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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:26 pm 


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qmish wrote:
p.s. there was some other doujin game that was "oh good!" from recent 5 years or so?


Bananamatic wrote:
battle traverse


Battle Traverse is an absolutely underrated gem, indeed. Most fun I've had in a long time with a shmup, and it was the typical 10 bucks when it came out.

Concerning Aka to Blue: I've played the mobile, still dislike the art style. But other than that: let them bring it on for arcade. If it works for them and everyone else, by all means, go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:28 pm 


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I'm still hoping Danmaku Unlimited 3 and Graze Counter get some sort of arcade treatment. And yeah, Battle Traverse looks like one of those games that really deserves more exposure than it got (I don't think I was paying attention to the doujin scene in 2015, swamped with IRL stuff at the time)


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:30 pm 


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Oops, not original, gaiden of course :oops:

As for "western indie" shmup titles, perhaps its easier to count "most appreciated" ones out of them as everything other is looked upon as "trash made in unity3d" because.. some of them are not good, and some are better but people wont play them. How many people play Vector Strain for example? Though it managed to get even some good reviews in japanese.

p.s.
Also what confuses me, like Ebbo's FINALBOSS game. My friend thought that demo was complete game, and was nearly shocked when heard that its w.i.p.
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:48 pm 


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Barba wrote:
Concerning Aka to Blue: I've played the mobile, still dislike the art style. But other than that: let them bring it on for arcade. If it works for them and everyone else, by all means, go for it.

I thought it looks great and the soundtrack is really good but the stage design looks nothing like cave and the insane boss milking ruins the whole thing
battle traverse and rolling gunner are kinda lacking in the presentation compared to it (though the second one is still getting upgrades in that department) but if you want the cave gameplay experience it's far better
the issue is that even if they fixed the A&B gameplay and ported it everywhere, it would be still almost a guaranteed failure


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:55 pm 


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Quote:
astebreed, battle traverse, blue revolver, probably some more? possibly aero chimera and danmaku unlimited 3?


All good to mention, the problem is that i can't remember that specific shmup i saw here. I remember it having sakuras? Or something like that in visuals. Not sure though if it was release or just a demo.
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:15 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
and the insane boss milking ruins the whole thing


Let's see what the actual changes of the arcade edition are.
Maybe they revamped the scoring, like earlier "Black Label" editions of previous games. (not claiming every BL edition is actually better, but they did touch scoring systems when applying changes before, so maybe they took some of the user feedback to heart).


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:59 pm 



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How does boss milking ruin the entire game? Just because a scoring system is flawed doesn’t mean the entire game is awful.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:25 pm 


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scoring is what you do after 1ccing (which apparently is doable on your first credit in this game)
if the scoring sucks, you move on and play something better
so yes, it is kind of important if you care about replayability


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:38 pm 


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Pretty sure Shou already mentioned they're taking feedback, and the version they showed was rushed. The arcade version should be rebalanced for arcades.

viewtopic.php?p=1301679#p1301679

I agree that if they were just going to dump the mobile version into arcades and call it a day, that'd be pretty bad. But that's obviously not the case here.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:27 am 



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Bananamatic wrote:
scoring is what you do after 1ccing (which apparently is doable on your first credit in this game)
if the scoring sucks, you move on and play something better
so yes, it is kind of important if you care about replayability


Oh, guess I never really looked at it that way (mostly because I don’t care about scoring in most games).

But at least they’re actually fixing the scoring.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:21 am 


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Any possibility of that sweet bananamaku on the Exa?
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:58 am 


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Dave_K. wrote:
Any possibility of that sweet bananamaku on the Exa?


Who knows???? :)
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:27 am 


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One thing of note about the lack of interest on mobile / doujin, then big hype on console and arcades..

It's just sadly people's perception, although the sheer signal to noise ratio and bad rep of microtransactions on mobile does at least give some logic to that one side of the issue.

Perception of value also comes into play.. An indie PC game has a lower percieved value than when it is presented on a "high quality" gaming platform like the switch, or an arcade platform.

No different to :
Your friends having no interest in your favorite obscure indie band until they hit the charts.
The housewife choosing a branded washing powder over a virtually similar cheaper product, even though the higher price of the branded one comes from advertising.
Your average 2Hu fan that will ignore any other shooter regardless of quality or gameplay.

You can't force people to change their own subconcious biases, sadly. We all have them, to varying degrees.
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:59 am 


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Mobile also has the problem that you're playing a shmup with touchscreen controls. Also the marketplaces are absolutely flooded and discoverability is pretty much nonexistent. Steam also has a discoverability problem, but not to the same extent.

I think microtransactions aren't all that bad depending on how they're integrated - inserting a credit into a coin-op arcade is a sort of microtransaction, after all. If it helps maintain a sustainable income from a loyal playerbase, then go for it. Honestly makes more sense than charging everyone a fixed one-time price of entry.

