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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:35 pm 


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TransatlanticFoe wrote:
dan76 wrote:
Poe - what was that all about? A massive part of the film could've been avoided if Dern had just told him what was going on. This was like an episode of The Walking Dead. What's the lesson learned? Follow orders mindlessly.


They guy defied orders at the beginning, got the entire bomber squadron wiped out along with a sizeable amount of fighter cover. Of course you're not going to pander to the tantrums of a recently demoted arrogant officer who lost you resources you could really do with right now.

Yeah the lesson is respect the chain of command because your cocky arse gets people pointlessly killed.


But it's Star Wars! It's not supposed to be serious and po faced. That whole bit with Poe getting demoted was sloppy writing to get around the delay of information. Really weak.

Plus, Derns plan didn't work and got even more people killed, including Ackbar offscreen. Another reason this film sucks!

Edit: there no point arguing about this stuff. I just thought it was shit. I don't want life lessons from these films. Be kind to animals - I already know. Obey your orders - I already know, but fuck that.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:11 pm 


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dan76 wrote:
I just thought it was shit.


Eh, weird.

I wasn't settled in the first half. I mean, I've explained it all already, but the breakdown would be:

Spoiler: show
- Opening scene: great
- Luke & Rey part 1: disjointed, slow
- Rey & Kylo force skyping: interesting, intrigue building
- Finn & Rose on a mission: momentum building
- Luke & Rey part 2: still oddly paced, but better.
- Kylo genesis flashbacks: intriguing, interesting.
- Rey & Kylo vs Snoke: The beginning of the movie turning the heat up
- Finn & Rose on Canto Bight: Throwaway, slightly disappointing
- Everything thereafter: Full on, highly entertaining popcorn SW stuff, with some of the best SW stuff since 83.


Now I know there's some duff writing in there, duff characters and moments: Leia Poppins, Laura Dern and let's-just-wait-six-hours-and-take-fire-before-deploying-the-transports all fit those grooves.

But shit, it was still fairly entertaining. I'm a huge OT fan and I didn't feel that offended by Luke when I was watching it, perhaps because Hamill did so well in the role, perhaps because Han was so egregiously wasted in TFA - not sure. But I wasn't sitting there rolling my eyes.

Can we at least agree that it's obviously better than TFA and Rogue One? Rogue One really nearly put me to sleep, and I've never ever caught Zs in a theater. It had zero drama, awful casting, horribly unlikeable leads, terrible comic relief, didn't feel anything like a SW movie, and was full of non-characters with no personalities who were all engaged in a battle with no obvious motivation whatsoever. It was dire.

For all its faults, this one at least ticked some important boxes: relatable characters with some semblance of personality, drama, intrigue, really strong action sequences, awesome music scoring, more sensitive callbacks to the OT than anything in TFA, and a general sense of entertainment.

For me it was the best since Jedi, I really can't accept that anything in-between eked it out.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:25 pm 


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Hamill was superb throughout, I think that much is inarguable.

IIRC (big "if"), wasn't the motivation for the bombing raid that the Dreadnought would supposedly kill them all anyway, if it wasn't taken down at any cost?

Maybe Poe was just being a smarmy glory-seeker (or maybe he was just mistaken) with his "fleet killer" sell. Either way, I liked that the horrendous cost of destroying the thing was recognised as such in-film, however briefly. I dislike it when even popcorn movies expect the audience to obliviously munch their way through scenes of unbridled slaughter while fretting over their waifus. #zakoarepeopletoo

Admiral Dangerhair's options appeared to be 1] have Poe summarily executed, 2] relent and provide her subordinate some assurance she wasn't piling everyone into a deathtrap, or 3] send him to his room to sulk. 1 would lose a valued soldier and might've sparked a wider-scale mutiny. 3 led to a hilarious misunderstanding that got everyone killed.

2 seems the most reasonable, and I wanted to dunk all over her annoying face for not seeing that, but I thought the movie did a decent job of suggesting neither of these two would trust each other.

