Looking forward to "NX"? (aka The Switch Thread)

[trap15]

Also I'm going to go on the record with saying OoT is garbage and MM is just ok. But Cave Story and Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier are amazing games.

[Obscura]

that Cave Story is actually good [...] that Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier are brilliant games instead of bad Contra: Hard Corps rip-offs

Damn dude, have you never even played any of these games? lmfao

Yep, I've played all of them.

Cave Story is just an indie version of the Shantae games -- supposed "Metroidvanias" that missed that one of the big selling points of the Metroid games was that the "keys" changed how you approached combat and moving in general, rather than just being used to fit specialized locks. An absurdly easy platformer with an awful "pastel" color palette, terrible sprite work, and almost non-existent action. No fucking thank you.

Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier were both a case of Treasure saying "hey, boss-rush Contra with a lifebar turned out pretty popular when we made that with Konami, let's do it again with an even larger lifebar!". Then they managed to make both designs worse still -- in the case of GSH by including a weapon combination that turns the whole game into "hold down fire button, walk forward", and in the case of Alien Soldier, building the boss fights around Simon Says usage of invincibility frames. Both games are garbage, AS is the worse of the two.

A good rule of thumb on any "hidden gem" -- if a game wasn't a big hit in the U.S., and you'd get digital high-fives for posting about it on HotU, ttlg, NeoGAF, Tigsource, or any similar site, it's total shit that people only praise because of ingroup signalling. Yes, this includes Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, every western indie platformer, every "quirky" puzzler, every low-budget Unity game, and every stupid "art" game. It's all trash that's only praised because praising it is how you fit in.

[BrianC]

Cave Story is just an indie version of the Shantae games -- supposed "Metroidvanias" that missed that one of the big selling points of the Metroid games was that the "keys" changed how you approached combat and moving in general, rather than just being used to fit specialized locks. An absurdly easy platformer with an awful "pastel" color palette, terrible sprite work, and almost non-existent action.

Sounds like you didn't even play half the game. I don't know how anyone who has played all the way through Cave Story can say it has non-existent action.

Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier were both a case of Treasure saying "hey, boss-rush Contra with a lifebar turned out pretty popular when we made that with Konami, let's do it again with an even larger lifebar!". Then they managed to make both designs worse still -- in the case of GSH by including a weapon combination that turns the whole game into "hold down fire button, walk forward", and in the case of Alien Soldier, building the boss fights around Simon Says usage of invincibility frames. Both games are garbage, AS is the worse of the two.

Just how much did you play these games? Gunstar Heroes predated Hard Corps and most Contra games had very little Treasure involvement, if any. Considering the huge amount of variety in Gunstar Heroes, I doubt "hold down fire button, walk forward" works in most stages. That's a huge oversimplification of AS that seems to ignore the boss and enemy designs, as well.

A good rule of thumb on any "hidden gem" -- if a game wasn't a big hit in the U.S., and you'd get digital high-fives for posting about it on HotU, ttlg, NeoGAF, Tigsource, or any similar site, it's total shit that people only praise because of ingroup signalling. Yes, this includes Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, every western indie platformer, every "quirky" puzzler, every low-budget Unity game, and every stupid "art" game. It's all trash that's only praised because praising it is how you fit in.

(insert silly internet meme here)

[Skykid]

that Majora's Mask isn't the worst title that Nintendo ever developed and anything other than a low-effort cash-grab

"Low effort cash-grab"

You're currently somewhere between perfect troll and perfect dunce. It's obvious you know absolutely nothing about the game, stop posting.

A 10/10 masterpiece that'll render all other games obsolete for all time.

I can better that. I have no problem singing the praises of one of the most impressive games ever written.

There's a lot of wilful ignorance on display in this thread. You're so chronically wrong you don't even deserve argument.

Sounds like I should just play Ocarina again then. It's been a while.

If you revisit it do what I did and go 3DS XL. Visually improved and really beautiful is only one bonus - the convenience of instant sleep and other handheld attributes are godsends for busy people.

Small game related advice: OoT is a slow burner initially. It's rarely mentioned but the game doesn't catch fire until Link Quantum Leaps to the Hyrule end-times because everything before is masked training. Stick with it.

[Obscura]

Sounds like you didn't even play half the game. I don't know how anyone who has played all the way through Cave Story can say it has non-existent action.

