Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

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evil_ash_xero
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Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by evil_ash_xero »

What's your opinion?

The Switch version has some mad lag. I played it docked, with a pro controller.
I then played the PS4 version (pro, to be exact), and it was much tighter.
They're gonna need to work on whatever the problem is with the Switch one.

I thought it was good. About a 7. Music was forgettable (and this is a problem, for a MM game).
I really liked the graphics. I just thought I would point that out, as I have heard some complaints. It's weird, as they look like the mock up graphics for Mighty No. 9, that everyone was jizzing over. Now, they don't like them. OK...
The stage could have looked more "interesting", but I liked the level design and graphics. So, good there.

What do you think? Think the game might turn out good? I'm worried it's gonna be "good", but not "really good". It's going to pistol whip Mighty No. 9, but that's not saying much. I would have liked something that could contend with Shovel Knight.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by JBC »

I gave it quite a few runs and like it alot. You're right about the music though, hopefully the other stages will be much better. The new slomo/power mechanic is pretty good & suprisingly doesn't feel out of place for the series. Challenge seemed right, I died alot ha. Visuals are fine & don't feel like a betrayal of what MM is.

Oh, played on Switch but didn't notice any lag. My TV has a mode that supposedly compensates for it though.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by BrianC »

I didn't notice lag with switch either, but I didn't get a change to try it in docked mode.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Sumez »

I didn't realise there was a demo out :O Downloaded it last night, but don't know when I'll find the time to play it.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by kitten »

it's fucking awful Image

ah, no, really, i quite hate it. a lot.

mechanically speaking, the new gear system is incredibly inappropriate and my worst fears were confirmed when playing on the demo that it is not a game designed without them in mind and merely added in for new players, but rather one designed to use them from the ground up. one of the first enemies you run into is an invincible wheel who can only be shot through a narrow and brief opening - the window is really hard to nail down without freezing time, but upon freezing time, he's a total joke that might as well be an igavania enemy that exists only to wait for death. there is almost no point to this enemy but to force you to turn on the new mechanic for a couple of seconds each time you see one.

the entire demo level is made incredibly trivial by short bursts of the slow time. any enemy or hazard that possesses an even conceivable threat to you is seriously reduced to nothing as the slow allows you to mash the fire button at full speeds while active and thus immediately crush your foe, and likewise any hazard is a joke when it's barely moving. the most amazing part? it has unlimited usage! while you can overheat on it, this only means you have to wait for it to go back down... and in a rockman game where forward momentum is more of a suggestion than an active force, this means you're naturally urged to handle every level segment in a burst of slow-down and then wait for it to come back. this is in contrast to bleed, a game i enjoyed and reviewed recently in the action game thread, which had constant urges for forward momentum and steadily applied pressure to make sure that the slow-mo meter was something you're almost never just stopping to recharge (this was even further accentuated by a style/scoring meter that punished you for most pauses).

immediately, the game reveals itself as an unbalanced mess that is going to require the player to play make-believe and create their own game for anything resembling a crafted difficulty, though i'm sure its defenders will deploy the ever-asinine "why don't you just play it opposite to the things designed into and around it if you want it to be good" defense. there's an enemy they must use no less than five times per level that literally just sits there and waits for you to kill it, only attacking if you come in range. only a single one of these enemies is placed in such a way that you have to react it in a timely manner, and, of course, you can just slow time and mash the fucker to death before he gets an attack off. even large enemies in classic rockman generally attack the second they're on-screen and pose SOME manner of impending threat!!!! the enemy becomes mildly threatening if you attempt to use them as a platform, but the reward for doing so is minimal in each instance and you also have rush coil, anyway.