Granted, that was mostly because they squabbled like a pair of divas who couldn't be trusted with a hotdog stand, let alone a war effort, but there was at least the kernel of tragedy here.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:03 pm 


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Skykid wrote:

Can we at least agree that it's obviously better than TFA and Rogue One? Rogue One really nearly put me to sleep, and I've never ever caught Zs in a theater. It had zero drama, awful casting, horribly unlikeable leads, terrible comic relief, didn't feel anything like a SW movie, and was full of non-characters with no personalities who were all engaged in a battle with no obvious motivation whatsoever. It was dire.


... I don't know. I think the TFA is fine until Han turns up. Goes to shit after that but we get some Chewey action. Rogue One I don't hate as much as you, I can kind of watch it as a diversion. I didn't really want to care about any of the characters, but still, it's a messy film. At least it has Tie Bombers in it for a second. TLJ was supposed to get things going and build upon TFA but it didn't. It just kind of threw it all out.

I respect it more than TFA because at least it's doing it's own thing, but saying it's the best since Jedi isn't really saying much is it. As much as I can't stand the prequels these films aren't much better script wise. They're just better directed.

Also, it seems like Disney is giving these guys quite a lot of freedom in what they want to make. I think most of us would come up with a better story for a Star Wars film than TLJ.

Btw, the Red Letter Media awful Solo movie ideas video is brilliant.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:19 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
Rogue One really nearly put me to sleep, and I've never ever caught Zs in a theater. It had zero drama, awful casting, horribly unlikeable leads, terrible comic relief, didn't feel anything like a SW movie, and was full of non-characters with no personalities who were all engaged in a battle with no obvious motivation whatsoever. It was dire.


This. R1 was so boring I've fallen asleep 3 times attempting to watch it on Netflix at home. A dour, lifeless war movie which wouldn't be THAT bad if the characters were worth caring about. I found none of them to be engaging or interesting. Fully armored Stormtroopers being whacked with a stick because China was a real facepalm moment too. On my third and final attempt I woke up right before the Vader tantrum, sat through it and just gave up. It's not that it isn't Star Wars.. so much as it's just flat, dour, and lifeless. A good war movie makes you care. This one just failed at that entirely for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:29 pm 


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dan76 wrote:
Skykid wrote:

Can we at least agree that it's obviously better than TFA and Rogue One? Rogue One really nearly put me to sleep, and I've never ever caught Zs in a theater. It had zero drama, awful casting, horribly unlikeable leads, terrible comic relief, didn't feel anything like a SW movie, and was full of non-characters with no personalities who were all engaged in a battle with no obvious motivation whatsoever. It was dire.


... I don't know. I think the TFA is fine until Han turns up. Goes to shit after that but we get some Chewey action. Rogue One I don't hate as much as you, I can kind of watch it as a diversion. I didn't really want to care about any of the characters, but still, it's a messy film. At least it has Tie Bombers in it for a second. TLJ was supposed to get things going and build upon TFA but it didn't. It just kind of threw it all out.

I respect it more than TFA because at least it's doing it's own thing, but saying it's the best since Jedi isn't really saying much is it. As much as I can't stand the prequels these films aren't much better script wise. They're just better directed.

Also, it seems like Disney is giving these guys quite a lot of freedom in what they want to make. I think most of us would come up with a better story for a Star Wars film than TLJ.

Btw, the Red Letter Media awful Solo movie ideas video is brilliant.


Yeah I saw it ages ago.


SPOILERS AHEAD

Again, for me it's like this. TFA is lacklustre. It's got nothing in it; it's almost a carbon remake of IV. It ends on a literal cliffhanger which has already been established as never actually having any forward plot. And then you give all that shit to Rian Johnson, and he then tries to do his best to undo all of it.

You want to fuck around with revealing your bad guy so early? Let's just smash the mask. Rey is who again? She's nobody (and that's perfect, she should be nobody because that brings the idea that the force can be tapped by anyone back into the frame) so let's have Snoke right at the beginning of the movie belittle Ren by saying "you lost to a girl who had never even picked up a lightsaber". You left me with Luke on tiny island in the middle of nowhere? Fuck you then, let's just chuck this lightsaber into the ocean and redefine expectations of the character. Supreme Leader Golem? Oh let's just get this one out the way and pave the way for something better.