I've finished it and gotten both the regular and secret endings. Its action is like a parody of all of the ultra-dull post-SotN Metroidvanias, except slower. Garbage game.

Just how much did you play these games? Gunstar Heroes predated Hard Corps and most Contra games had very little Treasure involvement, if any. Considering the huge amount of variety in Gunstar Heroes, I doubt "hold down fire button, walk forward" works in most stages. That's a huge oversimplification of AS that seems to ignore the boss and enemy designs, as well.

Beat GSH, played about half-way through Alien Soldier.

You can beat about 90% of GSH (basically everything other than Seven Force and Golden Silver) by just choosing H+H and holding forward. I wasn't aware it predated Hard Corps though; I thought that all of the major Konami Genesis games were done by the Treasure team before they left?

Low effort cash-grab

Yes, it was a low-effort cash-grab. The entire 3-days system was to mask how little content the game had by forcing you to replay everything over and over. The sidequests that were literally about half the game that consisted of "sit in one place, wait for someone in town to trigger a certain event, and if you aren't looking in the right direction, start the quest over and replay the last 30 minutes" were another way they masked it, and were fucking terrible to actually play.

MM was a rushed, low-effort game that Nintendo made to sell expansion PAKs because they figured anything would sell if they slapped the Zelda name on it.

(That said, I do quite like OoT. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's one of the best games ever, but it's certainly one of the most important, and it is damn good in its own right.)

[Skykid]

Yes, it was a low-effort cash-grab. The entire 3-days system was to mask how little content the game had by forcing you to replay everything over and over. The sidequests that were literally about half the game that consisted of "sit in one place, wait for someone in town to trigger a certain event, and if you aren't looking in the right direction, start the quest over and replay the last 30 minutes" were another way they masked it, and were fucking terrible to actually play.

MM was a rushed, low-effort game that Nintendo made to sell expansion PAKs because they figured anything would sell if they slapped the Zelda name on it.

You can keep saying this until you're blue in the face, and it won't make you any less incorrect.

MM's 3 days to apocalypse system is not only one of the most ambitious things in all of gaming's short history, it's also odds-defyingly successful. Its implementation coupled with the mask collecting, coupled with finishing the central game, coupled with the Fierce Deity is nothing short of one of the finest timeline headfucks ever devised. It's like Back to the Future X100. As you start to wrap up the remaining threads that exist in and around doomed Clocktown - it in itself the game's central character - discovering things that have been occurring since you arrived but never knew, like an elven Columbo on acid, it's revelatory. And all this before heading off to the Stone Temple valley for one of the most vicious dungeon climaxes in all of Zeldadom. It's like, inverted.

I'm perfectly happy to call a spade a spade. I know where the series fell off the wagon and never managed to get back on: but the N64 games aren't just the highest point for the series, they represent some of the most impressive craftsmanship in gaming.

[Squire Grooktook]

That, and it's also thematically and atmospherically gorgeous, with some beautiful moments and setpieces. One of only a handful of games that I truly love for the story.

[Xyga]

MM 'rushed' lol.

There's like tens of thousands games shamelessly stuffed with fake content that don't do a 10th of what MM does to make it worth your time.
An immense part of game design is the art of filling the blanks, otherwise games would be just a single stage/boss period.
MM is one of those games that does it master-level.

And it's still one of the best ambassadors of pre-128bit polygonal 3D, ram cart controversy my ass, it's incredible the work they've done on a puny cartridge.
Actually many early 128bit games looked really poor next to it.

[BIL]

I wasn't aware [Gunstar Heroes] predated Hard Corps though; I thought that all of the major Konami Genesis games were done by the Treasure team before they left?

The TREASURE TEAM... Could they be the same shadowy cabal who'd go on to ban M-RATED SOFTS from my NINTENDO GC?!

No for real It's Contra Spirits (92) that future Treasure employees worked on, and which informed their and Konami's later miniboss/setpiece-driven 16-bit work (Gunstar & Alien Soldier / Rocket Knight, Hard Corps & Vampire Killer). I think Bucky O'Hare (FC)'s worth mentioning too. Not a bossfest, but Masato Maegawa and Nobuya Nakazato had prominent roles and its pacing unmistakably prefigures the above works.

Alien Soldier, building the boss fights around Simon Says usage of invincibility frames.

