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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:36 pm 


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Alright, with the rejuvenating power of sleep I can see it's missing a vowel and says parody in the corner. I now know what reality is again.

The 9th wall remains unbroken.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:32 pm 


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Can you guys imagine what the RNC is gonna be like? Can you even imagine Jeb giving a speech in support of Trump and it sounding remotely believable? I don't think there's ever been a man who hates another man as much as Jeb does Trump.

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Everyone talks about Trump running third party. But no one ever considers Jeb running third party.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:12 am 


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Delicious irony. And this site, which plays off that other article, makes a good point: People like Trump because they think he's going to dynamite the GOP. They don't want to see an endorsement from Bush. No doubt the GOP elite will find some way to engineer a way to hold onto the reigns but it will be ugly. Of course, the flip side is that you might say all the attention and interest is a good problem to have - the racism and hatred is a huge pot of flies with some ointment slathered on, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:27 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
No doubt the GOP elite will find some way to engineer a way to hold onto the reigns but it will be ugly.


You've become far too cynical my good chum. They have no moves and they're all Trump's bitch. Well, they do have one move: Straight up murdering the guy. But it might be a little too obvious and unpopular with his supporters, ne?

What's so funny to me are the internet libertarians and whatnot (~10 to 14% of the republican party) always keep going on about how the GOP needs to drop the social/racist issues and it'll be a slam dunk. And I always argue that they're completely wrong - short of straight up telling them their model of reality is so poor they must have a defective brain. Do these randian supermen even understand people at all?

So the GOP is going to nominate a guy who's talking about raising tax on some rich people. No one can tell me that isn't some progress for humanity, ne?


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:21 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
No doubt the GOP elite will find some way to engineer a way to hold onto the reigns but it will be ugly.


You've become far too cynical my good chum. They have no moves and they're all Trump's bitch. Well, they do have one move: Straight up murdering the guy. But it might be a little too obvious and unpopular with his supporters, ne?


Actually I think they already made their attempt with the bleeding vagina scandal. Every other Republican at the debate talking about how much they want to burn down planned parenthood and make abortions punishable by honor rape, but when Trump implied that a Fox anchorwoman might menstruate, NOW that's going too far!
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:37 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
So the GOP is going to nominate a guy who's talking about raising tax on some rich people. No one can tell me that isn't some progress for humanity, ne?

I believe the phrase he's used on that front is that he wants to tax businesses which are "bad for America", which, apart from the fact that his personal list of "bad for America" businesses probably has little to nothing in common with most people's, leaves him (and those who can get on his good side) a LOT of wiggle room to weasel out of the designation.

What I WOULD like to see (but never will) is someone who would use this opportunity to ask him, and the rest of his party: "Your plan to tax certain businesses you feel are bad for America is presumably meant to encourage these businesses to change their behavior; do you thus acknowledge that deliberate government action has a role to play in market operations, and that simply stepping aside and letting the chips fall where they may is not always the responsible option?"
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:39 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
Do these randian supermen even understand people at all?

Dunno if that answers your question but I read somewhere Delaware is the state with the most sex offenders (or 2nd place don't remember).
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:54 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
No doubt the GOP elite will find some way to engineer a way to hold onto the reigns but it will be ugly.


You've become far too cynical my good chum.

Well, I was looking at some article on Crooks and Liars recently about the decades-long conservative battle to alter the Supreme Court. So, put another way, I think the same old powers that be will probably be able to hold onto some degree of power, or at least crawl back, even in the face of a Trump revolution. I guess I'm just not thinking enough about the immediate consequences for the power balance in the party, but in many respects this does just seem like Tea Party '15, just another longer-term campaign fighting for the ultimate prize.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:17 pm 


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"I just felt like running for President" - Forrest Trump
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:11 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
So, put another way, I think the same old powers that be will probably be able to hold onto some degree of power, or at least crawl back, even in the face of a Trump revolution. I guess I'm just not thinking enough about the immediate consequences for the power balance in the party, but in many respects this does just seem like Tea Party '15, just another longer-term campaign fighting for the ultimate prize.


