Brexit: Leave wins!

[MintyTheCat]

Hello all,

as a Brit I am some what interested to find out what might happen should the UK vote to leave the EU.

Things look to be fairly close for leave and remain.

How are the rest of you lot thinking and what sort of effects can you foresee for leaving and remaining?

Chiefly my main concern would be that London would not be as strong in the financial sector and thought that Frankfurt might take its place. Given how much the UK relies on its service and financial industry this could be a real issue.

Cheers,

Minty.

[Xyga]

Dunno about the higher implications, we're hearing all sorts of tunes, but I can tell at least on the simple practical level that it could turn out very annoying for business.
When I was shipping stuff in and out the UK we didn't have to bother with taxes and all kinds of regulations.
Save for the exchage rate fluctuations and plug adapters, business with the UK was overall smooth and profitable, second in my book after Germany.

But I'm no longer in online retail so whatever, I'm more concerned about tourism, because I have a project in mind that might become a reality in about 2~3 years, and British customers would defintely be missed if vacations to southern France would become less interesting for them on the finances side.

[TransatlanticFoe]

The "leave" campaign is, at best, built on fabrication and panders to xenophobia. It's also headed up by some of the more revolting major figures in British politics. Dave and George are saints by comparison.

They say we'll save money not paying into the EU and we'll spend it on public services... the kind of public services they want to see privatised or eliminated.

They claim immigration is putting pressure on schools and public services, which is a total lie - net migration makes up about a third of our population growth. About a third of net migration is from the EU. So unless you want to keep everyone out.... oh wait, you probably do. Privatisation, catchment area tourism, ties to organised religion and chasing league tables are much bigger threats to our schools, not EU migration.

They say the EU passes laws by people not democratically elected? Yeah the elected European parliament still has to ratify what the "unelected bureacrats" come up with and that's just as democratic as our system... actually our system is less democratic. Our laws are ratified by an unelected second chamber made up of people who give money to a ruling party! What's more, parliament is little more than a "we have more than you" majority rule mud slinging contest - so you can write to your MP but tough titties because they have to tow the party line. A third of the eligible population didn't even vote in the last election. We can hardly lecture the EU for not being democratic.

The "remain" campaign is basically saying everything will go to hell if we leave. Rather than actually bigging up the EU as a political force for good. The chancellor saying house prices will go down if we leave? Classic Tory idiot only thinking of his own - most people would be happy with that because they can't afford a bloody house!

I don't see how anything can be better leaving the EU, frankly. But the whole thing is being presented revoltingly by both sides.

[Bitter Almonds]

That xenophobic and privatisation of public services sentiment sounds like a normal day here in the U.S.

[Blinge]

The "leave" campaign is, at best, built on fabrication and panders to xenophobia. It's also headed up by some of the more revolting major figures in British politics. Dave and George are saints by comparison.

I don't see how anything can be better leaving the EU, frankly. But the whole thing is being presented revoltingly by both sides.

Pretty much this. It's a race to the bottom and I'm fucking sick of it.
My own family members are posting utter moronic shite in favour of brexit. Urgh.

[MintyTheCat]

The "remain" campaign is basically saying everything will go to hell if we leave. Rather than actually bigging up the EU as a political force for good. The chancellor saying house prices will go down if we leave? Classic Tory idiot only thinking of his own - most people would be happy with that because they can't afford a bloody house!

They do this to appeal to the crusty old, "still an Empire" voting types - the ones who bought up all the government owned properties in the late 1980s/early 90s and rent at what ever rate (still not regulated on the rental market in the UK - how's that for bloody democracy eh?) to people my age and younger who fear 'losing money' as we pay out to them at silly rates - you never get value for money in the UK and yes, it does feel like a race to the bottom.

[CStarFlare]

As a non-European who's going to need a new visa to stay in the UK past the beginning of 2017, I'm not sure if Brexit would complicate or simplify my transition to a more permanent status. Better the devil I know, I think.

As a non-Brit I don't really have any emotional involvement in the question, and most of the leave campaign seems to be built on emotion. So when the issue arises I usually back out and say I'm not really qualified to have an opinion. But I suspect Brexit would create a lot of ill will towards the British, and I'm far from convinced that and the complexities of disentangling from the EU would be at all worth it. Same way I felt about the Scotland referendum, basically - no stated position but very skeptical.