If any of your AS boss fights resemble Simon Says, ie passively waiting about to dodge, you're playing like shit, making the game look like shit and no doubt having a shit time (or blindly raving about the game regardless because noobs lmao). The performance ceiling is very high in Alien Soldier, and there aren't many bosses you can't rip apart in extremely short order. The few you can't tend to cripple/kill you for dashing without sufficient initiative and finesse. You can thrash them too it's just less optional.

The game's analogue isn't Hard Corps btw, it's The Super Shinobi. Both are high-performance assault courses revolving around limited ammo, risky short-ranged attacks, and an enormous powerdown-on-damage penalty that turns them into one-hit killers at advanced level. The idea is to play ever more authoritatively and aggressively, reaping the enormous firepower boost and burning the course to the ground. Both games are comparatively halting, stilted affairs when you're learning the ropes, but so are lots of other good things that pay off persistence.

A good rule of thumb on any "hidden gem" -- if a game wasn't a big hit in the U.S., and you'd get digital high-fives for posting about it on HotU, ttlg, NeoGAF, Tigsource, or any similar site, it's total shit that people only praise because of ingroup signalling. Yes, this includes Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, every western indie platformer, every "quirky" puzzler, every low-budget Unity game, and every stupid "art" game. It's all trash that's only praised because praising it is how you fit in.

It all sounds so awful :[

[neorichieb1971]

I just want fun games minus all the trophy crap. It would help if old school games made a come back in a colourful and artful way with some good old fashioned control mechanisms and angles.

There is no need for every console to have an uncharted 4 look alike.

[Squire Grooktook]

Alien Soldier Defense Force Assemble

All true. Also in order to damage boss weakpoints efficiently, you often have to manually dodge attacks by outspacing them rather then use the Zero Teleport. Zero Teleport's often kill your chance to punish enemies early game, and outright kill you late game.

[BrianC]

You can beat about 90% of GSH (basically everything other than Seven Force and Golden Silver) by just choosing H+H and holding forward. I wasn't aware it predated Hard Corps though; I thought that all of the major Konami Genesis games were done by the Treasure team before they left?

A good chunk of GSH are vechicle or other stages where you can't just hold forward. That's moot, though. H+H is far from the most powerful weapon. It takes care of popcorn enemies quickly, but it's not great for bosses. It's also much weaker on hard and expert mode.

Konami was fairly late to the party for Genesis/MD and, as far as I know, didn't make games for the system until after Treasure left. Mobygames has credits for a good chunk of the games. Nobuya Nakazato is the director for Rocket Knight, Hard Corps, and Contra Spirits and he's Konami.

Well said, BIL on Alien Soldier. I haven't gotten that far in the game, but I know for sure that it's a challenging game that can't be oversimplified into a game of Simon Says.

[cj iwakura]

Not even remotely. No interest in a Wii U, even less in this. I want Nintendo gone. They're anti-consumer, antiquated, and need to go. Let Sega buy them, that'll be some poetic justice.

[Lord Satori]

You'd trust Sega of all companies with Nintendo? Maybe in the past, yes. But now?

[cj iwakura]

You'd trust Sega of all companies with Nintendo? Maybe in the past, yes. But now?

Well... I can count on them to destroy their IPs. I'll settle for that. But yeah, all their best talents are long gone, sadly.

Would still be pretty hilarious, though.

[Bonus!]

Not even remotely. No interest in a Wii U, even less in this. I want Nintendo gone. They're anti-consumer, antiquated, and need to go. Let Sega buy them, that'll be some poetic justice.

Now that is some confused drivel! Is Nintendo anti-consumer because their games aren't discounted by 70% after a couple of weeks and $60 is too much for your wallet or what? Compared to the usual DLC/microtransaction bullshit in the industry, Nintendo puts their competitors to shame. Just think about the fact that in 2015 or 2016 there is more or less just one publisher (Nintendo) that releases polished, bug free games that hit their performance target (normally 60 fps), and if they put out DLC, like with Mario Kart 8, it offers a lot for the money. They also offer free online multiplayer, as the only one of the three remaining console manufacturers.

[Skykid]

Not even remotely. No interest in a Wii U, even less in this. I want Nintendo gone. They're anti-consumer, antiquated, and need to go. Let Sega buy them, that'll be some poetic justice.

Now that is some confused drivel!

Yeah, and pretty shocking too. Wouldn't it be wonderful to just have Sony and Microsoft around to contribute almost nothing of note to gaming.

No.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Who did like Mario Kart Wii better than WipEout HD?