We could have done without the humour; it wasn't tonally correct and jarred once too often - but it was still better than being humourless, like the prequels. We could have also done without Rose and Laura Dern (definitely Laura Dern) and it's a shame that they weren't axed from the script (I think Finn going it alone to Canto Bight would have been a lot more interesting, and the entire romantic interest thing was useless)... but none of it is what I would call badly handled. It's a fair handling of an occasionally suspect script. It's not perfect by any stretch - considering his obviously superior use of the camera he still managed a Leia Poppins shot that was bafflinglingly bad, as was some of the Ireland island stuff - and we all know we could have done some things better if we did it ourselves. But shit, I say that about almost every movie I see.

But what about the good stuff? There are good lines in the movie too. I liked it when Ren says to Rey, "You're nobody... but not to me." Some of the dialogue was credible and nicely formed. You may not have liked Luke's character, but his dialogue wasn't bad; and Snoke was partially saved at the last moment by a good performance and decent lines.

The action was superior. It wasn't shred cut and it was edited really well. I'd go as far as to say it's some of the best space battling since Jedi and far superior to TFA.

And the music, finally. One wondered why the fuck with the property rights you can't actually use the proper themes in the TFA, but Johnson was right in on that. He used some of the greatest cuts to make the scenes pop - and they did.

Rey never flew the Falcon again (because doing so in TFA was retarded) and that was left to Chewie only, as it should have been.

Generally speaking, it just wasn't the 'abomination', stain against the series, should-be-axed-from-canon-error that people seem to be citing.

It was ok. It's 2018 and fucking Disney. You get what you get. At least it wasn't Gareth Edwards and Rogue One. That guy should go back to finger painting.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:16 pm 


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Ok I'm just going to leave this here because absolutely necessary viewing for anyone that's seen and either liked or didn't like TLJ (probably even more important to the latter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbHUJEH-ERI

Watch it through, it's only 20 minutes. It's an extremely good essay on why TLJ is what it is and why the fans misunderstood it so seriously. I agree with most of the points raised here and that Johnson's intentions were noble.

I also agree that in years to come this movie will be looked back on as one of the better efforts, just like Empire was first maligned in its heyday and then heralded as one of the best by the passage of time and retrospect.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:30 pm 


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Feels like the guy who wrote a 100 page PDF rebutting Mike's sarcastic commentary on the prequels. Recommend watching Zygote instead. It has wicked office ceiling tiles. Invokes some nasty PTSD of my Office Space days.

Star Wars has scarce relevancy to today. The Last Jedi is a product that exists to have a product, it can't say anything at all. Spaceballs had something to say. Spaceballs is art. Starwars is produce.

Every summer blockbuster turned into Starwars with a reskin. TLJ says to leave Star Wars in the past, where it belongs? I agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:37 pm 


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Yoo, that Mister Ed delivery, that rhetorically persuasive BGM. Image

*please read the below at .75% mental speed, with this track playing throughout - thanks, the author*

I'm honoured people are recognising unbridled NEETdom as a valuable, character-building activity! But I'm not convinced. Nobody likes a NEET irl. I can't help feeling they're just clutching at straws to rationalise one of the more glaring issues in their new favourite silly movie.

"Heroes need to fail."

Luke did fail. That's not the issue. The issue is retreating into self-indulgent obscurity as precisely the fear that motivated that failure came to pass. Either Luke's been a Secret Asshole™ all these years, or someone really wanted Dagobah Training Sequence mkII.

"...to evolve and ascend to new heights!"

What new heights? Self-sacrifice? That was arguably his defining trait in the OT. TLJ didn't "reach" anything - it rewound, in the same spirit of convenience that gave us NEET Luke to begin with.

"Yoda and Obi-Wan gave up too!"

