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 Post subject: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:35 pm 


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What the fuck am I doing with my life.

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Sumez, Baton and I briefely discussed Egoraptor's 'Sequilitis' video in which he slams Ocarina of Time with various criticisms. https://youtu.be/XOC3vixnj_0
Sumez wrote:
As far as I remember, I agree with most of the Zelda one. At least I'd say you can't really argue that it's very much on point, even if you disagree with the conclusion. If we have a Zelda thread somewhere, I'd love to hear your rebuttal.

.. I assume you meant that you can't argue against it being on point. Little quirk of English there.

Well here is my rebuttal:
I’m going to do the best I can to avoid the obnoxious insertions of ‘humour’ into the video and try and engage it on its points, which apparently hold some credulity across the internet and even on this hallowed chumpsfarm of fellow sperglords.

Spoiler: show
Caveat 1: I’m enjoying writing this.
Caveat 2: I didn’t think there would be so much. The soul of wit can fuck off; the more I watch the video, which is to say, I haven’t made it to the end since it was first uploaded, the more I have to write about.
Caveat 3: I don’t care to fight over which game is better, my issue is with Hanson’s points. ALttP is a magical game, as Finalbaton says. I’ll refer to it as Z3 hereafter.


An overarching problem with the whole video is that all Egoraptor’s claims are presented as objective facts, most of them are not, and are a great source of what t-t-triggers me.
Yes, I understand saying “X IS Y” is a lot punchier than saying “In my opinion X is Y.” Pre-amble over.

I will be timestamping his video where I want to talk about it.

Part 1: Da Real Zeldo.

0:00 – 0:35 In which Egoraptor pre-emptively portrays any counterargument to his video as troglodyte ramblings.
Ironically the caricature of his detractors looks more like Hanson than his animated avatar in this video ololol. I’m meeting the video on its own petty level, don’t judge.

0:35 – 1:20 - Empty waffle. Claims you don’t know who Link even was in zeldo 1/ just an adventurer. Nope, exposition was often done in game manuals back then. Though I suspect reading something may be above raptor’s intellectual pedigree.

The argument that all Zelda gameplay is defined by Zeldo 1. “THAT’S ZELDA.” Heavy implication that all sequels must follow these precedents or they aren’t the real Zelda.
This premise is flawed; as Zelda 2 departs from the original formula, and the 3rd game also does not follow the same boundless exploration as #1. Hanson’s definition of the real Zelda isn’t followed by the games themselves or Nintendo, so the definition cannot stand.

1:20 – 1:28 - “..and whether or not Zelda is what it is now..”
Hanson makes a nonsensical assertion that despite the series not following his definition, this self-same definition is what led to the series success and monumental sales. C’mon guys, this is garbage.

1:47 – 1:54 - Despite claiming that the adventurer has no identity in Zeldo 1, after apparently missing the manual + story, Hanson then shows images from the manual of Zeldo 3 to demonstrate “Changes” to the game’s story. Asserts that Link is named here and given a purpose for the first time. Again, rubbish.

1:54 - 2:39 – Recap ramble of Z3. Okay. Dislikes being told what to do in an explorable overworld. Okay, I don’t care to argue this point either way.
**
I’m getting bogged down in little details, so I’m going to skip ahead to the actual Ocarina criticisms.

Part 2 – Waiting Targets.

7:00 – 7:18.

Hanson claims Z-targeting splits the game into two distinct halves; exploration and combat. Implies that it would’ve been better to have a ‘whole game’ based on the combat. So let’s follow that to its logical conclusion. Can you imagine a game based entirely on OoT’s combat? What would that be exactly, per his definition? Always being locked on? Nothing but combat? I’m sure that would’ve been MUCH better than the game we got..

As for the two halves; this is more of a subjective point than you might think. My child mind adapted to both situations on the fly with ease. There isn’t a great disconnect in my opinion but hey, subjectivity and all that.

Hanson misses out first person aiming when talking about fighting bats, something which isn’t particularly hard but admittedly may take slightly more getting used to than walking up and wildly slashing ala Zelda3

7:31- 7:40 - In Z3 ‘there were sections where you had to fight off enemies and explore the room simultaneously.’

This comparison between games is both flawed and unfair. Z3 does not have rooms where you have to fight enemies and simultaneously explore.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I can’t think of any examples where these two things were linked in Z3. Surely you’d walk into a room and fight the enemies first, either for self-preservation or to get items, or because fighting them may lead to progress. How is that any different than exploration and combat being split from each other?
Unless you define exploration as being able to see everything in the room immediately upon entering thanks to the top down view showing you everything at a glance. This doesn’t account for scrolling rooms however; if you’re moving far enough to scroll the screen and see what else is there you are not engaged in combat, Link cannot move and slash as far as I’m aware.

7:39 – ‘It was much easier to manage it all’

Easier I think, is the operative word here. More on that later.

Hanson then proceeds to show a little clip of him being hit from above that does not illustrate anything to do with the Z-targeting point he was just making. It might’ve been useful to showcase an annoyance of transitioning to 3D, but alas, it’s basically a non-sequitur in his video.

7:47 – 7:56 - Bats aren’t fun to kill anymore. Subjective but whatever.

