Prelude to the Apocalypse

[BIL]

I'm ok with dehumanizing child rapists. I don't care if they're conservative or liberal. I don't think there's any slippery slope to that. Rape a child = death sentence. Pretty easy to just stop there. Is it bloodlust to believe some crimes are so heinous that the criminal forfeits their right to life? I don't think so. Sounds like you disagree.

Like I said before in this thread, the dirty shit pulled by the prosecution in a publicly televised case really makes me question how just prior death sentence convictions were. Now imagine what the prosecution can do behind closed doors. One wrongful death sentence is one too many. For child rapists, jail for life is already all they deserve. I don't see the logic or benefit in running the risk of wrongly sentencing a person to death purely for us to feel 10 seconds of fleeting catharsis when we read a child rapist's death notice in the news. Nobody will weep for a child molester's death, but there isn't much of a difference between someone being permabanned from society vs. permabanned from life. At least with the former there's still the room to justly recover a person's life from an unjust clerical error.

I simply mention that, in addition to all of this, Kyle's attackers were scum. Criminals with records of serious violent offenses. One of the attackers was convicted multiple times for child rape. And that is the one who, at the very least, should have still been in prison. It's a failure of our justice system that someone could be convicted of such extreme crimes and yet walk around free.

It seems we are in agreement that the current US justice system needs a patch or two.

I've long held the same opinion on the death penalty, that is, it's too permanent. I wouldn't go for, but could understand exceptions for a sky-high proof threshold, ie video recording. But the way technology is going, I don't know how much longer even that will remain a safe standard.

In any case, I often think of criminals like Ian Brady, infamous in the UK for his torture, rape and murder of several children along with Myra Hindley ("The Moors Murderers"). Brady spent the last couple decades of his life begging to be allowed to die, before finally expiring of natural causes recently. I'm agnostic, but that sounds like a better sentence than hanging him in the 1960s.

More recently there was Ariel Castro, who imprisoned three women in his home and habitually raped them. Convicted, necked himself in his cell. I'd rather he was staring at a wall 23hrs a day right now.

TLDR: Death isn't the worst thing in the world. Hell might be worse than anything in this world, but why gamble on its existence?

[Rob]

I never got the sense the shootings were "a racial crime" from the "news media" I read and listened to. I know Fox news, Hannity, Sexton etc all said it was framed as a racial crime, but they say a lot of things that aren't based in reality, it's hard for their followers and those in that echo chamber to know the difference.

The racialization of the trial is all over the place.

White Men on Trial
Kyle Rittenhouse trial was designed to protect white conservatives who kill
The Rittenhouse trial is all about race
etc.

The media and other opinion makers cherry-picked white evildoer stories all of 2020 and were largely responsible for the riots and climate of lawlessness to begin with. The results of their creation have naturally been used to continue the same story.

I'd rather he was staring at a wall 23hrs a day right now.

But don't you think it's just a waste of resources to keep a man boxed and fed for life when there is no intention or good reason to ever let them out?

[BIL]

Naw, that's the punishment.

There's a dude locked up right now who's only ever killed chomos, albeit in rather horrifying fashion, who similarly wants to be given leave to cark himself. Some hard shit. The Great Adventures of Brain Eater and Cheeseman

(good to see you around again BTW! wish it was in happier surroundings )

[emphatic]

I'd rather he was staring at a wall 23hrs a day right now.

But don't you think it's just a waste of resources to keep a man boxed and fed for life when there is no intention or good reason to ever let them out?

IIRC, excecutions are a costly affair - mainly to keep the number of excecutions down. It's jobs for prison personnel on the line too.

[BIL]

The Dancin' Grannies of Milwaukee have been avenged. Kind of. They still all dead and ran over, and shit.