[MintyTheCat]

As a non-European who's going to need a new visa to stay in the UK past the beginning of 2017, I'm not sure if Brexit would complicate or simplify my transition to a more permanent status. Better the devil I know, I think.

As a non-Brit I don't really have any emotional involvement in the question, and most of the leave campaign seems to be built on emotion. So when the issue arises I usually back out and say I'm not really qualified to have an opinion. But I suspect Brexit would create a lot of ill will towards the British, and I'm far from convinced that and the complexities of disentangling from the EU would be at all worth it. Same way I felt about the Scotland referendum, basically - no stated position but very skeptical.

The thing is, with the UK and Germany being the top economies in the EU for the UK GDP wise (http://statisticstimes.com/economy/euro ... by-gdp.php), to leave the EU would fundamentally change a great deal within the EU, Europe and further.

I think your Visa situation will require the same procedure as before as it will take years to sort out. I very much doubt it will change much for you as you are someone from outside the EU. But what I will say, as I found through friends is that they have made it quite a bit more involved for people outside the EU say from Australia and Japan the last six or seven years back and this may be due to them being aware of people moving in. What I find amazing though is that in the UK they do not know how many people live in a given place and where they are from - in Germany this is nearly impossible so when they talk about numbers they are accurate.

Yes, it is a proper, emotional puppet show and this concerns me. I see it more from a trade/money perspective myself. It would make things more involved for UK citizens living in EU states too but, again, it will take some time to come through and no doubt there will be cut offs. For me, given that I have resided for some years outside the UK I dare say it is easier to make a claim for being a long-term resident.

[CStarFlare]

I think your Visa situation will require the same procedure as before as it will take years to sort out. I very much doubt it will change much for you as you are someone from outside the EU. But what I will say, as I found through friends is that they have made it quite a bit more involved for people outside the EU say from Australia and Japan the last six or seven years back and this may be due to them being aware of people moving in. What I find amazing though is that in the UK they do not know how many people live in a given place and where they are from - in Germany this is nearly impossible so when they talk about numbers they are accurate.

I expect the biggest immediate change in case of Brexit would be that a lot of Europeans who have been here will scramble to get themselves worked out, clogging the queue and destroying the quota (if it's not adjusted in anticipation for this event). The quota thing scares me most - I really should just jump on anyone who'll sponsor me.

I'm on a school visa at the moment so my path is easier than it would be if I tried to apply from the US. Anecdotally Americans have an easier time getting their hands on a work visa after school than any other non-EU group, but I think that's largely connected to employers being more willing to sponsor us rather than a part of the process that is in our favor.

[soprano1]

Guess all those nurses taught and trained by Portuguese taxpayers money will have to come back and practise here. Good for us, not for them, since most of them, and i know quite a few, wanted to settle and live in England, not in this crap country.
Of course, that's if the UK exits the EU.
edit: Also, the Algarve region will stop being a British resort. That's bad for turism, but maybe the locals who work in that sector will stop being assholes to anybody who doesn't speak English (And yes, this is true, you are treated differently depending on your nationality).

[Cee]

I'm voting leave on democratic preservation principles and i'm massively opposed to this step towards Globalization model we are seeing and all that it entails but it doesn't really matter if we leave or not, the E.U is going to collapse either way. Before someone says the same retarded short sighted bullshit about not wanting to give more power to the tories just try to digest that if we leave and power is restored you can vote them out at the next election and know your choice is accountable and capable of actually doing things as opposed to remaining and no matter who we vote in basically forever being nothing more than wing clipped mouth pieces for brussels who can hear our cries and do nothing with them.

and most of the leave campaign seems to be built on emotion.

You have to be kidding! the absolute opposite is true and although both sides have had their moments the remain camp has hit new levels of obnoxious with all the rich who benefit the most from staying in funding this constant barrage of absolute scare mongering shite. The British media is behaving as abhorrently unfair and biased as the left leaning american media have with trump regardless of your personal views.

The "leave" campaign is, at best, built on fabrication and panders to xenophobia. It's also headed up by some of the more revolting major figures in British politics. Dave and George are saints by comparison.