Bats may have been a ‘throwaway’ enemy in Z3, but other enemies in OoT step into the goomba role instead. Their role in OoT is to provide a 3D combat challenge from the air, giving the player something to aim at, literally. One could argue that the choices given to player of whether to snipe them from afar, or get closer in order to Z-target, or even closer to target and vertical slash with a sword are more interesting choices than Z3’s walk up mash sword approach. It’s also quite easy to imagine an OoT that lacked such enemies being slammed for not taking advantage of the opportunities afforded by the new 3D space.

8:23 – 8:40 - ‘The game’s idea of difficulty is waiting’

Say whatever you want about OoT’s combat and the points Hanson goes on to make, but this is a stupid comment. Having a point in which you’re looking for an opening to counter-attack is not an attempt to make ‘difficulty.’ It’s a fatuous statement aimed at making his points easier to argue and to just yell that same platitude. But meh, I can’t say it’s not snappy.

‘Every enemy has a period where they just stand around and do fucking nothing.’

It’s not every enemy. hurr exaggeration is funny hurr.

Why is Link just standing there pointing a hookshot at a Stalfos? Who points a hookshot at a Stalfos??

Okay, let’s go through the enemies he mentions needing to wait for.
Spoiler: show
Deku Scrubs – How is there waiting time when it comes to fighting Deku Scrubs!?

Their actions are based on proximity, not time. They fire with reasonable frequency, allowing you to deflect their shots back at them if you’re far enough away, which is to say, not far at all. Or you can straight up shoot them as soon as they’re above ground, no waiting. This is not evidence to back up his point. Hanson either doesn’t know what he’s talking about or he’s being intentionally misleading here, the man’s a charlatan.

Stalfos – Strongest example. However, we like games that reward experimentation, don’t we? Who wants to stand there pointing a hookshot at them like a fucking muppet, I certainly don’t. Deku nuts actually stun them long enough for you to get a hit in, like a jump slash! Think of it like throwing a boomerang to stun an enemy before slashy time in Z3.
Bash on their shield to provoke a response. The Biggoron sword annihilates them, they can barely block the stab attack. I can't remember if this last one works, but Try rolling, try getting around to their blindside.

‘Lizardmen’ – Really? Maybe when they fight as a duo and one retreats, you have to wait for the other one to join the battle, I guess that’s annoying.
So what’s the waiting for Lizalfos: They yelp, then they yelp and swing. It takes up barely any time at all, we’re talking a few seconds here. You block, then counterattack. I remember loving that relatively simple tactical addition into the games’ combat as a kid. I think it’s relevant to point out these games aren’t aimed at hardcore action gamers.
Anyway that’s just the prescribed method of fighting them, you don’t have to do it this way. You don’t have to wait, you can just attack them, you might take a hit to land one, but at least there’s no painful 3 seconds of waiting. Also, a less facetious example: Deku nuts stun them and allow you to land a hit.

Skulltulas – The only good example so far, but only until Link gets the Hookshot. Yes, as a child you have to wait for them to turn round and expose their back for a hit. Whether or not you find this annoying is subjective. Again, Hanson doesn’t know the meaning of the word. Personally if I were to replay the game for the 7th or 8th time I would find this annoying, yes.

It’s advisable to manage distance well enough to hit them with a jump slash for a 1hit kill rather than waiting for them to turn around twice. Spacing this is slightly harder as you’ll be hit out of the air if you’re too close. I’m sure if I were so inclined, I could make an asinine point about this being ‘inconsistent bullshit’ in a video and become a controversial youtube star! Seriously guys, sometimes the jumpslash hits them, and sometimes you get hit! What’s that all about!!
The skulltula waiting time is gone once you have the hookshot or bow; you can one-shot Skulltulas at any time, firing directly at their face. So Hanson’s example here is relevant for less than half of the game.

‘Wolf dudes’ – If you just stop spamming your sword like an idiot.. ie; wait for a second, a literal second: both variants of wolfos tend to run up to you and double slash, exposing their back for a 1hit kill. The trick here if I recall correct, is not to block the swipe but to step back and let him finish the move, leaving himself open. I can’t remember if a jumpslash is necessary or if a stab will do. The waiting is negligible here and not worth mentioning. The challenge in effectively dealing with the wolfos is not waiting for that attack, but having the wherewithal to step back out of its range, giving it enough rope to hang itself. It’s a slightly different approach to other enemies, cool! We like that.

Gerudos – A better example, they certainly leave less gaps. I want to say you can hit them to get them to open up with attacks but I’m not entirely sure. Again, Biggoron’s sword wrecks them, they can’t deal with it. Deku nuts work on them, at least they do in Majora which I’m playing currently. I’ll hammer the conclusion again: you don’t have to wait.

There’s other more useful criticisms you can make of the Gerudo fights, but I’m not doing his work for him.

Clams – Yeah you got me there. You gotta wait.
Let’s view it through the silly ‘difficulty’ filter though. The challenge, such as it is, is hitting them in the short window between them opening up and rushing you. You can argue that it’s boring or simple and definitely not a challenge, but have you ever been hit by one of those clams, ever? Don’t lie. ;]


In conclusion, only 1+a half of Hanson’s examples of needing to wait for enemies hold up. I might include the Wolfos and give two examples, if I was feeling generous. The evidence is shit, therefore his whole argument about waiting falls apart.

