Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Iran War. When.

2021
3
6%
2022-2025
15
28%
2026-2030
7
13%
2031-2040
3
6%
2041-2050
0
No votes
Never
25
47%
 
Total votes: 53

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BryanM
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by BryanM »

Shieeet. On one hand 10 mil seems super cheap to flood and saturate twitter and the reddit politics board. On the other hand, considering how (non) effective it was, maybe not...
All I am saying is that the narrative of corporate control of politicians is way too simple an analysis. Obviously we have to reduce the influence but overstating it actually hurts your cause by making you look less objective.
lol "overstate"

99% of the Senate are on the dole.

They'd have long ago cut social security and medicare, if the idea weren't about as popular as pedophilia with Dem and Rep voters alike.
A good example is ad hominem attacks on anyone who doesn't share an exact opinion. Eventually both sides just accuse the other of being biased without going into the finer details of the issue.
It's fine if you support separating kids from their families, continuing to accelerate the fallout of global warming, continuing to support decreasing effective median wages, etc etc. Continuing to support a ruling class that only benefits the top 10% - and even then only really about 15 people in the country to any notable degree. Some of us think the status quo is monstrous, some of us think it's awesome and cool.

However you can't Lisa Simpson your way into convincing anyone that things are goin' great with a tricky rube goldberg argument. It's nowhere near as complicated as you're desperately trying to portray. The current system has goals. Goals that it's accomplishing near 100%. The only problem in the world, in their view, is that we're running out of defenseless countries to invade. (Thus why the pressure for the Iran war and on South America is ramping up.) Goals are the core matter of material politics. Power is the means by which goals are accomplished. What goals to have, and how to acquire power are the entirety of politics.

Literally the only other problem in the world for them (and I guess you, since you say you're on their team) is that Bernard Sanders might improve the democratic party slightly. The last thing in the world you guys want is a democratic party good enough to win elections.



(The people who gasp and go "how uncouth!" when stuff like Pelosi rips a sheet of paper in half on TV have to be the saddest folk on the planet. Do they not know joy at all? Do they have blood pumping through their veins, or are they some kind of lifeless undead? You're supposed to groan and go "how laaaame..." at the kayfabe...)
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OdiousTrident
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by OdiousTrident »

BryanM wrote:
Shieeet. On one hand 10 mil seems super cheap to flood and saturate twitter and the reddit politics board. On the other hand, considering how (non) effective it was, maybe not...
All I am saying is that the narrative of corporate control of politicians is way too simple an analysis. Obviously we have to reduce the influence but overstating it actually hurts your cause by making you look less objective.
lol "overstate"

99% of the Senate are on the dole.

They'd have long ago cut social security and medicare, if the idea weren't about as popular as pedophilia with Dem and Rep voters alike.
A good example is ad hominem attacks on anyone who doesn't share an exact opinion. Eventually both sides just accuse the other of being biased without going into the finer details of the issue.
It's fine if you support separating kids from their families, continuing to accelerate the fallout of global warming, continuing to support decreasing effective median wages, etc etc. Continuing to support a ruling class that only benefits the top 10% - and even then only really about 15 people in the country to any notable degree. Some of us think the status quo is monstrous, some of us think it's awesome and cool.

However you can't Lisa Simpson your way into convincing anyone that things are goin' great with a tricky rube goldberg argument. It's nowhere near as complicated as you're desperately trying to portray. The current system has goals. Goals that it's accomplishing near 100%. The only problem in the world, in their view, is that we're running out of defenseless countries to invade. (Thus why the pressure for the Iran war and on South America is ramping up.) Goals are the core matter of material politics. Power is the means by which goals are accomplished. What goals to have, and how to acquire power are the entirety of politics.

Literally the only other problem in the world for them (and I guess you, since you say you're on their team) is that Bernard Sanders might improve the democratic party slightly. The last thing in the world you guys want is a democratic party good enough to win elections.