Spoiler

I think social media is poisoning people. "LMAO JUST LIEK D&D AND ROCK MUSIC AND VIDYA MIRITE? LOOOL *EAT PUSSY SIGN*" Yeah, no, I get that. But it's pretty frickin hardcore when random white 40something moms are declaring small children fair game for brutal murder, because their side lost that weekend's lawball game. That's the kind of thing I would say! Well no not really. I'm a nice pussy WRT women/children. Everyone else is fair game though! "How you gonna explain fuckin' a man?" Revenge! Also, it's not gay if you're the one pounding the other dude's ass, subhanallah.

[Vanguard]

I don't know who any of those people are. Well no, I recognise Sean (?) Hannity, because I read this thread. Couldn't pick him out of a lineup though. I didn't get a sense of race-baiting from US media until the last month or so, when it seems to have ramped up. Joy Reid's really putting in the work, to name one.

Literally every political issue in this country gets racialized no matter how little sense it makes.

But don't you think it's just a waste of resources to keep a man boxed and fed for life when there is no intention or good reason to ever let them out?

If we're certain there will never be a good reason to let them out in the future then sure. But given that the courts have shown themselves to be somewhere between fallible and a complete farce, it's best to err on the side of caution. And if we're really worried about wastefulness, there are plenty of better ways to go about that than performing more executions. Legalizing marijuana would probably save more while also preventing future unjust imprisonments. We could reduce the cost of performing executions by replacing the often expensive and cruel drugs used for lethal injections with the inexpensive and painless drugs commonly used to euthanize animals.

Probably the biggest area where we could cut waste is the war budget. We could divide it in half, saving about a third of a trillion a year and still maintain by far the highest military spending in the world. Could probably cut two thirds without losing any important military functions. Approaching the problem from the other direction, we could make billionaires and megacorporations start paying taxes.

[Koa Zo]

I never got the sense the shootings were "a racial crime" from the "news media" I read and listened to. I know Fox news, Hannity, Sexton etc all said it was framed as a racial crime, but they say a lot of things that aren't based in reality, it's hard for their followers and those in that echo chamber to know the difference.

The racialization of the trial is all over the place.

White Men on Trial
Kyle Rittenhouse trial was designed to protect white conservatives who kill
The Rittenhouse trial is all about race
etc.

The opinion pieces and blog posts I'm not much interested in. That's not where I get my news nor where I shape my opinions.
I skimmed the Politico piece and it seem to be recapping the racial elements surrounding the police killing protests and the racial nature of our judicial industry. Is there a particular point from that article that you find disagreeable?

I don't know who any of those people are. Well no, I recognise Sean (?) Hannity, because I read this thread. Couldn't pick him out of a lineup though. I didn't get a sense of race-baiting from US media until the last month or so, when it seems to have ramped up. Joy Reid's really putting in the work, to name one.

Buck Sexton is a former CIA Intelligence Officer and the heir to Rush Limbaugh's audience.
I first came to be aware of Buck Sexton browsing AM radio late at night, hearing him implore his listeners to "stop the invasion" over our southern border. The rhetoric clearly was alluding to killing the "invaders". What was at stake was the imminent destruction of our way of life, destruction of our country!, Sexton implored his listeners specifically to do what is necessary to stop the invasion. I specifically remember him then saying "I can't tell you what to do. But you know what you need to do." I was shocked that this was being broadcast as it was clear to me; from the totality of his segment, he had just egged his listeners on to go and kill Mexicans. It also immediately struck me how manipulative and cowardly the guy was - stoking blood thirst in his listeners but then back peddling and putting the onus on them to follow through.
Being that he was broadcast in my area in the late night fringe hours, I wondered what kind of reach and audience he might have. 2 days later Mexicans were targeted and murdered in that El Paso Walmart shooting.
Coincidence, maybe. I sure had no doubt what Sexton was telling his listeners to do (of course he wasn't alone - "the southern invasion" was a fevered talking point throughout right-wing media at the time). Knowing now that he was a CIA Intelligence Officer, we can be sure Sexton knew exactly what he was doing too.
Now he is prime time conservative talk radio uber-broadcaster having taken over Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient Rush Limbaugh's show.

