shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:20 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolete
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:21 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 238
It used to be that the arcade scene was the place for nail biting gameplay and innovation, but after a solid decade of waiting for anything good to come out I've doubled back and started to take a long hard look at all the games we have at home that tell me why arcades will never have any chance of making a real comeback.



- Dead Island / Dying Light

Zombie games don't get much representation outside of House of the dead, or that version of Left 4 Dead in Japan, but how often do you get one that allows you to beat them up and dismember them in first person? Also with DL, night time really proves you have to be running for you life as all the enemies will stop at nothing to chase you down until they have you on their dinner tray.

- Monster Hunter (Series)

Somewhat similar to Dragon's Dogma, but you focus on locating and slaying gigantic creatures for sport. It's a shame this could have used the concept for at least one version in the arcades with multiplayer support. They have Dissidia, so what's gives?

- Mortal Kombat (Reboot trilogy)

The scene just hasn't been the same since Boon and Co took their business to consoles, but after MKvDC and a new parent company took over, the series has been back in fine form and pulling no punches on the violence. It's really a shame when you think about how an arcade release could have been that spark of a revival for the industry, but fighting fans know where they want to play and it sucks to keep feeding quarters.

- SoulCalibur VI

Perhaps this one is also questionable as it's another franchise that has been "consolized". The latest release follows the usual DLC season pass BS, but the gameplay has been overhauled a bit from it's online-only concept (which was shut down not too long ago) and you're really able to rake out the combos style. Sadly like MK, I could just about care less to see it as a credit feeder.

- Nier Automata

Ok so this one is a bit of a stretch, but let's look into this. Back then when DMC first released I was looking to this as an advancement on the beat-em-up genre involving weapon use and platforming as a priority. It worked great in a number of titles (i.e. Ninja Gaiden), but I couldn't help feeling it's restrictions and wanted to see some sense of freedom from the way you find yourself limited in your actios. Nier really hit that mark because it follows a style that allows you to focus on endless combos, but also a dash/evade system that becomes the prime benchmark in making the game work, allowing you to break from your offense at nearly any point, counter and continue at will instead of leaving you locked in to your current animations. It feels like it successfully married the formula with classic platform games back in the 80's and I'd love to see something of this adapted in a later game should Square/Enix want to do another. There's also some shmup bullet hell involved, but that's easily migrated and we know better stuff.

- Injustice (Series)

Self explanatory ~Nelson *Ha, Ha! and exactly the reason why arcades in the states suck. Does D & B's have no shame? Apparently not considering what they've turned the industry into and made it an entertainment for the lowest common denominator. The real thing makes a joke of this and should have been given an official release!

- Dragon's Crown

Perhaps this is the greatest gift to every Golden Axe and Capcom D&D fan out there. The gameplay also controls somewhat like a Treasure game if you're familiar with those.

- Bloodrayne Betrayal

I had a lot of reservations for this as a 2D platformer, but this will surprise you in knowing that this and Nier Automata have gameplay that's in many ways identical to each other, plus this game is very challenging to boot!

- DOOM

You already know what this is. It's too HARDCORE!!


So that's the small list for anything with the type of gameplay you don't see in arcades anymore. I'll be looking forward to hearing of others out there if you have anything you'd like to suggest and recommend. It's a shame real gaming in the industry is mostly dead, but I would like to start seeing a focus on other gaming communities step forward on addressing this and getting the best games to fill this gap listed.














Spoiler: show
* This post has not been approved by the American Amusement Machine Association
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 14278
Location: Chicago
Just go to a Dave and Buster's and look around. Well over half are phone games put on huge screens.
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
New PowerPuff Girls. They all have evil pornstart eyelashes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:36 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 238
Yeah I'll be getting a D&B within the end of the year or so. I'd much rather have a Round 1, but they're going the redemption route as well from what I've been hearing lately.
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:08 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 3737
Location: Southern Ontario
There's a flaw in your thesis though; it sounds like you're suggesting arcades will necessarily be dead due to the high quality of available console games. But arcades were popular even when they were regarded in North America as "quarter munchers" and remain popular overseas in Japan and so forth. I think there's a huge social element to the arcade, one that's stronger in Asian arcades than it is currently in North America (probably in part due to geographic, Japan is smaller and more dense relatively speaking).

