Sonic Mania Plus announced. Physical release, Mighty & Ray!

[null1024]

I like what Megaplay Sonic 1 did, which was give you a really strict time limit for each act meaning you effectively had to speedrun the game to survive.

Man, I've never actually looked into it until now. Looks actually pretty cool.
plus, Labyrinth and Marble aren't here

As an aside, I've always wondered why shit like that wasn't an actual mode in the series, where you had to beat some low-ass time limit.
Admittedly, it doesn't really work too well for the long S3-style stages, where there's a lot to take in and you need to leave a lot of slop time if you don't want it to just be fucking maddening, but for shorter S2-length levels, it's perfect.

[Koa Zo]

As an aside, I've always wondered why shit like that wasn't an actual mode in the series, where you had to beat some low-ass time limit.
Admittedly, it doesn't really work too well for the long S3-style stages, where there's a lot to take in and you need to leave a lot of slop time if you don't want it to just be fucking maddening, but for shorter S2-length levels, it's perfect.

There is the Time Attack mode in Sonic CD. This is basically a practice mode for each level, but accomplishing a cumulative set time limit will unlock a couple bonuses.

[BrianC]

I like what Megaplay Sonic 1 did, which was give you a really strict time limit for each act meaning you effectively had to speedrun the game to survive.

Man, I've never actually looked into it until now. Looks actually pretty cool.
plus, Labyrinth and Marble aren't here

I never had a problem with Marble Zone myself, mainly because I had a soft spot for the level hazards. Also, M2 gave me a reason to re-purchase Sonic again. The Switch version includes the Megaplay version!

[null1024]

I never had a problem with Marble Zone myself, mainly because I had a soft spot for the level hazards.

I've grown to tolerate Marble... but act 3 still fucking sucks.
in fact, most of the third acts in Sonic 1 are some degree worse than the other two

Also, M2 gave me a reason to re-purchase Sonic again. The Switch version includes the Megaplay version!

For real? That's actually dope as shit.

[BrianC]

I've grown to tolerate Marble... but act 3 still fucking sucks.
in fact, most of the third acts in Sonic 1 are some degree worse than the other two

Funny thing is that a couple of the GG/SMS Sonics are more stingy with rings and Sonic 2 GG/SMS even has a couple bosses that have to be fought without them, IIRC. Sonic 1 and 2 GG/SMS also have very short act 3 stages with a short area and a boss, IIRC.

For real? That's actually dope as shit.

yeah, I read about it on a couple news sites like Nintendolife. I do wish Gain Ground AC was one of the first batch, though. Sonic 1 and Thunder Force IV are the first two and they are supposed to be coming out next month in Japan. I hope M2 doesn't make us wait like they do with some of their other stuff.

[Sumez]

Waaait? This is the first time I've heard that about the MegaPlay version. A friend of mine has the Mega-Tech one, and as far as I can see, that is completely identical to the console version.

Honestly, you're about a year too late on this one.

How does that change things though? If the game was the same at release. I held out for a physical release, and it paid off.
Though I guess an extra year of people playing and hyping the game of course counts for something. I've spoken to people who genuinely think Sonic Mania was the best game of 2017.

Most of the praise is because it actually gets what made oldschool Sonic work right. It doesn't really rock the boat at all. It's more of what you loved, but with better graphics and sound, like a 1995 release that never was. And it deserves the praise for that.

This is what I recognize, and what I hoped for, and even what I expected popping in the game. But once I got it, that's when I started thinking - Is this really what I wanted? Hence my post. I'm starting to think Sonic Generations is objectively a much better game than any of the classic games.

Mania also doesn't have a single stage that has as much "what the fuck why did I get hit" as say, S3's Marble Garden.

Sure it does, if not even more. Again, it might be a question of me having played those stages a lot more, but Marble Garden is in fact one of my favourite Sonic zones. In my impression S3 did fix a lot of that issue actually. Sonic 1 was terrible with it, and despite that Sonic Mania decides to bring back classic assholes such as the bees that fire irregularly, and the sniping chameleons. And of course Chemical Plant Zone has moving platforms that will just crush Sonic and kill him instantly if you aren't aware of how they are moving ahead of time. I don't get why it's so hard to not have this stuff. Maybe it's impossible to add something reminiscent of a challenge without it, and then you have the crappy Sonic Advance games?

