Prelude to the Apocalypse

A place where you can chat about anything that isn't to do with games!

Iran War. When.

2021
3
6%
2022-2025
15
28%
2026-2030
7
13%
2031-2040
3
6%
2041-2050
0
No votes
Never
25
47%
 
Total votes: 53

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orange808
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by orange808 »

@cvaniafan
Both of the last two US elections were legit. No election in history has ever been perfect. Perfection is the goal, but it's not a realistic measurement for "legitimate".

The common American standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Promoting the idea (directly or INDIRECTLY) that our general elections are hopelessly rigged and illegitimate is reckless, crazy, and dangerous. I complain that political parties have the option to exercise outsized power in primaries, but that has nothing to do with general elections. Gore and Bush was the last election that fell into the uncomfortable "too close to call" category. Even under those difficult circumstances, we have to find a way to put country over dogma and carry on.

Fascist? lmao Once upon a time, you might be excused for misusing that term, but you have 24/7 access to an online dictionary. There's no dictator here. You weren't silenced. You don't have the right to never be challenged. Look up the word you're misusing.
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GaijinPunch
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by GaijinPunch »

FinalBaton wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote: (Hint - you don't have to show an ID to vote). Maybe we should ban in person voting?
Or... show an ID to vote.
This falls under disenfranchising... enough info on the interwebs to not have to get into that debate here.
orange808 wrote:Gore and Bush was the last election that fell into the uncomfortable "too close to call" category.
And only in one state. Death to the electoral college.
Last edited by GaijinPunch on Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cvaniafan
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

orange808 wrote:@cvaniafan
Both of the last two US elections were legit. No election in history has ever been perfect. Perfection is the goal, but it's not a realistic measurement for "legitimate".

The common American standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Promoting the idea (directly or INDIRECTLY) that our general elections are hopelessly rigged and illegitimate is reckless, crazy, and dangerous. I complain that political parties have the option to exercise outsized power in primaries, but that has nothing to do with general elections. Gore and Bush was the last election that fell into the uncomfortable "too close to call" category. Even under those difficult circumstances, we have to find a way to put country over dogma and carry on.

Fascist? lmao Once upon a time, you might be excused for misusing that term, but you have 24/7 access to an online dictionary. There's no dictator here. You weren't silenced. You don't have the right to never be challenged. Look up the word you're misusing.
Either way, Trump was your president. I think instead of whining about Trump every day, the Dems should have had some perspective and asked themselves the right questions:
- "Why was Trump elected ?"
- "Who elected Trump to be president of the United States ?".

When I express my ideas on a subject, I do not judge or insult anyone who does not think like me, and I'm not responsible for Trump coming to the White House

Even though I maintain that some curious things happened with the vote counting during the first two nights, from the very beginning I admit there is no proof, and I reject any conspiracy theory, so it's stupid to accuse me of conspiracy just because I'm saying I dislike the constant media hype that dictates a single thought about Trump's global assessment and which also dictates who is Good and who is Evil.

On the other hand, I would also point out that a lot of Dems have spent their time accusing their opponent of being elected thanks to Putin, but they do not have proof either, and their theory also is conspiracy. Yet it is tolerated and acceptable for the mass media and networks, because it compromises Trump... In summary, it is according to whom the conspiracy aims: there is "bad conspiracy", and "good conspiracy".
Double standards.
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BulletMagnet
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BulletMagnet »

cvaniafan wrote:On the other hand, I would also point out that a lot of Dems have spent their time accusing their opponent of being elected thanks to Putin, but they do not have proof either, and their theory also is conspiracy.
What the Dems accuse Putin of doing is tacitly spreading misinformation about the candidates during the run-up to 2016 - Russia certainly wasn't the only party doing it, but the false info out there was enough to change enough votes in certain "swing" states to hand the Electoral College to Trump despite losing the popular vote by several million. So that, in significant part, answers your proposed question of "why was Trump elected", though we'll get to the other half of that (for the millionth time :roll:) in a bit.

Moreover, US intelligence agencies' own findings support what was described above, so no, people who say this aren't "whining" or dealing in "conspiracy theories", unless you're somehow inclined to believe that the entire intelligence sector was somehow also trying to delegitimize Trump, in which case you might want to pause for a second and reassess who, exactly, is combing the fringes for something, anything, that will support their preconceived notion of what happened, no matter how unlikely.

