Why do people make "MAME" cabs for console titles?

[Pixel_Outlaw]

I've never understood why people go to the trouble of making MAME cabinets then just use them for NES and SNES.
Their choice I suppose, but it seems like in some way they get tired of arcade titles "eating quarters" and just revert to the comfort of "retro" console titles.

Anyone else cringe when you see NES/SNES themed "MAME" cabinets?
Just my opinion. I realize it's a matter of taste.

What are your thoughts?

[soprano1]

Using MAME itself to play NES/SNES? Ugh.
I guess because they can?

[trap15]

A severe lack of taste or concept.

[Sumez]

I wouldn't try to find rational explanations for anything "mame cabinet" people do. It makes for a hilarious thread over at AO though.

[Austin]

There's definitely a novelty factor in having an emulation station that literally does everything, and some, especially if you don't have much of a console collection. A few years back I wanted to do the same with a spare PC that wasn't getting any use. I took some time to load up HyperSpin, but after looking further into what it takes to get everything working, I was like, "screw that" and would just leave it on in the background with the splash screen playing. If anything, it's a nice background object for an arcade and pinball game room, which I was trying to flip a portion of my home into at the time.

[Ed Oscuro]

There were arcade cabinets for both systems though - and I feel some NES games play better with a joystick anyway. I wouldn't dedicate a cabinet to it though...the whole cabinet-for-anything-not-dedicated craze seems to just be the nostalgia and wanting to do a hobby project. It's definitely not the most practical way to go about things.

[DJ Incompetent]

I've never understood why people go to the trouble of making MAME cabinets then just use them for NES and SNES.

It's the "expensive device = one purpose" mentality. They're making an electronic totem. They are declaring "This is my space for this videogame task," ignoring the history and the designed utility of the game hardware. The cultural form factor and social representation of a videogame cabinet is more prized than the purpose of the contents inside it. When I've been emulating long enough, Legends of Zelda, Great Giana Sisters, Battle Garegga, and Ninja Golf all become insignificant notches in a rom folder instead of a conscious hardware history.

It's similar questions like "why do we not call smartphones pocket computers?" and "why have over half of smartphone owners never downloaded an app?" People often would like the electronic device to behave in the way the social culture and marketing dictates the device to be. Of all the people in any country who own a television, do you think over half of them are using more than one a/v input? I don't. Expensive device, one purpose.

[Sumez]

It's the "expensive device = one purpose" mentality. They're making an electronic totem. They are declaring "This is my space for this videogame task," ignoring the history and the designed utility of the game hardware. The cultural form factor and social representation of a videogame cabinet is more prized than the purpose of the contents inside it. When I've been emulating long enough, Legends of Zelda, Great Giana Sisters, Battle Garegga, and Ninja Golf all become insignificant notches in a rom folder instead of a conscious hardware history.

I'll take a wild guess that a lot of people who build these rarely, if ever, actually play them. And going for actually finishing one game is probably even rarer.
Those cabinets stink of novelty, and "nostalgia" for the sake of that.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

It's the "expensive device = one purpose" mentality. They're making an electronic totem. They are declaring "This is my space for this videogame task," ignoring the history and the designed utility of the game hardware. The cultural form factor and social representation of a videogame cabinet is more prized than the purpose of the contents inside it. When I've been emulating long enough, Legends of Zelda, Great Giana Sisters, Battle Garegga, and Ninja Golf all become insignificant notches in a rom folder instead of a conscious hardware history.

It's similar questions like "why do we not call smartphones pocket computers?" and "why have over half of smartphone owners never downloaded an app?" People often would like the electronic device to behave in the way the social culture and marketing dictates the device to be. Of all the people in any country who own a television, do you think over half of them are using more than one a/v input? I don't. Expensive device, one purpose.

The unfortunate thing about not calling cell phones "pocket computers" is it sets the bar very low for phone manufacturers. This is why we've got Fisher Price GUIs and limited authority options. (I'd like to put REAL Linux on mine and have a pocket server and multi purpose device but that's a debate for another time!) Cell "phones" are like selling a truck as a "radio". Everything beyond the included radio looks like a feature.

It's the "expensive device = one purpose" mentality. They're making an electronic totem. They are declaring "This is my space for this videogame task," ignoring the history and the designed utility of the game hardware. The cultural form factor and social representation of a videogame cabinet is more prized than the purpose of the contents inside it. When I've been emulating long enough, Legends of Zelda, Great Giana Sisters, Battle Garegga, and Ninja Golf all become insignificant notches in a rom folder instead of a conscious hardware history.

I'll take a wild guess that a lot of people who build these rarely, if ever, actually play them. And going for actually finishing one game is probably even rarer.
Those cabinets stink of novelty, and "nostalgia" for the sake of that.