I've not seen or heard Joy Reed, though I've heard the name (from Hannity, I think)

[orange808]

" I was shocked that this was being broadcast as it was clear to me; from the totality of his segment, he had just egged his listeners on to go and kill Mexicans. It also immediately struck me how manipulative and cowardly the guy was - stoking blood thirst in his listeners but then back peddling and putting the onus on them to follow through

Indeed. That's something a lot of us have been discussing.

https://www.albanyherald.com/news/the-u ... 4b0e1.html

There's also the issue of fundraising. Republicans have faced reduced contributions from horrified reputable constituents, so they're turning to "grass roots". In this case, exact Timothy McVeigh clones. To get their moneys, they shamelessly, cynically, and recklessly encourage extremists. They're growing wingnuts.

[BulletMagnet]

If he did nothing illegal, how could he be punished legally?

You misunderstand, I'm not talking about ignoring the statutes on the books just because you don't like them (though I can only wonder how the "law and order" fetishists would have reacted had the verdict gone in the other direction); what I am saying is that when existing law allows for situations like this to transpire and for those involved to credibly say they did everything on the up-and-up, I would hope that most people see this state of affairs as less than ideal and thus open to the idea that at least some aspects of existing law (i.e. the loophole mentioned earlier that allows minors to possess AR-15s) might be worth revisiting.

Why is so much made of all the things Kyle did wrong (the only thing he did "wrong" was to show up, which is only "wrong" from a particular moral point of view based around not antagonizing violent rioters), but none made of what the rioters did wrong?

Come off it dude, you're not an idiot. Nobody is saying that what the rioters were doing wasn't wrong. What folks are saying is that Rittenhouse grabbed an assault rifle, marched into a bad situation and made it even worse, and moreover that it's frankly difficult to comprehend how he thought for even a second that literally anything else was going to be the result of his actions.

Some serial killers are inspired by previous serial killers, this is also true. But there are not millions of serial killers running around because of Charles Manson.

Manson was also not offered internships by multiple members of Congress.

And yes I do think that child rapists should be killed.

Out of curiosity, would you feel any differently about what Rittenhouse did if the people he shot didn't have criminal records (or at least records not "bad enough" to put them in the "human excrement" category)? Or, for that matter, would you have judged him any differently if he were a year or two older and thus no longer a minor when he decided to take his "humanitarian" trip to Kenosha?

[rapoon]

And yes I do think that child rapists should be killed.

Out of curiosity, would you feel any differently about what Rittenhouse did if the people he shot didn't have criminal records (or at least records not "bad enough" to put them in the "human excrement" category)? Or, for that matter, would you have judged him any differently if he were a year or two older and thus no longer a minor when he decided to take his "humanitarian" trip to Kenosha?

That's an interesting point you're making. Rittenhouse didn't know Rosenbaum was a habitual child rapist. He just happened to get "lucky" shooting someone who's only one societal rung up from a child murderer.
I fail to see the benefit of mentioning Rosenbaums transgressions in the same breath as a Rittenhouse defense. Had Rosenbaum been on his way home with medicine for his ailing daughter, the political positions on mentioning the victims past would be entirely reversed.

The most depressing result is after the climax, we're finding ourselves further entrenched in a politically manichaean landscape.

[Rob]

(good to see you around again BTW! wish it was in happier surroundings )

Thank you, BIL. I admire your ability to give even the most head hammering current events a lighthearted touch. It's been a long and pretty zany few years. Met a sweet ooman just before covid popped off, got married this year and trying to stay busy, but can never say a permanent goodbye to the Farm.

Is there a particular point from that article that you find disagreeable?