And just as a reminder, you, like most of the GOP and other "skeptics", are attempting to draw an equivalence between the above and "the entire election was corrupt, top to bottom, and everyone was in on it...but we're only going to contest the parts that came close enough to potentially overturn, and will present exactly zero evidence to support any of what we're saying." Sorry, but that doesn't even begin to parse.
I dislike the constant media hype that dictates a single thought about Trump's global assessment and which also dictates who is Good and who is Evil.
It's worth remembering that when Trump was a candidate, despite lacking anything remotely resembling a coherent policy platform (remember the 10 trillion-dollar budget plan? :lol:), media across the board continued to give him billions of dollars' worth of free coverage because he was good for ratings, instead of doing the responsible thing and dismissing him as the incompetent clown he was (so there's your answer for "who got Trump elected" - without them he'd have never made it past the primaries). Hell, his boosters used to crow about how this proved he was a genius.

Once he was in office, of course, any negative coverage was immediately branded "fake news" and the outlet in question an "enemy of the state" (and suddenly all the cries of "genius" turned overnight to cries of "conspiracy" :roll:) - by the end, of course, even Fox News, which had done almost nothing but carry water for Trump for years on end, was deemed insufficiently loyal. So unless you believe that everyone, up to and including Fox, was out to get him every time they criticized a single thing he did, again I would suggest asking yourself who's grasping at conspiratorial straws.

Was some coverage of Trump unfair or biased? Sure, same as it is for every President. As others have said, were there minor, localized irregularities during the election? Sure, same as there are during every election. To go beyond that, however, and suggest that this time was different to the point that we should be questioning not only our overall assessment of Trump (frankly, I'd absolutely love to read any accounting of his presidency which attempts to argue that the amount of harm he did to both the country and the world doesn't outpace the good by orders of magnitude, and that the vast majority of the criticism against him wasn't richly deserved) but the results of the election itself, despite flying directly in the face of all available evidence to the contrary and lending a patina of legitimacy to the mob that ransacked the Capitol? Sorry, but the border from "skeptical curiosity" to "willful ignorance" has been well and truly crossed.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

Hey #fraudsquad people!

Instead of sipping cosmos with Lady Gaga, during Biden's inauguration AOC was delivering food to, and standing in solidarity with striking workers. Without a security detail, mind you, despite the constant death threats.

Meanwhile the grand arbiter of who is a true leftie and who is a sellout, Jimmy Dore, was musing about a red-brown alliance with the Boogaloo Boys.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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cvaniafan
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

BulletMagnet wrote:And just as a reminder, you, like most of the GOP and other "skeptics"


Important people always have an explanation and a whole bunch of official organizations to back up their accusations against their rival, even when Justice does not grant their request. This is what happened with Trump and his lawyers when they claimed there was electoral fraud, they did not have enough solid evidence, but they claimed to have it from several official sources.
With the Dems and their powerful friends, it's exactly the same: what I observe so far is that they tried everything to get Trump removed, but they never succeeded because they did not have sufficient evidence. Maybe that will change tomorrow, but we're not tomorrow yet, and the solid evidence is still missing so far.

I am not a "skeptic" nor GOP, I do not belong to any specific group, and I'm not american, which explains my poor English. My point was simply to say that today more than ever, there is a dominant ideology which is dictated by groups of overpowered communicators (GAFAM, mass media, entertainment, cinema and music business, press), and these big brothers reduce the vision of the world to Good versus Evil, without a slightest nuance. I also note that just pointing out this is enough to be categorized in the Evil category, and personally I'm fed up with that binary, simplified, contemptuous vision of everything and everyone, and this is how these ideological powers are in the process of establishing the fucking Cancel Culture. It's the only thing I say, nothing more, nothing less.
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BulletMagnet
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BulletMagnet »

cvaniafan wrote:I am not a "skeptic"
If you refuse to doubt the "official" version of events because you assume that there must be some other, hidden truth that someone is trying to hide, you are by definition a skeptic.

For whatever it's worth, skepticism in and of itself isn't what I have a problem with; it's frequently warranted. What I do take issue with, however, is continuing to insist that there must be more even after taking a second/third/fourth look at the situation and everything that's come to light in the meantime, and determining on the merits that the evidence mostly, if not completely, vindicates the "majority" position or whatever you'd care to call it. When it comes to the election, pretty much everything that's occurred in the aftermath supports the assertion that its results are legitimate and that those seeking to overturn it aren't acting in good faith; that being the case, it's not unreasonable for the vast majority of voices to echo the available evidence, and certainly not a "conspiracy".