Image

the shift to a 16:9 viewport is handled just as gracefully as my already scathing criticism of its failures would suggest: not at all. huge stretches of levels have nothing that can possibly attack you or so far away it will die before ever posing a threat, and there is almost nothing done to mitigate the loss of that compact viewport dictating encounters and hazards. this also ties back into how freakishly overpowered and stupid the ability to slow time on command is, as you can now see so far ahead of you that instances where you pop it in a bind and quickly react to something are now greatly limited.

the miniboss (which you fight twice) follows rockman 9/10 tradition in being a weirdly pesky mother fucker who seems strangely dangerous for what should frankly be a much lighter obstacle in an overlong stage. he's one of the only genuinely threatening things in the entire stage, and i even died on one of them. i will blame the switch's weird input lag when docked a little bit, here, but i did actually choke a bit. his pattern doesn't reliably leave gaps on his primary attack (the boss has a vaguely similar attack that does, which makes it weirder - frankly i feel like the minibosses are possibly more threatening than the boss) and the hitboxing was... weird. felt like it took up more space than it should have. you can clown on him if you get next to him and then spring a slow-mo, at least.

my second (and final) death was on the game's boss, who abruptly transforms into a humongous giant as he shifts into a weird desperation mode at half HP (and then suddenly... regains all of it). their attempt to add cinematic flair to the classic rockman fight is quite poor, at least in this specific boss's instance. while his attacks are hyper dangerous at first (because you have no idea what they're going to do and where the safe spots are), they're a joke with a little memorization and slow-mo application. the huge growth in size and sudden addition of a specific weakpoint feels incredibly out of line with rockman tradition, and his giant size means he's going on less of a pattern and more of just pulling one of three attacks with different safe spots (that kind of only reveal themselves after the attack). i mean, can you predict that the player jumping against the wall there would get them hit by that bizarre swing arc?

actually, let's gif that bullshit -

Image

and this, too. i mean he kinda runs into the knee but the safe spot is very ambiguous -

Image

rockman rockman for the PSP had 16:9, but i felt pretty well-retained most of the series' sensibilities and i wasn't particularly bothered by the addition of unlocks or the bosses having desperation modes. here, however, it feels really inappropriate as the desperation modes radically alter the flow of the fight and in the demo'd instance transform him into a very distinctly non-rockman fight. really didn't feel too good, honestly! a particularly weird detail is that you can now smack mettaurs with a charge shot to temporarily knock their hats off. this... virtually eliminates the entire purpose of them as enemies, because so long as you approach them with a charge shot, the baiting process otherwise required to kill them is now gone. this also - combined with the slow-mo - further accentuates stopping to address every new threat rather than maintaining a forward momentum. this game feels like it wants you to play rockman how a bad youtuber would.

hopes that the shop would be unobtrusive are quashed by there being a section in the pause menu devoted to 18 different upgrades, as well as a support item that halves your damage taken for the level. great! you know, i really liked rockman 8's shop, how all the currency was individual bolts rather than ones you farm off of enemies, and how each upgrade was a pretty subtle change to the game - not gonna bother holding my breath for a reiteration of something like that with an almost undoubtedly repurchasable half damage consumable and bolts dropped from enemies. bolts also count up into the hundred thousand digits, which is surely a good sign.

earlier, when i briefly called the level "overlong," i wasn't exaggerating. i'm going to link the IGN video again, where the player plays frankly decently enough that it's a good indication of a no-death jab at the stage. the video is more than seven minutes long. compare that to a video of nearly any rockman 2 stage being only about 3 (counting the intro & power get screen for both) and you're looking at what's probably going to be at least an hour and a half on a quick run (yeesh). rockman stages are fun because they're short, sweet, and packed. significantly more than double length is a reallllll bad sign.

the visuals are... frankly, not too bad, at least for the general aesthetic for the levels. the enemy models, however, are pretty high resolution but shrunk to really small sizes. this is a serious problem for some of them (and for your player sprite) because of how much this makes it difficult to immediately read what they're doing and whether they're vulnerable. that ring enemy from earlier? half the reason i can't tell when to shoot when he's rotating at normal speed is because he's viewed at a slight angle rather than perfectly from the side and it makes the opening very hard to read. i often couldn't tell what my rockman sprite was doing from looking at it, either. there's also too heavy a usage of lighting effects on certain things, which can help lend to poor readability (such as the mega buster charge effect or most shot effects from both you and enemies). not a fan of the robot master designs or rockman redesign, but those are trifling complaints compared to everything else.

