Prelude to the Apocalypse

[orange808]

If you're actually advocating a return to "normal" with China on trade, you're crazy. Stop parroting the shit you hear.

-------

Let's talk about things you "know":

You were told that more turnout is always blue, as well. Is it? Fuck no. Guess what? We already had a good general sample of the population. It turns out that people from all walks of life don't vote. Getting a bigger sample at the polls didn't shift the results. There were more votes to count and that's about it.

It wasn't voter suppression. You got your turnout. The results prove something profound: America isn't what you believed. There is no sleeping giant of silent automatic blue votes to tap. It doesn't exist. Lots of infrequent voters voted Trump. (But, why? Why?)

Accept some realities--or at least show some curiousity. Then, ask "why?"

You might also do that with the trade and immigration issues, ask "why?", and find the connections. As usual, follow the money. BryanM has the right idea.

I also posted some hard numbers on immigration in this thread. Look at the graph. You'll see the difference between what professional liberals see (in their daily lives) and what the working class sees. If you can't acknowledge that without hurling insults and meritocracy mythology, you've got your head buried in the sand.

I also grow weary of the little personal tales about your little experience in your one little generic life. Sample size and observation bias. Your experience means diddly. Show some curiousity.

[BryanM]

The source of what I said about the median income that increased with Trump is a statement from the USDOL (United States Department of Labor), but perhaps they work for him (?) I don't know.

The Department of Labor Statistics exists to generate numbers about how well everything's going. The median income number is a reflection of what the employed are making, the unemployed have no impact on that number whatsoever. The fact that it jack-knifed up literally around 20% in a single year, not in spite of the pandemic, but because of the pandemic, might be a good reason to understand it's a very limited window into the health and prosperity of the population as a whole.

You never hear these politicians crow about the very high suicide or addiction rate, or anything.

[cvaniafan]

The new president of the US still unknown after 3 days, I mean.. it's just incredible how is such a thing possible ?! Smells fishy lol

This is perfectly normal and to be expected. We're in the middle of a pandemic that's resulted in far more mail-in ballots than normal, with a president whose administration directly tried to subvert the election by tampering with how the mail system is handled, and with a president who has also whipped up mobs into protesting at ballot counting stations. And all this in the middle of a pandemic, which again is mainly Trump and his administration's fault for not properly attempting to contain it, resulting in thousands of deaths.

Perfectly normal ? It took about 24 hours to end the counting in 45 states, but it's still unfinished and stuck at 90~98% completed after 4 days in Nevada, Pennsylvania, Georgia and North Carolina. Why those states in particular ?

[CIT]

Perfectly normal ? It took about 24 hours to end the counting in 45 states, but it's still unfinished and stuck at 90~98% completed after 4 days in Nevada, Pennsylvania, Georgia and North Carolina. Why those states in particular ?

The US is not a centralized state like France. Each state makes their own laws about how votes should be counted. Some states start counting mail-in ballots as soon as they arrive (like Florida), while in other states (like Pennsylvania) they're only allowed to count once the election has ended. Also, some states allow a few days for mail-in ballots postmarked by Nov. 3rd to arrive.

[Mischief Maker]

Since I've been getting called a liberal by all the doomers on this thread for months I'm going to take the advice I wanted Biden to follow and embrace it.

So without further ado, I give you the most liberal thing ever created!

(satire)

[Vanguard]

It's crazy to me to not suspect anything shady happening with the vote counting. Remember the insane amount of fraud in the democratic primary? Now admittedly, the DNC views Bernie as far, far more of a threat than Trump, and it's surely easier to cheat their own primary than the general election, but they've shown, at the least, that they have zero qualms about cheating. The largely conservative complaints about mail-in ballots are also retarded. Whatever fraud is going on, it's not the voters themselves behind it, not to any extent that would make a difference. If the people counting the votes are cheating or if the machines are rigged (now there's an easy way to cheat!), a mail-in vote is no more vulnerable than one handed in in-person. On the other hand, getting a ballot mailed to you beforehand makes it much more convenient to vote. Having all the candidates and issues laid out with time to personally look into them makes for more educated voters.

The source of what I said about the median income that increased with Trump is a statement from the USDOL (United States Department of Labor), but perhaps they work for him (?) I don't know.