If you or anyone else has a legitimate argument against a prevailing narrative, by all means present it; the thing is, "too many people are saying this" isn't a legitimate argument by itself.

If you see an overwhelming media narrative and say to yourself "this seems almost too cut and dry, I ought to look further into it", that's reasonable. However, assuming not only that such a narrative could be wrong, but must be wrong, no matter what develops along the way, is a different story. Occam's Razor exists for a reason.
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cvaniafan
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

BulletMagnet wrote:
cvaniafan wrote:I am not a "skeptic"
If you refuse to doubt the "official" version of events because you assume that there must be some other, hidden truth that someone is trying to hide, you are by definition a skeptic.

For whatever it's worth, skepticism in and of itself isn't what I have a problem with; it's frequently warranted. What I do take issue with, however, is continuing to insist that there must be more even after taking a second/third/fourth look at the situation and everything that's come to light in the meantime, and determining on the merits that the evidence mostly, if not completely, vindicates the "majority" position or whatever you'd care to call it. When it comes to the election, pretty much everything that's occurred in the aftermath supports the assertion that its results are legitimate and that those seeking to overturn it aren't acting in good faith; that being the case, it's not unreasonable for the vast majority of voices to echo the available evidence, and certainly not a "conspiracy".

If you or anyone else has a legitimate argument against a prevailing narrative, by all means present it; the thing is, "too many people are saying this" isn't a legitimate argument by itself.

If you see an overwhelming media narrative and say to yourself "this seems almost too cut and dry, I ought to look further into it", that's reasonable. However, assuming not only that such a narrative could be wrong, but must be wrong, no matter what develops along the way, is a different story. Occam's Razor exists for a reason.

But I guesse you're confusing me with someone else, I did not state that there was any conspiracy or fraud intentionally hidden by the mass media. I admit I said curious things have happened that may have surprised, don't take this as a statement, and these are not proofs. As I said, the Dems in the 2016 election, including Hillary Clinton, did not hesitate to raise suspicions of fraud about Donald Trump's victory.
What I also said is that there have already been cases in the history of the United States of questionable and controversial electoral victories, everyone knows that, I am not making anything up about it, and these cases explain why these suspicions arose even though there is no solid evidence.
But again, I agree that Trump does NOT have proof and he should not have screwed up his exit with that, the same way the Dems didn't have proof to get him dismissed. I've even heard Nancy Pelosi saying that Trump was probably thinking of using the atomic bomb against his own country, which is completely stupid and needlessly anxiety-provoking. At one point, on both sides, one would have to come back to earth a bit... Then, "skeptical" or whatever, you call me whatever you want. I don't need to judge with adjectives the people I talk to, I mean is it still possible to talk without judging or insulting each other, I hope so.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

cvaniafan wrote:As I said, the Dems in the 2016 election, including Hillary Clinton, did not hesitate to raise suspicions of fraud about Donald Trump's victory.
And as I said, no they did not raise suspicions about "fraud," they pointed to laws put on the books by republican state legislatures designed to disenfranchise poor and minority voters.

Things like voter ID laws where an NRA membership card is fine to vote, but a student ID is not.

These are verifiable claims because they are literally laws on the books.

Whereas the Trump claims have no proof. Which is why their 60+ voter fraud court cases flopped spectacularly, sometimes in front of Trump-appointee judges!

Where are you getting your news?
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

Mischief Maker wrote:
cvaniafan wrote:As I said, the Dems in the 2016 election, including Hillary Clinton, did not hesitate to raise suspicions of fraud about Donald Trump's victory.
And as I said, no they did not raise suspicions about "fraud," they pointed to laws put on the books by republican state legislatures designed to disenfranchise poor and minority voters.

Things like voter ID laws where an NRA membership card is fine to vote, but a student ID is not.

These are verifiable claims because they are literally laws on the books.

Whereas the Trump claims have no proof. Which is why their 60+ voter fraud court cases flopped spectacularly, sometimes in front of Trump-appointee judges!

Where are you getting your news?
https://www.ledevoir.com/monde/etats-un ... l-election
"Hillary Clinton doesn't rule out contesting election results"
"Ms. Clinton made the comments Monday on National Public Radio (NPR).

The former secretary of state is on a tour to promote her book which discusses her failed presidential campaign.