I'm not sure if people outside this forum and other arcade fan communities really perceive "arcade" as a "high quality" gaming platform - at least in the west, there's a not-insignificant amount of people who see arcade games as either a relic of the past, or simple quarter-munchers lacking lasting value, or both.
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:27 am 


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One of the reasons arcade is more immediately interesting to some people is because it almost guarantees a lot of rules in game design that don't have to be in console/PC that shooting game fans like, such as the assumed difficulty level. And a lot of people *do not want* things like pause buttons in a game because it's an invitation to cheating six ways from Sunday like taking a breather to let your nerves cool (cheating!) or pausing with a bunch of stuff on screen and sitting there thinking about what to do when you unpause. That's absolutely cheating. Now you have an uneven playing field just off a pause button. If you pause during a game should that even be submittable for high score against an arcade game score? Absolutely not. You have to put your nerves through the same thing that arcade gamers did or enjoy your hiscore with an asterisk. That's how I see it anyway.

Novice modes are also usually a bad idea aside from their ability to increase people's perceived purchase value thus more sales. They have a false perception attached to them that they are the way to get better quicker but the opposite is true. Playing easier versions doesn't make you get better quickly. Playing harder versions does. Maybe you could understand rules a little quicker but your actual dodging skills will get better from playing hard stuff. Could you eventually get better while playing novice modes? Sure. Will you get better quicker if you crank up the difficulty instead and play that for a while then go back to normal mode? Yes. To the point where people can't even play Mushihimesama 1.5 normal modes anymore after beating the Max modes because it becomes under-stimulating and like slow motion. The game should practically come with a warning sticker saying "beat the normal modes first".


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:12 am 


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I think we should charge for every run done on a console port because not having the nerves from possibly wasting real money on a botched run is also cheating. Or maybe we should just not derive value from preventing other people from playing games the way they want to, and focus on playing them ourselves the way we want to. Besides, as long as you restrict the most egregious forms of pause abuse (e.g. by setting a time limit between pauses) the advantage gained from pausing has hardly ever proven significant in practice. It's certainly a lot less significant than many other factors you can't even control. And anyway everybody playing on a console port has the same playing field when it comes to pauses.

Novice modes aren't solely a tool for getting better quicker, some people just don't want their games to be as hard as possible. That said, a lot of novice modes are thrown in as an afterthought and aren't that great. Or maybe it's the original games that aren't great because once you strip away the raw difficulty and the inherent appeal that provides, there's nothing left.
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Last edited by Shepardus on Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:13 am 


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dunno about cave novice modes, but CCWI's novice is still feeling harder than most mainstream games, especially starting from stage 4 :lol:

also, are you against for new players to have those "easier" modes as they first 1ccs?

p.s.
that talk about pause abusing is same as unlimited credits. its up to what you do - playing seriously or having silly fun/practicing.

also for example i always thought that absense of pause button in dark souls is more a shitfucked unnatural scum shit - mean, your father calls your door ring or explosion on kitchen happens and you cant pause game what a bullshit, you have to die and start again later (or if lucky, exit game to menu). of course considering its not 30 mins arcade but 100 hrs rpg.
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Last edited by qmish on Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:38 am 


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qmish wrote:
dunno about cave novice modes, but CCWI's novice is still feeling harder than most mainstream games, especially starting from stage 4 :lol:

also, are you against for new players to have those "easier" modes as they first 1ccs?

Personally I find CCWI novice very easy (mostly due to how many more extends it gives than the arcade difficulty) but still enjoyable, because the core mechanics and scoring are still satisfying.

I don't think playing an easy game for the purposes of a "first 1CC" is all that worthwhile because you're just brushing the "challenge" aspect of the genre under the rug. What's important is providing an approachable learning curve so that anyone, no matter their current skill level, can find a next step to get better and have fun along the way (so that they actually want to improve). This usually means hitting a sweet spot between "too easy" and "too hard" for the player, but even a game that's very very difficult, far above the player's skill level for a 1CC or a high score, can be approachable in this way.

lol this thread has had nothing to do with Aka & Blue for most of its existence
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:13 am 


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This thread is dead for the OT it would be nice to split it indeed.

It's funny to see like about a decade ago communities certainly had a number of irrational anti-emulation, anti-ports, anti-doujin prejudiced dumbasses who had no idea what they were talking about and taking 'sides', forcefully splitting players in the hobby, and today we have the same kind of idiots but who joined later hating back at stuff for fucking nothing since most of those stupid ideas died with time anyway.

So instead from their increasingly isolated social media hivemind bubbles they make up an evil 'farmdad' identity, build nonsense ignorant laughabe arguments against arcades and people they don't fucking know, even against the point of hardware/low-res/crt, up to taking a refuge position in ditching even the point of caring about configuration and hardware, and pissing over people who don't take video games exclusively for an olympic hardcore gaming discipline or just don't anymore and commit the sin of just leisurely enjoying stuff they've always liked and rejoice that some of it that was gone is attempting a return that won't do the slightest harm and quite the opposite could do good to the genre.