Luke wasn't one man against an entrenched galactic empire. He took responsibility for a dangerous individual. He failed utterly, leaving a madman on the loose and likelier than ever to become the thing Luke feared most. And then Luke ran away, because his feelings were very hurt by it all, and wah wah wah.

"He gets the most heroic moment of the film to himself!"

No, he didn't. The movie opens with an entire bomber squadron sacrificing themselves to hold back the First Order. Immediately after, Kylo Ren butchers an X-Wing squadron before the poor bastards can even leave the hangar. Are we supposed to believe Luke's vanishing act did nothing to help bring this situation about? Strip away the fanservice and what TLJ depicted was a remorseful coward getting a taste of the reality he'd previously washed his hands of.

This isn't character development, it's character disfigurement. There is something of value here however: when you set fire to the stove, don't fuck off to your bedroom!

"Rian Johnson doesn't CARE what the audience thinks about Star Wars!"

I suspect the feeling may be mutual. Image
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:01 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
Feels like the guy who wrote a 100 page PDF rebutting Mike's sarcastic commentary on the prequels.


No it doesn't, don't be stupid.

BIL wrote:
Disagreements


Strange. I'm starting to see how polarizing this movie is even if I don't understand why. The points you rebutted and the rebuttal reasons don't click with me at all. I suppose what each individual took from the movie will totally affect the way in which this analysis and interpretation comes across. I thought he raised a lot of valid notes here about Johnson's aims and intentions - and overall is a very good essay. But perhaps I feel that way because I already had a sense of those things before he addressed them.

Regardless it's a far cry from that badly written Plinkett rebuttal by a high school failure. Here at least the guy categorically states "I didn't think it was by any means a perfect movie and I would have changed a lot". But whatever, different opinions for very different reasons I guess.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:25 pm 


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They just went too far, imo.

Since my first viewing (I ended up watching it again, shortly after the brutal strong-arming that led to my initial, sleep-deprived encounter), I've thought Luke's downfall was superbly done. Some of the film's detractors say Luke was ruined there and then, but I thought it was perfectly humanising, and also put Kylo over well. How unnerving a presence must he be, to bring Luke that low? Critically, too, Luke got ahold of himself, if far too late.

I just don't buy the ensuing endless vacation. There's a constructive rationale, however evil, for murdering Kylo in his sleep. There's no such thing for running off and hiding. Had Luke been doing something with his time I'd be less contemptuous; as-is it's just one of those things I looked the other way on in the theatre.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:38 pm 


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To be fair to you I decided to elaborate:

BIL wrote:
"Heroes need to fail."

Luke did fail. That's not the issue. The issue is retreating into self-indulgent obscurity as precisely the fear that motivated that failure came to pass. Either Luke's been a Secret Asshole™ all these years, or someone really wanted Dagobah Training Sequence mkII.


But that's not really the point is it. As specified, it's not the literal failure of the character that's necessary, it's the fact that a hero had his time of heroism and has changed his beliefs over the course of 30 years, with Kylo Ren being the catalyst in it. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that because these old characters need to be removed, and this setup gave Luke a redemption that's in-character before disappearing from the spotlight forever.

Quote:
"...to evolve and ascend to new heights!"

What new heights? Self-sacrifice? That was arguably his defining trait in the OT. TLJ didn't "reach" anything - it rewound, in the same spirit of convenience that gave us NEET Luke to begin with.


I think the point is more that his understanding of the Force and the non-necessity of Jedi religions was part of the final spiritual hurdle - something for him to understand. A bit like a guy giving up on Christianity after being struck with misfortune, but later finding his way to a higher understanding. I think actual sacrifice can be considered a new height, the same way that it was for Obi-Wan.


Quote:
"Yoda and Obi-Wan gave up too!"

Luke wasn't one man against an entrenched galactic empire. He took responsibility for a dangerous individual. He failed utterly, leaving a madman on the loose and likelier than ever to become the thing Luke feared most. And then Luke ran away, because his feelings were very hurt by it all, and wah wah wah.


This is called a plot device. I don't consider it to be any more offensive than Luke having the hots for his sister, but then she turns out to be his sister.