the music i don't have much of an opinion about (it's trying a little too hard to fit some sort of ambiguously faux-retro feel, for sure), but the sound effects i hate. there's little distinction between a lot of key ones and poor audio balancing, so i have a hard time relying on audio feedback for if i'm hitting something or recovering health or what-have-you. not being able to visually read when i'm fully charged is one thing, but i had trouble determining that from the audio, too. i also thoroughly despise the voice work, which has some really inappropriate english voice selections and also had the boss quoting... pink floyd. o-okay. feel free to think i'm out of my goddamn mind, here, as i enjoyed the voices in 8.

i m h o, this is completely unsalvageable. i'd drop my pre-order, but an alien parasite planted worms in my brain that prohibit certain functions like self-preservation. i-i mean, i'm sure supporting the franchise will eventually lead it back on the right track. *coughing blood*

idk, i wouldn't even recommend this to people who like modernized stuff like hard corps: uprising (which i found to also be very bad but at least have a high skill ceiling in its upper end of play).

verdict: fuck this shit
Last edited by kitten on Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Sumez »

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt following your thoughts on Mario Odyssey, but what you're saying here pretty much confirms all my existing fears for the game, that I tried to avoid judging the game on, merely based on early footage.

From what I've seen the moment to moment stage design seemed to mimick classic Mega Man just fine, but I was worried about it not being able to pose a real challenge. Well, the challenge of original Mega Man games is definitely overblown, so as long as they are fun to play, and at least require me to react to some things, that's all good.
The other thing I was worried about, though, was the slowdown mechanic being, well, exactly how you describe it... If it's a resource you can use in a pinch, "fine". However, if it's a core mechanic you can use all the time, the game better be designed entirely around using it as a skill, and even then it wouldn't be a Mega Man game.
If it's just a "win button" that recharges on its own, it's pretty much the worst of both worlds. The fact that it sounds like it just recharges over time is pretty much a shortcut to the worst possible design you can end up with in a game like this, almost like they intentionally wanted it to be bad. An action game should absolutely never reward the player for standing still. What the hell.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by kitten »

Sumez wrote:I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt following your thoughts on Mario Odyssey, but what you're saying here pretty much confirms all my existing fears for the game, that I tried to avoid judging the game on, merely based on early footage.
oh, come the heck on. most of my criticism with odyssey had nothing to do with the core movement (which i did link video indicating i had quite a grasp on), but rather the mind-numbingly godawful repetition in collecting like nine fucking hundred moons. tell me that even a single one of those like 30 ground pound moons needed to be in the game, much less so many dozens of the others that offer you nothing new or exciting to do.
The other thing I was worried about, though, was the slowdown mechanic being, well, exactly how you describe it... If it's a resource you can use in a pinch, "fine". However, if it's a core mechanic you can use all the time, the game better be designed entirely around using it as a skill, and even then it wouldn't be a Mega Man game.
bleed handles a slowdown mechanic really, really well, and in a way i'd have not though would ever be conducive to 2d action. not a completely stellar game but pretty danged solid. rockman 11? no. absolutely not.

you know, i was reminded of the gamecube .EXE game, where you had a bunch of super powerful "chips" that would just recharge over a given interval of time. every time a really bad hazard was coming up, you'd just... kinda sit there and wait it for to recharge. this is nowhere near as bad as that, but it's a very similar problem.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Immryr »

kitten wrote:
Sumez wrote:I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt following your thoughts on Mario Odyssey, but what you're saying here pretty much confirms all my existing fears for the game, that I tried to avoid judging the game on, merely based on early footage.
oh, come the heck on. most of my criticism with odyssey had nothing to do with the core movement (which i did link video indicating i had quite a grasp on), but rather the mind-numbingly godawful repetition in collecting like nine fucking hundred moons. tell me that even a single one of those like 30 ground pound moons needed to be in the game, much less so many dozens of the others that offer you nothing new or exciting to do.
no one makes you collect all of the moons :)
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by kitten »

no one makes you play the game, either. sick and goddamn tired of that excuse when someone points out a chunk of bad design in a game that you don't have to play it, as if the option not to somehow forgives the game for including it as key design. the game gets tiring well before collecting all of the moons, there's no excuse for how many there are, nor how boring the honest-to-god majority are to get.

also holy shit can we talk about fucking rockman in the rockman thread
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Blinge »

I came here expecting kitten to tear it a new one.
I was not disappointed.