It's just an example of something you've had the good fortune of not seeing. The trial was about self-defense. The media argument by repetition: "it's all about race because we make it all about race". Shoehorn an unrelated case (the one where the white men with guns were the pursuers rather than the pursued and where there was an actual racial component between shooter and shootee), give megaphone to a Georgetown law professor with a chip on his shoulder ("white privilege on steroids"), etc. It's a near perfect encapsulation of the media feedback loop. You might not have your opinions shaped by these pieces and tactics, but they seem to be working on many.

[Sima Tuna]

If he did nothing illegal, how could he be punished legally?

You misunderstand, I'm not talking about ignoring the statutes on the books just because you don't like them (though I can only wonder how the "law and order" fetishists would have reacted had the verdict gone in the other direction); what I am saying is that when existing law allows for situations like this to transpire and for those involved to credibly say they did everything on the up-and-up, I would hope that most people see this state of affairs as less than ideal and thus open to the idea that at least some aspects of existing law (i.e. the loophole mentioned earlier that allows minors to possess AR-15s) might be worth revisiting.

I was actually going to respond to your point about patching the law, because what you said was very reasonable. I know our justice system isn't perfect. I'm not in favor of the death penalties in cases where there is some doubt as to the guilt of the offender. But I am in favor of it in cases where the crime is heinous beyond belief and there is no doubt as to the guilt of the offender. In Rosenbaum's case, I believe he had 10-11 convictions for child rape? I could be wrong about the number. I think it's reasonable to execute under those conditions.

I have often heard the point BIL made about how it causes more suffering to keep the criminal alive forever in prison. I'm not interested in their suffering, despite claims that I am bloodthirsty. I don't actually want criminals to suffer at all. I want criminals who commit truly horrible crimes to be disposed of humanely, cheaply and permanently. For the good of society, it is better they simply not be around at all. But of course, this would have to be for cases where we know the criminal is guilty. And we know Rosenbaum was.

To your point about everyone knowing the rioters were wrong, well... Maybe everyone on this forum knows that. I realize people in American politics often end up arguing past each other. Such-and-such liberal ends up arguing against Rush Limbaugh and making so-and-so conservative mad because he's arguing past against Mark Ruffalo or some other Hollywood checkmark with hilariously awful takes. I think I said at the start that what Kyle did was dumb. Not illegal. But dumb. Young people make alarmingly stupid decisions sometimes.

And yes I do think that child rapists should be killed.

Out of curiosity, would you feel any differently about what Rittenhouse did if the people he shot didn't have criminal records (or at least records not "bad enough" to put them in the "human excrement" category)? Or, for that matter, would you have judged him any differently if he were a year or two older and thus no longer a minor when he decided to take his "humanitarian" trip to Kenosha?

It wouldn't matter one bit to his case. I think I said so. Whether the people killed by Kyle were saints or demons, the fact was they attacked him while he was running away, pointed a loaded weapon at him and forced him to defend his life. The court/jury upheld that version of events and discounted the prosecution's version.

It only matters to me personally that the people who attacked him ended up being people our society will not miss. At least one of whom should not have been on the streets-another example of laws needing to be patched. I suppose the past (horrific) behavior of Kyle's victims matters as much to me as Kyle's intent in traveling to Kenosha does to some others. It's interesting to talk about but ultimately irrelevant to the facts of his case. Although the criminal record of those attackers is public information, whereas we will never know Kyle's motives.

I'm not sure Kyle's age is relevant to his case either. I don't know if him being a couple years older would have changed the facts of his self-defense case any. It's hypothetical either way.

[Koa Zo]

Is there a particular point from that article that you find disagreeable?

It's just an example of something you've had the good fortune of not seeing. The trial was about self-defense. The media argument by repetition: "it's all about race because we make it all about race". Shoehorn an unrelated case (the one where the white men with guns were the pursuers rather than the pursued and where there was an actual racial component between shooter and shootee), give megaphone to a Georgetown law professor with a chip on his shoulder ("white privilege on steroids"), etc. It's a near perfect encapsulation of the media feedback loop. You might not have your opinions shaped by these pieces and tactics, but they seem to be working on many.