Quote:
"He gets the most heroic moment of the film to himself!"

No, he didn't. The movie opens with an entire bomber squadron sacrificing themselves to hold back the First Order. Immediately after, Kylo Ren butchers an X-Wing squadron before the poor bastards can even leave the hangar. Are we supposed to believe Luke's vanishing act did nothing to help bring this situation about? Strip away the fanservice and what TLJ depicted was a remorseful coward getting a taste of the reality he'd previously washed his hands of.


It is certainly the most heroic moment. It's redemption, enlightenment and sacrifice all rolled into one. Porkins got sacrificed in IV valiantly trying to take out the Death Star, but we don't consider that to be the heroic highlight of the movie because he's not the central figure, in the same way Poe does some daredevil Dreadnaught hot-shotting and gets a bunch of folks killed and we take it in passing.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:06 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
But that's not really the point is it. As specified, it's not the literal failure of the character that's necessary, it's the fact that a hero had his time of heroism and has changed his beliefs over the course of 30 years, with Kylo Ren being the catalyst in it. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that because these old characters need to be removed, and this setup gave Luke a redemption that's in-character before disappearing from the spotlight forever...

(edit mine)

...This is called a plot device. I don't consider it to be any more offensive than Luke having the hots for his sister, but then she turns out to be his sister.


This is the crux of the matter. You're okay with a character who demonstrably had a strong, self-sacrificing sense of duty to his friends suddenly abandoning any and all trace of that, for the sake of unvarnished plot expediency. You euphemistically mention a "change of belief" - NEET Luke doesn't appear to believe in anything, other than self-indulgent oblivion. That is an incredible jump to make, and not everyone is buying it.

You ever set a place on fire with people inside, and walked away? I'm guessing not - neither have I. It's a dark place, and it's the territory TLJ plunges Luke into with an apparent glibness. To answer your ponderings above, on why the movie's getting such a polarised response RE the character: writing this flimsy is distracting to even casual viewers, and I can well imagine enraging to diehard geeks. If you're fine with it, fair enough I guess. IMO even popcorn needs consistency.

Quote:
It is certainly the most heroic moment. It's redemption, enlightenment and sacrifice all rolled into one. Porkins got sacrificed in IV valiantly trying to take out the Death Star, but we don't consider that to be the heroic highlight of the movie because he's not the central figure, in the same way Poe does some daredevil Dreadnaught hot-shotting and gets a bunch of folks killed and we take it in passing.


Much like TLJ's bomber squadron, Porkins actually comes off better than Luke when you put it that way. All died holding off imperial forces. One could've plausibly done a great deal to reduce or avert said imperials' rise to dominance, but he felt like moping in his room instead.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:12 pm 


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I think I'm ok with it. I'm not sure if that's because i consider it all fucked up anyway, by the prequels or the crappiness of TFA and Rogue One. I just don't care that much. I just like the way that TLJ rips everything up that has an opportunity to be recycled and forces the series into a new direction.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:16 pm 


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Same, it's just Luke where I've got to slam the brakes... I like these things a bit more organic. I'd have been fine if he completely fucked up, and even continued to fuck up on that island, but the total inertia kills it for me.

Like I said earlier, I loved Snoke's defenestration - play evil overlord games, win evil overlord downfall as the abused second-in-command shoves you off your pedestal! Not seeing the problem there. I only wish they'd not even cut to Rey's lightsaber, so his o(h sheeit I did not see that coming)-face was the audience's first confirmation something wasn't going to plan. Much the same with Rey's apparent lack of high blood - presumably Skywalkers and Kenobis were backwater nobodies at some point too...? Talent is a thing.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:21 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Same, it's just Luke where I've got to slam the brakes... I like these things a bit more organic. I'd have been fine if he completely fucked up, and even continued to fuck up on that island, but the total inertia kills it for me.

Like I said earlier, I loved Snoke's defenestration - play evil overlord games, win evil overlord downfall as the abused second-in-command shoves you off your pedestal! Not seeing the problem there. I only wish they'd not even cut to Rey's lightsaber, so his o(h sheeit I did not see that coming)-face was the audience's first confirmation something wasn't going to plan. Much the same with Rey's apparent lack of high blood - presumably Skywalkers and Kenobis were backwater nobodies at some point too...? Talent is a thing.