Hillary Clinton said in an interview with the public radio station that she had no doubts that Russian propaganda played a role in her defeat."
Last edited by cvaniafan on Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

Transcript: Hillary Clinton's Full Interview With NPR's Rachel Martin:

https://www.npr.org/2017/09/12/54943006 ... 1419879950
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

Mischief Maker wrote:Where are you getting your news?
It's easy to answer your question: from the moment you multiply the attempts of impeachment because you accuse a Russian influence in the results of an election, it is exactly the same as contesting the legitimacy of an electoral victory. Let's face it, the Dems' attempts of impeachment procedures against Trump lasted for almost all of his term, i.e. for 4 years.
No proof = no impeachment.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

I do not see anything about dead people voting, I do not see anything about voting machines switching votes, I do not see anything about fraud in the vote counting.

If by "fraud" you mean false propaganda, fine.

I disagree that claiming propaganda influenced voter decisions is the same as claiming people's votes were switched/flushed/fabricated.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

Fine, I really don't want to have to come to Hillary's defense, really ever again in my entire life.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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cvaniafan
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

Mischief Maker wrote:I do not see anything about dead people voting, I do not see anything about voting machines switching votes, I do not see anything about fraud in the vote counting.

If by "fraud" you mean false propaganda, fine.

I disagree that claiming propaganda influenced voter decisions is the same as claiming people's votes were switched/flushed/fabricated.
Our answers crossed, I answered you just above: I do not compare the nature of the arguments of the ones and the others, when the legitimacy of an electoral victory is contested in one way or another, the finality remains the same when proven evidence is lacking.
And yes, the Russian influence evoked was clearly qualified as "fraud" since the Dems described it as carefully calculated by Trump's camp.
Last edited by cvaniafan on Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

Buh? How did my reply end up ABOVE your post?
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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cvaniafan
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

Mischief Maker wrote:Buh? How did my reply end up ABOVE your post?
Just a fraud of mine :lol: (..just kidding)
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BryanM
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BryanM »

cvaniafan wrote:these big brothers reduce the vision of the world to Good versus Evil
As described in Manufactured Consent and Hate Inc, this is intentional grooming. It's Evil vs Evil, and even most of that is a complete sham. Where heroic "anti-Trump" #resisters would say the guy's a bad hombre on TV, and then vote in lockstep with him all the way, and suppress votes wherever they can.

He gave them a huge raise and huge ratings. Made their job the easiest it has ever been - just read tweets off his twitter account, they don't even have to get off their couch to fill an hour of TV. Why on earth would you think they don't absolutely love him? It's wrestling my friend. Fake conflict.

Yeah, they're pissed he didn't start any new wars, as every president is required to do. But he tried his best to, damn it!
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BulletMagnet »

cvaniafan wrote:from the moment you multiply the attempts of impeachment because you accuse a Russian influence in the results of an election
Trumps' first impeachment didn't occur based on the reports of the Russian disinformation campaign, because while the Russians obviously wanted Trump elected there was no decisive proof that Trump or his campaign were in on it, and thus no impeachment charges (plenty of publicly-aired suspicions by Democrats, to be sure, but as we found out they were almost certainly well-founded).

What did get Trump impeached the first time around was when he was recorded on tape asking the president of Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden shortly after withholding military aid to the country that Congress had already approved; the reason he wasn't convicted was because a number of Senate Republicans literally got in front of the cameras and declared that they weren't going to vote "guilty" no matter what evidence was presented. Instead they pretended to believe Trump's defense, namely that the entire trial was yet another enormous conspiracy against him; their argument was completely devoid of evidence, but somehow you're comfortable comparing it to what the Dems presented against Trump both then and now? Come on.
Hillary Clinton said in an interview with the public radio station that she had no doubts that Russian propaganda played a role in her defeat.
As was already covered, America's intelligence agencies backed her up on this; again, unless you believe that they were "in on the con" that assertion was completely reasonable.
What I also said is that there have already been cases in the history of the United States of questionable and controversial electoral victories
The only election I recall you specifying is 1960, which is summed up thus on its Wikipedia page:
[Senator Thurston] Morton challenged the results in 11 states, keeping challenges in the courts into mid-1961, but the only result of these challenges was the loss of Hawaii to Kennedy on a recount.
The "irregularities" then, just as now, were minor and inconsequential; the only reason that election's "controversy" stands out at all was because the results were so close. Sorry, but the only reason any observer would believe that there's been so much voter fraud in the past - especially the recent past - that we can't trust current election results is because they've been listening to self-interested shysters like Trump and tuning out literally everyone and everything else.
Then, "skeptical" or whatever, you call me whatever you want. I don't need to judge with adjectives the people I talk to, I mean is it still possible to talk without judging or insulting each other, I hope so.
"Skeptic" wasn't meant as an insult, it was meant as an objectively accurate description of your position.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by cvaniafan »

BulletMagnet wrote:
cvaniafan wrote:Hillary Clinton said in an interview with the public radio station that she had no doubts that Russian propaganda played a role in her defeat.
As was already covered, America's intelligence agencies backed her up on this; again, unless you believe that they were "in on the con" that assertion was completely reasonable.

