Prelude to the Apocalypse

[vol.2]

idk. the reason for continued conflict in the middle east has always been oil. i look at the withdraw from afgantistan with the suspicion that the value proposition in the sandbox has tipped to the other side off the scale. if that's the case, i don't see billion per mech suit being spent on anything in that neck of the woods.

we aren't so civilized here as to be motivated by the very real humanitarian concerns.

[orange808]

idk. the reason for continued conflict in the middle east has always been oil. i look at the withdraw from afgantistan with the suspicion that the value proposition in the sandbox has tipped to the other side off the scale. if that's the case, i don't see billion per mech suit being spent on anything in that neck of the woods.

we aren't so civilized here as to be motivated by the very real humanitarian concerns.

Here's my view on invading and "fixing up" other nations:
https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

It just doesn't work. It really doesn't matter what you do. It's the trials of Sisyphus.

[Mischief Maker]

Here's my view on invading and "fixing up" other nations:
https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Yeah, remember when Iraq had a modern electrified infrastructure, then the US blew up their power supply and enforced decades of brutal sanctions that blocked the import of parts necessary to get said infrastructure back up and running, so people had raw sewage leaking out their toilets?

Or how about when Iran democratically elected a socialist then the US sponsored a violent coup, throwing them back into the age of totalitarian monarchy?

Why don't these ungrateful primitives appreciate all the good stuff colonialism brought to them?

[Sengoku Strider]

idk. the reason for continued conflict in the middle east has always been oil. i look at the withdraw from afgantistan with the suspicion that the value proposition in the sandbox has tipped to the other side off the scale. if that's the case, i don't see billion per mech suit being spent on anything in that neck of the woods.

we aren't so civilized here as to be motivated by the very real humanitarian concerns.

You'll note that I didn't say they'd be American geckos. And it's one of those eternal historical truths that nobody's wars are motivated by real humanitarian concerns - which is literally the premise of MGS4; it's just private military contractors fighting each other in proxy wars because the military industrial complex is massively profitable and allows for tons of graft. Here in the real world, the unprofitable wars only get UN observers.

As for the value proposition in Afghanistan...it went out the window in the mid-00s, when it became glaringly obvious a stable neoliberal regime wasn't ever coming together. The occupation went on as long as it did because:

1) Money laundering
2) Empty hope of a neoliberal regime springing out of the ground on the part of people with no grasp on the situation.
3) Fear that a Taliban revival could spread to nuclear power Pakistan, where a lot of the Mujahideen came from the in the first place.
4) Money laundering
5) Fear that a Taliban regime would flood insurgents into Iraq making it impossible to hold.
6) The delusion that Iraq was possible to hold.
7) Money laundering
8 ) Not wanting Putin to roll in and just secure pipeline territory because who even cares about the rest.
9) Not wanting China to fund authoritarian proxies there, threaten Pakistan to pincer India...and also secure pipeline territory.
10) Avoiding letting the world see that American comprador colonial projects are completely toothless if the populace doesn't roll over.
11) Terrorism again
12) Money laundering
13)It's always an election year.
14) Total chaos, re-emergence of pan-Arab empire, Saudi whales unable to bribe senators anymore, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria.
15) HEROIN HEROIN HEROIN OPIATES OPIATES OPIATES

[Mischief Maker]

There's a giant hole in your list there:

HEROIN

[Sengoku Strider]

There's a giant hole in your list there:

HEROIN

My goodness, you're right. Edited.

[orange808]

Here's my view on invading and "fixing up" other nations:
https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Yeah, remember when Iraq had a modern electrified infrastructure, then the US blew up their power supply and enforced decades of brutal sanctions that blocked the import of parts necessary to get said infrastructure back up and running, so people had raw sewage leaking out their toilets?

Or how about when Iran democratically elected a socialist then the US sponsored a violent coup, throwing them back into the age of totalitarian monarchy?

Why don't these ungrateful primitives appreciate all the good stuff colonialism brought to them?

You're right, but, you're using a blunt "whattaboutism", here. This isn't Iraq.

It doesn't matter what you do, because people don't want to be controlled by a foreign power. Also, when you try to set up a government, you have to partner with people in country. If all those people are corrupt, there's no path forward. Why try to win when you can't win?