Yeah, it's arguably a little too early, but the saber swivel is meant to be your jump in point. When you know what's going to happen. I guess they couldn't think of a better insert shot to establish the saber actually being there.

EDIT: OH, and to address your single particular gripe about Luke's "ensuing endless vacation", which I get, we need to remember Johnson was handed that final scene of TFA by Abrams. He literally didn't have too many options to explain his reasoning as to why Luke was bearded and seemingly settled in the middle of nowhere. It was a Disney/Abrams lazy as fuck Final way to introduce Luke so he could be in 8. They could have put him anywhere: a passenger on a spacecraft, mulling over a beer in a seedy bar, selling tickets to a Bantha race - anything. Instead they put him on a teeny island in the middle of the Ocean and said "there you go". No wonder Johnson ruined TFA so hard.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:57 pm 


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I watched that video and he makes some valid points. I've no problem with Rey being a nobody, Snoke having no back story. That's a definite modern thing where viewers are obsessed with reasons. Fuck that. Luke going into hiding is good but it's handled badly. His motivation is bonkers.

Also, it's fine having a rip roaring mission that fails and we "all learn something" from failure etc. but the actual mission had better be fun and interesting in of itself. Something that the whole Finn, Rose, DJ, Phasma part of the film failed miserably at. It can't just be there to support a meaning. I can imagine it looked better on paper. His analogy with Raiders falls flat here. That whole movie is a rip roaring adventure, every damn minute. So Indy might have grown a bit by the end of the film, but it's not important. He's mistaken if that's what he thinks matters to the audience in Raiders.

I don't buy that guys character development of Poe at all, and he taking the piss with Maz.

The video might just do a good job of getting to what the director intended, and if so, I take back what
I said about it being well directed. Or it could just be the opinion of someone who liked the movie.

Jeez, with the passage of time RotJ is looking like a masterpiece.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:02 pm 


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Everything is subjective to the context of the audience. No late stage Star Wars movie can ever aspire to anything higher than "that thing grandpa was excited about 'cause he was a teenager in the 70's."

Honestly it would be better to bring back something from the past that never over-saturated its market. The Destroyer, for example.

Though it's arguable Robocop is just a reskin of The Destroyer. Everything's derivative tripe.

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No it doesn't, don't be stupid.


Okay, you're right. It's much, much worse.

The 100 page pdf was thrown together in a couple days and took five minutes to read. This video took hundreds of hours to make in order to say "it's a good thing they got rid of the only reason anyone cares about these movies - nostalgia. Now that awful Starwars can finally die and you're free to care about better things."


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:03 pm 


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dan76 wrote:
I watched that video and he makes some valid points. I've no problem with Rey being a nobody, Snoke having no back story. That's a definite modern thing where viewers are obsessed with reasons. Fuck that. Luke going into hiding is good but it's handled badly. His motivation is bonkers.

Also, it's fine having a rip roaring mission that fails and we "all learn something" from failure etc. but the actual mission had better be fun and interesting in of itself. Something that the whole Finn, Rose, DJ, Phasma part of the film failed miserably at. It can't just be there to support a meaning. I can imagine it looked better on paper. His analogy with Raiders falls flat here. That whole movie is a rip roaring adventure, every damn minute. So Indy might have grown a bit by the end of the film, but it's not important. He's mistaken if that's what he thinks matters to the audience in Raiders.

I don't buy that guys character development of Poe at all, and he taking the piss with Maz.

The video might just do a good job of getting to what the director intended, and if so, I take back what
I said about it being well directed. Or it could just be the opinion of someone who liked the movie.

Jeez, with the passage of time RotJ is looking like a masterpiece.





I never thought Jedi was that bad, some outstanding stuff in that movie!

Yes there are a few reaches in there. Maz Kanata can die in a house fire for all I care. The Raiders thing was slightly tenuous, but it demonstrated perhaps the there's room for character's to fail at something as long as they come good at the end.