Okay, so indeed, it is no longer necessary to debate this subject. The situation is very simple:
- on the left we have Hillary Clinton, the embodiment of intellectual honesty, whose theory of Trump and Putin's evil schemes made her lose her election, has not been heard in time (judges corrupted thanks to a too Republican Senate ?);
- on the right we have the racist, populist, totalitarian and Machiavellian Devil Trump who did nothing good during the 4 years of his term and was elected with a massive vote of the russian people... You've got it, I purposely caricature the analysis of all this ;)

That's what I said: there is a “good” and acceptable conspiracy on one side which is repeated in a loop by the mainstream communication even without more sufficient evidence; and there's an evil conspiracy on the other side (aka "skeptics", "conspirators", "populists", "supremacists", etc.)..
Well ok, that's a way of looking at it, but there is not much room left for debate under these conditions

BulletMagnet wrote:
cvaniafan wrote:Then, "skeptical" or whatever, you call me whatever you want. I don't need to judge with adjectives the people I talk to, I mean is it still possible to talk without judging or insulting each other, I hope so.
"Skeptic" wasn't meant as an insult, it was meant as an objectively accurate description of your position.

I know it was not an insult by your side and I was not speaking to you in particular. I was insulted and called a conspirator earlier in this discussion for what I said. I made a general remark, I know it gets rare nowadays, but it would be fine if we could just discuss again without being categorized into one ideology or political side.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BryanM »

> Opens youtube.
> Inside Edition clip on the lady who made the mittens.
> Aw. : )
> Sidebar: Girl, 15, charged with stabbing woman to death in fall river
> Oh. : (

Balances out.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

emphatic wrote:
Mischief Maker wrote:Oh hey, here come the "real progressives" here to say left and right populism are the same thing, and Antifa just might be funded by George Soros, and while they condemn the actions of QAnon you've got to admit they've got a point on several salient issues, and since the neoliberals hate Trump maybe that means minimizing his actions will advance the cause of socialism, and hey have you heard of this exciting new group called the NazBols?

[image snipped]

What could be sadder than doing COINTELPRO shit without being paid?
Nice straw man you've built for yourself.
https://twitter.com/jimmy_dore/status/1 ... 7988765696
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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BryanM
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BryanM »

No group is a monolith. Sure, the guy could be lying. He could also just really, really hate the police and the government. It's not completely impossible. It's one of the selling points of libertarianism: "Don't you hate the police having the divine right of kings over us, and all these freakin' wars they keep starting?" The apocalyptic theming on top of that is only natural since we're literally living through the start of an apocalypse right now.

... is this a Sam Seder thing? The last time I heard about Jimmy Dore in years was a Jacobin article opining his screeching at AOC et el as "fucking frauds" was "unconstructive". Also a comment in it noting he nearly died to boneitis and had his savings wiped out, which is why he takes MFA personally. It's not normal to be this obsessed with a commentator. Charisma parasites have content to fill, and much like how Trump makes it easy, those who aren't interesting to watch or listen to have to rely on others as a crutch.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by ED-057 »

I see word travels fast in the S.S. community (that stands for stockholm syndrome, of course). And so the members hereby affirm their loyalty to the oppressors and agree to continue hating anyone that the MSM told them are bad. Or maybe they just heard the word boogaloo (assuming it is indeed a word) and ran and hid behind Nancy. Isn't it great that the establishment has so many people it can rely on? I'll bet they're still searching for Saddam's WMDs, bless their hearts.

The subsequent interview with the gentleman from WSWS was also interesting, did anyone listen to it?

edit: BTW, according to sources judged to be credible by me, Jimmy's story about troop movements in Syria is really a nothing-burger. Please don't bring out the strawmen saying he was infallible (or any strawmen).
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

For those who don't know, "The Boogaloo Boys" is short for "Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo."

BryanM, I thought you watched Thought Slime. He just had a video about the Boogaloo Boys two weeks ago.

