Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

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Skykid
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Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Skykid »

https://kck.st/2Q9OqB0

I’m very interested to hear what some of you guys make of this (BIL, Kitten and all the other action platform fans).

For me it’s the only time I think I’ve ever seen a KS for an indie dev creating a 2D game where I’ve been struck by how mechanically solid it looks. Seems to have balanced elements from the best (Shinobi 3, Strider, Hagane). Hope the final product actually plays well.
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Re: Bushinden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by kitten »

it's just bushiden, i think, though i had originally read it as "bushinden," too

i mentioned it briefly over in the scrolling action thread

i have a lot of antipathy for metroidvanias and how much they've completely absorbed modern 2D action that i think i've largely made overtly, obnoxiously, exhaustingly clear over way-too-many giant posts, but i am actually pretty hype for this one! already backed it and would frankly urge everyone else here that at least loves a good-lookin' ninja action game to do so since it's at a mild risk of not quite making it there (though i do think it'll get there). the pixel art looks superb and the animations are incredibly readable. i was immediately impressed by how intuitive the combat looks and feel like this is probably going to have some very pleasantly slick controls.

however... Image

while the campaign does state that it can be completed without backtracking, i am still worried! the single trailer shows your health bar tripling over the course of the game (god knows if there's a damage reduction upgrade on top of this or if it will get even bigger) and i worry significantly about how much the upgrades will screw with the boss balance while the non-linearity dicks hard with the pacing. very rarely is a metroidvania balanced in such a way that it maintains being a solidly challenging game and i'm deeply concerned this is going to be a really pretty package with ultimately inconsequential play.

i'm backing it fully prepared that it might disappoint me and just be a pretty package with some satisfying basics. i'm down for $45 on it being just that and god knows i've bought worse for more with lower expectations. at this point, i'm willing to throw money at just the superficial staying alive and heck if this doesn't at least nail the superficial.

as far as action game kickstarters go, i most regret not backing steel assault, which as last looked at is shaping up to seem fantastic. i contacted the main dev of this and he's considering doing a slacker backer thing sometime, which would be great. i had passed on backing that one because i frankly wasn't very impressed, initially, but it has really gone places.
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Re: Bushinden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by BurlyHeart »

Sorry to stray from the original topic, but Steel Assault looks mighty impressive :o
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Re: Bushinden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Skykid »

I’ve been hasty, I didn’t even know it was a metroidvania lol.

Well that’s marginally impacted my good feels now. :(
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by pixelarcstudios »

Hey everyone! Chris here from Pixel Arc Studios... developer of Bushiden. Just wanted to clarify a couple things for you about the game (and maybe put your minds at ease)! You health will only increase one of two ways: by purchasing upgrades from the shop and by backtracking/exploring to find health upgrades. So, they are totally avoidable! Nothing really will screw with the boss balance either. Each boss grants a new type of ability once defeated, so the battles will be designed around demonstrating those abilities to the player (teaching) via learning the boss and its patterns. Then, once the player has been granted that ability, he/she should already understand how it works!

Lastly, the levels will have some branching paths, but the exploration parts will mostly be gated behind the upgraded abilities you gain from clearing levels... so, if you never revisit areas with new abilities the exploration will be at a minimum. We tried to get across that the game is influenced by metroidvanias, but it's not a full-blown metroidvania. Think Mega Man X, but with more expansive areas opening up in levels once you have certain upgrades.