I also think Finn's adventure probably sounded much better on paper, but I would have done it differently and not had Rose present at all (probably would have had Finn smart his way in and play some fantasy casino tables where you throw small creatures at something to try and get close to the mark). But I really wasn't that irked that that plan went sour and was scuppered. Why did it need to be successful? Is it really that important that everything worked out perfectly? No. Blow those transports away. At the very least Finn dropped Phasma, so it had some benefit; and Del Toro's final parting retort was actually really good.

I understand the canon fanboy who just wanted an Empire remake, but I'm not that guy. I still take issue with a lot of it and would personally change a ton of stuff; but I respect it ultimately for creatively going its own way and managing to entertain me.

I'd like to see it again but it was pulled from theatres in China within a week.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:34 pm 



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Am I the only one who thinks the scene with BB-8 shooting coins like a machine gun is far worse than any of Jar Jar's antics in the prequels?
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:05 pm 


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pegboy wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks the scene with BB-8 shooting coins like a machine gun is far worse than any of Jar Jar's antics in the prequels?


Yes, you are the only one!
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:18 am 


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pegboy wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks the scene with BB-8 shooting coins like a machine gun is far worse than any of Jar Jar's antics in the prequels?


I don't even remember that, but there was nothing that came close to Jar Jar levels here.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:16 pm 


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Skykid I have no idea who you go on the offense towards things like Blade Runner 2049 but then on the defense with things like TLJ and GitS.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:17 am 


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Strider77 wrote:
Skykid I have no idea who you go on the offense towards things like Blade Runner 2049 but then on the defense with things like TLJ and GitS.


GitS not so much, I just said it was slightly better than I expected and others claimed.

I give everything reasoned criticism (I've given TLJ plenty of criticism) but in answer to your question maybe it appears that way because of the general consensus versus reality. BR2049 has good elements to it and is a well made film, it's just a movie with problems that drag it down, and it's no way superior to the original which is probably the main reason it needs to be picked over.

TLJ, conversely, has lots of obvious problems but also has elements that elevate it by a small but distinguishable margin above the filler that occurred since 83 to now. I'm just trying to illustrate why.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:40 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
I give everything reasoned criticism (I've given TLJ plenty of criticism) but in answer to your question maybe it appears that way because of the general consensus versus reality. BR2049 has good elements to it and is a well made film, it's just a movie with problems that drag it down, and it's no way superior to the original which is probably the main reason it needs to be picked over.


I thought people that were saying it eclipsed the original were fucking nuts... but, if we're weighing the pros & cons lists of BR2049 vs TLJ, it is amazingly apparent which one has more cons. (Spoiler: TLJ)

Quote:
TLJ, conversely, has lots of obvious problems but also has elements that elevate it by a small but distinguishable margin above the filler that occurred since 83 to now. I'm just trying to illustrate why.


The problem w/ TLJ is that a lot of it is filler. It's arguable that 2049 could have snipped 20 minutes (and we know which 20 minutes you'd cut) but in the end, it's supposed to be noir cop drama... there are supposed to be lulls and whatnot. Personally I found the pacing fine. Main characters aren't supposed to escape a damaged/doomed ship which happens to be a major driving force of the plot, go somewhere for god knows how long, play poker, get arrested, ride some space camels, then come back. Being able to snip 20 minutes over the course of 160 minutes here and there is one thing. Being able to cut out a 20 minute scene is pretty unforgivable.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:45 pm 


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Just want to throw my two cents in here .. the only way Luke going full Hobowalker makes sense is if they went with the original ending idea for ROTJ, which was to have Han die heroically to save the rebellion, and Luke walking off into the sunset at the end, instead of the infuriatingly sappy teddybear pow-wow singalong (with force ghosts lol) we got instead.

(IMO, Starwars was ruined in that moment as soon as Lucas started fucking with the franchise because he wanted to sell more toys and shit, and didn't think a somber ending would help to do that.)


