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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:14 pm 


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the more I play armored core the more I feel like souls is almost AC x king's field.


are V/VD worth picking up now just for the single player? I'm still loving for answer. currently on chapter 3 and struggling to find a load out I like for my mech. I was using a sniper cannon and insane damage punch thing that I can't remember the name of on my right side + a bazooka or assault rifle or gatling gun on my left but the missions I'm up to have really fast AC's which are just wrecking me. specifically red rum and starka and wis in the arena are kicking my butt.

I think my main issue is I still suck at controlling my mech, so I'm struggling to break their lock while keeping them on my screen.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:14 pm 


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if you enjoy doing missions on S rank, i guess.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:26 am 


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Blinge wrote:
You said "It's not a bad game by any means." Okay bro. It wasn't the game for you, that's okay. time to move on.


God, I always know that this statement is coming. It's as if you can't be critical of things you like anymore. Either it's the greatest thing ever bar none or it's an irredeemable pile of shit.

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That being said, there's a reason the majority of internet calls it an action RPG. It is that hybrid, you don't need to rely solely on your MLG PRO ninja Gaiden action game skills if you don't want to. You can just cheese the stats; increase the strength of your avatar to make the game easier, rely on OP magic/ pyro and cheese enemies from a distance.


"Action RPG" makes no sense at all, and we both know where Dark Souls drew its inspiration for combat. Call it pedantry if you want, but there really is no better classification for Dark Souls than 3D action. If anything, you could tack "stat based" onto that for a more accurate description, but tossing around "RPG" like that is a disservice to everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:31 am 


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I dunno, Dark Souls always struck me as more of a "true" rpg then most games that get called by the title. The emphasis on character creation, atmosphere, interaction with other players, and personal interpretation of lore, etc. makes me feel like the game is more about actual "role playing" then any turn based fighter.

Of course genre distinctions are worthless semantics anyway so who cares.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:43 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
If I had to put it on a scale of 1 to 10, with Kirby's Adventure being a 1 and DOJ 2-all being a 10, I'd probably give it a healthy 6 or 7. Above average difficulty for the medium, at least.


Sure. But a 6 or a 7 is still pretty damn far from even most recent 3D action games from Japan on their hardest difficulties. It's still not as hard as a good number of PS2 action games, even. Back to my original point: for a lot of people, this was their first time playing a game above a 3-4 in years.

I agree that Dark Souls offers strengths in other areas, particularly in presentation and online interaction. I just don't think it adds up to "best game evar" or anywhere near it. It's good, with no major issues, but it falls short of the best games in its most closely related genre.

Squire Grooktook wrote:
It's worth mentioning that the success of games like Ikaruga and Dark Souls were not simply lucky breaks fueled by egoism.


Indeed, most game developers know when the right combination of marketing and mechanical simplicity will attract people who are otherwise uninterested in a genre. The problem is that people are not branching out and learning more about these genres; they are sticking to what they got started on without knowing or appreciating the genre beyond that. Which is a large part of the reason why we see such inane comparison from game developers now ("SFV is like Third Strike", "*insert game here* is like Dark Souls", etc) as a cynical marketing ploy. Whether or not the game actually is like what it's being compared to is irrelevant, because both outcomes are both basically as bad.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:51 am 


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quash wrote:
I just don't think it adds up to "best game evar" or anywhere near it. It's good, with no major issues, but it falls short of the best games in its most closely related genre.


That's the thing though. DS is really in a style and genre of its own. I don't think you can really say it "falls short" compared to closely related genres. It's like saying Smash Bros Melee falls short compared to Street Fighter, because (whether you agree with some criticisms or not) Smash is just so unique that you really have no other options for that kind of fighting game experience. Or maybe it's even more of a stretch then that comparison since those games are at least decisively in the same genre. I think part of the reason Souls is so charming is because it's really a one-of-a-kind experience.

quash wrote:
Indeed, most game developers know when the right combination of marketing and mechanical simplicity will attract people who are otherwise uninterested in a genre.


As an amateur game developer myself, this is certainly to be respected though. It's not easy getting something to appeal to a sizable number of people. Even outright trying to dumb down something (let alone making it work without dumbing things down!) often doesn't net you the audience you want. Everyone wants to make big bucks and become popular, but few do, even when they're as cynical as can be.

Of course luck and timing is also a factor, but getting the perfect game with the perfect timing is no mean feat.
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Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:54 am 


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I think you're missing the point by comparing dark souls to games like ninja gaiden and bayonetta. the exploration is what makes dark souls great.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:55 am 


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I'd argue it's more then just that, though that's part of it. There's a lot of things going on in Souls, really. The fact that we could argue and debate about what genre it really belongs in (third person action, rpg, action-rpg, 3d adventure) probably says a lot on that front.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:57 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I'd argue it's more then just that, though that's part of it. There's a lot of things going on in Souls, really.


well, yeah. I agree. but exploration is such a huge factor in souls and it's completely absent in NG etc. it makes comparing them feel pretty pointless.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:15 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
That's the thing though. DS is really in a style and genre of its own.