I don't see how anything can be better leaving the EU, frankly. But the whole thing is being presented revoltingly by both sides.

Pretty much this. It's a race to the bottom and I'm fucking sick of it.
My own family members are posting utter moronic shite in favour of brexit. Urgh.

No offence but i'l wager a bet that you're both estrogen drenched beta leftist cucks "nu males" and unfortunately that brainwashing you received from our glorious education system will have you seeing everything you don't agree with as "xenophobic" regardless of whether it's sensible or otherwise. The fact you are more interested in identity politics and trying to align yourself with politicians you like rather than the message you believe to be right clarifies this. Guardian readers basically.

[Tarma]

Ok, first of all nothing is going to happen over night if the UK votes to leave. There will be no apocolyptic collapse of the economy or anythingelse.

In the first few days or weeks the FTSE may fall slightly and the pound may fall as well, but when the dust has settled it'll be business as usual.

I'm all for what the EU originally was set up for - a trading block. What I cannot abide by is all the social and legal crap that has come along since the 1970's. IF we leave there will be a trade agreement set up and fairly quickly. The EU needs to trade with us just as we need to trade with them. The UK has the biggest new car market in Europe. If the EU starts trying to hit us with trade tariffs the government will do the same to EU imports -
Just think what would happen to sales of BMW, Mercedes, GM, PSA, Renault, Ford Europe etc. They may not all be European businesses, but all their major models (save for GM's Astra) are manufactured in continental Europe. The biggest car plants in the UK are now owned by the Japanese (Nissan / Toyota / Honda) with only Ellesmere Port and Cowley producing volume for European manufacturers. In fact it was membership of the then EEC that resulted in trade tariffs being scrapped on European imported vehicles which then went on to undermine the British car making industry! And when the government has tried to set in and doing something to help industry, they can't because it's against EU law! Case in point - the current issues with the UK steel. I'm not for nationalisation of any industry, but government should be free to assist if it feels it constructive to do so without having to worry about what Brussels thinks.

EU heads will whine like anything between now and the referendum and make all kinds of veiled threats, but the fact of the matter is there will be a trade agreement, and it won't take years to set up.

As far as immigration goes, it is a problem for this country, and it will get worse. If you don't see it now, go to London or any other major UK city. This country is an island, and as such it can only sustain a certain population at any one time. As part of the EU we cannot control immigration effectively. I'm all for anyone from any country coming here to share their skills and work hard. But there are plenty who come through the system who are not like that.
If the EU would allow us greater control, then fine, but they won't, but the continent does not have the same land issues we do.
The other issue with immigration is that our current social welfare system is not fit for purpose. It was devised in the 1950's when the UK and the world as a whole was a different place, and it needs overhauling. Any government, Labour or Conservative will struggle like fuck to do anything meaningful with the social welfare system while EU laws remain as they are.

There are loads of other issues with the EU, it's not efficient, the beaucracy is unreal, and there are fundamental differences between the social identities of many of the member states., etc etc etc.

The problem is, there are too few people out there who know how the EU works and what it does and doesn't do. And then in lies the rub. There will be people voting for both leave and remain for all the wrong reasons, and those people will be most of those who turn out to vote. The propoganda spewing from both sides does not help and is not constructive. It would have been a far easier campaign if Cameron had not got his concessions... although I have my doubts they're worth the paper they're written on...

The UK is better off out of the EU as it is in its current form, and I sincerely hope the whole thing collapses afterward. Because if it doesn't now, I'll bet you all the Ibara Kuro kits in the world it will sooner or later... it is inevitable I'm afraid.

It was fine as a trading block until some socialist liberal loon decided that maybe we'd all be better off together as one big super state

[Zen]

Evening all.

Christ almighty!
I was wondering how long the pro-euro cucks could keep this hugbox of a thread contained (I see that Tarma and Cee have crashed the party )
TransatlanticFoe came in, with post 3, and in the first sentence of his post waved around the progressive/regressive "xenophobia". Oh, and CStarFlare is worried about visa issues.

Jesus wept!

One of the cornerstones of western civilization stands at the precipice of final digestion by a super-state and these are the concerns being proffered?