Hopefully that sounds good and relieves some of your worries! If you have any questions feel free to ask! :)
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by kitten »

pixelarcstudios wrote:Hopefully that sounds good and relieves some of your worries! If you have any questions feel free to ask! :)
oh, hey, first of all: thanks truly for taking the time to drop into the thread. i'm surprised at how often devs tend to lurk this forum.

my problem with rockman x is that like pretty much every game with a significant amount of upgrades to accrue, finding where it is theoretically balanced leads to the conclusion that it isn't, really. each of the classic x games becomes far too easy and diluted if you pick up every upgrade and far too much a tedious slog without them. bosses inevitably start factoring attrition in with crueler and more punishing attacks and you end up with a scenario where without upgrades, the final boss is going to kill you in like two hits versus where if you have every upgrade it's going to kill you in a couple dozen. your health by the end of rockman x is doubled, damage dealt to you is halved, and you have five theoretical lifebars if your 4 sub-tanks are filled. that's literally twenty (two times two times five) times the amount of punishment you can take compared to the start of the game, minus a bit when you account that a sub-tank doesn't fill a full 32 points (i forget the exact number).

this tends to naturally lead the designer of each game making the final boss have a bunch of cruelly powerful attacks that are going to wipe an un-upgraded player out. i've played each of the first 4 games without upgrades to completion to see... it ain't fun and ain't satisfying. i'd struggle to even necessarily call it challenging - it's largely easy up until the endgame and then becomes a horrible slog as everything is suddenly tremendously inflated to account for how theoretically powerful you can be. lots of bosses in the game also fall into really easy to manipulate patterns where you alternate climbing up a side of the screen, jumping down and firing a charged shot, and then climbing the other side.

i tend to find that the rockman x games are largely attractive to people who want to dip their toes into action but still want the comfort of being able to tediously grind their way to victory almost like you would in an rpg. though there's some degree of competency required to get through them, a theoretical 20 times your starting health, increased mobility, and more powerful attacks to be found with upgrades tends to be more what a player ends up winning with than their skill. this is by design, not an accident. comparatively, i feel each of the classic rockman games (particularly 1-6) are balanced around the idea that the e-can is for a beginner player (as it's not even in the first game) and that everything should be designed around the baseline that you do not have them in your inventory.

bushiden interests me a lot because it looks and sounds great and the basic moveset and enemy encounters demonstrated frankly look quite good. as mentioned, i've already backed it and have already encouraged others to on and off of here. however, if it's designed like an even more open rockman x... that's not quite putting me at ease that it's going to be a solid ninja action game the likes of classics such as hagane, the super shinobi series, saigo no nindo, strider, ninja gaiden, etc.

is there any chance for an 'arcade mode' that strictly limits or removes the upgrades and keeps damage/encounter balance around a baseline? maybe you can earn just a couple of additional upgrades after beating certain bosses rather than finding them through exploration while in this mode, that way the player is confident each new area is designed with them in mind? i'd really like to see a deliberately paced, highly linear, and thoroughly challenging mode that ditches the variables that arise with numerous potential upgrades and a player's tendency to dawdle/backtrack/circle around both paths when they're given the option to.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by pixelarcstudios »

kitten wrote:
pixelarcstudios wrote:Hopefully that sounds good and relieves some of your worries! If you have any questions feel free to ask! :)
oh, hey, first of all: thanks truly for taking the time to drop into the thread. i'm surprised at how often devs tend to lurk this forum.

my problem with rockman x is that like pretty much every game with a significant amount of upgrades to accrue, finding where it is theoretically balanced leads to the conclusion that it isn't, really. each of the classic x games becomes far too easy and diluted if you pick up every upgrade and far too much a tedious slog without them. bosses inevitably start factoring attrition in with crueler and more punishing attacks and you end up with a scenario where without upgrades, the final boss is going to kill you in like two hits versus where if you have every upgrade it's going to kill you in a couple dozen. your health by the end of rockman x is doubled, damage dealt to you is halved, and you have five theoretical lifebars if your 4 sub-tanks are filled. that's literally twenty (two times two times five) times the amount of punishment you can take compared to the start of the game, minus a bit when you account that a sub-tank doesn't fill a full 32 points (i forget the exact number).

this tends to naturally lead the designer of each game making the final boss have a bunch of cruelly powerful attacks that are going to wipe an un-upgraded player out. i've played each of the first 4 games without upgrades to completion to see... it ain't fun and ain't satisfying. i'd struggle to even necessarily call it challenging - it's largely easy up until the endgame and then becomes a horrible slog as everything is suddenly tremendously inflated to account for how theoretically powerful you can be. lots of bosses in the game also fall into really easy to manipulate patterns where you alternate climbing up a side of the screen, jumping down and firing a charged shot, and then climbing the other side.