(The people who gasp and go "how uncouth!" when stuff like Pelosi rips a sheet of paper in half on TV have to be the saddest folk on the planet. Do they not know joy at all? Do they have blood pumping through their veins, or are they some kind of lifeless undead? You're supposed to groan and go "how laaaame..." at the kayfabe...)
You keep accusing me of an agenda I don't have when I'm only trying to clarify yours. I don't support a single thing you just accused me of. This is exactly the problem I am trying to convey to you guys. We have the very problematic status quo because the arguments against it are bogged down by people who don't want get into details (I'm not talking about anyone here necessarily). Instead of saying there is unfair influence on politicians we say they are totally corrupt and on the take. Instead of spending real money on academic research to counter the lobbyists' expensively researched arguments we throw out ad hominems. I'm just tired of it.

Pelosi should have ripped that paper in half btw. Separate issue.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by quash »

This election is so lame compared to the last one. 2020 is Enter The Matrix to 2016's Matrix: pretty similar in some ways, but you already know the important parts and the special effects just aren't as impressive as they were a few years prior.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by BryanM »

Yeah the whole thing... feels like a mulligan, like we're waiting for the election we should have had in 2016.
OdiousTrident wrote:We have the very problematic status quo because the arguments against it are bogged down by people who don't want get into details
Nah, we have a status quo because the people who have all the power, have all the power. In theory we're supposedly able to acquire massive change quickly through a sitting president that can substantially change their party in a very short amount of time. We'll see how that goes; the last time it was ever arguably for the better was FDR.

Persuasion is composed of a few basic techniques and factors:

* Goals (Shattered claimed the Clinton campaign struggled to articulate why she was running as anything besides "I want to be president.")

* Trust (Sanders can say he has a goal of setting the minimum wage to $15, everyone believes him. Some think the crazy bastard would go as high as $30 if he could. Then Clinton can say she has the same goal, and nobody believes her. There's no argument or trick in the world that could change that opinion - the history and motivations of these two actors are an open book over an entire lifetime.)

* Bullshitting (Trump claiming to be on both sides of everything that wasn't a sacred cow to his followers was some of the most magnificent bullshit I've seen in my life.)

* Compliments / Pandering (Whenever Sanders calls Trump the "worst president of all time" is definitely pandering to reactionary liberals. He and we all know that's farcical; we just had George W. Bush. Andrew Jackson raped his slaves and then enslaved his own children. His genocide of the natives was also pretty big, proportionally to the population of the time. Trump's competition is pretty fierce.)

* Propaganda (There is an ocean of speculation on the life and death of Jeffrey Epstein; the theory he was a CIA-funded honeypot is as realistic as any other. However that isn't propaganda, as it doesn't quickly and effectively construct a specific phantasmal world in the mind: "Epstein didn't kill himself" gets it done.)

Anyway, technocratic details are always the most least stable of things whenever they make contact with reality. And absolute suicide to spend your five minutes on TV on. I can get not wanting your intelligence insulted or how mind numbingly repetitive these "debates" are. They should be mind numbing - they're 10 people giving five minute long sales pitches in an elevator. Desperate that the viewers will remember anything about them at all. They're not Ross Perot's infomercials or a book. You'd get infinitely more out of watching a candidate talk to Joe Rogan for an hour than that crap on TV.

"Go read theory" is the least useful advice when it comes to acquiring power electorally, as anyone who actually reads Capital is probably already sold or at least interested in the idea of democracy in the workplace. The only other reason to read something like Utopia for Realists is if you're an oligarch and you want to co-opt and crush such a world before it can be made manifest.

...........Someone's family member dying because they were too afraid of a large medical bill, that is far more motivating than all the words in the world.
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orange808
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by orange808 »

The condescending "you just don't understand" line gets old after a while. That might be why I asked you to stop quoting me.

And, it's not an ad hominem. You aren't being attacked. You are a neoliberal. That's reality.

Neoliberals once wore the name with pride. Neoliberals themselves decided to adopt the term--to describe themselves. It's your word. It's not unfair to frame your political agenda with the term your peers self-adopted.

It's curious that neoliberals refuse to wear their own label with pride. Maybe that's because the entire enterprise is built on misdirection and deception.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by OdiousTrident »

I don't think ad hominem is an attack either. I guess I misspoke. To be clear I believe the following:

1. Taking money from corporate interests does not delegitimize all the potential positive good that politicians can make. We would be living in (insert hopelessly corrupt country with lower living standards here) if that was the case.