There's also some stuff that plays much better on specific hardware that is difficult to fit in a home due to size or price that ends up feeling better in an arcade, namely lightgun and racing games, but this can also apply to rhythm games such as DDR or Pop 'n Music. And pinball tables obviously apply here too! There's no doubt that console friendly game genres such as MMORPGs are hugely popular in Japan, but Game Centers are still pretty significant and I'm sure there's plenty of people who play console games that still go out and hang out at Game Centers. Going out to an arcade isn't just about the games after all but the social experience of hanging out with other gamers. VS fighting games are also much better played live than netplay.

If the arcade is small but has a well-curated selection of high quality games that are definitely not quarter munchers, and offers modern conveniences such as rapid fire (for older shmups to alleviate button mashing) or Button 1+2 wired to its own button (for beat em ups and other games that have a desperation move when you press 1 and 2 together but that have a relatively short input window to make sure it registers, applies to some Konami games like Moo Mesa) I don't see why it can't retain a social following. It's still obviously harder to justify spending a lot of money regularly in an arcade when home gaming is so affordable nowadays, but updates to pricing structures (where you spend a flat fee to play all day on free play machines as opposed to per-credit pricing) also help to improve the arcade experience for players and encourage them to return.
_________________
YouTube VideosTwitch
1CCsRestart Syndrome scores


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:17 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Jul 2017
Posts: 1380
Location: Eating the Rich
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
There's a flaw in your thesis though; it sounds like you're suggesting arcades will necessarily be dead due to the high quality of available console games. But arcades were popular even when they were regarded in North America as "quarter munchers" and remain popular overseas in Japan and so forth. I think there's a huge social element to the arcade, one that's stronger in Asian arcades than it is currently in North America (probably in part due to geographic, Japan is smaller and more dense relatively speaking).

There's also some stuff that plays much better on specific hardware that is difficult to fit in a home due to size or price that ends up feeling better in an arcade, namely lightgun and racing games, but this can also apply to rhythm games such as DDR or Pop 'n Music. And pinball tables obviously apply here too! There's no doubt that console friendly game genres such as MMORPGs are hugely popular in Japan, but Game Centers are still pretty significant and I'm sure there's plenty of people who play console games that still go out and hang out at Game Centers. Going out to an arcade isn't just about the games after all but the social experience of hanging out with other gamers. VS fighting games are also much better played live than netplay.


I very much miss this. I grew up and made friends at the arcade.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:16 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 198
Location: The Netherlands
For me the best current arcade games are the “lightgun” and railshooters like halo fireteam raven or star wars battle pod. Ps2 was good for console lightgun games, seems like they died with the crt. Had a few on the wii but aiming was pretty crap on that.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:14 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 238
@ BareKnuckleRoo

I do agree with much of what you posted, but to your response that's not my point.

I've had fun with the scene since the early 80's all the way from pac-man and space invaders to see when there were new innovations in graphics and different types of play styles. When I made that list of games more specifically for the discussion, I did it as a reference of comparison to what has been churning out in this past decade and to be honest I'm fairly disappointed at best.

The main reason for this is perhaps back in the 90's when 3D polygon graphics were starting to become a thing, there were so many different games we were introduced to that was vastly different from one another and pushed their hardware capabilities to the limits to create an experience like nothing else. It was a shame this ended once the mid 00's hit and japan decided none of us outside their territories deserve to enjoy it anymore. When there was a push to bring back the industry during this decade, many games have been re-trends of what we've had before, whether it was a shmup, another SNK or something, something Arc Sytem Works. Maybe another shooter with that spray hose configuration (yuck), but I haven't seen anything overall that shows what's so great about it anymore. Sure Japan has a rare few things like Gunslinger Stratos and Magician's Dead, but honestly the industry has really stepped back in it's sense of development when the best was clearly before the turn of the century.