8:45 - ‘Waiting is not a difficult thing to do, but it creates the illusion of difficulty, because it takes up your time.’
This is one of those comments that laymen can just absorb and assume the speaker is smart/on point without being analytical at all, it’s what really irks me about the video. Think about that statement, especially with regards to OoT, it is absolute nonsense.

It implies that the only reason there would be waiting times, if you’re not using the tactics I mention above, is to make the game seem more difficult? Why? Is waiting for a moving platform in some 2D game an attempt at creating ‘difficulty’?

This might just be a semantic point, you could say ‘waiting does not make good/deep combat,’ and fix the whole point. I won’t accept responses of “well that’s what he meant,” by the way, it’s up to Hanson to convey his points better.

‘… but it’s not hard.’
I don’t think anyone’s tried to suggest OoT is hard, like ever.

8:52 – 9:01 – Hanson asserts that long battles in 3 JRPGs aren’t hard but feel substantial due to their length. What the hell does this prove? The challenge in a JRPG is made in a completely different way to action adventures, it’s completely irrelevant.

9:24 - - ‘gives the impression it’s used as a difficulty supplement since none of these enemies are actually difficult to fight’

I don’t know man, he seems to be struggling and playing like shite in all the video clips he presents. There’s more of that hookshot pointing at a wolf this time.

Also ‘difficulty supplement,’ again, this is absolute garbage.
To be fair though, yeah it would’ve been nicer if Stalfos were more aggressive by default.

9:42 – 10:18 – So apparently the Iron Knuckle is a merging of combat and environment because it gives you an opportunity to break pillars for hearts. Let’s ignore the fact that this is not required to actually fight the enemy.

Look at the clip at 7:06, showing link falling into the hole while fighting a Stalfos, ostensibly as an example of the disconnect between combat and environment. What exactly is Hanson’s point here, if it was all about the Z-targeting making it hard to keep track of your surroundings when fighting, then surely targeting becomes a problem when trying to lead Iron Knuckle towards a pillar to break it. Why is it praised for the Iron Knuckle example and not Stalfos.
Or if Iron Knuckle is good because it rewards you for keeping track of your surroundings during the fight, then surely that Stalfos example is also good because you’re punished for not keeping track. The truth is most probably “Something good happen, good game! Bad happen? Bad game!”

Some examples of combat/environment merging that Hanson conveniently neglects to mention:
Spoiler: show
- Beamos statues, their placement, getting bomb flowers over to them. Think dodongo’s cavern, or ganon’s castle.
- Mad Scrubs in Sacred Forest Meadow
- Blue Tektites bouncing over the water, Red ones jumping off ledges at you.
- Poe sisters.
- Skullwalltulas being up on walls and blocking your path.
- The guards in the Sacred Forest Meadow.
- Sliding around an ice themed area to attack the freeze-cloud enemies.
- The same fucking aerial enemies he mentions before.
- A statue enemy landing on a switch in his own fucking video. Like or loathe the puzzle, it is a merging of combat, world and puzzle design!


10:25 – ‘The nature of Z-targeting forced Zelda to be more combat centric’

Another grand credible sounding statement that is wrong. You spend more far more time fighting in Z3 than you do in OoT.

Weeee! That's part 2!
I haven't got any further yet!
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Last edited by Blinge on Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:51 pm 


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Man, dunno how you guys made it through 30 minutes of that video. I got through about 1:20 and couldn't take it anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:58 pm 


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-"The argument that all Zelda gameplay is defined by Zeldo 1. “THAT’S ZELDA.” Heavy implication that all sequels must follow these precedents or they aren’t the real Zelda."

I don't think he's saying that other game in the franchise should play like 1 (indeed later he says that just because some later Zeldo games have the tropes of Zeldo(dungeons with items, etc), they actually have lost the spirit of the franchise). I think what he's saying is that the heart of Zelda 1 is exploration. And indeed that aspect is lost in a lot of later games in the series (but BotW rectified that). Also even thought I love LttP to death, I agree with him that the game shouldn't have the dungeons shown on the map, let alone numbered(but as I said previously, the japanese version doesn't show the numbers). That kinda takes part of the exploration away (bouncing around, trying a couple dungeons in hopes of finding one that can be cleared with your current inventory, etc). Still a superb game tho.


-"9:24 - - ‘gives the impression it’s used as a difficulty supplement since none of these enemies are actually difficult to fight’

I don’t know man, he seems to be struggling and playing like shite in all the video clips he presents. There’s more of that hookshot pointing at a wolf this time."


The fact that he sucks doesn't by itself invalidates the point tho. It's irrelevant


-"Having a point in which you’re looking for an opening to counter-attack is not an attempt to make ‘difficulty.’ "

maybe not but it's still overused. And still wastes your time. There are other ways to do 3D combat. Look at the Ys series, for a lot of enemies you're not waiting for them to do their dance and finish until you can attack. Some do, but the majority don't. I'm kinda with him on this, I don't enjoy the combat versus regular enemies in OoT. Some of the bosses are fun though.


-Another thing I agree with : the story/dialogue didn't add anything I thought. To me a Zeldo game is about exploring and quickly moving around and slashing stuff. The prospect of exploration alone is enough to get me excited, I don't need someone telling me that it's important for them that I go in this cave. I wanna explore that cave regardless. I thought the dialogue stopped the gameplay


-Another thing : I agree that it's a little bit disapointing that the items used to defeated bosses are always in the same dungeon the boss is in. 1 and 3 mixed that up a bit at least, with some bosses being defeated with items found outside dungeons, in previous dungeons, or with the sword. This had you trying various stuff in your inventory to find the enemy's achille's heel, and was less predictable.