Well of course they're going to continue to own the media and congress. Money power will always defeat the will of the people, when the people are not paying attention.

Trump has just laid bare what the GOP really cares about. It doesn't particularly care about anything, besides their team winning and making sure white people don't slide down in stature to be equal with everyone else. White Protestant Evangelical GOP voters don't give a shit about religion - it's just a shell identity they use to clothe themselves with, completely interchangeable with any other narrative. How else could they favor a pro-choice guy who isn't interested in religion?

And his only current competitor? Ben Carson. The only other guy in that race that believes in anything. Doing this amazing strategy of... wait for it... COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATISM. Which is identical to normal conservatism, except you don't call people rapers when you throw them out of the country or into jail. Well, not loudly anyway. Offering an alternative to a blowhard if that isn't your style.

Mentioned it before, but this SA thread by a crazy person who grew up inside the womb of crazy really gives a better insight on the heart of the GOP than any article some know-nothing pundit could ever poop out.

What this means... well, it doesn't mean too much. I mean, who didn't already know that was what the GOP's stood for since the shift began under Nixon? Whose mind is this gonna change? All it means is that people know they can win GOP primaries by dropping the dog whistles and preformatted poll-approved talking points and just saying what their base believes.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:53 am 


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Speaking of media under control, it amazes me that you'd never even know who Bernie Sanders was if you just watched American news coverage.
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:09 am 


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cj iwakura wrote:
Speaking of media under control, it amazes me that you'd never even know who Bernie Sanders was if you just watched American news coverage.

Unless a blip in his poll numbers is being used to bludgeon Hillary over the head, anyway.

In addition to the fact that, of course, while liberals have been sitting with their thumbs up their asses for 40-plus years they've allowed the word "Socialist" to be tarred and feathered without response so many times that it's pretty much a black hole at this point...despite the fact that "Socialist" at this point in our history, as others have pointed out, basically means "slightly to the right of Eisenhower".
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:15 am 


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Right. PPP early polls had him as unfavorable among African Americans, which of course rebounded when they actually learned something about the guy. I can't blame them when the only headlines he was getting at the time was "Black Lives Matters shuts down Bernie Sanders speech". Nobody reads articles, or cares enough to research stuff they don't care about.

I like to crow about the power of the internet and how the post-Obama world has led us into a crazy new era of freedom... but at the end of the day TV still matters almost entirely. An entire medium where the consumers are the product.

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bludgeon Hillary over the head


Hello Mr.Sanders would you like to kill your chances of winning by trashing Clinton? I'll ask you eight times. Please stop talking about inequality increasing to levels worse than the great depression nobody cares about that Mr.Sanders it makes everyone awkward.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:48 am 


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I actually don't mind the idea of President Trump. This article touches upon some of the lesser reasons, but what really does it for me is that he's proven he can win battles on an unprecedented scale.

If I traveled back in time to five years ago and told you that the 2016 GOP frontrunner took on Fox News and won, would you have believed me? Of course not, but look where we are today.

If it comes down to Sanders vs. Trump, I'm fine with either candidate. Sanders is a safer choice to be sure, but Trump would be the ultimate middle finger to... pretty much everyone. I don't think he'd be re-elected (I have my doubts that he'd even finish one term), but it would send a strong message to those who manipulate public opinion and media narrative that there's enough people out there who are on to their antics (and have used their own tactics against them).

And just imagine the kind of environment the Trump Administration's Situation Room would be. He's already talking about ISIS as if they're posing a significant threat to our national security. He may just start the War on Oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:08 pm 


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quash wrote:
If I traveled back in time to five years ago and told you that the 2016 GOP frontrunner took on Fox News and won, would you have believed me? Of course not, but look where we are today.

Despite the occasional slap fights that have popped up, Fox (and the rest of the right-wing media) has absolutely fawned over Trump in most of its coverage since he started skulking around the upcoming election, and will continue to do so. If anyone in the press ever actually did their jobs and demanded hard numbers and fact-based proposals instead of camera-friendly "attitude" (just the other day there was an article tucked into the NYT's business section that takes a huge dump on his anti-immigrant narrative...which, of course, absolutely nobody has followed up on), neither he nor the Republican party would exist as we know them.