I play a number of these console games because they somehow continue that experience which has been missing for a long time now. Perhaps two of my favorites are Gunvalkyrie and Panzer Dragoon Orta, because there's really nothing quite like them aside from perhaps maybe Starfox? Of course when I decided to mention Nier Automata and DOOM, I mean seriously... can't anybody in the industry take on look at them and say they'd like to do something about competing against that?

This is the major turn off of arcades because they're either something horrendously gimmicky or relying too much on nostalgia for their sake they attract customers and when you have these other big game developers who charge between $7-14k per setup, how are you supposed to bring innovation to the table without some business standard being a cut off? How much do you think Killer Queen really costs based on parts and software alone? Knowing Raw Thrills, jack up the price making it only available in sets of two and you don't get the locations that are more common place to other titles. Also I found it really sad when Nex Machinima was scrapped as they had this really killer design for their set and the twin sticks looked something fierce. We really do live in a casual market now and it pains me I have to always look elsewhere for something unique.

Reboot 90's era with today's graphics.... yeah I think that would be some real nirvana right there. It's just that today nobody who wants to be a developer has a real clue for some reason.


Btw if you really want to do some comparisons, look at system 16's list for much of the early stuff and ArcadeHeroes for the more current.
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:39 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 632
The graphics on home consoles caught up to (and overtook) the arcades in the PS2/PS3 generation but home consoles are still way behind on the controls.

The improvement in graphics has done little to make games more fun for me. The arcades used to be a key driver for innovation in how we interface with games. Now that arcades are dying out, they seem to have stopped innovating in the home market.

Arcades have awesome and accurate recoil guns, realistic cockpits with moving seats and blower motors etc and motorcycle games are played on full-size motor-bike controllers. Flight games have realistic flight yokes etc.

The PS4 is just another black box with a joypad. It has slightly nicer graphics but it's a step backwards on the controls. The PS5 looks like it will be yet another black box with slightly nicer graphics.

I am far more excited to play Mario Kart DX arcade via Teknoparrot than I am about the PS4 or PS5.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:37 am 


User avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 1981
Location: polar malortex, illinois
There's a homebrew game at my local arcade called VEC9 (http://vec9.com/) which is a vector game where you play a Russian pilot on a mission to bomb American cities. The entire control panel looks like a piece of Soviet tech, with plane-style handles and lights flashing everywhere. It's not the best game in the world, but it's incredibly thematic and cool. That kind of ingenious fusion of hardware and software is something that console distribution can't replicate, because you need mass production to create peripherals and you need approval from the console manufacturer to get distribution.

PC games can sort of do this—people are a lot more willing to experiment with DIY tech in that space and there are no barriers to distribution—but you're still not going to recreate the arcade experience.

Even outside of really custom/weird hardware and controls, there are experiences that are just better in the arcade. Some really successful indie games like Nidhogg and Killer Queen started as arcade games and are arguably best experienced there. Indie arcades are a great breeding ground for innovative shit that can't happen in a vacuum. Babycastles (https://babycastles.com/) in NYC is one of the best examples.
_________________
Image
We here shall not rest until we have made a drawing-room of your shaft, and if you do not all finally go down to your doom in patent-leather shoes, then you shall not go at all.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:33 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 238
@ Classicgamer

On the subject of controls, I always admire the setups you see on many driving games or when you get something very specific going on (like twin stick and triggers). Making this comparison on gamepads is a bit apples and oranges because what you play on a control panel always feels like real playing equipment compared to some dinky little gamepad. I like arcade sticks at home, but other methods are sometimes lacking, so there's no real comparison.