Kudos to Cee.
To Tarma; I feel that you are being too diplomatic in your analysis but I congratulate you on your post.
To the forum in general; is there no one else? Is there no Englishman willing to speak?

[trap15]

What the fuck is with you weirdos and the word cuck, holy shit.

[system11]

What the fuck is with you weirdos and the word cuck, holy shit.

This. 2 day ban for anyone who used this retarded word.

Also - it would be interesting to see this discussion play out, and politics threads always get ugly because there are people who can't accept others views without getting self righteously abusive about it. It'll end up locked if that continues.

As for the issue I'm actually on the fence about it. I do think the country is overcrowded but then so is the entire planet, leaving Europe isn't going to make a massive difference in that area I expect. I do wonder why so many people in other countries seem to think the roads are paved with gold here, a majority of people are struggling to get by with pressures such as high rent and housing costs, high utility bills, high food costs, high fuel costs and so on. I suppose it beats not having clean water and dodging missiles though.

I do hate the European 'project'. I'm really feeling some of what Tarma said - the trading block was a good thing, but integrating Europe seems like a car crash waiting to happen - you can't unite fundamentally different economies without there being some tears. More countries than really should have been eligible have been added to the mix, because it's a pet project of some elite political daydreamers. They're still papering over the cracks at the moment where companies have been using it to move their tax burdens, and we can see how much fun Spain have had.

On the other hand, I fundamentally distrust governments and politicians. All of them. We get to vote for some people based on what they /claim/ they might do for the next few years. Once that has happened they go on and do whatever the fuck they like. As a member of Europe our government is bound by some of the rulings of the EU courts - and UK governments really are petty control freaks. I feel like being in Europe somewhat protects us from the draconian nightmare we'd otherwise end up with. There's also a lot of wisdom in 'better the devil you know' - we roughly know what happens if we remain. Nobody knows what happens if we leave.

I'll probably vote to stay because I'm risk averse.

[MintyTheCat]

As far as immigration goes, it is a problem for this country, and it will get worse. If you don't see it now, go to London or any other major UK city. This country is an island, and as such it can only sustain a certain population at any one time. As part of the EU we cannot control immigration effectively.

I agree. But I feel that to be honest each successive UK government did not do enough to control immigration. We have had the same issue arise each time at pretty much every election as far back as I can remember - Immigration - and basically nothing happened. I saw a massive change in the UK, and sure, the UK by its nature is a pretty mixed and liberal place all told but it very much so felt like an invasion and normal people (keep in mind that Brits on the most part only speak English and would not easily consider moving to non english speaking countries) do not benefit greatly from being able to reside in any EU nation so I feel it is more over for most people a 'one way system' EU wise for the Brits unless of course you consider the ones who retire in Spain, France and Greece that is and even then they tend to cluster in areas that have English spoken. In all my time in Germany for example I have never met or even heard a single Brit who lives here as very few Brits speak any level of German I find which is the first obstacle for most.

So I firmly blame the UK government for being lax over its immigration policy and it was one of the reasons I decided to leave the UK as I got bored with all the lies and empty promises - that and the ridiculous high cost of living and I was not on a bad salary either but I had no idea how most people managed.

The other issue with immigration is that our current social welfare system is not fit for purpose. It was devised in the 1950's when the UK and the world as a whole was a different place, and it needs overhauling. Any government, Labour or Conservative will struggle like fuck to do anything meaningful with the social welfare system while EU laws remain as they are.

I agree, the welfare system is pretty hit and miss, inadequate, inefficient, wasteful and no one wishes to die waiting for medical care or be thrust into almost instant poverty if unemployed. Sadly, that is how many people experience it.

The problem is, there are too few people out there who know how the EU works and what it does and doesn't do. And then in lies the rub. There will be people voting for both leave and remain for all the wrong reasons, and those people will be most of those who turn out to vote. The propoganda spewing from both sides does not help and is not constructive. It would have been a far easier campaign if Cameron had not got his concessions... although I have my doubts they're worth the paper they're written on...