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...but it would send a strong message to those who manipulate public opinion and media narrative that there's enough people out there who are on to their antics (and have used their own tactics against them).

I would put it far less kindly: the tactics that have allowed reprehensible people to get away with causing so much harm to such a huge swath of the population has been co-opted by even more reprehensible people and are likely to have even more disastrous results.

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He may just start the War on Oil.

I recall him stating that one of his biggest criticisms of how the war in Iraq was handled is that we didn't steal nearly enough of their oil (perhaps he was on board with Bush's "we'll get so much oil that the war will pay for itself" fantasy, which by itself should disqualify anyone from any serious consideration for public office).

Long story short: the people we should be supporting are the precious few who say "I refuse to play this game", not the ones who say "I can play it better than you."

EDIT: And he's apparently going to pledge not to run as an independent, so you can forget that angle.
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:23 pm 


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quash wrote:
I actually don't mind the idea of President Trump.

What a frightening thing to say. Please care more.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:44 am 


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Rob wrote:
What a frightening thing to say. Please care more.


Really how is it any worse than any of the establishment Republicans winning? Besides the grand wizard not censuring himself quite as much bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:07 am 


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I'm not prepared to think about any Republican winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:15 am 



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BryanM wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
No doubt the GOP elite will find some way to engineer a way to hold onto the reigns but it will be ugly.


You've become far too cynical my good chum. They have no moves and they're all Trump's bitch. Well, they do have one move: Straight up murdering the guy. But it might be a little too obvious and unpopular with his supporters, ne?

Actually, the Republican Party isn't beholden to its primaries. The party heads can elect whomever they want. From Wikipedia: "Each party's bylaws also specify which current and former elected officeholders and party leaders qualify as unpledged delegates. Because of possible deaths, resignations, or the results of intervening or special elections, the final number of these superdelegates may not be known until the week of the convention." Unless I'm mistaken, the GOP has party leaders that outnumber delegates and are the deciding factor.

Also, Nate Silver predicts a bust.

It's unfortunate, too. Trump leads the Republicans, but does not lead against Clinton. Trump though is actually better than most of the GOP candidates, since he's actually far to the left of e.g. Huckabee or Santorum. This is an ego thing for him, and he'd be a great demagogue who would get things done, and his positions on tariffs and tax hikes for hedge fund managers, though his overall tax policy is too close to Republicans for it to be any good.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:01 am 


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The republican party is still way more democratic than the democratic party : (

Superdelegates and only 4 debates before primaries start. And 0 before party registration in New York.

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Also, Nate Silver predicts a bust.


Nate is held in a little too much esteem for being slightly more accurate than Real Clear Politics' poll averaging back in 2012. It doesn't really take a wizard to press the No Tossups button. And it's hardly cutting age space science to do weighted averaging based on the past accuracy of a polling outfit.

(Though I guess it seems that way to *some* people. The Romney camp's incompetence continues to surprise and amaze me even to this day. Just last week I discovered they spent the final weeks of the election running up the score in southern states, which, of course, means nothing in the electoral college.)

Trump is not the weekly gimmick pokemon Herman Cain and friends were. Romney was winning that election from the start, and slapped down challengers. Trump is now in the same position ROMNEY was: The sustained leader. His twitter account alone keeps him in the mind and hearts of the voters better than the rest of the field combined.

Guessing what will happen in the next half a year is a bit like casting stones, but the man has shown he isn't a flash in the pan. Today the data says Ben Carson is the only candidate that can beat him in a head to head. I give Trump roughly a 20 to 60% chance if he does not bail. That's internet anon BryanM's, analysis.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:44 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Despite the occasional slap fights that have popped up, Fox (and the rest of the right-wing media) has absolutely fawned over Trump in most of its coverage since he started skulking around the upcoming election, and will continue to do so.


Fox begrudgingly gives him any kind of positive coverage. The top brass of the GOP can't stand Trump and they've made that very clear in how they cover him. It's no secret that they would much rather give positive attention to Bush, Rubio, etc. yet they're forced to cover Trump because he's, strangely enough, their most electable candidate.