Cba to play the demo but knowing me i'd probably end up liking it after all :wink:
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Sumez »

Ok so I played the demo and it's honestly a lot better than I expected.
I think it might have something to do with having completely different ways to approach a Mega Man game, and I'm the kind of guy who never uses the robot powers unless I already have a tactic set in stone beforehand, and E-tanks are shame-tanks. The slowdown mechanic is definitely a "make the game easy" button, but the entire stage seems to be designed around not using it, with the only places "requiring" its use being to pick up otherwise bonuses such as an E-tank and a 1UP.
I also intuitively jump on/over every hammer guy instead of taking them out. It just feels more natural for me. I can imagine the stage being pretty easy if you make sure to constantly play it safe, but I'm just unable to play Mega Man like that. And to be honest I died a lot. Always from falling into hole though, because getting hit never does a lot of damage.

The level design totally feels like classic Mega Man. It has a nice flow that makes returning to the same sections a rewarding experience. My favourite part is the room with the falling rocks on conveyor belts, which feels good to nail in one continuous flow. I'm sure it gets trivialized by using the slowdown, but once again I couldn't bring myself to do it. I'm not seeing any problems introduced by the 16:9 aspect, and you're gonna get hit if you aren't on your toes. I also liked the knockback they added on damage. Seems a lot more offensive than typical for Mega Man, but it suits the game well.

I can't defend their design choices, especially the superfluous slowdown mechanic, but as far as I can tell it's absolutely possible to play this game and have fun.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Despatche »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Music was forgettable (and this is a problem, for a MM game).
Once again, 8 and 10 aren't too fond of this assessment.
evil_ash_xero wrote:I really liked the graphics. I just thought I would point that out, as I have heard some complaints. It's weird, as they look like the mock up graphics for Mighty No. 9, that everyone was jizzing over. Now, they don't like them. OK...
Well, you see the problem, people don't know what they want. They never have, and never will.
evil_ash_xero wrote:What do you think? Think the game might turn out good? I'm worried it's gonna be "good", but not "really good". It's going to pistol whip Mighty No. 9, but that's not saying much. I would have liked something that could contend with Shovel Knight.
8 and 10 are also called "good, not really good", even though they'd emerge as among the best games in this entire Mega Man thing if people actually sat down and examined the whole Mega Man name and everything it's worth. 8 is kinda starting to get the respect it deserves, I'm very pleased about that.

The correct takeaway is that 11 actually tries really hard to do something different and do it right, exactly what people were begging for the day 11 was announced, instead of just rehashing another game and playing it safe like everyone claims to hate. Yet here we are, just like with Mighty No.9, the fanbase is revealing itself to have no idea what they actually want and no idea what their precious series actually is. Eventually we're gonna get into full-on Touhou territory where the vast majority of fans "only like the characters and setting" and never actually play the games.

The reason why I'm so tired of "opinions" is because the entire modern understanding of opinion makes a mockery of that word as well as the word "fact". kitten's stereotypical giant walls of highly personal taste that somehow get worshiped by everyone as The Definitive Word On This Thing do nothing for me, and I'm glad the nonsense with Odyssey was called out as exactly what it is. People think I'm bad about Musha or whatever, but at least I have a damned point to make and something to actually back it up with.

It's a genuine shame, because kitten is otherwise often willing to say the things that noone else wants to. I guess that's just what ends up happening, you become an expert, but only a very specific kind of expert. Damn. I'm trying to avoid that.