i tend to find that the rockman x games are largely attractive to people who want to dip their toes into action but still want the comfort of being able to tediously grind their way to victory almost like you would in an rpg. though there's some degree of competency required to get through them, a theoretical 20 times your starting health, increased mobility, and more powerful attacks to be found with upgrades tends to be more what a player ends up winning with than their skill. this is by design, not an accident. comparatively, i feel each of the classic rockman games (particularly 1-6) are balanced around the idea that the e-can is for a beginner player (as it's not even in the first game) and that everything should be designed around the baseline that you do not have them in your inventory.

bushiden interests me a lot because it looks and sounds great and the basic moveset and enemy encounters demonstrated frankly look quite good. as mentioned, i've already backed it and have already encouraged others to on and off of here. however, if it's designed like an even more open rockman x... that's not quite putting me at ease that it's going to be a solid ninja action game the likes of classics such as hagane, the super shinobi series, saigo no nindo, strider, ninja gaiden, etc.

is there any chance for an 'arcade mode' that strictly limits or removes the upgrades and keeps damage/encounter balance around a baseline? maybe you can earn just a couple of additional upgrades after beating certain bosses rather than finding them through exploration while in this mode, that way the player is confident each new area is designed with them in mind? i'd really like to see a deliberately paced, highly linear, and thoroughly challenging mode that ditches the variables that arise with numerous potential upgrades and a player's tendency to dawdle/backtrack/circle around both paths when they're given the option to.
kitten, you're welcome! I'm actually a "forum kind of guy", so popping in to chat with you all about the game is super fun for me :)

When I mentioned Mega Man X, I was really referring to the progression, exploration, and backtracking elements of that game. Currently, the design for Bushiden calls for the player to be able to upgrade from a baseline 50HP to a max of 200HP should they acquire all of the HP upgrades via the store and exploration. We don't have plans to include an attack damage multiplier for enemies/bosses based on the players "level" or HP amount. Considering we are only dealing with a max 4x increase in player HP, I believe there's certainly a sweet spot for difficulty we can hit without implementing a "level" system behind the scenes to affect enemy damage output. So, your desire for a damage/encounter balance designed around a baseline is already part of the design!

Regarding the upgrades from bosses.. these are things like the dash, phase shifting, gravity shifting, summons tech, shuriken tech, etc... Summons tech and shuriken tech affect combat the most, but using them will be completely optional and unlocking all of them will again require the player to do so via the shop and exploration. The other abilities will have far more of an impact on movement/traversal.

The arcade mode idea is cool, but that's just a matter of time and bandwidth. We'd essentially be designing two games and having to make sure every design decision we make works in both. Doable, but time-consuming. However, based on your list of concerns I *think* you will be pretty satisfied with the Bushiden when it's finished--as long as you can accept it's maybe not quite as linear as you're hoping.

Lastly, thanks for supporting us and spreading the word! We really appreciate it :)
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by kitten »

what you've got to say is frankly a lot more reassuring than i'd been expecting, honestly. i'm pretty heavily jaded by modern gaming and feel like this is much less a leap of faith, now.

if things go extremely well with the campaign and you find yourself over the goal (maybe a stretch goal?) or with room for the extra dev time, please keep an arcade mode or similar thing in mind, though. i'd be highly interested in it, even as potential dlc to come post-release.

- - - - - - - - - -
and, of course, good luck! Image
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by pixelarcstudios »

kitten wrote:what you've got to say is frankly a lot more reassuring than i'd been expecting, honestly. i'm pretty heavily jaded by modern gaming and feel like this is much less a leap of faith, now.

if things go extremely well with the campaign and you find yourself over the goal (maybe a stretch goal?) or with room for the extra dev time, please keep an arcade mode or similar thing in mind, though. i'd be highly interested in it, even as potential dlc to come post-release.