[Marc]

They're a funny one, the Sonic games. I mean the first two - the first especially, tickle my nostalgia in all the right places. Yet, when I come to play one these days, I generally call bullshit and turn them off after the first Zone. I'd been thinking it might be over familiarity, so was planning on picking this up, but Sumez has pretty much summed up the thoughts that have been lurking around the back of my mind regarding the series as a whole. Was fun while it lasted, but never really developed in any meaningful way, while even the weaker Mario games I tried had something that made them worth a few hours. Intended to get the pysical of this, but probably end up picking up the base game when I'm drunk and it's on a half price sale.

[Sumez]

I forgot the thing that possibly annoys me the most about the game. Like they started doing in Sonic 2, every time you hit a signpost with more than a certain number of rings - I think like 30 or so, which makes it pretty much every signpost you ever hit - you get to play a bonus game.

That stuff is fine in something like Sonic 3, where they mix it up, and most of them are super short like the gumball machine, etc.
But in this one, you get to play the blue spheres minigame, ie. the one that got you emeralds in S3. However, here you just get some kind of coin I have no idea what is for (I think it unlocks omake stuff), and almost all of them take as long as the ones that were added in S&K. I actually like that minigame, but throughout the time spent on any single act, you'll probably end up spending more of it playing blue spheres than actual 2D sonic.

The only real way to deal with that terrible break of pace is to intentionally avoid taking the minigames, which just feels absurdly counterintuitive.
I have no idea what they were thinking. :\

[ryu]

When I was I kid I often played the bonus stages in Sonic 3 to collect extra lives. The blue sphere game really isn't very good for that purpose however.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I've grown to tolerate Marble... but act 3 still fucking sucks.
in fact, most of the third acts in Sonic 1 are some degree worse than the other two

Funny thing is that a couple of the GG/SMS Sonics are more stingy with rings and Sonic 2 GG/SMS even has a couple bosses that have to be fought without them, IIRC. Sonic 1 and 2 GG/SMS also have very short act 3 stages with a short area and a boss, IIRC.

For real? That's actually dope as shit.

yeah, I read about it on a couple news sites like Nintendolife. I do wish Gain Ground AC was one of the first batch, though. Sonic 1 and Thunder Force IV are the first two and they are supposed to be coming out next month in Japan. I hope M2 doesn't make us wait like they do with some of their other stuff.

All of the 8 bit Sonic 1/2 act 3s have no rings and a boss (except Scrap Brain in Sonic 1, which has 99 rings amd no boss). They're not always that short and easy either - Sonic 2 Green Hills is a gauntlet of springs and spike traps, Gimmick Mountain has precise platform timing surrounded by spikes. Both have bosses that require careful timing as the fight goes on, so one mistake and it's back to the start.

The first two 8 bit Sonics are massively underrated. The generally shorter, smaller levels are less frustrating for speed runs but also more satisfying for pure platforming. Bosses actually require you to get good. I'd say Sonic 2 is marginally superior were it not that it hands out lives left, right and centre - and extra life boxes respawn on death, whereas in Sonic 1 you could only break each one once per playthrough.

[null1024]

The only real way to deal with that terrible break of pace is to intentionally avoid taking the minigames, which just feels absurdly counterintuitive.
I have no idea what they were thinking. :\

You go in, get what you want, and get out. Or ignore it, which is what I realized plenty quick as a kid. You specifically have to stop, let it open a bit, and then jump in if you're interested.

I've grown to tolerate Marble... but act 3 still fucking sucks.
in fact, most of the third acts in Sonic 1 are some degree worse than the other two

Funny thing is that a couple of the GG/SMS Sonics are more stingy with rings and Sonic 2 GG/SMS even has a couple bosses that have to be fought without them, IIRC. Sonic 1 and 2 GG/SMS also have very short act 3 stages with a short area and a boss, IIRC.

All of the 8 bit Sonic 1/2 act 3s have no rings and a boss (except Scrap Brain in Sonic 1, which has 99 rings amd no boss). They're not always that short and easy either - Sonic 2 Green Hills is a gauntlet of springs and spike traps, Gimmick Mountain has precise platform timing surrounded by spikes. Both have bosses that require careful timing as the fight goes on, so one mistake and it's back to the start.

The first two 8 bit Sonics are massively underrated. The generally shorter, smaller levels are less frustrating for speed runs but also more satisfying for pure platforming. Bosses actually require you to get good. I'd say Sonic 2 is marginally superior were it not that it hands out lives left, right and centre - and extra life boxes respawn on death, whereas in Sonic 1 you could only break each one once per playthrough.

I think S2 8-bit is fucking pants, myself. I've always hated the stages and bosses. Had it as a kid on GG, hated it because of the first boss on the tiny GG screen. Played the SMS version years later... and it turns out that I really don't like the rest of the game either. Almost willing to say that Sonic Blast is better [admittedly, it's quite a bit better than a lot of people like to say, despite still being a fairly poor game]. Almost.