I'm sure this is evident by now but I'm not the biggest fan of OoT. I thought it was fine, but nothing more. My biggest gripe with the game, is that it's a lot more linear than 1 and 3. For that reason mainly, it can't touch those games IMO.


Last edited by FinalBaton on Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:11 pm 


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It looks like you're expanding and explaining his point beyond the words he actually says.
He describes the boundless empty exploration of Zelda 1, says 'THAT'S ZELDA' and implies it's the reason for the combined sales of every game in the franchise, even if not one of them kept that formula at the time he made the video. Note he doesn't say anything as loosely defined as 'feeling of exploration.'
If he was unable to make a coherent point, that is not my problem.

FinalBaton wrote:
The fact that he sucks doesn't by itself invalidates the point tho. It's irrelevant


That's an interesting point isn't it. If someone sucks absolute shit at a game, should their criticisms be treated as something with value? I don't really want to get into the example of Hanson himself yet, but this was touched upon in the Sidescroller megathread.

Snoman gaming's "bad game design: NES" Video was slammed because it seemed he could not get past the second stage of Ninja Gaiden. I'd be happy to use this as evidence to invalidate his shitty points.

The Cuphead game reviewer who could barely finish the tutorial and level 1 was slammed and it was suggested that he's in the wrong business.

Laura-Kate Dale's insistence on again, Cuphead, having bad/irritating/unintuitive design was clearly based in her inability to fucking play.

I think it undermines criticisms.

FinalBaton wrote:
I'm kinda with him on this, I don't enjoy the combat versus regular enemies in OoT.


Did you read my spoilertext breakdown of all the enemies he gives as evidence? There's ways to speed all of those fights up.

Edit - Just to clarify my position: I don't care to hold up OoT as a gaming masterpiece or convince people it's good. The only thing I'm trying to prove is that Hansons' points are garbage. This is my rebuttal that you guys apparently wanted to see. Whether or not you enjoy the game is beside the point to me.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:26 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Snoman gaming's "bad game design: NES" Video was slammed because it seemed he could not get past the second stage of Ninja Gaiden. I'd be happy to use this as evidence to invalidate his shitty points.

if that guy had made good points, I'd be agreeing with him even though he's bad at playing the game. His shit points are the annoying bit.

Blinge wrote:
This is my rebuttal that you guys apparently wanted to see. Whether or not you enjoy the game is beside the point to me.

I know, and I'm stating on which points I agree with him, which is the core point and is what you want to discuss


Last edited by FinalBaton on Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:27 pm 


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You missed my favorite bit from the video:

Early in video -- *gets attacked from unexpected angle by a Skulltula, made possible by the shape of the tall room*
Later in video -- "The game never uses its environment in combat!"

Me: ???


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:59 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
It looks like you're expanding and explaining his point beyond the words he actually says.


He explains later in the video that the real core of Zelda 1 in his opinion is the exploration and that he feels this is the real thing that makes a Zelda, a Zelda. He hammers that point quite a bit too, it's not like it's written between the lines or anything


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:50 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
I know, and I'm stating on which points I agree with him, which is the core point and is what you want to discuss


If my dissection of his points re: combat has not convinced you in the least, and your position is simply"well I agree with him" then we're done here, aren't we?
Was he saying the combat isn't fun? I can't remember that being the point, the point was waiting=/= difficulty.

FinalBaton wrote:
Blinge wrote:
It looks like you're expanding and explaining his point beyond the words he actually says.
He explains later in the video that the real core of Zelda 1 in his opinion is the exploration and that he feels this is the real thing that makes a Zelda, a Zelda. He hammers that point quite a bit too, it's not like it's written between the lines or anything


Oh later in the video, okay. I haven't even got there yet, point it out?
I was concerned with his opening statements really and judging them by themselves. I didn't assume they were supposed to make sense in light of something stated over 10 minutes later or w/e.

What's his actual definition from the beginning then, verbatim.
" Zelda's a game where you swing a fuggin sword at some pigs or whatever, and there's bombs and triangles. Get the three triangles, Do it! In Zelda you were an adventurer, and well .. seriously that much wasn't even explained. You were just a green dude, walk into a cave! Old dude goes 'hey, take this' you're like okay it's a sword. You swing it at monsters who shoot rocks and shit at you have a great time killin' em. You figure there's a cave, I get a sword in, there must be other caves to get other shit in, right? Maybe other swords? I dunno.. this world's neat... Well THAT's Zelda."

Ok. great definition. Super useful. I mean, it's hard to argue with, that's for sure.
The only thing that differentiates this garbage description from say, any other game, is a lack of direction.

Ergo, Zelda 1 formula. Which the later games that sold 'bajillions' strayed from.

Obscura wrote:
You missed my favorite bit from the video:

Early in video -- *gets attacked from unexpected angle by a Skulltula, made possible by the shape of the tall room*
Later in video -- "The game never uses its environment in combat!"

Me: ???


General rule of thumb is, if it's not a reward for the player, it's bad design..
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:04 am 


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Blinge wrote:
If my dissection of his points re: combat has not convinced you in the least, and your position is simply"well I agree with him" then we're done here, aren't we?