I'd actually like to make one that is fairly traditional soon without it being novelty.
I probably won't brand it with any particular game art/mascots just some simple colors and a tasteful bendy stripe or two along the edges.
It seems when you've got a cabinet associated with many different games it's best to just have a simple, clean, non specific design.
Nothing to the effect of "Sup3r Outlaw MAME Game Blast-o-station9000!" with a bunch of Nintendo CG Yoshi decals on the side.

And you bet I'll play for score the correct way.

My current concern is finding good plans for correct tilt and height on the control panel.
I actually like the form factor and would like to sit at a stool and have a friend beside me playing.
I'm not "bringing the arcade home!!!" so much as making an arcade cabinet to sit at and play from.

[Sumez]

Yeah, I think there's a pretty huge difference between making a station for all the games that you already play, and one of those horrible branded monstrosities.

[quash]

In general I don't approve of the idea, though there are exceptions of console games playing just as well if not better on stick, such as Guardian Heroes. Also worth keeping in mind is that some console games actually did get arcade releases, such as Super Mario Bros and Sonic The Hedgehog, so in those cases it wouldn't be entirely inappropriate, either. On the whole, though, I'm sure most people just like the idea of having a bunch of old games on one device with authenticity taking a back seat to convenience.

[Sumez]

It's crazy that arcade versions of Mario and Sonic do exist though, as both of those are some of the best examples of games that play much better with a pad.

[cools]

I play more 8 and 16bit console titles in MAME on my Egret 3 than I do arcade titles.

It's got a 29" Toshiba CRT along with sticks and buttons that wipe the floor with any of the original controllers. However it's not so good for anything that uses shoulder buttons as directional controls (e.g. F-Zero).

[Sumez]

Any game that requires you to gently/quickly tap directions really doesn't work well with joysticks either. You can play them, but not optimally.

Of course there are still a ton of games on 8- and 16-bit consoles that feel designed for an arcade setup. Shooters are a given.

[BrianC]

I disagree that sticks aren't good for quick tapping motions, and I would argue that shmups require them just as much as a game like Sonic or SMB. Many games designed around them originated in arcades, especially fighting games. I grew up playing games on joystick, back when systems were packed with them, though I also like pads quite a bit.

[Sumez]

Tapping in platformers is completely different from those tip-toeing movements in shooters I feel like we've had that discussion before.

[BrianC]

Tapping in platformers is completely different from those tip-toeing movements in shooters I feel like we've had that discussion before.

What discussion? There's no proof to your claim. A smiley and direct disagreement with my post is not proof. While they are obviously different, both shooters and platformers require quick tapping from right to left. Not to mention the double tapping motions in many fighters. Not to mention the platformers that originated in arcades.

[Sumez]

When playing Tetris on a joystick, one of the primary techniques popularly used to increase your speed is stacking to avoid continuously tapping directions as much as possible, due to how ineffective that is on a joystick (but as long as you avoid taps, joystick is generally considered the preferable control method of the two).
Super Mario Bros. is almost self explanatory - precision movements are notably harder in the arcade version, making the game much harder than the console variants. I also recommend trying wall climbing in Ninja Gaiden on the PlayChoice version to immediately get frustrated about how cumbersome it is to perform a movement that feels completely intuitive on console. Or just play the arcade version of Quarth, which is all about tapping constantly.
A good joystick with very short engage of course helps a lot, but it only goes so far. I don't think I need to "prove" why tapping a button is infinitely simpler than doing it with a direction that you are pulling a physical stick.

You're free to disagree, but the difference is immediately apparent to me. But I'll also give you the benefit of the doubt, and if I ever have the chance to meet you in real life, I'd love to see how you play these games on arcade controllers.

[BrianC]

I had no issues with wall jumping in Ninja Gaiden, but I did have trouble ducking at first, but I feel it's more of a case of getting used to the joystick than simply writing off some games as unplayable. I had a hard time playing some games with pad before getting used to it. I understand it's different, but you make it sound like it's harder to play some games with joystick than it actually is. I mean fighting games are games where joysticks are generally preferred, but require all sorts of fast tapping motions. BTW, I'm not claiming to be an expert, but you sound definite that certain games don't play well with joystick, when it's more of a case of getting used to playing with a stick. BTW, I'm not saying tapping is easier on joystick than a pad, just that some games with heavy tapping are designed around using a joystick.

Vs. SMB is harder than it's console variants on its own and some of the issues stem from Nintendo's own joystick rather than simply becuase it's being played with joystick.

edit: Still need more practice, but I beat stage 3 of NG with the PC10 version (though I used a RAP EX-SE). I also did the left and jump trick to get up some walls when missing a jump.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Well, I just plan on keeping arcade games only on the unit I'll build.
I've got my childhood worth of consoles hooked up and at the ready.

Now if I could just find a good set of plans in imperial measurements not guessed together...