S1 8-bit though... that game's brilliant. It's just a really solid platformer. It's slow, but it pulls the pace up sometimes. Whenever I play it, I'm reminded that not being able to re-collect rings would probably have been a better choice in general, although S1 8-bit's somewhat slower pace plays well with that.
It'd kinda really suck for huge chunks of say, Sonic 3.
Always did think the no-ring [or in Triple Trouble, you had to look off the main path for 'em] bosses on the 8-bit games was a good idea, too. Made 'em a threat, much more than their 16-bit counterparts.
It's got cool music and nice stages and it's just a solidly made game that doesn't do anything too wild and is all the better for it because it's really competent.

as an aside, there were way too few spots in Sonic in general where you go without rings for an extended period of time [there's like one bit in Marble, and you get two shields along the path]
if they weren't quite so frequent, there'd be an actual aspect of challenge in areas that weren't just full of bottomless pits, which is what Dimps ended up trying because they probably realized that it was way too hard to die in Sonic

...and that reminds me: if there's one thing Mania actually buggers up hard, it's the way rings move when hitting walls -- in Mania, it'll bounce back properly, so it's almost impossible to really lose rings in an enclosed area. In S1-3&K, rings have a tendency to fall straight through the ground [this felt like bullshit when it happened, if mainly because it 's super inconsistent and it's got something to do with what the collision type of the wall is], or if they hit the side of a wall, they're snap to the surface, far up an away [this seemed deliberate and was consistent].
It was a lot easier to actually lose your rings, and the removal of the latter [which was consistent, predictable, and in some cases still let you get to the rings if you chased 'em] makes certain scenarios way easier for no reason.

[Sumez]

The only real way to deal with that terrible break of pace is to intentionally avoid taking the minigames, which just feels absurdly counterintuitive.
I have no idea what they were thinking. :\

You go in, get what you want, and get out. Or ignore it, which is what I realized plenty quick as a kid. You specifically have to stop, let it open a bit, and then jump in if you're interested.

You realise I'm talking about Sonic Mania, right? And not Sonic 3.
Sonic 3 did it right - you pop in, get your powerups, and proceed with the stage. In Mania it's pretty much get all the blue spheres (which can take a long time, and is rarely hard), or you might as well not play it at all.

[null1024]

You realise I'm talking about Sonic Mania, right? And not Sonic 3.
Sonic 3 did it right - you pop in, get your powerups, and proceed with the stage. In Mania it's pretty much get all the blue spheres (which can take a long time, and is rarely hard), or you might as well not play it at all.

Ah. Usually just didn't bother with blue spheres in Mania, unless I felt like playing Blue Spheres, since it doesn't do anything for the game in progress.

I thought you were talking about the new pinball game in Encore mode, which is still a lot clunkier than the gumball machine by far.

[Strider77]

The only real way to deal with that terrible break of pace is to intentionally avoid taking the minigames, which just feels absurdly counterintuitive.
I have no idea what they were thinking. :\

That it's optional... and the way to not play them is pretty intuitive.

I don't get why it's so hard to not have this stuff.

For the same reason Cave shooters don't have a rewind button. It sounds like you are really blaming the game versus yourself alot here. The game isn't harsh... even obtaining the chaos emralds isn't that hard. Relax... enjoy the game, you waited a year to play it, take the time to get decent at it. I found it fare... even leaniant at times.

[M.Knight]

Avoiding the minigames once you know how to may be very natural and it's good that you can skip them, but when I tried Sonic Mania, I saw one of those lampposts that looked like a checkpoint so I ran towards it, and suddenly, annoying sphere mini-game time for me.
It's absolutely not intuitive if you haven't been fooled at least once.

[Sumez]

That it's optional... and the way to not play them is pretty intuitive.

Yeah, I address that precisely in the bit you are quoting. It's not a dealbreaker to me, but I think it's really dumb design to have something presented as a "reward" (reaching a post with a certain number of rings) if you aren't meant to take it. Obviously you are meant to take it, and it breaks the pace.
I even enjoy the blue sphere games in this one, they are much longer, and mostly better thought out than the ones in &Knuckles, and some of them are fairly challenging too, especially compared to 3&K where they were all absurdly easy. So I want to play them. But I can't just do it at my own leisure, I only have specific chances to do it throughout each act, so I don't want to pass on the chance. But it still breaks the pace.
It could be handled better, there's no denying that. Sonic 3 handled it much better.