Hm. This is kinda sounding like an offshoot of Scrolling Action Monogatari.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Sumez »

As for the graphics, I didn't find them interesting, but they worked really well. I don't recognize the issues with getting visual feedback from a fully powered charge. In fact, I think it's probably clearer here than in most other Mega Men (namely the X series with multiple charge levels, where it's often really unclear).
The controls were a bit different from classic Mega Man, so they tooked a little (very little) getting used to, but they are completely snappy. Except the slide feels awkward, and it's hard for me to pinpoint exactly why - but it seems delayed? Maybe that's where the reports of input lag is coming from. It's definitely nowhere near as smooth as the better of the NES games, and I never find myself playing around with it randomly as I would in them, rather only using it where it's completely necessary.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Ghegs »

I thought the stage repeated itself too much, on Normal at least. There were two fights against the miniboss and two vertical climbs with boxes on conveyor belts, both a bit harder than the first time it came up. The stage felt too long thanks to that.

I kind of forgot about the gears completely, it was still fairly easy to hit the wheel enemy even without the slowdown. I did wonder how I was supposed to get the E tank, I guess the answer was to slowdown, jump on a falling crate and go from there.

I didn't feel any lag on Switch either, but I only tried the demo out in handheld mode.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Despatche wrote:8 and 10 are also called "good, not really good", even though they'd emerge as among the best games in this entire Mega Man thing if people actually sat down and examined the whole Mega Man name and everything it's worth. 8 is kinda starting to get the respect it deserves, I'm very pleased about that.
8's a neat game. It isn't without issues, and the voice acting sucks, but gameplay and design are generally quite good. I have a few issues with the bosses, namely how enemies have a special animation when hit with their specific weaknesses. It doesn't just hurt them badly; it literally trivializes the main boss robots when you have the right weapon. Clown Man is the worst example of this I can think of as the right weapon literally prevents him from attacking. They're fun to fight with just the Mega Buster though, and the Wily bosses put up a decent enough fight.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by kitten »

Despatche wrote:they'd emerge as among the best games in this entire Mega Man thing if people actually sat down and examined the whole Mega Man name and everything it's worth

The correct takeaway

the fanbase is revealing itself to have no idea what they actually
i am absolutely assertive about my takes on games, but you will never hear me say that there is a "correct" take, nor will i tend to chide someone as "wrong" without feeling as though they're saying something demonstrably false (e.g. something provable - like if you were to say "this power cannot harm this enemy" when, in fact, it can). i have even once had a protracted argument with vanguard in the action thread about how i feel the word objective is wildly misused and that i don't believe opinions can be so, by literal definition.

there is a sense of comedy and occasionally self-deprecation i try to take to my hyperbole, but no matter how hard i'm asserting it, i avoid statements like what i've quoted above (i sometimes say things a bit like the third one [as i do hold the belief that modern gamers do not know what they want], but i am pretty sure you're actually just talking about me, there - the reception has been quite positive almost across the board). my above rant is obviously impassioned, but even with finding the game to be trash and considering it very far from where i position the heart, soul, or even facade of rockman, i say nothing like any of the three quoted things and even finish my thoughts with mention that i'd find the game hard or even impossible to recommend.

also, come on, i have probably "examined the [rockman] name and everything its worth" more than i have my ability to advance/operate as a cook or support role to my partner and it's poisoned my home life forever. disagree with me as strongly as you want, but do not accuse me of being unthinking about that series. my numerous e-tankless nomiss clears, my having been the no. 1 player of rm9 around release, my "mrs. perfect" challenge on rm10 - these were not products of shutting the brain off. my appraisals of games - positive or negative - almost always have a lot of though put into them, and with play history to back it up.
The reason why I'm so tired of "opinions" is because the entire modern understanding of opinion makes a mockery of that word as well as the word "fact".
your glass house! please, please exit it. the stones you are pitching are through your own windows and i am concerned for you.