Looks like it

I don't agree with all of his points, but I do agree with a bunch of 'em and I stated which ones. Of course since you disagree, you gotta explain why. But for the points I pretty much agree with him on, then I don't need to precise anything since I... well, agree. Just gotta reiterate the points it is I agree on. Looks like neither of us is gonna flinch from his original position. And that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion, as do I, I don't need to agree with ya. You certainly seem more agitated than I am here though

Blinge wrote:
were supposed to make sense in light of something stated over 10 minutes later or w/e.

why make a review of a vid you haven't watched in full?


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:11 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
You certainly seem more agitated than I am here though


There's no need for that is there.

Well you said you don't find enemies fun to fight in OoT.
Nyerr! I don't enjoy fighting them in Link to the Past!

All you do is just walk up and mash the sword button reee. That game would be more fun if there were no enemies at all!
Then I could just do the exploring which is what people supposedly play the games for, without anything wasting my time by being in my way! :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:13 am 


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Blinge wrote:
There's no need for that is there.

Well you said you don't find enemies fun to fight in OoT.
Nyerr! I don't enjoy fighting them in Link to the Past!

All you do is just walk up and mash the sword button reee. That game would be more fun if there were no enemies at all!
Then I could just do the exploring which is what people supposedly play the games for, without anything wasting my time by being in my way! :mrgreen:

Fight's in AlttP are quick, so they're actually not wasting anybody's time :mrgreen: hehe


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:28 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
why make a review of a vid you haven't watched in full?


I saw the whole thing years ago, but I'm just going d33p on the points I have re-watched now. Thought I'd post the first major point up for people to chew on here, as it's quite long.

If no one gave a shit I would be spared the (self imposed) task of writing the rest.
I don't think it's a bad thing, i'm only 'reviewing' the bits i've seen.

FinalBaton wrote:
Fight's in AlttP are quick, so they're actually not wasting anybody's time :mrgreen: hehe


A whole room of enemies in Alttp still wastes my "god damn time!" to borrow a phrase.
Whether or not they're fast or slow is ultimately subjective..

fucking IGN can beat both of these "slow" "waiting" enemies in 25 seconds. *shrug*
https://youtu.be/wjJbqa63mDw?t=14
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:00 am 


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Agreed 100% with Burinjuu's arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:04 pm 


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Before I post up my next savaging of egoraptor's video: here's an excellent, well argued discussion of Ocarina's level design, and the innovations brought by this game. Saying something good! Saying reasonably negative things! Defending the water temple!

https://youtu.be/6LO8Z1DkDqc
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:19 pm 


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Part 3 – Puzzled about his points.

10:26 – ‘You still push blocks only now you can’t push them when you’re engaged in combat’

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

10:33 – 11:04 Hanson rants and questions whether the simpler puzzles in OoT are fun.

I ask you, is this good criticism!? Is this gibbering idiot what you want!?
On a personal note, if I happened to agree with one of his rants I’d rather not see it because I don’t want my opinions to be associated with such guff.

He asks if shooting an eye-switch is a puzzle, then goes onto question how fun it is. Well what are we doing here, arguing that it’s not a real puzzle, or that it’s not fun? It is a puzzle, it may be incredibly simple, but it is a fucking puzzle.

Hanson points out one of the simplest puzzles, in the 2nd dungeon, where the game hasn’t had a chance to increase the complexity of puzzles yet, as an example of un-fun design. I mean, cherry pick much?

So by his admission, there are moments when you shoot a crystal to open a door in Z3 also. The only reason he gives for it being less fun in OoT is that you had to look for the crystal here instead of seeing it straight away. Why is it acceptable to have such a simple mechanic in Z3 (which is even simpler because you can see it straight away) and not have its value as an inclusion questioned, yet OoT is slammed for it?

I can only conclude that Hanson is hates having to pause and look around even for a second (read: exploring the room) and would rather be making constant linear progress. Damn, should we get this guy into shmups?

The value of this eye switch puzzle in Dodongo’s Cavern is player training, actually. It fosters and necessitates an awareness of three dimensional space in the player, getting old Zelda hands and new players alike to think more in 3D. Offering a mechanic in a very simple form early on then building on this later is a tried and true design principle.

Hanson does accept that the 3D medium means everything won’t be immediately visible. Just imagine for a second what the game would’ve been like if there was nothing you had to ‘stop forward momentum’ to look for in a room. Imagine the cries of Nintendo squandering the opportunity to make use of the 3D space by not having you look for anything, by not using the walls and ceilings.

'Stopping forward momentum, Stopping everything.. To look for a diamond to whack'

I played Z3 a couple of years back, and there were times I had to stop and think about where I was, and what to do next. My forward momentum was stopped! No doubt this happened to Hanson when he was younger too. If you don’t like having to stop and look around and think for a second, then you don’t like Zelda games. Any Zelda game. Hell, add any game where you have to look around for something, if you agree with Hanson’s rant here, then you must accept that you don’t actually enjoy any game that requires you to search for something.

What is this myth of perpetual forward motion? Tripe.

The end of his rant is just basically “I don’t like having to look around.” Great statement, really tore the game apart huh. Well here’s my opinion: the puzzles in OoT on balance, are fun, and were fun when it came out, I think the popularity of the game attests to that. I can say this as defining what Zelda is and saying “This is why it sold!” is apparently fair game in both the video and this thread.