For the same reason Cave shooters don't have a rewind button. It sounds like you are really blaming the game versus yourself alot here. The game isn't harsh... even obtaining the chaos emralds isn't that hard. Relax... enjoy the game, you waited a year to play it, take the time to get decent at it. I found it fare... even leaniant at times.

I'm not sure how you can possibly compare a tightly designed 30 minute arcade shooter with what could best be described as a fun casual romp.
The game isn't hard at all, and I never implied that.The reason it isn't hard though, is that taking a hit almost never kills you. The game has obstacles but they are mostly pointless.

Imagine if any hit that would normally relieve you of your rings (ie. being hit without a shield) immediately took a life and put you back at the last checkpoint - like most classic platformers would. The game would probably still be quite manageable, but it would also suddenly be absurdly prone to pure trial and error, and stuff that just feels dumb right now would end up being completely rage inducing due to the game's poor design. I feel a better comparison is a euroshmup's lifebar compensating for undodgeable patterns.
Like I said, the game is extremely likeable in every other way, so I don't understand why it needs to have situations like those.

[Leandro]

Is it even worth buying this DLC? Finished Sonic Mania last year with both characters and all Emeralds... It was ok, but... Game was just good but nothing amazing.

[Strider77]

I'm not sure how you can possibly compare a tightly designed 30 minute arcade shooter with what could best be described as a fun casual romp.

Because I don't think games that aren't 30 minute arcade shooters have to be that casual of a romp. I assumed moving platforms would squash and holes could be death. I don't expect to ace the game when I'm first experiencing it. I don't think it really needs to ban all insta kills considering how forgiving the whole ring system is already. This game isn't hard, I never found myself having to repeat stages a ton over deaths. It's already far more casual difficulty wise in comparison to the MD titles.

Obviously you are meant to take it

No more than every ring or poweup... it's there for you to take or not take. If you beat them and get medals, that will unlock stuff. It DOES reward you for getting them. You can unlock the "Super Peel-Out" from Sonic CD, "Insta-Shield" from Sonic 3, "& Knuckles" mode, Mean Bean Machine and a few other things. You ARE rewarded for getting and accumulating the medals.

You CAN do them at your own pace. I started working on them after I beat the game. You can choose any stage you want after you beat the game and work on it. You don't even HAVE to use a particular post to get a medal. You could keep trying for them anywhere, it doesn't work that way. It's not like a medal is assigned to a specific post and you can only get it at that specific spot in the game. Same goes for the chaos emeralds. It works like Sonic 3 did.

Just relax, enjoy the game. You won't have to do it all in your first run. You won't have to play all the way through it again to accumulate everything. You mentioned Sonic Generations.... it's a similar situation with the red star rings in that game.

It's absolutely not intuitive if you haven't been fooled at least once.

It's worked that way since Sonic 2... if you have enough rings you jump into the sparkling thing that appears above it. It's pretty intuitive. Don't jump in it. I wouldn't call having to do something once in order to understand how it works "not intuitive". In fact I'd say one time to comprehend it IS pretty intuitive.

[M.Knight]

I haven't played Sonic 2 or the later Sonic games and my perspective is from someone who doesn't know that much about the series. All I am seeing is that this game that is supposedly all about speed and fast pacing wrecks its already shaky flow to give me a mini-game I didn't ask for when I thought I was hitting a checkpoint. And there's absolutely nothing about the indicator that tells me beforehand that if I touch it, I'll be sent to to such a mini-game. Sure, once you know about it, you'll avoid it, but it's kinda like the "Gotcha!" moments in shmups, and those definitely aren't amusing.

[Strider77]

This "gotcha" moment doesn't kill you.

If you want unintuitive, try Galuga 2.... it's quite good.

[soprano1]

Gameplay and nostalgia is good and all, but I think the best thing that came out from Mania was the music. Both the new arrangements for the old tracks, as well as the new tracks, are deliciously good.

[M.Knight]

Well, apparently I jumped into it. There were some shiny stars on top of it so of course it grabbed my attention and I jumped into them, thinking that it was needed to validate the checkpoint, could give me a power-up/bonus rings or whatever, but defintely not throw me into a mini-game. No, it's not one of the simplest video game things there is, and I don't see how a human brain can, instinctively and without any fore-knowledge, associate some shiny stars in a platforming game with a sphere grabbing mini-game. Again, once you know it, it's obvious. But if you don't, enjoy your blue spheres.