A quick look does suggest that wage growth from 2017 to 2019 has been good (by the dogshit standards of the last 47 years). Not sure how it compares against changes in unemployment, inflation, and cost of living. Even assuming it was a genuine improvement, and one for which Trump can rightfully take credit, it doesn't make up for 2020. Sure Trump didn't cause the virus but sitting on his hands until it had already got out of control wasn't a good move, to say the least. The aid sent to the common man during the lockdown was pathetic, especially when there was no hesitation whatsoever to give trillions to megacorporations. With another stimulus check or two. He'd have won, no question. Says a lot about how much the elites hate the common man that so many would rather be removed from power than throw out a few bread crumbs. I understand Pelosi and McConnell were also serious, perhaps insurmountable obstacles, but Trump could have loudly, openly pushed for more checks and he'd have come out looking like the good guy. He did not do this, because he was afraid of the possibility that doing so might actually lead to more aid for the poor.

I'll also give you that attempting to weaken the USA's dependence on China is a good thing. Trump didn't go nearly far enough with it, but I don't see anyone else trying.

[Mischief Maker]

Remember the insane amount of fraud in the democratic primary?

Dude, my fucking prize for this election was no longer having to defend establishment dems. What the hell?

No I do not remember insane amounts of fraud. The closest we came was when The Rat prematurely claimed victory in Iowa, but there was a razor margin between him and Bernie at that point anyway. We learned that caucuses were bullshit, but there was no tampering with votes.

All the establishment dems congealing into Biden like John Carpenter's The Thing was an unprecedented, desperate move, but it wasn't fraud.

Once again, all the states that are still counting have Republican legislatures who intentionally blocked the counting of early votes before election day so they could manufacture the "red mirage" and buy Trump enough time to take a legal challenge to SCOTUS and do a Bush v. Gore 2.0. Fortunately Trump put his idiot son-in-law Jared in charge of gathering their legal dream team so it's resulted in hilarity like this:

Judge Paul Diamond to the Trump campaign lawyer:

Diamond: Are your observers in the counting room?

Trump campaign: "There's a non zero number of people in the room"

Diamond: "I’m asking you as a member of the bar of this court: are people representing the Donald J Trump for president, representing the plaintiffs, in that room?"

Trump campaign lawyer: "Yes."

Diamond: "I'm sorry, then what's your problem?"

At this point we should be pointing fingers at the Associated Press and other media outlets for not calling the election for Biden already. Are they trying to milk a few more days of ratings gold out of their goose? Because the longer we spend in unnecessary election limbo, the more shit like this will happen.

[GaijinPunch]

Actually, Trump was good on an economical point of view, better than Obama.

Not really -- look at any chart. You can argue this that and the other thing, but the economy did nothing but go way up for over 6 of Obama's 8 years.

[Mischief Maker]

Because the longer we spend in unnecessary election limbo, the more shit like this will happen.

Or on a darker note, the more shit like this will happen.

[orange808]

Listen to you two go on and on about nothing. Arguing about the stock market when most Americans don't have $200 in the bank? And, you do it with a straight face. The economy isn't the stock market. Bryan tries to tell you, but you're never going to listen.

The people that put Trump in were struggling under Obama. They continued fo struggle under Trump, so they booted his ass. Neither party gives any fucks about plebs, so they desperately search for someone (anyone) that cares. There. That's the entire fucking story of two elections.

The "economy" is what it delivers.

And, yes, by all means. Embrace your centrist identity. Let's break the duopoly and you can have the entire party. Although, you may be surprised when you see how few peers you have. Pelosi is deeply unpopular.

[Mischief Maker]

*SOB* YOU TAKE THAT BACK ABOUT SLAY-KWEEN PELOSI!

She is going to vertically-clap at you so hard!!!

[orange808]

*SOB* YOU TAKE THAT BACK ABOUT SLAY-KWEEN PELOSI!

She is going to vertically-clap at you so hard!!!

Yes. Her, Joan Rivers, Phyllis Diller, and Dinah Shore!

[Blinge]

If you're actually advocating a return to "normal" with China on trade, you're crazy. Stop parroting the shit you hear.

Yeah, not what I said.

[Vanguard]

Dude, my fucking prize for this election was no longer having to defend establishment dems. What the hell?

No I do not remember insane amounts of fraud. The closest we came was when The Rat prematurely claimed victory in Iowa, but there was a razor margin between him and Bernie at that point anyway. We learned that caucuses were bullshit, but there was no tampering with votes.

All the establishment dems congealing into Biden like John Carpenter's The Thing was an unprecedented, desperate move, but it wasn't fraud.