Myself and people generally like those “Eureka!” moments, whether about small rooms, or the larger machinations of a whole dungeon. I’ve heard Zeldo puzzles described as not particularly hard, but they can make you feel smart, even if you aren’t being all that smart; I can accept that.

11:30 – 12:08 - 'A puzzle is something you have all the information for.'

No it isn’t. What definition of puzzle says this?

Again, grand statement to make himself sound credible when it’s actually garbage. This is a circus.

Hanson appears to be confusing the word puzzle with a jigsaw puzzle in this analogy, that’s just a certain type of puzzle. I find absolutely nothing wrong with searching for the items or knowledge needed to solve a problem, then returning to that problem with the “Aha” he mentions. He also conveniently ignores any such puzzles from OoT for which you in fact do have the necessary elements from the get go. Not to mention the larger scale puzzles that manifest themselves as dungeons, which test spatial reasoning, memory, exploration, logic. Please refer to Mark Brown’s video from the post above if you want a far smarter breakdown.

11:34 - Let’s look at the puzzle which I think Hanson is using as an example of good puzzle design. A puzzle you’re supposed to have ‘all the information’ to begin with. He takes the flaming deku stick from the torch across the shallow water, allowing link to reach the cobweb and burn it without being submerged. Do you have all these pieces to begin with? No! You have to explore the room first, and find a switch on the floor, which then lights the torch. So that’s a piece missing to start with! You could also be pedantic and argue that the game never tells you to light sticks at torches. (let me double check that later) Again, missing information, rendering this ‘not a puzzle’ per Hanson’s definition, yet he sees fit to use it as a good example.

Look at the clip Hanson shows as an example of bad puzzle design: The huge rocks in Ganon’s Tower.
So: in the game so far, Link must get the Silver Gauntlets in order to lift huge heavy rocks. When you approach such rocks you’re given the prompt to grab them but he can’t do it. So Silver Gauntlets = lift heavy rocks. When you find even bigger rocks that Link is prompted to yet cannot lift with the Silver Gauntlets; it is a logical deduction that there’s another item needed to do so. It’s also a logical deduction that gold follows silver, there’s probably better gloves you need to get. This occurred to me when I was a child ffs.

‘the puzzle itself isn’t satisfying.’ Subjective, useless conclusion from bad evidence.

12:13 – 12:39 - Hanson’s example of fighting Darknuts in Z1.

Wtf is he on about. Is this supposed to be an example of a better puzzle? Kill all the enemies in a room and the door opens, apparently that is more satisfying. I’d say this example is less deserving of the “puzzle” title.

Is he trying to give this as an example of better combat? He doesn’t say so. Is it up to me as the viewer to just accept this revealed wisdom like interpreting scripture?
Whatever, it makes more sense as an example satisfying combat vs unsatisfying combat. However, he gives this as an example of a satisfying puzzle! And this is after saying OoT made the series more combat focused! ‘but look that’s not to say puzzles can’t exist in Ocarina of Time’s combat centric universe.’ What the fuck is this.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:13 pm 


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I'm at work and can't watch the good YouTube vid, but Water Temple is the best part of OOT and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:20 am 


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Ocarina of Time is a bad game but not the worst game.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:17 am 


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I know it's hard to say anything in gaming is factually incorrect, but calling OoT a BAD game is about as close as I've ever come.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:20 am 


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Walking simulators aren't games, they're walking simulators.

Ocarina of Time is a so-so walking sim.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 am 


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In other news, Dark Souls is a walking sim.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:36 pm 


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Majora's Mask is the one to play. So much more interesting.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:00 pm 


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Pre-ordered ZOoT and played it on day of release. Panzer Dragoon Saga got restocked a week or so after buying ZOoT. I was playing both games interchangeably for a couple days, then finally concluded "what am I doing wasting time with this insipid Zelda game?" I never touched OoT again.
It was boring from day one and ultimately demonstrates the beginning of a decline of what videogaming requires of players; or rather, the mainstreaming of videogames.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:16 pm 


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Are subjective points allowed in the Geneva convention on Nerdfights?

Who knows, I would hope not, but I was naive enough to name the thread like this.
I wanted to dissect one video, not place myself on permanent ocarina defence force duty.
but I shall meet your point at the same level sir:
No, it isn't boring.

Demonstrating the beginning of casualisation is an interesting point though, are you laying blame at OoT's feet or just seeing it as an early adopter of an already moving trend?

Also I agree Orange, yet I assume the criticisms levelled at Ocarina mostly apply to Majora too.. with the exception of story.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:45 am 


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Blinge wrote:
Demonstrating the beginning of casualisation is an interesting point though, are you laying blame at OoT's feet or just seeing it as an early adopter of an already moving trend?


I do think it was boring. There was a certain amount of enchantment for the first few play sessions, however it was never exciting for me to play. I mean there was excitement leading up to the release, but after getting to grips with the gameplay, it all became mundane.