Even though this moment doesn't kill me, well, it still killed my attention and interest. Anyway, what I was referring to is the disappointing feeling of not having being properly warned of what this element does (or in the case of a shmup what attack is going to happen) and knowing that whatever penalty we get (the mini-game here or a life loss for a shmup) is entirely the game's fault.

Also, I really don't get your comparisons with Galuda 2 and fighting games. Neither of those games have an equivalent to that pace-killing, poorly telegraphed distraction.

As for the speed, I agree that autoscrolling parts where the game is playing the levels for you are also not very good. But a platforming game can be fast-paced without devolving into that I think.

[Strider77]

best thing that came out from Mania was the music.

It is quite catchy. I bought the Japan version for that (Japan) style MD cover and the two disc soundtrack.

Does this pull the camera back a bit?

Yes, I'd say so. The 16×9 aspect ratio does that by it's nature.

This and the 3rd one (linked to S&K) are my favorites.

[null1024]

Even though this moment doesn't kill me, well, it still killed my attention and interest. Anyway, what I was referring to is the disappointing feeling of not having being properly warned of what this element does (or in the case of a shmup what attack is going to happen) and knowing that whatever penalty we get (the mini-game here or a life loss for a shmup) is entirely the game's fault.

there's no penalty
this isn't an attack
it neither negatively affects your score or your time

beyond the initial "huh, what is this item" period, where beyond a literal written explantion [like this one, in the game's PDF manual] or a tutorial before the game, there really isn't any way to show the player what's going to happen, so the easiest way is through straight experience

[Strider77]

my perspective is from someone who doesn't know that much about the series.

My perspective is... if you admit you dont know that much about the series, wouldn't you expect having to learn a few things about it when playing it for the first time? That's generally how things work.

How could the human brain, instinctively and without any fore-knowled, perceive that a mushroom makes you able to to break bricks with your head the first time encountering it in Mario? Sure, you could be told it does that beforehand. But other than that, you have to get it and see what happens. Pretty normal gaming procedure.

Both situations were some of the easiest things to figure out in my gaming life.

Also me: stay away from Alien Soldier, you'll hate it.

[BrianC]

Even though this moment doesn't kill me, well, it still killed my attention and interest. Anyway, what I was referring to is the disappointing feeling of not having being properly warned of what this element does (or in the case of a shmup what attack is going to happen) and knowing that whatever penalty we get (the mini-game here or a life loss for a shmup) is entirely the game's fault.

there's no penalty
this isn't an attack
it neither negatively affects your score or your time

It's definitely not like the mini game in Sonic Adventure's casino level. That one is especially perplexing. Time counter isn't stopped, and playing it takes up more time than it should due to overly long scenes of Sonic going through tunnels or ramps (or something along those lines).

[M.Knight]

Yeah, I know I am overly harsh against that little feature, and had I played this at home in its intended environment, I probably wouldn't have felt as annoyed as I did while playing this at a convention while trying a bunch of games without necessarily having any emotional investment in them (kinda like when you try random games in an arcade I guess).

Despite the whole thing being harmless, playing the mini-game in itself felt like a penalty to me and I think another big reason it really rubbed me the wrong way is that there isn't (AFAIK) a way to opt out of the mini-game once you realize you are in one. While Wario Land 3's inclusion of mini-games within its levels is a bit more annoying since those are mandatory for some treasure chests, at least, the rooms tell you "GAME" and "GOLF" in big letters while giving you the possibility to decline the mini-game and resume platforming. Something like this here would have put the entire burden and responsibility of having to play the mini-game on me and me alone.

[Kobayashi]

Sonic Mania is fantastic and deserves all the praise it has received. The development team did everything right and exceeded my expectations. A work done with love always results in sweet and tasty fruits to the palate.

It's sad, however, that in a parallel way certain people have turned a blind eye to Sonic Forces who has suffered injustice in my understanding. The player-avatar concept introduced is innovative, interesting and was well implemented within the game. In my opinion, Forces is a beautiful and fun game that deserves to be played.

[Sumez]

Sonic Forces who has suffered injustice in my understanding.

Sega made some really great 3D Sonic games up until they started going in a different direction, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Or, well, they made Generations, but that game is great. Much, much better than Mania.

The player-avatar concept introduced is innovative

Wait what

[null1024]

I think custom characters are a good idea.
Unfortunately, Forces doesn't really let you do enough. Hell, one of the big things about Sonic character design is the fact that they've usually got some kind of accent color on the chest., which breaks up the solid chunk of color that'd be there otherwise.

naturally, the avatar doesn't get this, and Sega doesn't really give you any way to rectify this other than to put clothes on
It's a bit of a mess, because the only real thing you can do is look like a cosplay reject.