[iconoclast]

Examples of Nintendo being anti-consumer: region-locked consoles, censorship, locking game content behind overpriced Happy Meal toys, not including an AC adapter with the New 3DS, having to buy an ethernet port adapter for the Wii U or you're stuck with wi-fi, etc. They're much worse than Sony & Microsoft. But to be fair, some of the things they do is probably a result of being so far behind the times & general incompetence more than anything.

Who did like Mario Kart Wii better than WipEout HD?

I liked Wipeout HD about 100x more than MK Wii. On the topic of Sega though, Sonic Transformed is better any Mario Kart.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sumo Digital developed Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing and Racing Transformered, but I do like F-Zero GX.

[BryanM]

censorship

For those who don't follow the Tensei thread, they've censored the shadows cast by HIP BONES.

Shadows. They censored shadows.

If you had remotely a similar childhood experience of feeling like the US gaming market was second class, this sort of thing is deeply triggering.

[cj iwakura]

Examples of Nintendo being anti-consumer: region-locked consoles, censorship, locking game content behind overpriced Happy Meal toys, not including an AC adapter with the New 3DS, having to buy an ethernet port adapter for the Wii U or you're stuck with wi-fi, etc. They're much worse than Sony & Microsoft. But to be fair, some of the things they do is probably a result of being so far behind the times & general incompetence more than anything.

This, pretty much.

When Microsoft is willing to be region free and you're not, something is wrong.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Wasn't 3DS the first ever region-locked HANDHELD console too? That's some programme for the future they had.

[Bonus!]

Examples of Nintendo being anti-consumer: region-locked consoles, censorship, locking game content behind overpriced Happy Meal toys, not including an AC adapter with the New 3DS, having to buy an ethernet port adapter for the Wii U or you're stuck with wi-fi, etc. They're much worse than Sony & Microsoft. But to be fair, some of the things they do is probably a result of being so far behind the times & general incompetence more than anything.

- region locking: The Xbone was the first region-free M$ console, the PS3 the first region-free Sony console. Nintendo consoles were never region free, but their handhelds were up to the 3DS. Yes, it's mildly annoying, but not really such a big deal.

- censorship: that's pretty much overblown

- Amiibos: from what I gather, you get some throwaway game content for swiping Amiibos. Splatoon may be an exception with the missions. Otherwise, it does not seem you are losing out on a lot.

- missing AC adapter: the party line is that 3DS users all own a DS anyway, and can simply reuse the old AC adapter

- ethernet adapter for Wii U: I was not aware that such a product even existed, considering that Wifi is standard nowadays. Who is behind the times, iconoclast?

But let's ignore all of this, and point out that you get FREE multiplayer on Wii U. It is ludicrous that M$ managed to get the market to accept paying for online multiplayer (even if it's just peer to peer), and Sony jumped on that opportunity quickly afterwards with online passes in some PS3 games, and, with the PS4, pulling up a pay wall. Let's say you use your PS4 or Xbone for five years. How much will you pay for online multiplayer? Now put pencil and paper away and answer: Who is anti-consumer?

[Lord Satori]

Do I even need to point out the bullshit Microsoft tried to pull when the Xbone first launched? Not in a million years would Nintendo even attempt such a thing.

[Blinge]

Oh I prefered mario kart wii to wipeout because I actually found myself playing mario kart with others.

- Amiibos: from what I gather, you get some throwaway game content for swiping Amiibos. Splatoon may be an exception with the missions. Otherwise, it does not seem you are losing out on a lot.

It's still absolute bullshit. No game content should make me have to buy a toy. Nothing.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Well, try playing both without others and see which works for you under such circumstances.
I'd say by the year 2008, serviceable single-player wasn't too much to ask of a series this old (somehow, Crash Team Racing had it back in 1999).

[BryanM]

- censorship: that's pretty much overblown

Triggered

[cj iwakura]

Do I even need to point out the bullshit Microsoft tried to pull when the Xbone first launched? Not in a million years would Nintendo even attempt such a thing.

They're no saints. But Nintendo sure aren't getting a free pass from me until they figure out what the words 'account system' mean.

[Squire Grooktook]

You'd trust Sega of all companies with Nintendo? Maybe in the past, yes. But now?

Well... I can count on them to destroy their IPs. I'll settle for that. But yeah, all their best talents are long gone, sadly.

Would still be pretty hilarious, though.

Yeah well, I hope a publisher/developer you like goes under too!