- - - - - - - - - -
and, of course, good luck! Image
Yep, we'll definitely keep that in mind. We've brainstormed a lot of things that would be cool to add to the game and increase its replayability. At the end of the day though we need to focus on making the base game great and then we can build from there!

Also, I had intended to mention this in my first post, but forgot... I think Steel Assault looks fantastic as well! I remember they caught a lot of flack when they revealed the change, but the "new" version of the game looks so much more interesting to me when compared to the original Kickstarter pitch video. Just my .02 ;)
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Durandal »

Biggest issue I have with metroidvanias is how the exploration element ends up being detrimental to the combat, often because you can find enough health upgrades to just tank through or because enemy encounter design is too limited in scope due to the need to keep things backtrackable. The upgrades you find often being glorified keys for gates instead of integral expansions to your moveset. That doesn't seem to be the case here when the world is already segmented into levels, the HP creep seeming to be relatively minor, and the upgrades also doubling as a tool in combat. Most of 'em, anyways.

Is Phase Shift only used for running over electric currents? Seems kind of a lame throwaway mechanic in that case (unless you have enemies which perform normally-unavoidable attacks which you have to phase shift correctly through), though I hope it doesn't lead to color-coded enemies like in DmC: Devil May Cry either.

If the gravity shifting instead of being used solely for platforming also gets integrated into combat through enemies which force you to shift gravity or who can shift gravity themselves then you will be my biggest friend. Ever since Alien Soldier have I been looking for a 2D action game which tackles gravity shifting in the same vein.

Will there be a New Game+ mode where the enemy placements in each level and the boss fights are redesigned from the ground up to make full usage of your entire unlocked moveset? I know you can revisit levels to access new areas with your new powers, but it's not quite the same when it turns the parts you went through first time into an absolute cakewalk. Especially in more arcade-sized action-oriented games like these where you unlock new powers over time I'm always miffed that the opening stages feel so restricted and sometimes boring in comparison to the later ones because you have yet to get most of your abilities.

Everything else looks pretty good, definitely back-worthy. When I first heard the trailer I thought I was listening to Yosuke Yasui.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by evil_ash_xero »

It looks good. But I do wonder how many Metroidvania's people are going to come up with?
I like the Strider influences.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by FinalBaton »

Good suggestion kitten with the more linear "arcade mode"! If time and money permits to the devs, of course. KS campaign stretch-goal maybe?

Also, nice seeing you here pixelarcstudios. we always appreciate when devs come on here to chat and ask for our feedback.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Strider77 »

Once I saw the physical tier, I backed it. It looks league's better than the typical derp that gets shoveled out. I'm okay with a metroid style game (I like Metroid at times), even if they are becoming a dime a dozen. This one looks more interesting.

The aesthetics are pleasing... things like Hallow Knight are just off putting (to me) in that regard.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by CKR »

I would back this project if it had an arcade mode. For now, I am wait and see.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Skykid »

Really nice for PixelArc to drop in and talk about the project. I feel very confident about everything I’ve seen and heard, to the point where this is the most promising KS indie game I think I’ve ever seen.

I understand the need for Metroidvania affects commercially because it extends the game length for more casual players who want to take it at their own pace. Personally I think a stretch goal arcade mode is an amazing idea and would probably help the campaign big time.

Good luck either way, looking forward to it.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by pixelarcstudios »

Durandal wrote:Biggest issue I have with metroidvanias is how the exploration element ends up being detrimental to the combat, often because you can find enough health upgrades to just tank through or because enemy encounter design is too limited in scope due to the need to keep things backtrackable. The upgrades you find often being glorified keys for gates instead of integral expansions to your moveset. That doesn't seem to be the case here when the world is already segmented into levels, the HP creep seeming to be relatively minor, and the upgrades also doubling as a tool in combat. Most of 'em, anyways.