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I recall him stating that one of his biggest criticisms of how the war in Iraq was handled is that we didn't steal nearly enough of their oil (perhaps he was on board with Bush's "we'll get so much oil that the war will pay for itself" fantasy, which by itself should disqualify anyone from any serious consideration for public office).


He was against Iraq, for the record. That's more than you can say of most Democrats. Save your rationalizations as to why they voted for the war for someone who cares.

His plan for ISIS is to attack their oil fields, which would cut off their primary source of funding. It's a smart thing to do, but it's misplaced given that they don't currently pose a significant threat to the US. It'd be better to wait until they're a more formidable threat to do such a thing rather than doing so right now, since they would find other sources of funding (as they're currently doing, anyways). Odierno said that and more before he stepped down.

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Long story short: the people we should be supporting are the precious few who say "I refuse to play this game", not the ones who say "I can play it better than you."


Nobody running for office is capable of saying the former; the act of running for office itself is playing "the game". Trump is at least doing so on his own terms, defying his own party in the process.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:46 am 


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Rob wrote:
I'm not prepared to think about any Republican winning.


You must've been horrified when Obama took office.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:25 pm 


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Last edited by Rob on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:46 pm 


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quash wrote:
Fox begrudgingly gives him any kind of positive coverage. The top brass of the GOP can't stand Trump and they've made that very clear in how they cover him.

Spare me, the GOP leadership (media leadership very much included) is directly responsible for Trump being where he is, they started fawning over him the second he poked his head out of his (foreign labor-staffed) casino and vigorously defended nearly every inexcusable thing he said (anyone who has a problem with him is obsessed with political correctness and wants to silence the voice of truth!), until he started hitting a couple of targets he wasn't supposed to hit. Even now, he has to step WAY out of bounds to earn the mildest wag of a finger from the "mainstream" right.

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It's no secret that they would much rather give positive attention to Bush, Rubio, etc. yet they're forced to cover Trump because he's, strangely enough, their most electable candidate.

If they (or anyone else) really wanted to sink Trump in favor of someone else, they'd point out what a joke most of his proposals are, which frankly is not at all difficult to do (they've managed to make a nothing-burger like Benghazi last this long, there's no way in hell they couldn't make this one stick); the thing is, pretty much every candidate in the field is in support of nearly all the same head-up-ass plutocratic policies that he is, and moreover would open themselves up to the same "pipe down, you pussies" tongue-lashing that liberals have endured just for criticizing his campaigning style. The GOP could have Trump out of the race by tomorrow if they really wanted to, but anything and everything they might say against him simply hits far too close to home.

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Nobody running for office is capable of saying the former; the act of running for office itself is playing "the game".

If nothing else I'd say that Sanders is a good deal closer to that ideal than Trump is (and no, just because you're not insulting as many people doesn't mean you're worse at it), and moreover that his proposed actions would be of much greater benefit to both the country and the world (which, frankly, should be the only thing we're even talking about...and if it were, Trump and his ilk would be a total nonfactor).
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:27 pm 


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Rob wrote:
quash wrote:
I actually don't mind the idea of President Trump.

What a frightening thing to say. Please care more.

If you think a President can cause damage by himself, you don't understand how the US government works. Which is crazy given that we just spent 12-ish years watching a demonstration of how useless Presidents are.

Trump A) is hilarious and B) knows what to say, which is sufficient reason to vote for him already. I'm not gonna bother defending him because this is the election where the shoe-in candidate is The Other White Clinton, which means for the foreseeable future all politically inclined Americans have become entirely incapable of rational thought. It's like abortion, except a hundred times more hilarious, because now people are being unreasonable about entire political platforms.

Rob wrote:
By being even more openly racist, sexist, xenophobic and willfully ignorant than the average Republican.

"Racism and willful ignorance are bad, that's why I use baseless sweeping generalizations to talk about people I don't like." No, John. You are the bigots.

