Shmups: PCB vs PC port vs Emulation?

[waiwainl]

Kudos to zak!


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[T4N3]

I am patiently waiting for the G.rev announcments.
Knowing that whetever they're coming with will be out of reach for me will probably be heartbreaking...

[Shepardus]

The only way I can see this being a benefit to shmup players in that regard (more games, easier access to those games, and more people playing them) is if the games make enough money in the arcade that developers can afford to make more games and make them more widely available, and are feeling generous enough to do that rather than keep going for the arcade-exclusivity that got them there in the first place.

Glad to see you're starting to realize my point.

To be perfectly clear, I don't see this actually happening. Even on the off-chance that these arcade titles are successful, that provides no incentive for developers to make their games available outside of arcades - quite the opposite, in fact, when it was the exclusivity that brought them success in the first place. And even if arcades wildly take off in the coming years and become more than a curiosity in the western hemisphere, it's still not going to be as convenient to players as other platforms, especially for anyone not living in an urban area.

Yes, arcades and shmups had a synergistic relationship back in the day. However, that depended on a whole lot more factors than exclusivity, and many of those factors can't be feasibly reproduced today - no amount of exclusivity contracts will undo the societal and technological changes that have taken place. It's telling that there has to be an agreement to keep the games platform-exclusive when that was more a natural consequence of the technology back in the heyday of arcades (not that that stopped developers from trying to make console ports). Even though shmups haven't changed much (relatively speaking), the roles they play in players' lives and the way people see them have. So please excuse me for doubting that this attempt to save arcades and reproduce past conditions will also stimulate the shmup scene the way arcades used to, and for doubting that this is even the best way to do so given current state of affairs and what's available nowadays.

I am patiently waiting for the G.rev announcments.
Knowing that whetever they're coming with will be out of reach for me will probably be heartbreaking...

There's been a new version of Strania announced: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61881

[Ako]

hehe

[Shou]

Yes, arcades and shmups had a synergistic relationship back in the day. However, that depended on a whole lot more factors than exclusivity, and many of those factors can't be feasibly reproduced today - no amount of exclusivity contracts will undo the societal and technological changes that have taken place. It's telling that there has to be an agreement to keep the games platform-exclusive when that was more a natural consequence of the technology back in the heyday of arcades (not that that stopped developers from trying to make console ports). Even though shmups haven't changed much (relatively speaking), the roles they play in players' lives and the way people see them have. So please excuse me for doubting that this attempt to save arcades and reproduce past conditions will also stimulate the shmup scene the way arcades used to, and for doubting that this is even the best way to do so given current state of affairs and what's available nowadays.

There is a misunderstanding here. Games are not exclusive, certain content is. In some cases, we will be supporting the developers with console and PC ports.

[Xyga]

To be perfectly clear, I don't see this actually happening.

@S: I've expressed the same concerns in regards to actual arcades locations/availability, but no way the synergy is not happening.
Might be tough, might take a long time but at least some people are trying to bring more, not to lock development and business into a unique net-centered model and culture. This creates more opportunities, not less. I want to believe in Shou's experience and plans.
The criticisms of some about arcade fetishism and elitism are just empty, just nothing.

[brentsg]

This isn't hard to understand. The genre will benefit from greater exposure in the arcades, even if in the worst case scenario, not all of the titles make their way from arcade to home in some form.

Arcade ops need income for this to be viable, and as such they need a platform that isn't cracked, and games that are at least in some form exclusive. Whether that exclusivity is time dependent or absolute is important, and it looks in this case like it's absolute.

Exciting times.. and DM sent.

[Udderdude]

Well, the Switch version might be different from the arcade, maybe even substantially, but I'm still going to buy it, if it's any good.

[OmegaFlareX]

For those in the US, Round 1 plans to have 200 locations there. D&B is opening 1 new location a month and currently has 110 locations. Other states like Texas have an increasing amount of arcades.