Is Phase Shift only used for running over electric currents? Seems kind of a lame throwaway mechanic in that case (unless you have enemies which perform normally-unavoidable attacks which you have to phase shift correctly through), though I hope it doesn't lead to color-coded enemies like in DmC: Devil May Cry either.

If the gravity shifting instead of being used solely for platforming also gets integrated into combat through enemies which force you to shift gravity or who can shift gravity themselves then you will be my biggest friend. Ever since Alien Soldier have I been looking for a 2D action game which tackles gravity shifting in the same vein.

Will there be a New Game+ mode where the enemy placements in each level and the boss fights are redesigned from the ground up to make full usage of your entire unlocked moveset? I know you can revisit levels to access new areas with your new powers, but it's not quite the same when it turns the parts you went through first time into an absolute cakewalk. Especially in more arcade-sized action-oriented games like these where you unlock new powers over time I'm always miffed that the opening stages feel so restricted and sometimes boring in comparison to the later ones because you have yet to get most of your abilities.

Everything else looks pretty good, definitely back-worthy. When I first heard the trailer I thought I was listening to Yosuke Yasui.
Yeah, so we definitely will be incorporating the Phase Shift and Gravity Switch into combat. We haven't settled 100% on exactly how, but we have some ideas. The other thing to keep in mind with those abilities (and the Dash too) is that we can stack them in platforming segments (where you need to use all of them) to make for some pretty interesting/fun/unique sequences in the game!

We definitely would love to do a New Game+ mode! Since you can do the main 6 levels in any order (after beating the Prologue) the game already needs to be designed in a way that considers the player can have any of the possible upgrades at any time! This goes for level design, enemy encounters, AND boss fights!

Just want to say "Thanks!" to all of you commenting with kind words and I'm super happy to be here and discuss the game with you. I've spent years and years on forums discussing games and it's pretty damn cool to now be on forums discussing a game that I'm creating with people that are excited about it :)
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by spmbx »

Looks cool, but i’m not backing something with a projected completion date 2 years from now :)
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Ex_Mosquito »

This looks really decent actually, I like the movement of the main character and he appears to flow really nice. Very impressive. Also +1 for an arcade mode. I was wondering, how long would you say on average the game would take to complete on an average run without backtracking? 30/50mims would be a sweet spot for me to keep that nice arcadey feel.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by pixelarcstudios »

spmbx wrote:Looks cool, but i’m not backing something with a projected completion date 2 years from now :)
Understandable.
Ex_Mosquito wrote:This looks really decent actually, I like the movement of the main character and he appears to flow really nice. Very impressive. Also +1 for an arcade mode. I was wondering, how long would you say on average the game would take to complete on an average run without backtracking? 30/50mims would be a sweet spot for me to keep that nice arcadey feel.
Once you are familiar with the game... total estimate here, but I'm guessing somewhere around an hour--maybe a bit more.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Skykid »

@Pixelarc

I'm wondering why the completion date is so distant - it looks and sounds as though you have a lot of the game finished already (especially if you have an approximate idea of completion times etc?)

I could be totally wrong about this, but I'm worried that the 2020 date will hold some people back from pledging. It's a long wait.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Hagane »

Skykid wrote:I'm wondering why the completion date is so distant
All the pixel art is made by a single person from what I see. At that level of detail, it sounds like a reasonable date.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Skykid »

Wait, what? Pixelarc is one guy? Or there’s one guy doing the graphics? Either way I can see both of those factors contributing to the development length, but it totally depends how much of the game is actually realised at this point in time.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by spmbx »

The kickstarter page has a team description, see link in first post. For the lazy: 3 dudes, artist + coder + sound
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by Skykid »

Yeah that’s a small team.
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Re: Bushiden - Future Ninja Action Kickstarter

Post by pixelarcstudios »

Hey, guys! Yeah, small team and right now all of the art and animation is being handled by one guy. It takes a long time to make a full game with pixel art of this quality. I understand 2020 is far way's off, but... at least we are being honest about how long it's going to take? :)
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