BulletMagnet wrote:
Spare me, the GOP leadership (media leadership very much included) is directly responsible for Trump being where he is

You claim they could get him out of the race in a heartbeat if they wanted to, and then you go on to explain exactly how he's made it impossible for them to do that, and you don't seem to be aware of the self-contradiction. Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are astonishingly bad people, but neither of them got where they are by being stupid.
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:54 pm 


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Volteccer_Jack wrote:
If you think a President can cause damage by himself, you don't understand how the US government works. Which is crazy given that we just spent 12-ish years watching a demonstration of how useless Presidents are.

Do you honestly believe that the country would look the same today if President McCain and/or President Romney had been in charge this whole time? The Affordable Care Act? The Iran deal? Hell, the response to the recession? Gimme a break, man.

Quote:
You claim they could get him out of the race in a heartbeat if they wanted to, and then you go on to explain exactly how he's made it impossible for them to do that, and you don't seem to be aware of the self-contradiction.

You misunderstand; the GOP absolutely could shame him out of the race if they called him out for what he is, namely someone with no clue how to govern and no interest in learning how. The problem is, Trump's ludicrous stances on nearly every subject align him very closely with the so-called "mainstream" Republican leadership, so in condemning him they'd effectively be condemning every candidate they have (and are likely to have for the foreseeable future). This wasn't some calculated move on Trump's part, it's the inevitable result of the GOP's decades-long shift farther and farther to the right, and its simultaneous near-total embrace of the fringe: eventually nobody's going to be off-kilter enough to say "no" to.

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Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are astonishingly bad people, but neither of them got where they are by being stupid.

Nobody's saying they did, but it's also true that neither of them got where they are by themselves, though the former in particular likes to act as if he did.
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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:42 pm 


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Volteccer_Jack wrote:
If you think a President can cause damage by himself, you don't understand how the US government works.


Veto, Supreme court nominations, executive actions, etc... Just ask the Republican congress how much trouble Obama causes them.

Volteccer_Jack wrote:
Which is crazy given that we just spent 12-ish years watching a demonstration of how useless Presidents are.


The White house was instrumental in brokering the ACA between the interests of the health insurance industries, hospital systems, physician bodies, and the realities of congress. It is the greatest achievement for the Democratic party you will probably ever witness in your lifetime. If that sounds ridiculous to you it's probably because what they want and what you want (a funny president?) are completely different things.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:18 pm 


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Quote:
If you think a President can cause damage by himself, you don't understand how the US government works.


Actually a president has an incredible amount of power to do harm, and incredibly little to help anyone. Filling the head of FEMA with an incompetent tit for tat stooge, judge appointments, etc.

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antron wrote:
what they want and what you want (a funny president?) are completely different things.


It's usually full communism or anarchy now.

Any disappointment one has had for Obama can be rectified by spending 24/7 in a libertarian echo chamber. Hearing carbon clones of Rand Paul neverendingly, and you can be impressed at our president even managing to get a shit out sideways.

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You claim they could get him out of the race in a heartbeat if they wanted to, and then you go on to explain exactly how he's made it impossible for them to do that


Yeah it's adorable to see them try to attack him for being "liberal" : D

Republicans love the Democrat's platform. They just hate democrats. And several Other kinds of people.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:47 pm 


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quash wrote:
He was against Iraq, for the record. That's more than you can say of most Democrats.

You win the "wat" of the thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Reso ... resolution
(Go Midwest/Northwest/Exotic Places Senators!)

It was a Republican administration (namely, Wolfos and Cheney) that prepackaged and sold that deal. Congressional Dems were also depending on getting the full story from the intelligence community, who it's pretty clear didn't do a good job.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:15 pm 


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Volteccer_Jack wrote:
B) knows what to say, which is sufficient reason to vote for him already.

Knows exactly what kinds of racist things to say to appeal to racists who don't think that they're racist (etc.)? OK. It's good that you aren't going to bother defending him because there is nothing to defend. There's only the obvious reality of him being a brand name, anti-intellectual hothead, which naturally appeals to a large number of Americans.

Quote:
baseless

No.

Quote:
where the shoe-in candidate is The Other White Clinton,

No.


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