Haha, you can't be serious. Arcades in the US are a joke, filled to the brim with steaming hot garbage that no one here cares about. You will not find any shmups at any of those locations except the obligatory Ms. Pacman/Galaga combo with broken controls stuffed in a dusty corner.

To play these games as your business vision dictates, we simply have to travel to Japan.

[Eaglet]

Sorry, but do you have a hard time reading?
This platform covers multiple types of games and would be of interest to any arcade owner. Regardless of style.
If STG's can get a free ride one that train it's only a positive for the community.

[gumOreo]

I do have a D&B near where I live. From the few times I’ve been there, from what I’ve seen it’s honestly not that bad, nothing from my D&B I wouldn’t really say is “steaming hot garbage”.

Oh and it also doesn’t have the Mrs. Pacman/Galaga combo machine, although it did have a “Pacman’s Arcade Party” machine for some charity event I think. It had about 12 games on it and it was really cool.

[GSK]

If peoples' biggest aspirations are to recapture the "glory days" of 2010 then there's no hope.

[dan76]

If there any curious Londoners who want to try the Exa, I am more than happy to have you come over and play on it when the system is set up at home.

FYI, I'm not a rich arse hole elitist, just passionate about shmups and happy to share what I have.

Count me in(and a couple of others probably)! It would be like a mini shmup meet, just like the old days.

I'm interested in this new arcade system to see where it goes. Could be great in theory, and I hope it does well. However, the lack of actual arcades that exist especially in this part of the world is a bit of a problem.

If you're going to get fighting games, why not try for SFV. Capcom doesn't seem too interested in arcades anymore.


......Half serious......

[pestro87]

Shou mentioned before that the system would be around (or less than) $2,000 but just wondering - do we have a ballpark yet for the cost of each game? Thanks

EDIT: Also wondering if there will be a non-collectors version of Exa and the games available for private use? ie. no art, boxes etc. just the system and the games...

[Xyga]

When I was young a lot of cafes and pubs had a cab or two if not more, including malls, cinemas etc. Those were the most numerous, closest places in any neighborhood where anyone could play arcade games, not dedicated arcades businesses.
The main purpose was to keep children busy + get some revenue, win-win.
Shit was murdered at some point because of a new heavy tax, it was later reduced back to almost nothing, but too late as consoles had completely taken over the market, almost every owner had resold and dumped cabs and pcbs in the meantime.
This tax story is specific to my country though, I know things can be very different elsewhere.
But at $2000 and with games that might cost something like $500 each (guesstimate) it's true that a lot of middle and little businesses could afford it.

EDIT: note though that of course practically nobody's got any cabs left to put their EXA in for public use, the only remaining resellers are either dealing in rinced japanese and euro crt cabs at horrendous prices (I don't even want to mention the prices of imported lcd cabs, they're just out of reach for most businesses today, or they are but no one would believe those a good investment)
And 'new' cabs are sold by shark stores that manufacture all-in-one ugly-ass lcd uprights and bartops full of cool themed stickers, all with shitty non-tate-able lcd and some fashion of illegal emulation suite included, and nobody gives any fucks because most buyers don't know shit about games and arcades anyway, they just want a cool thing that's retro~ish plug-and-play and are fine with laying 3,000€ if not more for it.
Yeah it sucks, while the EXA itself might be attractive, there's not even the shadow of an affordable decent modern universal lcd cab available on the market.

[emphatic]

bananamatic has a right to voice his opinion . a modern shooter doesn't last him very long compared to other players .eventually he is going to have no games to play

If he wants them too last longer, he can just stop using save state practice and only do full runs. That should keep him busy.

[Bananamatic]

bananamatic has a right to voice his opinion . a modern shooter doesn't last him very long compared to other players .eventually he is going to have no games to play

If he wants them too last longer, he can just stop using save state practice and only do full runs. That should keep him busy.