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:13 pm 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
Skykid wrote:
I give everything reasoned criticism (I've given TLJ plenty of criticism) but in answer to your question maybe it appears that way because of the general consensus versus reality. BR2049 has good elements to it and is a well made film, it's just a movie with problems that drag it down, and it's no way superior to the original which is probably the main reason it needs to be picked over.


I thought people that were saying it eclipsed the original were fucking nuts... but, if we're weighing the pros & cons lists of BR2049 vs TLJ, it is amazingly apparent which one has more cons. (Spoiler: TLJ)

Quote:
TLJ, conversely, has lots of obvious problems but also has elements that elevate it by a small but distinguishable margin above the filler that occurred since 83 to now. I'm just trying to illustrate why.


The problem w/ TLJ is that a lot of it is filler. It's arguable that 2049 could have snipped 20 minutes (and we know which 20 minutes you'd cut) but in the end, it's supposed to be noir cop drama... there are supposed to be lulls and whatnot. Personally I found the pacing fine. Main characters aren't supposed to escape a damaged/doomed ship which happens to be a major driving force of the plot, go somewhere for god knows how long, play poker, get arrested, ride some space camels, then come back. Being able to snip 20 minutes over the course of 160 minutes here and there is one thing. Being able to cut out a 20 minute scene is pretty unforgivable.


No idea why we're comparing BR2049 and TLJ, but for what it's worth I'd cut more than 20 minutes of 2049. I disagree the pacing is fine; it's only fine until a point, after which it's borderline badly paced and affects the film negatively.

TLJ could also use some cutting, although perplexingly the reason Canto Bight is so lackluster (possibly) is because they already cut too much. Apparently it was a far more extended sequence that lost nearly all the detail in post, so what's left is fairly unfulfilling. I would definitely trim the Luke/Rey scenes down too, I'd cut Dern entire and have Leia fill her role and hyperspace the armada instead. I'd cut Rose and have Finn go off and do his skit with BB8, and at the end they fall in love and kiss and then BB8 fucks him in the ass with a giant fluorescent blue dildo.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:56 pm 


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Udderdude wrote:
Just want to throw my two cents in here .. the only way Luke going full Hobowalker makes sense is if they went with the original ending idea for ROTJ, which was to have Han die heroically to save the rebellion, and Luke walking off into the sunset at the end, instead of the infuriatingly sappy teddybear pow-wow singalong (with force ghosts lol) we got instead.

(IMO, Starwars was ruined in that moment as soon as Lucas started fucking with the franchise because he wanted to sell more toys and shit, and didn't think a somber ending would help to do that.)


Said it before and I'll say it again, Han Solo already sacrificed himself for the rebellion in ANH, and already had his big death scene in ESB. If he sacrificed himself and died in ROTJ, it would have been redundant.

Part of ROTJ's weakness was the ewoks, but the bigger part was Harrison Ford visibly phoning it in. I don't get that about actors. If you're going to do a bad movie for the paycheck, why not pull a Dennis Quaid and be the best part of the bad move you're in?

But Ford's performance aside, I still say the positives of ROTJ outweigh the negatives, certainly more so than in TLJ. They should have just optioned the Timothy Zahn novels while the actors were still young enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:31 pm 


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Mischief Maker wrote:
Said it before and I'll say it again, Han Solo already sacrificed himself for the rebellion in ANH, and already had his big death scene in ESB. If he sacrificed himself and died in ROTJ, it would have been redundant.


Seeing him clowning around doing the same old shit in TFA makes me feel otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) released 12/15/2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:59 pm 


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Udderdude wrote:
(IMO, Starwars was ruined in that moment as soon as Lucas started fucking with the franchise because he wanted to sell more toys and shit, and didn't think a somber ending would help to do that.)
This.

Plus, Lucas knew Ford wanted Han to bow out with a heroic death but got all "fuck you, its my story and you are going nowhere".
I suspect this is the reason Ford agreed to a come back for TFA. He got to force Lucas to watch Han die a bitch's death at the hands of his emo son.
This Patricide felt to me, like Ford laying Lucas to rest.
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