man, i use the word "feel" numerous times in my post and in my posting history in general. words like "think" and "feel" are cornerstones of my bigger opinion posts. for some reason, you can't search for the word "think" with a specific author in mind, but i have used the word "feel" or "feels" a combined number of 321 times before this post, averaging a usage more than once every other post. comparatively, you've used them 191 times, averaging... less than once every 17 posts. this is by absolutely no means a definitive measure of which of us posts more consciously that their opinion is an opinion, but i choose my vocabulary pretty carefully and am quite rare to accuse of wrongness so much as what i feel is poor critical thinking.
kitten's stereotypical giant walls of highly personal taste that somehow get worshiped by everyone as The Definitive Word On This Thing
okay, uh, what the mother fuck are you on about? my criticisms almost unilaterally get more disagreement if they're even responded to, and are demonstrably getting more in this thread (you disagree, sumez disagrees, blinge thinks my post is worth a laugh but even says that he is probably going to disagree). they also attract really serious ad hominem when they mostly break down a game, not a person. how about the last time i posted in a rockman thread? yep, buncha people disagreeing with or even getting straight-up angry. i get this huge lump of anxiety in my chest checking the forum the next day after posting any of them and have literally left the forum for around half a year at one point because of how strongly almost everyone who responded to a particular instance disagreed with it (please see: kitten's akumajou densetsu disaster).

no one here thinks i have the definitive word, but i will bet you cash money that if you ask for a show of hands you'll find more people who consider my negative posts (ones that are not blaming a generic villain, e.g. "modern gaming/games journalism," which are sometimes liked) either - 1. comedy (which i do try to be deliberate about) or 2. full of wind - in the stead of finding them spot-on. take them with a grain of a salt if they're getting to you. i get the impression people like my positive posts a lot, tho.

i've always had a really hard time understanding why (historically speaking, even before this forum) it's always that people like my positive posts (sometimes a lot!) but haaaaaate my negative ones. i feel i take to them with a very similar energy and the same amount of effort, analysis, and thought. one of my best gaming buddies calls me and even addresses mail to me as "the sacred cow slayer," a joking title he gave me after finding a lot of my criticisms amusing. doesn't always agree with them (in fact quite frequently strongly doesn't), but he never feels i'm trying to shove my opinion down his throat. he's an outlier and i've never fully grasped why.
also come on the wall of text thing like completely for real (not a joke) hurts my feelings, i made gifs and put effort into it and everything Image

(p.s. 8 is one of my favorites and i've already gone on record for that)
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Sumez »

I'm surprised you were even able to make any sense of Despatche's post. Take my advice, and don't bother with his shitposting :P
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Despatche wrote:8 and 10 are also called "good, not really good", even though they'd emerge as among the best games in this entire Mega Man thing if people actually sat down and examined the whole Mega Man name and everything it's worth. 8 is kinda starting to get the respect it deserves, I'm very pleased about that.
8's a neat game. It isn't without issues, and the voice acting sucks, but gameplay and design are generally quite good. I have a few issues with the bosses, namely how enemies have a special animation when hit with their specific weaknesses. It doesn't just hurt them badly; it literally trivializes the main boss robots when you have the right weapon. Clown Man is the worst example of this I can think of as the right weapon literally prevents him from attacking. They're fun to fight with just the Mega Buster though, and the Wily bosses put up a decent enough fight.
I can't stand the move speed. Blue wasn't exactly the fastest kid on the block on the Nes, but in 8 it feels like you have to constantly slide to make half decent pace. The bosses also felt much less mobile to me compared to the first 3 games, to accommodate Rock's (lack of) movement. Puts me off from ever wanting to play it again.

Admittedly, I'm very sensitive to trudging movement. Can't stand Dracula XX / Raiden III / Dimahoo as Grimilkin or Solobang, etc.
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cj iwakura
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by cj iwakura »

I haven't played it, but it looks ugly as sin. I expected them to do another MM9/10 style game, not some Mighty No. 9 abomination.
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heli wrote:Why is milestone director in prison ?, are his game to difficult ?
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BIL
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by BIL »

Despatche wrote:Hm. This is kinda sounding like an offshoot of Scrolling Action Monogatari.
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Patchy, it sounds like shrill accusations with a side of masturbatory self-regard (speaking of things to avoid!) capped off by deeply useless radio silence.