Of course I'm just talking shit when I claim it demonstrated the beginning of anything. Early adopter of an already moving trend, is a good way to put it. The wide fan acclaim for the game (and then its persistence) just showed me the direction gamers and gaming was moving. Casual lowest common denominator gaming. Oot was a turning point in gaming from my perspective - whereby a flagship title from a series previously known for it's sometimes devious puzzle design and punishing dungeons now became a game where I could start and play without having to worry about dying. I forget, was/is there much hand holding? I don't have any memories of puzzling out where to go next or ever getting lost.
And then on the other hand I had Panzer Dragoon Saga which defied conventions and was mysterious and new every second I played it. Oot felt like Zelda Basic in 3D

And sorry to force you to stand guard for the ocarina defense force. It's been a while since I've seen Oot discussion, and I was sorta tickled that there are other dissenters. For a solid decade+ it seemed the only allowable conclusion was that OoT was literally the best game ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:41 am 


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Koa Zo wrote:
Blinge wrote:
Demonstrating the beginning of casualisation is an interesting point though, are you laying blame at OoT's feet or just seeing it as an early adopter of an already moving trend?

I do think it was boring. There was a certain amount of enchantment for the first few play sessions, however it was never exciting for me to play. I mean there was excitement leading up to the release, but after getting to grips with the gameplay, it all became mundane.


I may be approaching the topic with weapons grade autism now, but for the sake of explaining my bias I should probably point out that I played and finished the game at 8 years of age, it has a special place in my heart even if I prefer the sequel.

Quote:
Casual lowest common denominator gaming. Oot was a turning point in gaming from my perspective - whereby a flagship title from a series previously known for its sometimes devious puzzle design and punishing dungeons now became a game where I could start and play without having to worry about dying. I forget, was/is there much hand holding? I don't have any memories of puzzling out where to go next or ever getting lost.


Was Zeldo really known for its puzzles or 'punishing' dungeons? I've heard people here call the other darling, Link to the Past rather easy. Might've been Sumez, not sure.

OoT has horrific levels of handholding at the beginning, yes. Like "this door is locked you have to do something to get the door unlocked." "Hold forward to climb these vines." Thankfully this is mostly pulled back by the 2nd dungeon.

Here's the thing, if it's lowest common denominator, then why have I seen grown adults struggle with the dungeons? Like when I forced my gamer ex to play the game at gunpoint.
Or my Souls veteran friend, who resorted to using a bloody walkthrough several times in Ocarina because in his thinking it's one of them games that are 'old and jank' and you can't reasonably be expected to figure them out for yourself.
My palm is still stuck on my face. Sorry for the anecdotal evidence..

Or why is the Water Temple being hard a total meme? The complexity of that dungeon is burned into the collective memory of gaming, and it's not just because of having to switch Link's booties.

I'd even suggest the dungeon + puzzle design of the game as a whole is more complex than that of AlttP.
How far did you actually get in OoT?

Quote:
For a solid decade+ it seemed the only allowable conclusion was that OoT was literally the best game ever.

I think preferring the top down games for personal preference or actually well reasoned arguments (rare to see) is perfectly fine.
As I understand it, Link's Awakening is often in the running for best zeldo title.
Just not in IGN-tier 'best game evar' lists.

Haha most of the dissent is rabid fanboys arguing which 3D title is the best. I once had some guy e-yell at me on twitch about zeldo being about exploration and that's part of the reason why Ocarina is worse than every 3D game that came after
Well that's a whole different kettle of fish. Fish from Wind Waker perhaps, which you won't see much of, because you won't see much of anything.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:38 am 


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Hmm, interesting viewpoint. Mine may be skewed as I’m currently replaying LttP, and don’t think I’ve touched OoT since completing it upon its initial release. From memory though, the dungeons in OoT were no less devious than ALttP’s (I still remember the water temple to this day), and the combat was/is certainly far more fun. I find the original’s four way control utterly horrid these days, it’s certainly a more challenging game, though I’d argue that the challenge is partially down to some dated design. LttP’s combat is pretty repetitive, especially at full health, and lacking in any sort of nuance whatsoever other than ‘hit things’. If we’re arguing where the slide into ‘dumbing down’ started, I’d point the finger at LttP, but your dumbing down is my ‘becoming less of a chore to play’ to some degree.

Bear in mind this is a view based on memories of OoT. I intend to play it through after LttP, I suppose my enjoyment of the game back in the day could be more ‘shock of the new’ – it’s generally regarded as one of the first games to make proper use of 3D space effectively rather than just transposing an existing design into 3D, and I suppose the combat could be far more horrid than I remember, but the fact that I went on to play and enjoy WW and MM would suggest otherwise. TP is where I lost patience, due to what had started to become a predictable formula and it taking even longer than OoT to get going. Likewise, I didn’t see the fuss over Okami – now that felt to me like a watered-down and challenge-free Zelda, but, opinions etc.

Given my disappointment with BotW and long absence, I think I’m finally ready for a traditional 3D Zelda again.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:09 pm 


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Part 4: A platform for hacks

12:44 – ‘Sliding spiked death pucks comin’ out from around the corner you can’t see is just BAD FUCKIN’ DESIGN.’

Is he fucking retarded or what? In both those examples you can see the spinning spikes when you walk into the room. What was he saying earlier about the combat being disconnected from the environment? I guess this bit doesn’t count..

‘If it doesn’t work in 3D you change it.’

I think someone is just terrible at the game, I mean, this is a clear example of someone’s incompetence undermining their arguments isn’t it?

13:13 ‘why do I gotta leap across these platforms?’