Everyone involved is always going to have their hand out (on all sides). Nobody actually cares about people. So, yes, everyone is to blame. But, why bother when we already know that?

Nobody bothered to read the paper I linked on Afghanistan. "The other channel is better, because it doesn't tax your mind!"

People there think they have the most corrupt government ever. Is that really true? Corruption has always been there and probably always will be. They prefer instant death sentences and religious rule. The corruption they face is nothing new. Maybe their biggest gripe is being told what to do by foreigners.

So, let them be.

Also, you can't go round sniping Trumpers and defend the foreign equivalent. It's the same song, different verse. We can fight it at home, but we can't impose entirely alien values elsewhere. It doesn't work--and no amount of gifts or investment will get it done. They want to be free. Let them.

I'm not saying the Soviet bloc treated the Balkans well, but shit sure did go down hill when they got their freedom. Let them be, too. Can't fix it.

What about the children, you ask? Well, I agree. What about Ethiopian or Somalian children? We didn't do a thing. So, sit back down.

[Mischief Maker]

Here's my view on invading and "fixing up" other nations:
https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Yeah, remember when Iraq had a modern electrified infrastructure, then the US blew up their power supply and enforced decades of brutal sanctions that blocked the import of parts necessary to get said infrastructure back up and running, so people had raw sewage leaking out their toilets?

Or how about when Iran democratically elected a socialist then the US sponsored a violent coup, throwing them back into the age of totalitarian monarchy?

Why don't these ungrateful primitives appreciate all the good stuff colonialism brought to them?

Nobody bothered to read the paper I linked on Afghanistan. "The other channel is better, because it doesn't tax your mind!"

Fuck, dude, you want me memorize all your past posts? Going over the last page and a half you linked Life of Brian, an article about American's net worth, Bar Rescue guy's hometown property values, and Plan 9 from Outer Space.

You said the Life of Brian joke summed up your thoughts on Afghanistan, and the whole joke was how the Judeans were a bunch of primitive screw-heads before the Romans showed up and brought them order and modern technology, and how silly it was for them to be so ungrateful.

Anyhow, I'm not getting drawn into another orange808 goalpost vortex.

[orange808]

Anyhow, I'm not getting drawn into another orange808 goalpost vortex.

I didn't bring Iraq into the conversation. Apples and oranges. There are many reasons Afghanistan couldn't be fixed, but one of the big ones is: they didn't want to be invaded in the first place.

[BryanM]

The whole wanting food, medical care, and infrastructure thing always makes me laugh. We can't even provide those things or a functioning government that cares to our own population, let alone someone else's.

It was a twenty year long project. For all the treasure and lives spent on it, we could have done far better.. If doing better was the objective, which is very hard for me to believe.

[Blinge]

Modern powers that have pretensions towards morality, in the information age, can't hold onto a place like that. maybe a power like nazi germany would be able to do it.

yo why did trump's administration release the dude that leads the taliban jeeeesus

[according to people on the UK's daily mail comment section, this is all Bidens fault and Afghans themselves are cowards]
brb hanging myself, don't wanna share a planet with these dumb fucks.

Feel bad for the women, as usual. Already heard stories of some mother's eyes being gouged out because she wouldn't give her daughter up as a sex slave.

[BulletMagnet]

daily mail comment section

Why would you do that to yourself?

Meanwhile...

[vol.2]

Oh just ran across this on twitter today. It's time for the attention grabbers to cash in on their not-guilt over afganistan:

https://twitter.com/judeasspriest/statu ... 0551704581

[Sengoku Strider]

Oh just ran across this on twitter today. It's time for the attention grabbers to cash in on their not-guilt over afganistan:

https://twitter.com/judeasspriest/statu ... 0551704581

Stuff that "happens" outside America is just a false flag anyway.

[orange808]

Feel bad for the women, as usual. Already heard stories of some mother's eyes being gouged out because she wouldn't give her daughter up as a sex slave.

Sure, but that's how it works.

Truly financing a full salaried army is rather uncommon in history. Most conquering armies are paid in rape and loot.

In history class, I was initially told that Constantinople was taken after years of siege and the wise Ottomans extended their own brand of "freedom of religion" and started building their new capital. The city's trade business flourished and everything was peachy! Well.. They didn't mention the first few days. That's when the army got paid. They sacked the city--leaving a train of rape, murder, and destruction in their path. That was no different than how the church financed the crusades. Crusaders may have caused more mayhem than the Ottomans did. Every time the city changed hands, people suffered.