I could be wrong though. I don't know Rockman nearly as well as Ninja Gaiden or Castlevania. Maybe kitten really is yet another ONE OF THEM. It has been a long, arduous con! Image
kitten wrote:okay, uh, what the mother fuck are you on about?
I know right! That is sure as fuck not how I would describe your post history. Maybe he has confused you with someone else. Image
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by evil_ash_xero »

cj iwakura wrote:I haven't played it, but it looks ugly as sin. I expected them to do another MM9/10 style game, not some Mighty No. 9 abomination.
I don't understand this. I know it's your opinion, and a few others feel this way. But I think it looks quite good.
It's got the cell shaded 2D thing going on, without looking like a Flash game. That's a tricky feat.
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Sumez
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Sumez »

The game doesn't look great, but I think it's entirely inoffensive. It's very simple looking, but that's all in service of the gameplay, so it's all good to me.
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kitten
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by kitten »

BIL wrote:Patchy, it sounds like shrill accusations
i'm not shrill ;-;

i've been wanting to talk about the game a bit more, actually. i feel like the most important chunk in my post is the gifs, which i feel are very illustrative of some of the game's problems without me even going into them (but i will, of course, anyway)
Spoiler
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there's some serious concession toward the artist going on in how unpredictable the movement in those attacks are. in the first one the player is backing off and doing a jump before the palm comes down, understandably preparing for a shockwave - then is hit by part of the arc i doubt anyone on earth would anticipate. second one demonstrates how much that knee hyperextension leaves the rather small safe spot spontaneously different than expected -

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the knee shoots forward almost two full... tiles? the animation looks good if put in a capsule and looked at strictly as an animation, but it is seriously hard to predict and badly caught me off guard (as it did this player, who had pretty clearly already done the stage a few times). the player has this really clear sense to move forward out of the punch's range, then gets a knee twice the size of their head square in the jaw for not having instead just inched forward a teensy bit. watch both gifs real close, too, they get hit by like a single frame of knee hyper extension and not even where it visibly ends up.

the demo level - even the boss fight - are seriously not hard, just (both) a bit exhaustingly long. the only real difficulty they have is on having to memorize the unpredictable (or to put the old slow-mo on), which i feel is very not-rockman and also just not conducive to solid action, in general.

i also feel like the lifebar might be weighted? which is infuriating. it feels like you take less damage the lower down on health you are, which compounds the complaint against poor feedback i mentioned earlier. i've played a lot of rockman and never felt like i had such an active disconnect from what my health was actually at versus what i expected it to be at. both of those above attacks seem like the same level of "mistake," but the damage to your life bar is really, really different. i'd highly appreciate someone going into this fight with full health, taking the hits in reverse order, and then seeing if it is different values or if there is a weighted difference to artificially inflate intensity or whatever.

Image Image < - - (refresh the page if these aren't synced)
(e.g. the slap does 9, the rock toss [not in gif but in video in my original post] does 2, the knee to the face does 5)

i mean there's a clear reality here that either the lifebar is weighted or the completely unpredictable slap arc for some reason does almost twice as much fucking damage. that's the slap doing a literal fraction short of a third of your lifebar, while the knee does closer to a 6th than a 5th. that knee is also a huuuugely predicated attack where he's even slowly gurgling "MEGA... MAN!!!" at you - you'd think the punishment for it would be more, not significantly less.

the boss also waits until he's at 18 health to transform, comes back with a full lifebar and entirely new attack pattern, then comes back again with 8 health and yet another new pattern after that is depleted. this is a single robot master of 8 and not even one of the wily stage bosses, why so complex and over-presented? i don't think it adds to the game at all (though i'm very thankful there aren't super lengthy transformation sequences). i think that during the third phase he cannot actually kill you, because he hit me a few times while i panicked (didn't realize i could shoot through his projectiles, suddenly) and knocked me down to an individual bar. or... maybe my health bar just became 5 times as useful in the final stretch, idk, i deleted the demo, someone check these things for me lol

if any of the new robot master fights are hard i feel convinced it's going to be through memorization or abusing slow-mo (which i'm again staking as being designed there from the ground up). i strongly feel like they should have kept them to a single form with maaaybe a new attack at 2/5ths health and just spruced things up a bit.

aaaaand to throw another complaint in the ring, i really don't like the slow-mo and super shot being on the shoulder buttons (or, again, present at all), i get confused enough doing active weapon switches, as-is. beyond thinking both are bad design choices, i feel like having more than one mode is overkill on top of that. map it to the top face button and don't leave me with 4 distinct shoulder buttons to use in a game where jump and shoot are the core functions.
That is sure as fuck not how I would describe your post history.
bil responding to my posts be like i'm like this
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BIL
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by BIL »

kitten wrote:i'm not shrill ;-;
I didn't mean you. :wink:

Ah, the perils of internet diplomacy. :shock:

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kitten
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by kitten »

oh right
Spoiler
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~Imagination and memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names~
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Sumez »

I played the demo a few more times, and the more I play it, the more I like it.