Fucking hell, what kind of nitpick is this. Does he want every single second of the game to be a unique challenge? You’re in the wrong genre, pal! OG zeldo didn’t have this, Z3 didn’t have this! There are times in Z3 where you walk along in a straight line for quite some time. That’s OK. It’s fucking OK to have some dead air in an action adventure game. If you don’t like a single second of dead air: shmups! Ninja Gaiden!

Hanson complains about a platform jump being boring, yet when hit by a spike-puck or dealing with enemies from the air he screams bad design. I’m increasingly baffled that anyone takes this video seriously, seriously, I’m stunned.

Also his video example of why he has to leap across is poorly chosen too. That “platform” is the last piece of the puzzle in the Fire Temple, you have to drop it into the room from high above, giving you a stepping stone to take on the boss.

13:30 Hanson suggests they should’ve spiced up the platforms with combat.

The first example he gives is the same spinning spike, which with anything more than incredibly tight closeness to Link, would just offer the same situation of being hit from behind that he ranted about earlier, nice one mate.

Second example; rehashing enemies from the top-down games. In the clip from 13:17 you can see a fire bat coming in and pressuring Link from above when he wants to jump the platform. Let that thing hit you in the air and you’re going flying. This implication is apparently lost on Hanson.

Oh what’s that? You want more precarious moments of combat when platforming? Ok.

https://youtu.be/fJg3HP36FrM?t=3600
At 1:00:03 we can see how Hanson deals with sitting bats. Great job, guy, you were clearly ready to have more involved combat moments on every platforming section.

Or 1:01:28 When “just holding forward” is apparently too much for the master critic to handle.

*Back to the Sequilitis video*
14:08 Hanson complains that throwing bombs is harder in Ocarina because it can go in more directions than four, and bounce off walls.

Again, this is just mad cuz bad. No one complains about failing a section in Z3 the first attempt(s), It’s assumed that the player will try again until they get the hang of it. This is exactly the improvement element of gaming that is much mourned in the modern era, Hanson himself does it. Yet when it comes to throwing bombs he just wants it to work as easily as possible.

14:16 This video example is flawed again, he means to demonstrate the vagueness of a bomb’s landing when throwing down an elevation. You can just walk to the side here and drop the bomb directly below Link’s feet so it lands at the crystal, that’s how smart people such as 8 year old Blinge did it, buddy. God I wish I was still as smart as I was at age 8.

14:24 Who the fuck throws a bomb at Lizalfos when a Beamos is right there? Who the hell uses bombs vs those foes anyway? This is a video strawman.

14:54 ‘In each dungeon Ocarina has a unique item in a regular ol’ treasure chest. In each dungeon, it just kinda shows up after a random battle with some enemies.

Patently false. He even shows getting the slingshot in the first dungeon. There’s no random battle here! You just enter the room and run across a crumbling block to reach the chest. He’s saying things that are objectively untrue for fuck sake, this isn’t even defensible by “murr my opinion” standards.

Where do you get the bomb bag in Dodongo cavern? Does it “show up” after random enemies? No you have to find it.
Megaton hammer? After a timed dash to the chest hitherto surrounded by flame.

15:02 : Hanson points out that Z3 has a big chest as a visible goal to work towards, that you need to find the big key for.

We’re halfway through the video and this is the first remotely good point he’s made. That is pretty cool. However at this point, and after seeing him actually play Ocarina, I don’t trust this guy to tell me that the sky is blue. I would be interested to know if every dungeon in Z3 shows you the big chest as a goal to work towards in the way he’s saying. I can’t remember.

“Also allows me to face off against an incredible boss.
Incredible huh? He really snuck that one in there.

“The time it takes me to get back to the treasure, is like the most suspenseful thing ever.”
Otherwise known as backtracking or waiting depending on who you ask, but nevermind..
16:00 ‘Simply walking to the chest is all the suspense you need’

‘The feeling of suspense is real’

Meh. I feel no suspense when I walk to a chest. It’s fucking Zelda, nothing in that chest will really surprise me. In fact, in Z3 if the chest isn’t the BIG CHEST then there’s less reason to care, there’s not going be a new item in there.
16:17: Opening bigger chests in OoT is long.

Well, yeah, if you don’t like the chest animations you don’t like the chest animations. Nothing much to say about that, other than the music and experience of doing so has become an iconic Zelda moment, like it or lump it.
They are a bit on the long side for someone with attention span issues, yes. This is a very petty point though I must say.


I'll add at this point that someone made a supercut of the entire game grumps play through of OoT, it is.. enlightening, to say the least. It's certainly good evidence for bad play undermining someone's criticisms. Watch at your own risk and/or if you're bored.
https://youtu.be/fJg3HP36FrM
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:25 pm 


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I don't think the big chests show on the map in 3. I've certainly not noticed it so far, then again, I think I've found the chest before I've found the compass so far. Just reveals the rest of the map and the boss room location I think.
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:51 pm 


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drauch wrote:
Man, dunno how you guys made it through 30 minutes of that video. I got through about 1:20 and couldn't take it anymore.

Same.

"Seeing Jon and Arin talk about game design is like watching a 2 year old try to fuck a 30 year old woman."
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 Post subject: Re: Zeldo Nerdfight Thread: Burinju's Reevenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:55 pm 


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Re:Z3's big key and big chest, a big downside is that if that setup had been in Z1, the coolest puzzle in the whole series (finding the raft in second quest dungeon 4) couldn't have happened.


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