It's a stat based 3D action game that took some elements from dungeon crawlers. The character development isn't nearly where it needs to be to be considered an RPG in any sense of the word.

Though obviously you can't argue that it didn't create its own style, because it did. The question is how this style measures up against what was established before it. Compared to the best 3D action games, I would say it is simply good. Compared to the best dungeon crawlers, I would also peg it as good. So good + good = great? I guess that depends on just how good you think it is.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:27 am 


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quash wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
That's the thing though. DS is really in a style and genre of its own.


It's a stat based 3D action game that took some elements from dungeon crawlers. The character development isn't nearly where it needs to be to be considered an RPG in any sense of the word.


I dunno, compare it to almost any dungeon crawler on nes to ps1 (maybe even most ps2 dungeon crawlers) and you certainly have a lot more control over stats and builds, which are balanced pretty interestingly. I guess the job system in FF5 has more options, and a few other similar games.

I'd also say that if you compare it Metroidvania's (other action based exploration games, which are similar in many ways), it comes off as the best of the best. I like it a lot better then Super Metroid or SOTN in almost every regard ('cept maybe music in SOTN's case). Those games are 2d, but Souls feels more like a classic Metroidvania to me more then anything 3d, which is probably another way in which it's unique.

I tend not to compare things in that regard anyway though. For me the closest combat engine I can compare Souls to is Castlevania Bloodlines or Akumajo Dracula x68, since (despite being 2d) those have more comparable fighting styles and "feel" then anything else I can think of (emphasis on player vulnerability, methodical action, and heavy commitment to all attack and mobility options). I don't really think of already high quality games as "better" then others high quality games. They're all just different, and whether I'm feeling the itch for Classicvania combat or Contra combat really depends on my mood more then anything else.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:54 am 


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You think the closest relatives to Dark Souls are... 2D Metroidvanias? Nevermind that it basically took the 3D NG template for combat, slowed it down a bit and added stats? It still somehow "feels" 2D to you?

The only thing Metroidvania about it is that you're given a free-roaming map that you have to navigate though on your own.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:09 am 


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quash wrote:
Nevermind that it basically took the 3D NG template for combat, slowed it down a bit and added stats? It still somehow "feels" 2D to you?


I know it sounds crazy, but it really feels to me like the particular ethos of those games fighting style and design is what fuels Souls more then anything else.

(also for the record, I'm NOT talking about the metroidvanias when it comes to combat design. Bloodlines and x68 are completely linear and have completely different combat mechanics.)

I know Ninja Gaiden also has non-cancellable player attacks, but before Ninja Gaiden, the absolute pinnacle of heavy commitment based combat (IMO) was the arcade-stye, classic (non-Metroidvania) Castlevania games. Every attack and movement option has lengthy start up and cool down, and players had to play careful footsies games with enemies and bosses to avoid striking at the wrong time and eating an already active enemy poke. There's a sense of vulnerability to those games, almost like a kind of proto-survival horror where the player can't simply dance around enemy attacks and will get cornered and eaten alive if they don't respect the speed and reach of the beasts. Unlike Survival Horror though, it's deep, skillfull, and viscerally satisfying. This to me is the "experience" that Souls combat channels, and what I don't get from Ninja Gaiden, DMC, or whatever 3d action game you've mentioned.

The Gothic horror aesthetic in both games works well with it.

The increased speed in games like Ninja Gaiden, and other 2d and 3d games where you can't cancel attacks into safety/evasion options, lessons the sense of vulnerability to me. They still have the footsies games, but they're more like evenly matched duels then a Hunter trying to outwit a stronger beast. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they feel "different" and scratch a different itch.

Mechanically similar? Maybe not. Souls is 3d, and classic CV didn't have stamina meters. But in terms of playstyle, design, and ethos or "feel", I feel that Souls combat engine is a spiritual successor to those games more then anything else. Even if not intentionally. Beyond the craftsmanship of gameplay polish, every type of gameplay is trying to simulate something in the end. Create a specific kind of fantasy for the player to explore. And to me, Classic CV and Souls combat are aimed at similar kinds of experiences.

quash wrote:
The only thing Metroidvania about it is that you're given a free-roaming map that you have to navigate though on your own.


To me, it's the balance of tight, semi-linear areas that need to be fought through, vs exploration, alternate paths, and revisiting previous areas. The only thing it's really lacking to be a true metroidvania are items which give you new abilities, which allow you to reach out of reach areas in revisited areas.

In Souls games and Metroidvania's, things are generally pretty linear (and therefore tight, as intended) and many areas feel more like "stages" then big open worlds. Unlike the stages in a linear action game though, there are alternate paths in the "stages", but these are short (unlike a true free roaming world) and either lead to items and such, or simply a slightly different route to the end of the area/"stage" (the boss). It still gives a feeling of exploration, but not enough to break the "tightness" of the stage design. Like Metroidvania's, you also revisit previously explored "stages", in order to reach new areas with new items you've obtained (usually keys). It's just that they don't actually give you new abilities.