My big thing however on regardless of the way pads feel, I play some games that get pretty complicated for simple use and make full requirements of both the face controls and both analog sticks -AT THE SAME TIME-, which is where I sometimes wonder how to make any real comparison on any of this. Some of the stuff I started doing with Dragon's Dogma a few years back was like a wake up call in control awareness, then Nier gave me configuration settings that allow both 3rd person shooter and 3D beat-em-up to be both done together and I don't know how to replicate that in an arcade setting. Best thing I can think of is making a twin stick board that you can play something like Gunvalkyrie for doing multi-lock on and air dancing, but there's no way you can create combination elements like what I just mentioned. It has to be simple, but that's why I fear gameplay in arcades has hit it's limitations. Besides most people are trying to capitalize on things we did before, whether it's fighting games or shmups and that odd cab that has something retro-indie. Japan had some cool stuff on those surface style games you could play your cards on, but we're never going to enjoy that experience and the few other things that branch out into 3D with elaborate control schemes in somewhat lacking. If I could start to see things that were as crazy and better then what I play in the games I listed on my original post, that would be great, because it would show that the industry is trying to make some real progress again, instead it's actually regressed quite a bit. Re-trends because it's the business model that matters more then being a new thing.

I still see new stuff that I only get to experience at home and it almost has me convinced I want to do a "Not available in arcades" series of videos on Youtube. I should start off Contra 3 just to rub it in a little. :P

@ it290

I like the concept that you can use real control tech to play a game in any simulation type setting, but the concept for the game makes me feel ill on what it's aiming for. (I live there!) Probably the only time anyone had something like that at home was for Steel Battletron and I'm pretty sorry that's something I missed out on. I don't even want to bother looking at ebay right now.

I can only say that having a social scene really depends on how well things are set up and in the right location. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury and it's sorely missed. I did want to see Killer Queen reach a broader audience, but I think due to being with Raw Thrills both helped and limited it's presence from spreading to other locations, such at smaller bars and other amusement locations. The home version will have an impact and adapt a different audience, but the core group that played it originally will no doubt continue enjoying it where it originated.

When it comes to the indie scene, there's still a number of new things coming out, but you still have to wade through all the junk that remains on phone apps. I know Geomitry Wars 3 was out for awhile and Jeff Minter released Tempest 4000 more recently. I'll have to look into those when I get time.
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:36 am 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 632
We can make excuses for current home game makers all we want but none of them are true. It's just laziness and a lack of imagination that holds them back.

I make a lot of my own arcade peripherals and it's rarely as difficult or expensive as people seem to think. It's just pots, motors and solenoids under the hood.

People said it would be too expensive to make arcade quality recoil guns but a number of 3rd parties brought out solenoid guns at consumer friendly prices in the PS1 generation.

People are a lot more willing now to invest in expensive peripherals if the game support is there. Even Best Buy sells $400 racing wheels and $1000+ VR set ups.

Gaming was on the right track for a while but without a steady stream of arcade ports, they seem to have lost any motivation to bring innovative controls to the home.

At least we have Teknoparrot. I love Mario Kart DX arcade and it works perfectly on my laptop with my force feedback wheel. I'm currently setting up the House of the Dead 4 and Rambo arcade games in Teknoparrot to work with my Namco light guns. It's gaming heaven and a thousand times more interesting to me than anything on the PS4.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Current gen games that prove today's arcades are obsolet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:46 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 238
Having the know how is a real asset if you want to make your own setup. Considering that good arcades are a rarity to most areas in my state, the only alternative is to plan a good design for you cabinet and put the appropriate titles on. I've always wanted something that uses the showcase style, but modern and capable of doing more then any average cabinet is typically capable of (Animated marquee and tate supported) If I can get myself everything I need for such a project, hopefully I'll be able to play Dragon's Crown in the correct manner it was supposed to be, baring some brain storming over making working analog controls work with the layout.

I don't think that YourMKArcadeSource would be a member on this forum, but have you seen what he did to the Mortal Kombat reboot when he wanted a few to join his collection of Midway cabs?
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Rock Man and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group