Yes, truth be told, I've not been following closely. Something about this Kyle Rittenhouse kid and the associated spectacle has particularly repulsed me. The narratives are certainly wild and loose. I've seen an online comment and a separate meme how Kyle got away with killing black people because he was white.
We've long been warned about what would happen to public discourse thanks to the information superhighway and the erosion of gatekeepers. Anything goes.

Regarding the media feedback loop, I certainly agree. Often people only see it from the "other" side though.
I'd long been concerned with media and violence, and that feedback loop.
I've always loved how Natural Born Killers addressed that.

[BulletMagnet]

I think I said at the start that what Kyle did was dumb. Not illegal. But dumb. Young people make alarmingly stupid decisions sometimes.

To repeat what I've already mentioned, in the aftermath of all this a significant chunk of the public, including numerous political figures, Rittenhouse's parents and Rittenhouse himself, have made absolutely zero concessions on this point; they all insist that every single thing he did that night was not only perfectly justified but perfectly logical and reasonable. And that's why I'm even more worried about follow-up incidents in this case than in others.

As such, if someone does something so dumb - but not illegal - that people wind up dead as a result, should the law be amended in some way so as to render that degree of "dumb" act punishable to at least some extent? And yes, I'm well aware of the risks of over-legislating in response to tragedy, but still, in a case where so many different things went so wrong, should we really be content to just leave things as they are?

I don't know if him being a couple years older would have changed the facts of his self-defense case any. It's hypothetical either way.

The self-defense part, probably not, but the "how in the world did you think going there that night was a good idea" part, whether in terms of admittable evidence or mere public perception - is another story (not to mention how his admission that he carried the gun because it "looked cool" came off).

[orange808]

How does the concept of revenge inform your world view? I understand the urge, but I don't believe in it. That's where it goes off the rails for a lot of people. They must have revenge.

It's not going to work if you can't find a way to let that go.

[Koa Zo]

A new video from American trash rocker "Kid Rock" is trending after Weird Al Yankovic clarified it isn't one of his videos.
Perfectly packaged anthem for the anti-masker anti-vaccine, anti-authority, anti-community, anti-neighbor, self-absorbed crowd. I didn't know airbrushed overalls with no shirt was a hard-boy style in the American heartland bar scene.

[Mischief Maker]

A new video from American trash rocker "Kid Rock" is trending after Weird Al Yankovic clarified it isn't one of his videos.
Perfectly packaged anthem for the anti-masker anti-vaccine, anti-authority, anti-community, anti-neighbor, self-absorbed crowd. I didn't know airbrushed overalls with no shirt was a hard-boy style in the American heartland bar scene.

[BIL]

I have often heard the point BIL made about how it causes more suffering to keep the criminal alive forever in prison. I'm not interested in their suffering, despite claims that I am bloodthirsty. I don't actually want criminals to suffer at all.

To clarify, that's more of a crumb tossed to "rarr, he still alive and lovin it" sorts. Like most, I have a visceral disgust for chomos. I still wouldn't send them to Caligula's saw. That kind of carnage degrades a society, I believe.

(getting nostalgic for Criminology A-Levels, where the Scandinavian "holiday camp" model was contrasted with mahfuckin Black Dolphin... which model produces the more societally benificial result? which one scares the shit out of all but the most desperate would-be criminals? life always comes back to balance)

[Rob]

A new video from American trash rocker "Kid Rock" is trending after Weird Al Yankovic clarified it isn't one of his videos.
Perfectly packaged anthem for the anti-masker anti-vaccine, anti-authority, anti-community, anti-neighbor, self-absorbed crowd. I didn't know airbrushed overalls with no shirt was a hard-boy style in the American heartland bar scene.

Unironic Team America vibes. Masterpiece.