Yes, this is one of my greater concerns too that people respond to pretty childish ploys all too often but essentially that is how a democracy works and every one gets a vote regardless

As for the issue I'm actually on the fence about it. I do think the country is overcrowded but then so is the entire planet, leaving Europe isn't going to make a massive difference in that area I expect. I do wonder why so many people in other countries seem to think the roads are paved with gold here, a majority of people are struggling to get by with pressures such as high rent and housing costs, high utility bills, high food costs, high fuel costs and so on. I suppose it beats not having clean water and dodging missiles though.

100% it is overcrowded and especially the south-east where I used to reside. It is incredibly expensive in the UK these days and I can only think of one other country that I found to be more expensive and that was Switzerland when I was in Zürich, but again, you are in a very safe country in Switzerland with decent systems that work so I never have any issues in paying more either way. The UK, on the other hand is bloody dangerous these days and I can feel the crime that comes across as being a bit weird these days as I simply never feel it when in Germany.

The UK generally has a pretty good international reputation and I often find that it is readily exploited. Certainly, businesses with their sob stories about the idle Brit worker rely on people coming in. One important metric though that rarely is considered is to determine how many people reside in the UK and for how long and what their origin countries were. I think that we may well find that the proportions and numbers are skewed. To me, I feel that a person needs to reside in the UK for at least eight years and really a lot longer for it to count as the person being a resident otherwise, it is more of a work exercise. The results should be banded according to levels: less than one year, less than two years, etc. What counts for businesses I feel on the most part will be EU nationals and non EU natioanls that come in, work, reside for maybe a couple of years or less then leave and provided that continues then the businesses get their cheap labour. I do not think this helps people generally or the community when there is a constant "move in, move out" transition action going on, in fact, it makes things more chaotic and disruptive and you find less social cohesion as a result.

I had an experience when I was still living and working in the UK whereby I had to employ an Engineer and I literally was given twenty CVs and not a single one was from a Brit. Given that back in 2009 the UK was in recession and people had been laid off work you would imagine that there may well have been some UK Engineers looking for employment.
So I said to the HR lady "er, can we have some Brit CVs please?" and the look on her face was a picture and she told me "we prefer to employ others" and then came up with this cover story for "highly skilled workers, tier 4...", etc. but basically it boiled down to "we want to have more control over people and foreigners and in particular those from outside the EU are easier for us to control as they can lose their Visas and be thrown out so we hold them to it and get our pound of flesh", and not to mention how they would offer crap salaries due to the foreigner being less informed of the going rate and more willing to accept anything.

Of course, we employed a Brit Engineer and stuck the proverbial two fingers up to HR but that is the top and bottom of it: they are out to exploit foreigners and these laws make it very easy: "what was that, you won't work 60 hours a week when you are salaried for 40 and give up your weekends?" - "instant P45, next".

On the other hand, I fundamentally distrust governments and politicians. All of them.

This is exactly how it should be done: grant them powers but only loan those powers to the government otherwise you lose everything and if we keep giving it they will simply take it away and give us less and less back.

[Immryr]

have you people actually looked at the net migration statistics for the uk?

[system11]

have you people actually looked at the net migration statistics for the uk?

Hard to avoid them at the moment. Here's one from the Office of National Statistics:

[Tarma]

I do hate the European 'project'. I'm really feeling some of what Tarma said - the trading block was a good thing, but integrating Europe seems like a car crash waiting to happen - you can't unite fundamentally different economies without there being some tears. More countries than really should have been eligible have been added to the mix, because it's a pet project of some elite political daydreamers. They're still papering over the cracks at the moment where companies have been using it to move their tax burdens, and we can see how much fun Spain have had.

On the other hand, I fundamentally distrust governments and politicians.

Indeed it is. Although, I'd say it'll be more like an airline crash than a car wreck. Spain, Portugal and Greece still have massive financial issues, and there is a big question mark over how many of former Eastern Bloc countries contribute because their economies are way behind Western European ones. If there is to be a financial "penalty" we're better off suffering it now on the Out vote than wait until we get pulled under by some European country that decides it doesn't want to pull its weight anymore.

There is only so much bailing out the Germans will do. I believe Merkel is already treading a fine line between EU Champion and alienating herself from the German people who are getting pissed off with immigration themselves and bailing out other countries. And the French aren't far behind that either.

It's a shame that the Brexit debate has turned into a mass bun fight, but hopefully people will see past that and realise that on balance we are better off out and that it will not equal the apocalypse.