No? How about that Buttigieg-funded voting app and its interesting habit of sending Sanders votes to Buttigieg? Take a look at this coin flip (also lmao that this mario party bullshit is actually part of the american election process) where the guy catches the coin, looks at, then flips it over and declares the delegate for Buttigieg. I hear Bernie had pretty bad luck with coin flips against Hillary in 2016 too. Biden did quite a bit better in his final vote counts than he did in the exit polls, and vice versa for Bernie. If any of that shit from the primaries or the things happening now in the general election was instead done by leftists in south america, the us government would 100% use it to justify a coup.

[cvaniafan]

Actually, Trump was good on an economical point of view, better than Obama.

Not really -- look at any chart. You can argue this that and the other thing, but the economy did nothing but go way up for over 6 of Obama's 8 years.

I do not believe in that old argument commonly used by the opposition to pretend "it's the previous president from our side who did ALL the job".

Trump managed to erase almost completely the loss from the Covid crisis, just have a look at the Wall Street results in 4 years under Trump :

Dow Jones: -5,5%
GAFAM (Apple, Amazon, Google, etc): +300% !
Banks (JP MORGAN, etc): +40%
Global market value increase in 4 years under Trump: +52% !

By comparison, because of the Covid crisis, the french stock-market value now is at -20%, whereas the US is only at -5% thanks to the good economic health.
These results explain how 5 millions of employments have been created under Trump. Also, many businesses were created because he reduced and faciltated the regulations. I mean you cannot say Obama did all that, even though Obama began to reduce slightly the unemployment caused by the financial crisis of 2007-2008, but this is past and not related to the latest years. For exemple, the DOL came to the conclusion that the income in black and hispanic families increased more with Trump than in 8 years under Obama.

So yes, Trump is s shitty character and he's the president of the GAFAM, but not only... He did the job for the economy of his country, and actually pretty well in such a context. I mean if 50% voted for him, including the minorities and the working class, you just cannot argue it's because they are 50% of morons, there are deep reasons behind that.

[BulletMagnet]

He did the job for the economy of his country

Just off the top of my head let's cite his 2017 tax cut as an example: it was already weighted heavily in favor of high earners and corporations from the get-go (of course, that's not just due to Trump as an individual, that's his party's central economic platform...well, when it bothers to actually release one), but moreover the provisions that benefit anyone else will expire within a couple of years, while the upper-end ones stick around; by the time it all shakes out the top 1% of earners will be getting over 80% of the cuts.

Of course, this ballooned the deficit as well, just as Bush's and Reagan's upper-end cuts did, but Trump and the GOP insisted, in identical fashion, that this would finally be the time that the rich would use their windfall to hire and expand instead of simply enriching their stock portfolios - somehow the past remains present (and the once-rabid deficit hawks have seemingly stapled their foaming mouths shut). Naturally, they've openly promised more of the exact same thing if they win a second term.

Oh, and the proposed payroll tax cut that never materialized was a blatant case of robbing Peter to pay Paul anyway, with the added bonus of undermining the already-flimsy social safety net they've been trying to kill for decades.

So sure, Trump certainly delivered economically, at least if you're part of the donor class. Or, just by sheer coincidence, a real estate developer.

[BryanM]

Another reason they did so poorly: negative campaigning. Transparently negative campaigning has a backlash effect - it's two personalities just yelling at each other from a neutral standpoint, and someone being an asshole to your imaginary friend if you happen to like one of the personalities. The people who already hate Trump are already aware of their hatred, spending a billion dollars to say "Trump is too mean and rude" is like spitting into an ocean or "puking on a pile of shit" as the kids say it.

When you think of Obama, he presented an aspirational figure of a better future. Biden, you've got a woman molester who wants to go back to a not-so-great past. It's fucking no wonder democrats do a million times better when they don't have a leader dragging down their image. They always pick the worst sells guy possible when allowed to their own devices.

More losses in state houses, more losses in congress, more permanent damage to the democrat brand, and the Rahm Emanuels of the world are crowing like this was the greatest victory in history. (And it is - for them.) You should hold such people in contempt and spit on them.

Since I've been getting called a liberal by all the doomers on this thread for months I'm going to take the advice I wanted Biden to follow and embrace it.

It's not doomer mode! Doomer mode is "Do you really want to see and be a part of so much suffering? End it now!" While "Don't kill yourself - let's outlive Pelosi and McConnell at the very least!" is aspirational. Barackian, even. Best case scenario in this, the third worst of all possible worlds.