[Sengoku Strider]

"ft.Monster Truck"

I have never felt more lied to.

I didn't know airbrushed overalls with no shirt was a hard-boy style in the American heartland bar scene.

I for one am shocked that the YouTube censors were okay with this much side boob.

Spoiler

[drauch]

I've got BOTH Rap Packs Kid Rock cards in my garage. I should get them PSA graded. He's my favorite chameleon. Is he a rapper? Nu metaler? Country star? He does it all!

[Sengoku Strider]

I've got BOTH Rap Packs Kid Rock cards in my garage. I should get them PSA graded. He's my favorite chameleon. Is he a rapper? Nu metaler? Country star? He does it all!

Also pretty sure he does the Bartman:

[EmperorIng]

Is that mirror universe Macaulay Culkin?

[BIL]

That's actually Kid Coolout, shortly after he dissed MC Hammer's mama on a bet. In classic Oakland style, they took him to a local playground and hanged him by his wrists from a swing set, then proceeded to beat him with a rubber bat, hook jumper cables up to his balls (voltage drawn from Hammer's 1979 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, which was bouncing merrily on its hydraulics, the headlights giving the scene a poppin' strobe effect), before finally ramming an exceptionally large and fresh rainbow trout up his asshole. When he was found the next morning, he'd gone an entire shade lighter, resembling a Dangerous-era Michael Jackson. That photo was snapped by a pap who'd tracked him down to the #1 anal sphincter reconstruction man in the Pacific Northwest.

[Sengoku Strider]

That's actually Kid Coolout, shortly after he dissed MC Hammer's mama on a bet. In classic Oakland style, they took him to a local playground and hanged him by his wrists from a swing set, then proceeded to beat him with a rubber bat

Not sure if that was what you were going for, but MC Hammer genuinely was connected in Oakland and people who dissed him in a way he didn't like ended up meeting some characters they wished they hadn't. Even now, rappers from that time are like "whoah now" when the subject of him comes up.

Is that mirror universe Macaulay Culkin?

[BIL]

Hammer avenging he mama honour to terrifying effect is indeed ancient lore Redman has a good story, though all of Red's stories are good.

Seeing all the Hollywood goobers lining up to performatively lick "JoJo's" taint has me recalling a rather more literal MC Hammer, tbh! Now there's a nonce basher to remember.

Oh! Speaking of the light-skinned homies:

Spoiler

Yo what the fuck - did he get into the cake soap? Some bad shit, stay away bredrens Or did Reuters white him up a bit? Maybe he saw the ghost of the 8y/o boy he murdered Kid carked it last night, some of the others aren't doing so hot either.

To summarise the killer's internet presence, via the magic of Steely P & The Vinland Boat Bois:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ptC2La7k5E

Israel hates him! Austria man discovers this one weird old trick
HITLER KNEW WHO THE REAL JEWS WERE!!!

Spoiler

(I've always loved the soldier's oddly capitalised response. "Do you know who America has in its possession?" "NO" )



Comrades, after their gallant expose of Rittenhouse's extensively documented Nazi affiliations, I have every faith that glorious Western media apparatus will display self-same diligence.

[Mischief Maker]

This is quite possibly the greatest thing ever.

Spoiler

It's not 12 hours, it's one hour looping endlessly.

(This could have easily gone in the cancel culture or covid threads.)

[vol.2]

okay. the first four minutes made me want to chew off my own arm and is making me feel violent. is that what's supposed to happen?

[Mischief Maker]

okay. the first four minutes made me want to chew off my own arm and is making me feel violent. is that what's supposed to happen?

Spoiler

I take it you're not a regular listener to the Joe Rogan podcast.

I for one am a convert to the science of "crab salts."

[vol.2]

Nope on Joe Rogan. I have always hated that guy even back to the News Radio days when he felt mostly useless but often aversive. Don't think I could handle listening to his mug regardless of politics.