Oh, and for those ranting that many wanting out are simply old fuddies harking back to the days of Empire, let me remind you a referendum was held regarding entering the EU (then the EEC) and that generation and younger voted in. We joined on the basis of being sold the trade benefits, nothing else. And there are trade benefits, but now these are eclipsed by the legislation, beaucracy and social implications that simply are not compatible with the British socio-economic and legal models, and I dare say are becoming incompatible elsewhere - you just don't hear about it.
I also seriously doubt there are many people left in the UK who remember the Empire proper, so those who are saying it's just some imperial lust for freedom don't know how ignorant and stupid they sound.

Well, at the very least, as one practical stranger to another, I would urge you to vote out. Constructively there are pros and cons to both sides of the argument, just like with most things in life the decision will not be perfect. However, the EU is not equal to the total sum of its parts by any stretch of the imagination, and a trading block deal is a given - both the EU and the UK need that equally if nothing else.

[CStarFlare]

and most of the leave campaign seems to be built on emotion.

You have to be kidding! the absolute opposite is true and although both sides have had their moments the remain camp has hit new levels of obnoxious with all the rich who benefit the most from staying in funding this constant barrage of absolute scare mongering shite. The British media is behaving as abhorrently unfair and biased as the left leaning american media have with trump regardless of your personal views.

All I can say is that I chatted with a leave campaigner in the City who was gathering economists, business leaders etc. to have them make their case for leave. I asked him how much impact he expected that to have as those aren't the issues I had heard leavers talk about. He said that it was mostly an emotional issue but it was still important to present a rational case. That's a large part of what I based my statement on.

[Immryr]

have you people actually looked at the net migration statistics for the uk?

Hard to avoid them at the moment. Here's one from the Office of National Statistics:

And you think 300 thousand people across the whole of the UK is a big enough figure to be the cause of such crippling problems for our education and health care system? Come on... It's a piddling number and not the real cause of any problems. Are our public services fucked? Yes. Is immigration the cause of this? No.

[Tarma]

have you people actually looked at the net migration statistics for the uk?

Hard to avoid them at the moment. Here's one from the Office of National Statistics:

And you think 300 thousand people across the whole of the UK is a big enough figure to be the cause of such crippling problems for our education and health care system? Come on... It's a piddling number and not the real cause of any problems. Are our public services fucked? Yes. Is immigration the cause of this? No.

You've obviously not gone into a major hospital recently. And what about the unemployment figures? Nearly two million people out of work... but we're letting in 300,000 (and rising people in per year)? Where does that stack up?

Anyway, it's not just about immigration, it's about controlled immigration. It's about having a constructive and working immigration system that benefits us all. The present system does not. And as I've already stated the social system cannot be properly addressed while we remain bound by EU legislation, and the so called emergency brake Cameron "won" on EU benefits claims is a white elephant which will get binned when someone decides to got to the ECHR to moan it's not fair and they've been discriminated against.

And yes, those 300k people do make a difference if they're using what's left of our social services system and they haven't paid into it.

You need to take your head out of the sand and take a good hard look at what is happening in this country. The EU is not the sole cause, but it certainly isn't helping.

[Immryr]

Jawohl mein fuehrer!

[Tarma]

Jawohl mein fuehrer!

It's "Jawohl mein führer" actually. And what Hitler and the Third Reich has to do with immigration and the EU argument I have no idea.

It's the kind of illiterate & ignorant post you would expect from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

[MintyTheCat]

Jawohl mein fuehrer!

It's "Jawohl mein führer" actually. And what Hitler and the Third Reich has to do with immigration and the EU argument I have no idea.

It's the kind of illiterate & ignorant post you would expect from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Actually it would be:

Jawohl, mein Führer

Remember that nouns are capitalised in German and we use the comma before the object.

I see this discussion has turned sour already.

You don't have to agree with each other, and yes, valid points have been raised on both sides.