It's just science man. Global warming. Resource depletion. Anthropic principle.

Anyway, here's the most liberal thing I saw. It made me want to throw up, even if it's a parody of libbrain. Like the opposite of MittRomneyTerminator2LavaBath.gif.

where the guy catches the coin, looks at, then flips it over and declares the delegate for Buttigieg

urgh, fuck me I had forgotten all about that. A grown man that can't fucking flip a coin. It's the perfect description of Peter.

So much cringe.

[kitten]

"most liberal thing i've seen" greatest hits: https://twitter.com/runolgarun/status/1322417345466228736

[BryanM]

That "suicide prevention act" thing in response to a man killing himself for losing his home is one of the most heartless things... and some people wonder why fascism sounds so tolerable an alternative.

And they're going to return to the grand bargain. Entertain the idea of the Democrats being the ones to cut social security and medicare again. Wonderful.

[cvaniafan]

He did the job for the economy of his country

Just off the top of my head let's cite his 2017 tax cut as an example: it was already weighted heavily in favor of high earners and corporations from the get-go (of course, that's not just due to Trump as an individual, that's his party's central economic platform...well, when it bothers to actually release one), but moreover the provisions that benefit anyone else will expire within a couple of years, while the upper-end ones stick around; by the time it all shakes out the top 1% of earners will be getting over 80% of the cuts.

Of course, this ballooned the deficit as well, just as Bush's and Reagan's upper-end cuts did, but Trump and the GOP insisted, in identical fashion, that this would finally be the time that the rich would use their windfall to hire and expand instead of simply enriching their stock portfolios - somehow the past remains present (and the once-rabid deficit hawks have seemingly stapled their foaming mouths shut). Naturally, they've openly promised more of the exact same thing if they win a second term.

Oh, and the proposed payroll tax cut that never materialized was a blatant case of robbing Peter to pay Paul anyway, with the added bonus of undermining the already-flimsy social safety net they've been trying to kill for decades.

So sure, Trump certainly delivered economically, at least if you're part of the donor class. Or, just by sheer coincidence, a real estate developer.

Interesting analysis, and I am not saying everything was great under Trump, definitely NOT, but just having a look at the factual results. He was more brave and efficient about China than Obama, he maintained a low dollar exchange rate which helped exportations, made the US to become first world producer of shale gas (I am not saying it's good for environment), and he made 5 millions of employments possible between 2016 and 2019, check the official reports:

Unemployment rate :

- 2013 (Obama): 6,6%

- January 2017 (arrival of Trump): 4,7%

- February 2020 (Trump, just before the Covid crisis): 3,5%

- October 2020 (during Covid crisis): 3,9% despite the crisis, which remains quite good in this context.

I think all of that explains the 49% of american people who voted Trump, and it shows how the country is divided about how american people want their country to be directed. I think it's interesting to try to understand how and why, instead of just listening to the mainstream medias who only say Trump is a jerk and no need to know more.

[BulletMagnet]

I think it's interesting to try to understand how and why, instead of just listening to the mainstream medias who only say Trump is a jerk and no need to know more.

I'm sure that the economic numbers are a factor among his base, though as I said (and again, this isn't just him, it's his party's MO for the past half-century or more) the vast majority of the windfall during his term has not only gone to the very wealthy, but has come at the direct expense of social programs that the less wealthy depend on (one very notable example is the pandemic response team he dismantled soon after taking office; you also referred to environmental deregulation and its consequences in your own post). As such, whenever a (non-rich) Trump voter cites the economy as a reason for his support, I'm tempted to guess that it stems from reports he's seen of various wide-ranging economic indicators going up rather than any tangible effect he's felt on his own situation; for whatever it's worth I offered similar criticism during the Obama administration's regular reports on job growth, since there's little indication (then or now) of how many of those jobs pay anything close to a living wage (i.e. if McDonald's and Wal-Mart are doing most of the hiring folks are still going to be taking out payday loans to make rent).

Another thing I've said repeatedly before now, in response to the latter part of your post, is that every last shred evidence I've observed suggests that Trump's base supports him not in spite of the fact that he's a jerk, but because he's a jerk: long before he got into politics he was infamous as a boor, a liar and a cheat, but all it took was his incredulous "I'm working for you now!" line to take over a huge chunk of both conservative and "centrist" voters. Hence how, no matter how many scandals are unearthed, even the "values voters" refuse to leave him; they knew exactly what they were getting from the outset, and as long as Those People are more upset with him than they are they have exactly zero reason to abandon ship.