I have 3+ years worth of shmup backlog so I'm doing just fine, 200+ hours per game with more coming out
worst case scenario I'll play daioujou or whatever else there is left from cave worth playing

do you remember that "big name devs" related to shmups are still nearly same 2-10 people in team, not very far away from doujin, lol
and how 90% non-shmuppers never heard about them (or, they could heard about doujins much more than about "arcade/console shmup devs" due to viral communities like Touhou or Undertale)

doujin=crowdfunding not allowed, not commercial, sometimes(mostly?) done for the sake of creating stuff, not the profit (not sure here but if you're expecting any kind of profit from a shmup you're delusional)
sometimes even freeware like BWR or chorensha, pawarumi for example isn't doujin by definition due to being crowdfunded even if it was made by a couple of dudes

If peoples' biggest aspirations are to recapture the "glory days" of 2010 then there's no hope.

here's a fun rundown of semi-recent shmup releases with pc numbers, assuming steamspy is correct:
sdoj - failed in arcades, cave dies
cave steam ports - 20k to 40k, seems like no more since it's far from high sales
aka to blue - not successful at all apparently
crimzon clover WI - 130k owners, game was often for $2 or less
strania - 2.4k owners, absolute failure
senko no ronde 2 - I feel bad even including this one in the list
raiden V - 2.1k owners, absolute failure
danmaku unlimited 3 - 3.6k sales, maybe worth it since one man team
pawarumi - sub 1k owners, game doesn't look bad but absolutely no one cares
blue revolver - good game, 100% steam rating, still only 10k sales, no more shmups in the setting due to bad sales
nex machina - 194k owners just on steam, housemarque quits development because it was a failure despite those numbers
astebreed - 120k owners just on steam, hard to tell if it was worth it if the previous one was a failure plus it looks far from low budget?
psyvariar reassemble - absolute failure, shut down after several months, can't even play anymore
loli anime mobage with gacha mechanics by cave featuring anime crossovers - success

pretty much all of the ones with 40k+ sales (raiden IV, ccwi) were due to 80%+ discounts, being horribly underpriced or being included in bundles
if you think that putting the same shit on a different screen while cutting availability by 99.999% will somehow cause the genre to make a 180, you're delusional
the future of shmups being people willing to develop them at no profit (so pretty much doujin) is a simple logical conclusion

Haha, you can't be serious. Arcades in the US are a joke, filled to the brim with steaming hot garbage that no one here cares about. You will not find any shmups at any of those locations except the obligatory Ms. Pacman/Galaga combo with broken controls stuffed in a dusty corner.

To play these games as your business vision dictates, we simply have to travel to Japan.

remember that even those living in japan have to be fortunate enough to live within distance of an arcade and then you have to justify the time to go there, back and possibly wait in lines for your credit
why would you do that instead of playing games that are just as good in your own home and save hours of time?

[qmish]

Though in your list some games are just recently released and some were for 3-5 years already

But still, .

remember that even those living in japan have to be fortunate enough to live within distance of an arcade and then you have to justify the time to go there, back and possibly wait in lines for your credit
why would you do that instead of playing games that are just as good in your own home and save hours of time?

I guess most % of japanese arcades frequent visitors ARE those rare people who have arcades in a way from work to home and they have a habit to spend some time there, and not ones who specially travels through the whole city to get there? Now how many of them play shmups and not pachinko - different question.

[Bananamatic]

rolling gunner has been in development since 2015 or something, had an interview in famitsu, prerelease at comiket, another recent demo at tokaigi 2018 with a nicovideo livestream yet almost no one seems to care with only 61 followers on twitter and barely several hundred views over 3 years on the previews

you have to be either insane or REALLY love shmups to go all the way
which is probably why the devs are often also good players (which results in the games being well made)

[jimmerd]

Shou mentioned before that the system would be around (or less than) $2,000 but just wondering - do we have a ballpark yet for the cost of each game? Thanks

EDIT: Also wondering if there will be a non-collectors version of Exa and the games available for private use? ie. no art, boxes etc. just the system and the games...

I also hope there is a minimal system package alongside the collector editions

[Shepardus]

Jamestown somehow has around 600k sales not counting PS4, though I bet it's been in at least one bundle. Ikaruga has about 120k sales but that's because it's Ikaruga.