But no. They won't have that, "rich harware elitist collector dads hate doujin and are irrelevant lazy players hanging to obsolete things and have no culture", no other version of reality and the state of things is acceptable. History isn't relevant as well, experience of it and what people coming from it tell is nothing, business economics and risk-taking don't make sense even coming from pros, it's only a conspiracy to take away the genre from the poor and young.

I there anything remaining in this world that hasn't been infected by imbecile toxic bigotery? after irl politics and ideology invading practically every video games or every hobby for that matters and splitting, ruining the mood, it's the very core, the very reason of exitence of the hobby and what has gathered people from every horizons and age for a very long time, that's subject to the same treatment.
'Fucking hate this shit era.
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:59 pm 


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Shepardus wrote:
I think we should charge for every run done on a console port because not having the nerves from possibly wasting real money on a botched run is also cheating. Or maybe we should just not derive value from preventing other people from playing games the way they want to, and focus on playing them ourselves the way we want to.


You could keep going into a rich vs poor thing like a rich person in an arcade couldn't care less how much he spends and a poor person can afford 1 game a week but if they are really trying to beat a STG in 1 credit then that's that. You're making a half a point not really worth talking about and it sounds like you brainstormed to try and come up with a counterpoint to my post. Anyway in my experience the only games that are ruined by removing the quarter is games that you play on timers like Gauntlet.

No, I do not derive value from preventing other people from doing things. People who are deep into STG games tend to be obsessed with game rules and for me that includes "one perfectly even playing field for all players".


qmish wrote:
also, are you against for new players to have those "easier" modes as they first 1ccs?

p.s.
that talk about pause abusing is same as unlimited credits. its up to what you do - playing seriously or having silly fun/practicing.


I'm not saying pausing shouldn't be included in, for example, a practice mode. I'm saying it shouldn't be available in the main mode that would produce high scores to compare against arcade runs where there was no pause button. It's just an even playing field thing.

No I'm not against easier modes being in ports at all, I just think they waste people's time when they use them for practice in order to be able to play normal modes and they should know that.


Xyga wrote:
This thread is dead for the OT it would be nice to split it indeed.



It should have been split a long time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:01 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
'Fucking hate this shit era.

then leave lol

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:
One of the reasons arcade is more immediately interesting to some people is because it almost guarantees a lot of rules in game design that don't have to be in console/PC that shooting game fans like, such as the assumed difficulty level. And a lot of people *do not want* things like pause buttons in a game because it's an invitation to cheating six ways from Sunday like taking a breather to let your nerves cool (cheating!) or pausing with a bunch of stuff on screen and sitting there thinking about what to do when you unpause. That's absolutely cheating.

sorry I'll now piss on the carpet like a true arcade samurai instead of pausing the game and going to the toilet


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:05 pm 


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Nah you leave, it's you who shit all over this place. leave lol. leave.
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:46 pm 


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Can we try to get back on topic on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:12 am 


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:lol: you are a bit of a weirdo xyga.do others opinions really upset you that much that you want them to leave a forum because they don't agree with you?? can you not worry about something important instead. i don't want anyone to leave the forum because they can afford this game and have known people like superpang since 2003 on forums.he was one of the first people apart from myself that i ever knew online who really loved cave games and i have no hatred towards him. you are the one who always seems to have nazi style hatred towards people
its quite funny that the people who want the game to get to the most forum users are being told they are shitting on the forum :lol: cave allready went the way of the dodo once,do you want it to happen again.. it will be the arcade operators who end up pirating this system not forum members :idea:
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:19 am 


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and i guess sprok wants all clover tacs scores removed because he credit feeds till the end while practising :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:25 am 


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charlie chong wrote:
and i guess sprok wants all clover tacs scores removed because he credit feeds till the end while practising :lol:


Twisting my words is a pretty dickheaded thing to do and surprising coming from someone who cried in the previous post about can't we all just get along. I said a pause button was cheating (if using it during a run you count your high score or clear on), not credit feeding while practicing. They are 2 completely different things.

Can the thread be split now that Banana played the piss card and charlie chong has taken a trolling dump?


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:39 am 


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Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:
charlie chong wrote:
I said a pause button was cheating


Jesus Christ.

Look, if you`re in a public arcade, where the purpose of the machine is to generate revenue, you can`t go for a toilet break because A - You`re interrupting revenue and B Someone else can just step in and take your credit.

Outside of that environment such as the home, a pause function, like you find on media players, DVD players, and well, any other home use consumer media product is just fine.
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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:49 am 


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It's never going away, I know how the world works. It breaks the even playing field and that's what irks me, that's all I was wanting wanting to say.

People threw a shit fit when 1 person got 1 board of 1 game (DOJ) that skipped to the end for practice but I'm crazy because the play field is uneven in every port of every game. But OK, I'm done with my points other than the one about the thread needing to be split.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:36 am 


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Get the port.
The playing field is now even.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka & Blue Type-R (Exa Arcade 2018)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:04 am 


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Pause discussion not worthy - same self-control as (unlimited) continues
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