That's how armies get paid. Given that people probably join religious military groups out of desperate poverty, you can't just surrender, negotiate, and take their payment off the table. It's happening no matter what.

[Sengoku Strider]

Direct hit. I think China sank America's Battleship.

[Steamflogger Boss]

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1425590373167075330

These always crack me up.

[vol.2]

Whenever I hear something like this, my mind always goes back to The Hitchhiker's Guide line when Ford and Arthur are in the bar chugging beer to cushion the effect of the hyperdrive and the barman thinks Ford is talking about football;

"What's that, foregone conclusion then, you reckon sir?" said the barman. "Arsenal without a chance?" "No no," said Ford, "it's just that the world's about to end."

"Oh yes, sir, so you said," said the barman, looking over his glasses this time at Arthur. "Lucky escape for Arsenal if it did."

And then he asks if they should put paper bags over their heads and Ford says "If you like."

[Sengoku Strider]

When the kid down the street gets a regressive assault rifle theocracy but your mom just keeps saying "Not now honey, maybe for Christmas."

[Steamflogger Boss]

I've got great news. Afghanistan was clearly a success! By what metric you ask?

https://theintercept.com/2021/08/16/afg ... se-stocks/

[BryanM]

Modern powers that have pretensions towards morality, in the information age, can't hold onto a place like that. maybe a power like nazi germany would be able to do it.

Bringing up the Nazis reminds me how Osama Bin Laden always liked to say the place accepted refugees during WWII.

Afghanistan is a landlocked country packed full of mountains with ~40 million people in it. The borderlines are completely imaginary; the people there are separate from one another in their own tribal communities with their own power structures. The border with Pakistan is even more fictional and imaginary, since it cuts one of these small nations in half.

Such a place cannot be conquered unless it wants to be. Not with the resources anyone sane is willing to expend. The number of infantry in the US Army is around 60,000 at any given time, and to take the place over you need to basically dump the population of a California or Texas or New York and have them live there full time.

So that's why the primary strategy is the classic neoliberal playbook - take over the cities, invest in the cities, and leave the countryside to rot. (Applies to domestic policy as well!) Thus the obsession with killing any fighters that occupy a city no matter the collateral damage. It's easier to control a smaller area with limited resources, and let's be honest here: in the eyes of the people dictating policy, they flat out value the cities and the kind of people who live there more.

They probably don't think growing food is terribly important. They live in a world of stock numbers, while the people on the ground live in a world of blood and meat.

We literally ran out of bombs bombing the place. The Soviet and British empires probably weren't that much more gentle than we were. In terms of force, we could have murdered everyone there in nuclear hellfire. But rule them? Change them? Have them pay us tribute?

Not the entire place all at once, that was a fantasy at best, a scam in reality. It's a hundred year long project, and involving much smaller and much more manageable subregions at a time. Instead of fighting every single prince and warlord in the entire place at once.

... jesus fucking christ, video gamers capable of MMO style "mob pulling" have better strategic grounding than the guys ordering around our real life military have. That's... horrifying.

-------

All this time and about the only media that tried to humanize the people there was when three political cartoonists took a walk across the country. Our propaganda is ridiculous.

The gap between the capitalists' view of the world and those on the ground was illustrated pretty starkly with Bors' story about how they view money there.

[Steamflogger Boss]

The gap between the capitalists' view of the world and those on the ground was illustrated pretty starkly with Bors' story about how they view money there.

This is very good, been sharing it a lot.

[orange808]

That's pure capitalism. All I see is corruption.

It's a grift. The people that are connected enough to accept and exchange American money in the global market decided to take advantage of mostly undereducated people with no other options.

They tell them the worn money is worth less? Well, if you think about it, anything worn is usually worth less, so common sense suggests it could be true. I can see why people might believe it.

Even if you know better, there's no way most people can exchange American money at its full value. People must trust "bankers". As always, the bankers take advantage of their position. Nothing novel in this story.

All I see is naked capitalism and corruption.

Their entire banking system is corrupt. That's where all the distrust comes from. I fail to see how captialism isn't involved, though. That's pure capitalism.