2. Corporate funding of politicians has damaged progressive change but not as much as an inequality in research funding has. If we crowdfunded large studies without fear of what we find we would overwhelm the lobbyists with facts alone. It doesn't matter how much people hate economists... we have to convince them and one poll I saw stated only 17% supported progressive tax plans (I cannot find the study offhand sorry).

3. Bernie is presenting some very important proposals alongside some potential oversteps in government power that have not been suggested in real democracies since forever if we are not counting Corbyn's campaign in UK. Just like corporate donations... this fact does not delegitimize his presidential campaign but does raise some questions.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by BryanM »

I think it's kind of neat how "neoliberal" refers to the bipartisan consensus between D's and R's on economic issues during the Clinton-era corporate revolution, while "neoconservative" refers to their bipartisan consensus on the use of force. They're basically synonyms for our current ruling class, the "new world order" firmly established in the late 80's/early 90's.

The fellows over at Enough_Sanders_Spam (Not to be confused with EnoughSandersSpam, which is angry that there isn't enough Sanders spam. It's similar to how easy it is to confuse TheDonald and The_Donald) are deeply shook. Their mods are proactively going out and banning people who don't even post in their postboard... just to try to make themselves feel better between their maniacal sobbing I guess. It makes sense that feeling like they have power over other people, no matter how petty or illusionary, is a core terminal goal of theirs.

Anyway. It's... afraid.
OdiousTrident wrote:1. Taking money from corporate interests does not delegitimize all the potential positive good that politicians can make.
Yes it does.

The only reason the first world still retains social welfare systems is because we're the head of the empire - house servants to the like of Haiti's field slaves as it were. The bare minimum is provided to acquire consent for the system. Hungry peasants result in revolution in a matter of days, gotta keep just enough of them fed and happy to maintain stability.

They're still cutting social security, medicare, and the minimum wage. Just slowly and passively through inflation and other steadily increasing economic rents.
2. If we crowdfunded large studies without fear of what we find we would overwhelm the lobbyists with facts alone.
lololollllllllagasm

Yeah, that's what'll it take to change a politician's mind: we just need to figure out the PERFECT set of sentences, and then mail it to their office! That'll be way more convincing than the $millions being shoved into their pockets.

lolol imagine having all of recorded history at one's finger-tips and thinking logical essays are how you can convince the ruling class to stop acting in their own interests.
3. alongside some potential oversteps in government power that have not been suggested in real democracies since forever
lolol now we know you're joking.

We just fucking assassinated another country's general. One we're not at war with. There are no fucking rules anymore. Anyone clinging to decorum is akin to one of those maniacs that sits around inside a burning house.

You do come across as being frightened that Bloomberg, Bezos, a few Waltons, Koch, Gates and about 6 more people will have their personal wealth soft-capped to around 25 billion. Why are you so invested in seeing the first world's trillionaire be born? (aka, the primordial moneygod the cultists of Moloch worship.)
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

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Image

LFG
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orange808
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by orange808 »

What time is it, Flava?

Time to get sacked! 30 years too late, but it's about time!

:)
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OdiousTrident
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by OdiousTrident »

BryanM wrote: Yeah, that's what'll it take to change a politician's mind: we just need to figure out the PERFECT set of sentences, and then mail it to their office! That'll be way more convincing than the $millions being shoved into their pockets.

lolol imagine having all of recorded history at one's finger-tips and thinking logical essays are how you can convince the ruling class to stop acting in their own interests.
Anyone paying close attention to the political process knows that actual logic backed by quality research has more weight than money. This is the core fallacy of conspiracy theorists. Read the study I linked or don't and claim they've been bought out too. Unfair influence is not the same as control. It's really that simple but not quite simple enough for everyone.

Inequality in research funding may arguably equate to a type of "control." That is another conversation.
BryanM wrote:
You do come across as being frightened that Bloomberg, Bezos, a few Waltons, Koch, Gates and about 6 more people will have their personal wealth soft-capped to around 25 billion. Why are you so invested in seeing the first world's trillionaire be born? (aka, the primordial moneygod the cultists of Moloch worship.)
I think it really sucks that our economy is reliant on a few people (although it's thousands more than the group you just described). If Bernie's revolution doesn't sit in various courts for many years (which is high likelihood) then we run some real risks.