For whatever it's worth, I'm much more confident in chalking up the latter as the dominant factor in Trump's enduring popularity even in the face of the pandemic.

[BryanM]

Unemployment rate :

- 2013 (Obama): 6,6%
- January 2017 (arrival of Trump): 4,7%
- February 2020 (Trump, just before the Covid crisis): 3,5%
- October 2020 (during Covid crisis): 3,9%

Only line cultists use the FBOLS propaganda numbers. Normal people use the participation rate.

You don't have to fritter or fret over who is better for the line, the red line cultist or the blue line cultist. Our society exists solely to make the line go up, and we'll sacrifice the lives of everyone on the planet to make sure that it does.

The line is going to go up. The same people are still in power no matter what figurehead sits on TV. Once everyone has given up looking for a job, your unemployment number will be 0%. Because that's how that metric works. Which you should already know if you go around using it all the time.

[FinalBaton]

I like seeing Cvaniafan's posts here. He's attempting to comprehend why half of the voters chose Trump.

As for the ''voted to own the lib'' argument, I don't really buy it as a factor since the phenomenom exists in the other camp too. (I mean, we've had examples in this very thread).

The reality is : half of american voters in a good turnout, chose Donald Trump likely for his actions.

As for the Squad making gains: it'll be interesting to see if they made significant ones. I'll go check MM's link again, and let's observe how they do in next few years. But my fear is that with age, they will become establishment dems.

Also this election proved that identity politics doesn't speak to people right now. wil that tendency be bigger next time? let's wait and see

[cvaniafan]

Unemployment rate :

- 2013 (Obama): 6,6%
- January 2017 (arrival of Trump): 4,7%
- February 2020 (Trump, just before the Covid crisis): 3,5%
- October 2020 (during Covid crisis): 3,9%

Only line cultists use the FBOLS propaganda numbers. Normal people use the participation rate.

You don't have to fritter or fret over who is better for the line, the red line cultist or the blue line cultist. Our society exists solely to make the line go up, and we'll sacrifice the lives of everyone on the planet to make sure that it does.

The line is going to go up. The same people are still in power no matter what figurehead sits on TV. Once everyone has given up looking for a job, your unemployment number will be 0%. Because that's how that metric works. Which you should already know if you go around using it all the time.

Do not feel offended by what I wrote, there's nothing personal and I am not into propaganda. I only took in consideration some factual points, there's no ideology here, these reports I have mentioned come from USDOL and french medias who are against Trump just like your medias. Now you may deny or reject all these facts, no problem with that, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong, I don't mind.

[Blinge]

identity politics

I still feel like this is a tiny group that shouts very loud.

[BulletMagnet]

As for the ''voted to own the lib'' argument, I don't really buy it as a factor since the phenomenom exists in the other camp too. (I mean, we've had examples in this very thread).

Where?

[FinalBaton]

Where?

Either way, I'm glad that (...) have given rise to stuff like this:

[Blinge]

can't vote to caricature someone that appeared after the voting took place, Baton.

sigh. why am i bothering to reply.

The man leaving the white house mounted a frontal assault on the fabric of reality itself for four straight years.
My entire conservative family see him as nothing more than an embarrassment and I'll add that in recent days he's revealed himself to be a direct threat to democracy.

I thought you fucks liked freedom. I suppose that includes freedom from having to vote.

[FinalBaton]

the point made here is : it's a non-factor on both sides.

half of voters in a good turnout supported Donald J. Trump. everyone needs to accept that and get their head out of the sand.
and I'm not particularly happy about it, that's the part you seem to get wrong. I'm saying : we're doomed. even if Biden squeaks in as prez, Trump still ''wins'' as Kitten said.

[Vanguard]

Trump managed to erase almost completely the loss from the Covid crisis, just have a look at the Wall Street results in 4 years under Trump :

Dow Jones: -5,5%
GAFAM (Apple, Amazon, Google, etc): +300% !
Banks (JP MORGAN, etc): +40%
Global market value increase in 4 years under Trump: +52% !

Bro, Trump's solution to the stock market's woes was literally just trillions of dollars in government handouts. That shit doesn't help the common man. It just means that those businesses are even more impossible to compete with and they have an even stronger bargaining position against workers and consumers.

I still feel like this is a tiny group that shouts very loud.

Yup. But they're a tremendously useful distraction from real problems so they always get plenty of attention.