[Sengoku Strider]

The gap between the capitalists' view of the world and those on the ground was illustrated pretty starkly with Bors' story about how they view money there.

That's fantastic, it reminds me a lot of Joe Sacco's work. Safe Area Gorazde is still one of the most powerful works of journalism I've ever read:

Spoiler

[orange808]

lmao! He straight up admits he needs to exploit desperate immigrants to run his shit business. He straight up admits he has a shit job that pays nothing and he needs someone to exploit. Classic.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/c ... story.html

Keep that door locked extra tight. Make a quota, ban "merit based immigration" (it allows sexist foreign societies to pick winners (men) and injects their values into our home), quickly make immigrants citizens without red tape (no more deportation for quitting), and unionize immigrants (so they won't take shit pay). Feed business their own shit sandwich.

[BulletMagnet]

They're not going to learn. They're not going to learn. They're not going to learn.

[BryanM]

This memorial Sunday, let's take a moment of remembrance of the ptp digital card game.

You might hazily recall my enthusiasm for Hex: Shards of Fate when I remarked on how the Mightsinger of Ages card I got one day was worth 20 buckeroos on its own. This card, it was really fucking strong.

But, like with all digital objects such as Bitcoin, it's only worth something as long as people believe it is. And when the servers went down, eh, let's say it's not worth 20 buckeroos today.

Valve's game Artifact is indeed an artifact of the 90's as well. They, too, did not get the memo on the last decade of the videogame market and had some crusty dinosaur develop their business model. This AAA+ youtube comment sums it up perfectly:

-------

Artifact: We are going buy 2 play.
Me: Im out
Artifact: There will be no free card drafts, every tournament will cost money
Me: Im already gone man!

-------

Somehow, with our post-material society, I feel this is a bit relevant in broader scopes than just a children's card game.

[Sengoku Strider]

Judge orders Rudy Giuliani and Sydney Powell to go back to remedial law school.

This is the Netflix sitcom the world needs.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

As usual, the Republican party immediately resorts to hypocrisy without a shred of shame or self-awareness, calling for Biden to resign immediately because of the mess in Afghanistan, despite it being several decades in the making, and the more recent withdrawal date being the result of Trump's negotiations with the Taliban.

The fact that Republican voters can tolerate, let alone celebrate this kind of grotesquely self-serving and unethical behavior, is a tragedy for America. It's the sort of thing that in a sensible climate would immediately result in those politicians becoming unelectable pariahs.

[Sengoku Strider]

As usual, the Republican party immediately resorts to hypocrisy without a shred of shame or self-awareness, calling for Biden to resign immediately because of the mess in Afghanistan, despite it being several decades in the making, and the more recent withdrawal date being the result of Trump's negotiations with the Taliban.

The fact that Republican voters can tolerate, let alone celebrate this kind of grotesquely self-serving and unethical behavior, is a tragedy for America. It's the sort of thing that in a sensible climate would immediately result in those politicians becoming unelectable pariahs.

Most of their voters don't see it as unethical or self-serving.

In most of their voters' minds, Biden subverted democracy to illegally win the election. He's senile and incapable, put up as a manipulable prop for the Marxists in the shadows. In most of their voters' minds, Russia Russia Russia and The Perfect Phone Call were nothingburger pretexts the Democrats were using to get rid of Trump, because he was rooting out their corruption. In most of their voters' minds, the Democrats use every dirty trick in the book while their side struggles unfairly from playing nice.

So in their reality this is just the good guys finally trying to beat the villains at their own game, and for a just reason. It plays into their confirmation bias that Republicans are the tough-minded good guys who represent the military, and so are good at army stuff. Meanwhile Democrats are delusional sissies who sit around thinking about how to get rid of guns all day, so they have no idea what to do when they have to give orders around them.

The technocrats behind the conservative information machine have spent a good long time constructing this bubble, and their voters are generally happy to live in it.

All that being said, I fully believe they'd be pissed at Trump if/when the same thing happened under his watch. The only way it could have played out differently is if they'd known the Afghan army were going to give up without a fight before they'd even left, but nobody anywhere was saying that. Intelligence people were saying worst case it collapsed in a few months after the pullout. But most figured it had a couple of years in it, like the Marxist government did after the Soviet pullout. Surely the Afghan people couldn't have wanted that atheistic regime more than they wanted this.