I've seen stats saying that the average new game on Steam (after the introduction of Steam Direct, filtering out some things like garbage asset flips) sells about a thousand copies in its first month, so 10k doesn't seem all that bad to me as long as you set your expectations and budget accordingly (in other words, not putting yourself in Housemarque's situation with Nex Machina). I think that goes for any game that isn't backed by a major studio, not just shmups, and I don't think adding an arcade release changes that.

[pixelcorps]

here's a fun rundown of semi-recent shmup releases with pc numbers, assuming steamspy is correct:
sdoj - failed in arcades, cave dies
cave steam ports - 20k to 40k, seems like no more since it's far from high sales
aka to blue - not successful at all apparently
crimzon clover WI - 130k owners, game was often for $2 or less
strania - 2.4k owners, absolute failure
senko no ronde 2 - I feel bad even including this one in the list
raiden V - 2.1k owners, absolute failure
danmaku unlimited 3 - 3.6k sales, maybe worth it since one man team
pawarumi - sub 1k owners, game doesn't look bad but absolutely no one cares
blue revolver - good game, 100% steam rating, still only 10k sales, no more shmups in the setting due to bad sales
nex machina - 194k owners just on steam, housemarque quits development because it was a failure despite those numbers
astebreed - 120k owners just on steam, hard to tell if it was worth it if the previous one was a failure plus it looks far from low budget?

I`d say the sales are actually WAY worse. Some of those could actually be 50% less

Steam spy is wildly inaccurate, citing owners often in excess of 10,000 over the real figure - Source : comparing my own Steam sales to Steam spy (overestimated by around 45%, that`s 10,000 users) , Indie dev friends reporting same thing..

It`s all a bit depressing really, If you have a team and office rent to pay it`s almost not worth it - A few STG companies actually share one office space with other companies, and Tanoshimas`s office are way out in the sticks (and their salaries are laughable) , even still it must suck money away, But I think we can blame Japan`s inflexible approach to work environments (Telecommuting?? Whassat?) for that.

I have no idea about arcade revenue so I can`t comment on wether its better for a serious STG to go straight to online sales or something Like EXA.. I guess as far as Japan sales it raises the profile.. I just don`t know any figures..

[Shou]

here's a fun rundown of semi-recent shmup releases with pc numbers, assuming steamspy is correct:
sdoj - failed in arcades, cave dies
cave steam ports - 20k to 40k, seems like no more since it's far from high sales
aka to blue - not successful at all apparently
crimzon clover WI - 130k owners, game was often for $2 or less
strania - 2.4k owners, absolute failure
senko no ronde 2 - I feel bad even including this one in the list
raiden V - 2.1k owners, absolute failure
danmaku unlimited 3 - 3.6k sales, maybe worth it since one man team
pawarumi - sub 1k owners, game doesn't look bad but absolutely no one cares
blue revolver - good game, 100% steam rating, still only 10k sales, no more shmups in the setting due to bad sales
nex machina - 194k owners just on steam, housemarque quits development because it was a failure despite those numbers
astebreed - 120k owners just on steam, hard to tell if it was worth it if the previous one was a failure plus it looks far from low budget?

I`d say the sales are actually WAY worse. Some of those could actually be 50% less

Steam spy is wildly inaccurate, citing owners often in excess of 10,000 over the real figure - Source : comparing my own Steam sales to Steam spy (overestimated by around 45%, that`s 10,000 users) , Indie dev friends reporting same thing..

It`s all a bit depressing really, If you have a team and office rent to pay it`s almost not worth it - A few STG companies actually share one office space with other companies, and Tanoshimas`s office are way out in the sticks (and their salaries are laughable) , even still it must suck money away, But I think we can blame Japan`s inflexible approach to work environments (Telecommuting?? Whassat?) for that.

I have no idea about arcade revenue so I can`t comment on wether its better for a serious STG to go straight to online sales or something Like EXA.. I guess as far as Japan sales it raises the profile.. I just don`t know any figures..

