRR display and tested some games with and without that setting, but obviously this felt impossible to me to really confirm there was a difference just by playing (I think I tried and could "feel" one more frame of lag, but that was using an simple ABX test designed specially for that, with an instant switch, which makes it much easier).

[Xyga]

Careful you don't configure Groovy the same way you do baseline MAME.

Here's the real news announcement, if you listen only to mamedev confusin is unevitable;

how to included
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... msg1701937

[Keade]

Ah, great This gives much more information than the resources I linked to, and also includes link to the original PR: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/pull/5901

[Xyga]

Goes without saying but if one is using a VRR setup with baseline MAME 0.216 and prefer setting mame.ini, create the latter and edit;
- turn the new lowlatency option on
- but also make sure every sync-related option is off (syncrefresh, waitvsync, triplebuffer: all off)

[Mark_MSX]

My video on this feature, seems to work very well

https://youtu.be/mjAoH_iCCq4

[Xyga]

[WelshMegalodon]

Not going to lie, I've been kind of wary of this guy ever since his Perikles video and that one about the Switch as a shooter machine. And the ShmupArch one. There's got to be a less obnoxious and tactful way to further your gamer YouTuber career.

[Gus]

Really, people are giving Mark shit for making a video testing/demonstrating the thing this topic is about?

[mycophobia]

yeah I don't really understand the hate

[Mark_MSX]

I agree with Xyga. Mark is clearly crossing the line. He is dangerous! I'm offended. Mark needs to understand how sacred topics like this are. Maybe someday Mark will learn his place and remember to ask for Xyga's approval before posting a video. That way Xyga will be prepared for when he sends personal messages to Mark's subscribers about how awful Mark is.

[6t8k]

Wow - at least pose arguments as to what you're finding fault with. If you've done that already elsewhere and think there's nothing to add, link to it.

[third_strike]

My video on this feature, seems to work very well

https://youtu.be/mjAoH_iCCq4

you should write it since there is peoples which can't understand english spoken just like me. I would know about your findings.

[6t8k]

^ YouTube automatically generates subtitles/captions that are pretty accurate. You can display them by clicking on the "CC" button which is highlighted below:

[WelshMegalodon]

Really, people are giving Mark shit for making a video testing/demonstrating the thing this topic is about?

yeah I don't really understand the hate

Well, for starters, the title of the video couldn't be a better example of shameless, misleading clickbait. It fails to mention the most important part of the -lowlatency feature, which is that it's only a big deal for people with VRR monitors. Mentioning ShmupMAME, a project that operates on an entirely different of assumptions, makes it even more misleading because the two are hardly competing products. Nobody with a VRR monitor is going to need to bother with a hacky solution like ShmupMAME.

Yes, Mark does explain that it is "FreeSync/G-Sync support" at the beginning of the video, but first impressions are still quite poor.

On an unrelated note:
- Typing "mame64.exe -cc" isn't something so tedious or repetitive that anyone would even want to bother writing a batch script for it. It doesn't need to be presented that way, and I find it strange that Mark would do so in a video he himself claims is aimed at those unfamiliar with emulation.
- Mark talks about MAME getting rapid updates as if MAME hasn't had numbered releases at a predictable rate for several years and made a point of hosting binaries, source code, and changelogs for those old releases on their own website. Why present it this way? Why not just say "this applies to the most recent release of MAME at the time of this writing, aka MAME 0.217"? Does he think people are too stupid to look for a number after the name of the program?
- RetroArch is not an emulator.

[Xyga]

MAME always worked with VRR, nothing's new, and the low latency thing isn't even a feature, it's kind of a fix, ported from GroovyMAME which has had that for over a decade, it was done by Calamity himself.
It puts bseline MAME on an even ground with Groovy when using VRR, that's all there is to understand about it.
The 'feature' was mis-named, mis-explained, and of course many people would misunderstand.

Also his inability to understand Groovy and consequently telling wrong, fake shit about it then use the opportunity to promote his stupid preconfigured RetroArch is really slutty yeah, but that's expected from him as from the beginning when he joined the shmups community his goal has been to become an influencer and divert some of the demographics to his personal media ring.

In any case I've already dedicated tons of time patiently explaining things to those idiots, with much care and very politely at the beginning, then when I realized they didn't give any fucks or that it was all beyond them and they'd rather be dicks than admit it, also that Mark blanked my inputs because whatever the case he needed to promote his ridiculous "sync-less preconfigured RA for people who cant even" and promote himself as "the lag specialist guy", I've started to treat those people like they deserve to be.

There's only one thing I agree with him now, right, people please don't use GroovyMAME.
Unless you understand how it works, how input/display/emulation delay works, the different lag mitigation methods and what they actually do, and you are ready to at least comply to the minimum requirements whether in hardware and reading/learning + getting support.
If you can't be arsed then by all means skip Groovy nd just buy a VRR setup, there's nothing better, nd don't fucking waste time with the worst, stupidiest solutions that are ShmupMAME and ShmupArch.
You can simply use baseline MAME for VRR like you always could but now without that 1 frame penalty, just turn off every sync setting, and mind that displays with a VRR range that stops at 60Hz (like many 4K) my disable VRR when the source's rate is very close, so either get a display that does VRR beyond 60, or overclock your desktop to something like 61,62,63Hz if you can.