And for the record, my ire at Jimmy Dore is because I used to be a fan in late 2016/early 2017 and he led me into some uncomfortable situations when I was echoing his pro-Assad arguments before I was obligated to check the sources he cited as ironclad proof Assad didn't use chemical weapons and... oh, the article did not at all say what Jimmy said it did. Then shortly after he promoted the Seth Rich conspiracy theory and I checked out. Ironically I rediscovered the Majority Report through Sam's 2016 debate with Jimmy. Thanks, Youtube algorithm!

I think Jimmy Dore is a very talented entertainer, watching his show is like a political rage-gasm, but I also think he's a toxic influence on the left. possibly intentionally. He always promotes the left where it's weakest and viciously attacks it where it's strongest. And this Boogaloo Boys interview is by no means his first foray into Red-Brown alliance territory.
Spoiler
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Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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BryanM
Posts: 6116
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:46 am

Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BryanM »

Of course I wouldn't let a day go by without hitting a new episode of Know Your Fash, when available. I think this entire thing is typical internet hyperventilating - an angry turnip on the internet trying to do any outreach to the right isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I think it's better they listen to a guy who screams it's a moral imperative that we have Medicare For All than someone advocating genocide, and I... guess you... don't? I still don't understand your logic here, do you want to brand them forever with a mark and cancel them forever for having shitty to extremely shitty ideas? That clearly isn't going to be effective at changing the 1 in 500 minds you need to win an election.

It's all very marginal and pointless. There shouldn't be a pathological need to be perfect and right about everything, no one is, and what Dore does isn't a reflection of you as a person.

What would really help your democrats win an election? Getting me that $1,400 check they promised before the week's over.

... maybe it'll help me out when my armpit decides to eat me in the coming decades.
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Mischief Maker
Posts: 4802
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:44 am

Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Mischief Maker »

BryanM wrote:There shouldn't be a pathological need to be perfect and right about everything, no one is, and what Dore does isn't a reflection of you as a person.
This is a continuation of an argument I was having with ED-057 that started with him using Jimmy Dore's #fraudsquad talking points to paint Alexandria Occasio Cortez, seen here skipping the Lady Gaga performance at the Biden Inauguration to stand in solidarity with the Hunts Point Produce Market Strike, as evil and the person standing between you and M4A because she and the squad opted to trade their Pelosi votes for a PAYGO carveout instead of Jimmy's dumb idea of forcing a LOSING M4A vote on the House floor as empty virtue signaling.

I responded with arguments that attacking our strongest ally in government right now was not the smartest strategy to actually achieve M4A, and that you really shouldn't trust the political judgments of Jimmy Dore because he has a terrible record of bad predictions and sloppy analysis. This recent red-brown alliance suggestion of his was an overpowering piece of evidence to that point.

I'm sorry if these arguments seem pointless and upsetting to you, but every once in a while I get private messages from people who didn't want to get involved in this horrible thread themselves, happy that I'm bringing the topic up. I'm doing this for the lurkers.

UPDATE: God Bless Cameo!
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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ED-057
Posts: 1560
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:21 am
Location: USH

Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by ED-057 »

I responded with arguments that attacking our strongest ally in government
Problem: your unsubstantiated belief that uniparty politicians are your ally
This recent red-brown alliance suggestion of his was an overpowering piece of evidence
Problem: your unsubstantiated belief that large portions of your fellow citizenry can't possibly be your ally, even temporarily
proof Assad didn't use chemical weapons
Problem: your... failure to recognize a blatant regime-change operation and ignorance of what OPCW whistleblowers testified on?

Pattern: uncritical acceptance of the establishment narrative

I don't think billionaires should use my tax money for mass murder overseas. I don't think they should train CIA death squads, build torture camps, bailout their friends, or put 2 million Americans in prison. I think the people should tell the billionaires to get lost. I can't see what part of this is unreasonable. But I am continually faced with the S.S. crowd saying "Nah, we have to keep voting for the lizards(*), or else the wrong lizards could get in." This was already a joke 40 years ago, and people are still unironically saying it. What has voting for the lizards gotten you so far? Made much progress in 40 years, have you?

(*) FYI, "lizards" refers to a metaphor from Douglas Adams, it's not code for alien infiltrators, Jewish people, mutants, or whatever other wrongness you kids were imagining.
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Giest118
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 1:50 am

Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Giest118 »

I just spoke with President Joe Biden, I was completely floored when he said he is:

-Pro LGBTQ
-Pro Black Lives Matter
-Anti Police Brutality
-Anti Racism
-Anti ICE
-Anti War

WTF?!?

President of the United States Seeks Unity With The Left.
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