You've articulated many of the problems here. For smaller to medium size devs, EXA presents a great opportunity for revenue that they couldn't easily achieve on Steam or any console digital store.

Let's look at that:
$20 retail
-30% Steam/PSN/XBLA tax
$14 net * 1000 units sold =$14,000

Then imagine all of your thrifty gamers who only buy at 50% off or more.

$7000 net in that case.

Maybe, it's a breakout title and does 10,000 units sold = $140,000. Still not paying for even a small team there and you haven't even paid for marketing yet.

The finances don't work for PC and console only, which is why they cannot fund a shooter by any of the known companies in the field.

[Xyga]

@pixel: Imagine from the release start with;

- selling 1000 games $20
VS.
- selling 1000 games $500 (I don't know how much an EXA game will cost but arcade kits sell for much more than home merchandise for good reason)

Considering how quickly after release the games sold on the net platforms come to be on discount, down to miserable prices anyone would make more money selling hot-dogs on the street, it's not too hard which model is the more reassuring financialy speaking for a launch.
Too much depends on popularity and value perception on Steam etc, in the end it's really big volume sales or fuck off, even popular titles become cheap stuff even overshadowing more original and genuinely indeendent production.

Free games and self or crowdfunded games sold in online dollar stores a la Steam and Gog are cool and all, socialism and Uberization banzai! but that system only goes so far in output and level as what we've seen these past years, those who are satisfied with only that are either blind or braindead, reviving a more capitalist circuit in parallel won't hurt in the least it will on the contrary bring fresh means for devs that were in a slumber if not dead and we'll get new games from them not just in the arcades. Both models can be complementary, bringing more knowledge, people, means, project and revenue opportunities etc there will be some transfer, unless some absolutely refuse it of course.

Yeah some have just no trust or no idea how classic business work, are prejudiced against people who do things that involve more money than they can deal with some even seeing a silly bourgeois collector's fantasy (capitalism = always motivated by evil), and they make a much bigger deal of maybe not being able to play a handful of shmups in the future (proably just game modes actually) than they probably really do care about seeing the disdain for the already announced titles.

Of course the success of it all depends heavily on EXA's/Shou's work and people's cooperation, good luck to them and don't listen to the naysayers.

EDIT: oops Shou posted before I did, still posting it.

[qmish]

Can you provide example (based on real numbers and including all stuff to keep in mind like revenue or what not) of how arcade title sells, too, like you did with steam/whatever sale?

As for "pc/console publishers don't even try" - was that a real when Yoko Taro said he wanted to make a shmup but publishers said nope so he implemented bullets into nier automata boss fights?

- selling 1000 games $20
VS.
- selling 1000 games $500

The thing is, out of those 1000 who buy shmup for $20 or $60, around 50 people would buy it for $500 (be it collectors, older fans, rich hipsters or else)

[Xyga]

The thing is, out of those 1000 who buy shmup for $20 or $60, around 50 people would buy it for $500 (be it collectors, older fans, rich hipsters or else)

You all seem to forget EXA's targeting businesses first...

[qmish]

Arcade operators? Ok

[Xyga]

Arcades operators aren't the only ones who can exploit machines, so several kinds of businesses + individual customers.

[qmish]

Xyga, when you were talking about arcades disappearing from malls etc.

How to influence all those "business" that having arcade cab is cool and worth it (btw the horrifying price of transporting those weighty things)? As currently the most you can see is coffe/sweets machine...
The dilemma of propaganda that is needed to make arcades spreading more, and not just in "kid zones"...

[Xyga]

@qmish: I have expressed in details similar concerns, never said anything like EXA's guaranteed to be a success either. But we're not in Shou's shoes (!), there's only so much we can speculate about.
Just saying the model seems valid while being well-aware it's not the 20th century anymore, and that I haven't seen the doujin-indie-pc ecosystem alone being that successful at all by itsel, in fact it seemed even stronger in the past for shmups, same on the console side.