Any single person who has more than 16 mil in the bank will be possibly paying more money to the govt. than they make in total per year (income, dividends, capital gains). I consider this unethical and not necessary for a successful progressive agenda... but it is also dangerous. This will cause them to take a variety of radical steps that could go in any direction. Do not pretend you know what is going to happen to the US economy. No one does... but the experts are worried. I am hoping to that Bernie freeing up lots of capital for the average consumer will be so good for the economy that we can weather the storm. No one knows.

A recession (depression?) linked to the Sanders presidency will damage our chances of getting a democrat in the White House for 2024. When it comes to climate change this is the long game we have to consider. Polarization does not often lead to long term progress.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by BryanM »

Tomorrow is gonna be some degree of crazy.

It remains to be seen if they've consolidated behind Biden early enough or not.
Anyone paying close attention to the political process knows that actual logic backed by quality research has more weight than money.
Yeah, that's why they didn't do anything about climate change and now it's too late. Logic and facts.
conspiracy theorists unethical Polarization progress not necessary dangerous worried possibly (keyword for "this is a lie and I know it")
ok I'm disengaging too. You continue worrying about 15 billionaires and their immediate lackeys, and I'll continue thinking that they're probably gonna scrape by somehow.

As opposed to the people we liquefied into gelatin. I don't think that they're gonna make it, which I find "unethical".
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

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OdiousTrident wrote:Any single person who has more than 16 mil in the bank will be possibly paying more money to the govt. than they make in total per year (income, dividends, capital gains).
I would love to know where you got this nugget from.

(Off to the side, a quick Googling tells me that the cutoff for the top 1% in terms of total net worth in the USA is a bit over 10 mil, and that includes home equity, so even if what you say has a grain of truth to it we're already talking a minuscule portion of the population here, and even then I imagine we're assuming, for whatever reason, that they're not hiding a great deal of their holdings from the IRS...which, if you let your imagination run wild, just might be a noteworthy part of what allowed them to accumulate so much in the first place.)

EDIT: By the by, if you're talking about a theoretical tax on wealth as opposed to income, allow me to remind you that the 1 percent currently control 40 percent of our total wealth (and nearly half of that is concentrated in the top tenth of one percent); again, even assuming that your previous assertion is accurate to some degree, you seem to concede that the present state of affairs is "unfortunate", so just how much do you think that focusing completely on "growing the pie" - i.e. what we've already been doing all this time - is going to help remedy this?
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by Mischief Maker »

OdiousTrident wrote:Any single person who has more than 16 mil in the bank will be possibly paying more money to the govt. than they make in total per year (income, dividends, capital gains).
I don't think you understand how marginal tax rates work.

Here's a pretty lady to explain it to you.

Now ask yourself who put the ridiculous idea in your head that rich people are paying more money in taxes than they make, and why they mislead you.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

BulletMagnet wrote:and even then I imagine we're assuming, for whatever reason, that they're not hiding a great deal of their holdings from the IRS...which, if you let your imagination run wild, just might be a noteworthy part of what allowed them to accumulate so much in the first place.)
It shocks you to see it.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by orange808 »

Breaking news:
If you can't get on and stop asking for sensibility, we'll be forced to go to the Supreme Court and amend our janky, overpriced, and cruel health system into something much worse! Vote Biden or we'll stop protecting what's left of the middle class!

Are you working class? No worries, mate! Just think of the poor children! Not yours, of course. (This doesn't involve common trash like you.) We're talking about special children that will shape the future, here! Be reasonable and compromise! You trade in any hope if you get sick and we will keep things as they are! How can you refuse that offer?
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

It's happening and Bryan called this forever ago didn't he? Welp.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by Mischief Maker »

Holy shit did this video of Warren not age well:

https://youtu.be/HIYMzKONMHM

Look at her now. Taking SuperPAC money, stabbing her friend in the back, and wasting her donations on running a spoiler campaign to deliver the nomination to Biden, whose awful bankruptcy bill was supposedly the reason for her getting involved in politics in the first place.

So this is what it feels like when your favorite celebrity lets you down.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by orange808 »

Steamflogger Boss wrote:It's happening and Bryan called this forever ago didn't he? Welp.
Biden has zero chance of winning the general.