It's really subtle, but the level design does a lot of the right things that you'd expect from a Mega Man game, which is a really nice return to form following Inti Creates' complete misunderstanding of what a Mega Man game is.
I'm not saying it's ingenious or anything, in fact a classic Mega Man game is a really simple recipe, and as long as you don't fuck it up you should have a good game. But I'm enjoying how the game rewards the player for pushing through with a smoother flow, via thought out timing between the falling blocks and such.
And I really appreciate classic additions like the flying enemies that will start closing in on you as you start stalling at another obstacle. Not a threat by themselves, but by combining these obstacles you have a classic Mega Man situation. I feel like the designers knew what they were doing.
The demo is by no means "too easy", and I don't feel that it's any easier than your typical Mega Man game. However I'm glad to see there is a higher difficulty that is currently locked. Hopefully that one puts a severe limit on your gear power usage.

I agree that the stage is running a little long. It doesn't feel bad at all as a the only part of a demo, but it might be an issue in a full game, where I think the short stages is a big part of the experience. However, it's nowhere near as horrendeous as in Mega Man 9 and 10.


The only thing I really dislike about the demo is the boss fight, which is terrible.
Like Kitten said, having a robot master transform into a huge boss completely compromises the entire point of the classic robot master stages. And it's only made worse by the fact that this phase just plain sucks.
She's already gone into details about why the hitbox is terrible and how it prioritzes smooth animations over tactile feedback, so I'll just say that at least on this subject I absolutely agree with her statements.

The first phase which is reminiscent of a classic robot master fight is alright, even though it's a little too simple (but there's always at least one of those in any MM game), but it only lasts for like a few seconds, so it never really matters, even if you do get hit during it. And the final form which returns the boss to his normal size is a complete joke, as it pretty much just asks you to stand in the opposite corner and keep firing a charge shot with no threat to your health at all. Having that attack pattern integrated into the first phase of the boss instead, would easily improve both of them.
It's still a super easy fight, but that doesn't mean the unfair design of the giant form doesn't matter. Hopefully the other robot masters won't be as terrible.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Blinge »

Sumez wrote: The demo is by no means "too easy", and I don't feel that it's any easier than your typical Mega Man game. However I'm glad to see there is a higher difficulty that is currently locked.
Ha. This reminds me of an old playtesters story I heard. Apparently devs gated off the harder difficulties because when testers (or perhaps members of the public at events? I can't remmeber) tried the game, they'd choose the hardest difficulty more often than not. They'd then complain that it's bullshit or too hard.
I think the example was the dmc series.
She's already gone into details about why the hitbox is terrible and how it prioritzes smooth animations over tactile feedback, so I'll just say that at least on this subject I absolutely agree with her statements.
Sounds like classic megaman to me. I'm forever wondering how the fuck that hit me, or how is it even possible to avoid this stuff. :P (MM1-4)

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Obscura
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by Obscura »

So, when can we all stop pretending and finally admit to ourselves that Mighty No. 9 is actually the best game associated with the Mega Man franchise?
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Obscura wrote:So, when can we all stop pretending and finally admit to ourselves that Mighty No. 9 is actually the best game associated with the Mega Man franchise?
It's a masterpiece.
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Re: Anyone play that Mega Man 11 demo?

Post by soprano1 »

evil_ash_xero wrote:
Obscura wrote:So, when can we all stop pretending and finally admit to ourselves that Mighty No. 9 is actually the best game associated with the Mega Man franchise?
It's a masterpiece.
It's better than nothing. :wink:
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:I'll make sure I'll download it illegally one day...
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