[Bananamatic]

how much of my own shit do i need to huff before VRR setups grow on trees and cost nothing and is the brain damage reversible?

[Xyga]

Just keep whining some more years that things are too expensive, or too hard to set up, stuff too long to read, and echoing on shitscords convenient narratives against whoever within the niche's little world you believe is to blame for all the things that butthurt you. That'll surely help get you guys get the nice things you actually want, some day never.

[Gus]

I thought the things with testing out the lowlatency flag on SH3 games was really interesting information and something that hasn't been done before AFAIK. As a Futari player, it is absolutely important to know how many frames of lag are in the MAME version on optimal settings, as lagginess has been a big sticking point for me in the past when recommending the game to other people.

I do have to question why people who seemingly care far more about RPG's than shmups would shit on a guy over this subject of low latency setups and not presenting information in the exact way you want. If you want to know why people are leaving the forum, just take a look in the mirror. It's a bit like if you joined some chess club years ago and now find almost everyone there is now huge into mobile gacha games and eager to shit on anyone who wants to actually talk chess. All the while, those same gacha gamers throw a tantrum when called out on it and swear up and down that they're not being toxic to the few remaining chess fans. I think any sensible person would leave that old chess club and start a new one. Of course, it would be optimal to just stay in your old chess club and a part of you still wants things to improve, otherwise you wouldn't be occasionally checking back in and having a laugh at how shitty things have gotten. But it is what it is.

[WelshMegalodon]

Isn't MAME's blitter delay still wrong for SH3-based games anyway? What's the point?

[KAI]

It is, so it's kinda useless to debate how many frames of input lag have all the non-YGW CV1000 games. Can be interesting, but useless anyways.

[Gus]

Isn't MAME's blitter delay still wrong for SH3-based games anyway? What's the point?

Because there's people out there who just want to demo the games or go for lower level clears, slowdown be damned? Because it would be almost as bad having accurate slowdown but for the games to still have crippling input lag? I'm not seeing how it's so hard to imagine there being people out there who can appreciate having it on record that the games are now down to manageable levels of input lag. Nice job moving the goalposts, by the way.

[WelshMegalodon]

Well, moving goalposts isn't a very nice thing to do, so let me remedy that by admitting that yes, if Mark did demonstrate the reduction in lag for normal setups in an accessible way (noticeable lag reduction is a real improvement, even if Mark didn't use the best example to demonstrate it), the video isn't completely without merit. But if what Xyga says is true and he is half-assing his research and giving out misleading statements in order to further his brand, then I can't say I feel comfortable supporting his efforts. If he wants to actually be known as a lag specialist guy instead of some mediocre influencer wannabe with a webcam and an awful voice, he should make sure he knows what he is talking about when discussing GroovyMAME, especially since GroovyMAME is where this low latency feature came from in the first place.

[Bananamatic]

Just keep whining some more years that things are too expensive, or too hard to set up

the only one whining here is you that people don't care about the same useless shit as you do
it's not "too expensive" or "too hard to set up", people simply don't give a rat's ass about your "accurate emulation" that doesn't improve gameplay in any way yet you keep imposing it on people for no reason and when people tell you the benefits don't outweigh the costs for them, you attack them for no reason and ruin every thread with it

this entire forum is so far gone that Gus of all people is now the voice of reason, let that sink in

[Frenetic]

Lots of good discussion, but it’s kind of curdling now. Please keep on topic and post without degenerating into personal attacks.

Thank you,
Frenetic
Forum Moderator

[Bassa-Bassa]

Isn't MAME's blitter delay still wrong for SH3-based games anyway? What's the point?

It is, so it's kinda useless to debate how many frames of input lag have all the non-YGW CV1000 games. Can be interesting, but useless anyways.

I thought there's life beyond CV1k games, but what do you mean by 'wrong'? It's a configurable option. It hasn't been prooved that, with proper settings, an essentially perfect slowdown emulation can't be achieved, has it? (honest question) Supposedly, some games have already good enough settings posted in this forum ('good enough' as in 'much better than home ports'), and, if the people weren't so misled regarding Mame/Groovymame/proper setups (just to name one: believing that they should stick with old Mame versions), I'm sure a thread would already exist here in this forum where they would be sharing, compiling and discussing blitter/CPU % settings per game. It's a thing which really needs a community effort, but there's potential to get very good results. Mame devs aren't fixing this, you know.



About the video, stating that the new option adds free sync/g sync support to Mame and that it cuts off a frame of lag instead of explaining that the option is actually designed for these (already supported!) monitors is not the best way of beginning a tutorial about the subject, I'm sorry. If I were to learn about it, I'd look for someone more knowledgable or who at least seems to have made proper research.



Happy NY.

[orange808]

I can't use VRR with a Sony OLED rolling scan pro monitor. So, what's the point? Taking away rolling scan doesn't fix things. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

VRR isn't a solution for emulation.

You're stuck with VRR persistence blur; that is wrong and will always be wrong. It smears and looks wrong. Find an arcade and play your favorite games. The motion doesn't smear. Doesn't matter if persistence blur not "really blur". I see blur. Everyone sees blur.

Blur sucks. VRR guarantees we will never be able to fight motion blur at 50-60Hz. (They already tried a VRR and BFI monitor. It was awful at 60Hz.)