Tarma: I raised the "still an Empire" thing as quite frankly there are far too many people living in the UK with the blinders on and indeed the UK if anything resides and must work within a set of markets now and work out its place within Europe and the larger world. What I find is a reluctance - particularly amongst the, shall we say "uneducated" to accept that the UK is no longer as powerful as it once was, but it still has influence and power and it is and will still be relevant over the mid-term at the very least. When I look at the Brit education system, for example, I still see practically no emphasis placed on learning useful foreign languages when you compare it to what Holland, Germany and even France have - this desperately needs to be amended and I am sorry, but the old "still an Empire, why do we need to learn other languages/etc." still rings far too true, sadly.

Yes, the UK does need to sorts its Welfare system out, yes it does need to control its level of immigration and yes its governments need to be held accountable.
Don't turn this into a "Nazi/Hitler swipe".

And yes, Merkel is VERY unpopular over here at present due to how she has instigated some of this situation of mass immigration outside the EU's borders and I will be very impressed if she manages to get back into power (or was this her last term anyway?).

[Obiwanshinobi]

What is "constructive" controlled immigration that would benefit ALL the voters project?

[MintyTheCat]

What is "constructive" controlled immigration that would benefit ALL the voters project?

For many years they have talked of immigration caps but to be honest, not a lot was achieved. The main issue is that the UK government will never say EXACTLY how many people are within the UK - unlike Germany - so it is very hard to quantify something that is not controlled and accounted for.

What needs to be done, and should have been done a long time ago, was to effect these caps but that has not happened.
The average Brit who would not easily contemplate moving to another EU nation would see the EU policy as a one-way system that does not improve much for them as an individual but benefits those who wish to move to the UK for what ever reason. As I stated above, by not speaking other languages it puts the majority of the Brits at a firm disadvantage where as you may find that many other countries have their children learning other languages and in particular English from an early age. So I put at least some of this ill sentiment squarely on the Brit education system failing its population and a weak government failing to be effective - and a far cry from how it was in the 1980s/early 90s. The problem with the UK is that far too many of these Neo-Liberal types are in power in local government and higher up.

[system11]

And you think 300 thousand people across the whole of the UK is a big enough figure to be the cause of such crippling problems for our education and health care system? Come on... It's a piddling number and not the real cause of any problems. Are our public services fucked? Yes. Is immigration the cause of this? No.

If you read what I said I already mentioned I don't think it would make much difference, although that 300k is larger than the natural population growth is. I also said there are already far too many people, just in the general case, worldwide. I don't actually think our public services are fucked anyway, but housing is. Feel free to continue to put words in my mouth though.

[system11]

Jawohl mein fuehrer!

You might want to time out on this topic if that's how immediately childish you're going to be faced with ideas you disagree with.

I think this is one of the hardest things about the whole debate - people weaponise emotion when they disagree. It's hard to take either side seriously, anyone coming up with facts either way is just villified or ridiculed - total farce.

Also a waste of time since while the polls show a pretty close race we all know what happens on voting day, people go back to whatever they feel is safest. I'll be surprised if it's even as close as 60/40 - in the meantime loads of peoples noses will have been put out of joint and I have to deal with people calling eachother 'cucks' and Hitler on the forum.

I might not even bother voting at all because the issue seems so incredibly minor compared to anything else wrong with the world. I could be using that time to play lewd Mahjong games in MAME.

[Tarma]

What is "constructive" controlled immigration that would benefit ALL the voters project?

"All" as a collective not "all" as individuals.

No matter what you do in life you can only please some of the people some of the time and not all of the people all of the time. This is true of almost everything political. Even if there is Brexit not everyone in the Brexit camp will be happy with whatever happens next.

For me, personally, I think we should have a system similar to Australia and there should be stricter background checks on applicants. I don't think there should be a cap on the numbers coming so long as the applicant has the financial means to support themselves for however long their visa lasts and that a company offering a sponsorship or job can prove that there is not a UK resident qualified to fulfill the role(s) they have.

Benefits should only be made available to those who pay in and only after a period of time - say three years.

@Minty - I think the issue is more over our ideologies. Germany and France are largely socialist countries and have been for a very long time. There has only been sporadic out breaks of socialism in the UK, and hence why Labour historically fails to maintain long periods of governance. Usually they have been elected on an effective protest vote (see 1997) and everytime they've left office they've left a trail of chaos in their wake (1979/2010).
The UK is traditionally a conservative (small c not big C) country and this is very important in defining why I think, there is the "island mentality".