[Ed Oscuro]

FWIW, Ninja Gaiden was one of the titles that saw a PlayChoice-10 release. In fact, the whole NES trilogy did. Ninja action games from Sega also got released on their Mega Tech / Mega Play systems.

I don't have tons of experience with it, but I felt Kage (Shadow of the Ninja, a bit Castlevania-ish) plays fine with a NES Advantage.

People like the Advantage, right? I could see not wanting to use it for Super Mario Bros, I guess, though that's probably still just a matter of re-compensating to the famous sliding inertia. I tend to like pad-like (or keyboard-like) controllers for everything, including shmups, for the reason Sumez outlined - I don't think it's a genre-specific thing; you have a bit more travel in a joystick than a pad and that has to be compensated for somehow. It's worth mentioning that I started gaming with sidescrollers etc. on a Windows keyboard, and never really touched a joystick outside arcades.

[Sumez]

I had a hard time playing some games with pad before getting used to it. I understand it's different, but you make it sound like it's harder to play some games with joystick than it actually is.
(...)
edit: Still need more practice, but I beat stage 3 of NG with the PC10 version (though I used a RAP EX-SE). I also did the left and jump trick to get up some walls when missing a jump.

I don't want to sound like it's just completely impossible to play these games, just that the joystick is a clear disadvantage. I did 1CC Ninja Gaiden no issues first time I tried it on PC10.
But when playing certain tight action games it feels really uncomfortable to me to be at even a slight disadvantage, a feeling I think most STG players should be familiar with. Though in the case of something like Super Mario Bros. it feels much more scathing than just a "slight" disadvantage, due to the high skill ceiling of maintaining perfect air control in that game. I'm sure you are correct, a lot of that is getting used to the joystick, but the game is obviously designed with the pad in mind.

People like the Advantage, right?

The Advantage is a pretty crappy joystick, but it does it job (and let's be frank, the design is god damn awesome). I don't use it much, but I find it rather uncomfortable to play games with 8-direction movements well on the standard NES pad - namely shooters of course. The diagonals simply don't feel natural.

[BrianC]

The Arcade Archives version of Vs. SMB removed the disadvantage (the frame of input lag) of the AC version. Have you tried the mini version of the PC10? That joystick is especially bad.

The Advantage got a later version in Japan with microswitches.

[Sumez]

The Advantage got a later version in Japan with microswitches.

This is the first time I have heard of that. :O
Any way to identify these on eBay?

[Austin]

I had no issues with wall jumping in Ninja Gaiden, but I did have trouble ducking at first, but I feel it's more of a case of getting used to the joystick than simply writing off some games as unplayable. I had a hard time playing some games with pad before getting used to it. I understand it's different, but you make it sound like it's harder to play some games with joystick than it actually is.

I agree with that, it's pretty much just a matter of adjusting. It's also not like platformers and side scrolling action games haven't existed with joystick controls in mind in the past. I don't quite understand the notion that arcade sticks are bad for tapping. I thought that's exactly what they are good for, and a big reason they are the preferred control method for high level fighting game and shmup players.

Personally, I have a blast playing on a friend's Playchoice machine. Super Mario Bros. and Ninja Gaiden on a stick is a lot of fun. Sure, I might not be able to wall jump as well right away as I can on a NES pad, but we're talking a few playthroughs of experience with the game on a joystick as opposed to 30 years on a NES controller. I will get better with it.

[BrianC]

The Advantage got a later version in Japan with microswitches.

This is the first time I have heard of that. :O
Any way to identify these on eBay?

I forgot the actual name. Something like Ascii Stick MKII

edit: Ascii Stick II Turbo. The JP counterpart of the Advantage is the Ascii Stick Turbo Jr. There's also a more arcade style FC stick that's just called "Ascii Stick" (which is shown briefly in that video).

That Ascii Stick II also has a feature that turns off diagonal inputs. Sweet!

[Sumez]

Ah. I was hoping for something official that would actually be in the design of the Advantage, not just a third party arcade stick. This still looks nice though.
Unfortunately it (obviously) only works with the expansion port of the Famicom. Do any western releases support this?

[BrianC]

Advantage was actually made by Ascii. FC counterpart for NES Max is also a third party controller (BPS Max). As far as I know, there is no western version of the Ascii Stick II Turbo. The AVS has an expansion port, but US and EU systems don't.

There is an official stick with colors closer to the FC made by Hori, but I heard it's not very good.

[Sumez]

Oh I do have plenty of famicoms. But I find it hard to believe a western developed game would be programmed to even read the controller expansion port. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few Japanese ones forgot to do it, too.

Then again, I can't think of any western developed game worth playing with a stick... Battletoads maybe?

[BrianC]

oh. I wasn't suggesting playing it with a western developed game, I just wanted to mention that there was a microswitched stick that was similar (and I did mention it was a JP stick). The Vs. SMB hack doesn't work with the expansion port.