There's a chilling awful dark humor in this: watching biscuits voting for Christmas.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by Mischief Maker »

orange808 wrote:Biden has zero chance of winning the general.
Jesus Christ, who are these morons who can't see with their own eyes the man's going senile? Right now!
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by BryanM »

The electorate was never going to move off television in time unfortunately : / Consolidating two days before d-day was all they needed.

Now that Trump has been reelected for the next eight years, I'll leave the politics thread as-is until New York drives a stake through the campaign next month. Trumpers - go ahead and gloat during that time and leave us your stories about how the legislation and executive orders of this administration have improved your life, personally.

Then we'll transition into the Ghostbusters thread - all the life and energy in this thing has been drained dry, thread's been dead for a year, and there's nothing new to discuss. So uh, get your Ghostbusters fanfiction, essays and fanart ready for that I guess.

Mischief - remember when I said that Warren was basically the same person as Hillary Clinton, and that her job was to help Biden? It always drove me crazy how guys like Seder and TYT would bend themselves into pretzels to praise and make excuses for her, while Tulsi, who is at worst 90% as bad as Warren is, just gets thrown dismissively into the trash can as human garbage by them. From the dooming threads I hear that Sam is still entertaining the absolute fantasy that she might dropout and endorse Sanders. I hope you understand a bit more why I loathe these avatars of lesser-evilism.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

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Mischief Maker wrote:
orange808 wrote:Biden has zero chance of winning the general.
Jesus Christ, who are these morons who can't see with their own eyes the man's going senile? Right now!
He has been absolutely painful to watch (about as painful as the youtube video linked in your previous post). This will make for some riveting debates with Trump I'm sure. :roll:
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by BryanM »

Mischief Maker wrote:Jesus Christ, who are these morons who can't see with their own eyes the man's going senile? Right now!
Party loyalists don't care. He's next in line, and their friends on TV sure do like him a lot. The TV talks to them more than anyone else in their life does.

That's among the ones who don't have dementia themselves.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by Mischief Maker »

The CFPB isn't nothing, and I thought she'd have brains enough to know she already burned the bridge with Wall Street and was trapped in the progressive lane. I massively underestimated that woman's stupidity.

I wanna blame it on the Kamala consultants. At the start she had a policy-oriented campaign that was calling for things like government manufacture of affordable generic drugs, something to the left of Sanders. But then Kamala quit, Warren hired her consultants, and suddenly her campaign dropped the plans and became all about selfies and giant inflatable dogs.

Image

Welp! Time to start stockpiling crossbows, hair dye, and spiked leather chaps for the coming climate apocalypse.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by BryanM »

That's my point though - she's not stupid, she's always been a Reaganite whose #1 concern was Elizabeth Warren. It's all her life has ever been in service of. Like I said before, the knifing was clearly telegraphed for all to see as soon as she said she wanted their money and wouldn't say a single word against Joe Manchin, last year.



* I actually do think she's stupid in various subjective metrics, but not in a "she's actively fucking herself over" kind of way.
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by Mischief Maker »

I wish someone linked that video sooner.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

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She was a republican until she was 47. It raised a red flag with me, to put it mildly, and I probably put more time into probing her history than you did. Nobody has enough time or energy to know everything. People like TYT, Seder, Reich* praising her always felt like a disservice to the movement to me.

AOC worries me since she's so unvetted - unlike Sanders and Warren there isn't a long history to look back on to know if she's real or a fraud like Obama. (Thanks for tonight, Obama.) If she walks into the White House in 2024, I can't say what things will be like from this point of time. I do know her twitter account isn't really posting anything resembling camaraderie today.



* Rob did it just a few days ago! lol
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

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Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

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Re: 2020 (D) Presidential Primary

Post by chempop »

I gotta hand it to em, very clever to get two 'likable candidates' (Pete & Amy) to generate momentum for Biden without actually having to put Joe out there. They still have another line of defense too with Bloom and Warren's endorsement.

Feeling a bit frustrated that my home state (which was an expected Bernie victory) couldn't even turn out a win. I thought young voters would bring in the numbers this time arround, oh well.
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