At any rate, the style of exploration and gameplay in Souls feels much closer to a metroidvania then say, Elder Scrolls. Can't say I've played much that feels as close in 3d, outside of the actual Metroid Prime games (and Souls is way better then those anyway, imo).
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:16 am 


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Demon's Souls doesn't feel like much of a dungeon crawler* to me. I found the exploration** most reminiscent of Thief 1&2 (neither TPP, nor even fighting games) and the combat engine - of Monster Hunter (their enemies aren't much alike, though; just how playable dude reacts to my actions reminds me of MH).
What sets Souls' combat most apart from the majority of singleplayer action-adventures, to me, is the focus on PvsP (that is - most enemies fight like bots in terms of their physical abilities and moveset). Although a similar design philosophy can be found in Way of the Samurai*** and Gothic, so it's not all new, only unique.

*) To put it simply, the original Diablo is one for my money, but Diablo II isn't.

**) Not mechanically of course, but architecturally - I mean the way stages/worlds are put together, all branching routes, "secrets" and shortcuts.

***) Who had a chance to play WotS training PvsP? I only practised vs CPU.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:45 am 


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Though Souls' combat moveset is larger than in MH - you have about 10-12 actions while in mh it's 4-5
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:46 am 


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quash wrote:
Nevermind that it basically took the 3D NG template for combat, slowed it down a bit and added stats?


This is tunnel vision, and the problem with your whole argument really. You can't conceive that the games' inspiration came from anywhere else than a series you have a preoccupation with.
This ignores FromSoft's history of developing slower paced action RPGs like King's Field. You ignore how similar the lock on system/combat is to 3D Zelda (non-cancelable attacks also). The phrase 'Zelda for grownups' has been thrown about before; i'm not saying it's right, but it is missing from your argument.
There are far more obvious examples of influence than a game that looks nothing like it.

quash wrote:
It's a stat based 3D action game that took some elements from dungeon crawlers. The character development isn't nearly where it needs to be to be considered an RPG in any sense of the word.


It has more character development than say, Phantasy Star 2. Which is widely considered to be a good RPG.
Action RPG is a loose, catch-all term for RPGs that use realtime combat. There isn't a better concise description for Soulsborne. In fact, games that were overtly influenced by souls, like Lords of the Fallen, are described as 'Soulslike.' Let that sink in :mrgreen:
Spoiler: show
Also, 'in any sense of the word' is the worst possible thing you could say when arguing genre definitions and the term ROLE PLAYING GAME


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I just don't think it adds up to "best game evar" or anywhere near it.

So what? Has anyone here claimed it's the best? No.
What's the point in whining about people liking stuff more than you. Souls obviously spoke to me in a way that it didn't to you; I imagine the same goes for others, whether you deem their nerd credentials worthy or not.
I'm confident that nobody cares about your points regarding how these mysterious 'other gamers' supposedly aren't branching out.
Does Zelda deserve its huge fanbase? Probably not, but I'm not gonna waste everybody's time bitching about it.

Demon's Souls gathered a lot of traction despite being poorly marketed in the west. In fact, demand for a western release from people already interested in the game was a crucial factor in it ever reaching a Western audience! I don't think you can place the blame on marketing. Mentioned here: https://youtu.be/SnmpiezsnbU?t=6m47s until around 7:55.

I've finished Bayo, and never thought Souls was within the same genre, or anything alike. NG never crossed my mind, nor will I branch out into these barely related genres off the back of souls. I went backwards in time to King's Field; and am interested in similarly grim RPGs. Some of these unnamed souls fanboys that irritate you so much would also have branched out in different directions to your tunnel vision.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:12 pm 


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I'm finally making some progress in the arena in AC:FA after messing about with my mech a lot over the past couple of days and trying out different builds. I'm currently using a dual rifle set up which is admittedly quite boring, but it's working out for me. I'm not quite sure why Wis is ranked so low, it took me a lot of retries to get past him, but the next 5 or 6 went down in the first try. I'm currently rank 18.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:57 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I'd also say that if you compare it Metroidvania's (other action based exploration games, which are similar in many ways), it comes off as the best of the best. I like it a lot better then Super Metroid or SOTN in almost every regard ('cept maybe music in SOTN's case). Those games are 2d, but Souls feels more like a classic Metroidvania to me more then anything 3d, which is probably another way in which it's unique.

It's interesting to see someone else make this comparison; the first time I ever finished Dark Souls 1, my immediate comparison for its structure was "Metroid and Super Metroid glued back-to-back", and when I played Dark Souls 2, about 2/3rds through, I found myself thinking "oh, hey, this is basically the 'Legacy of the Wizard' 3D remake I've wanted for years".

It seems to me that the Souls game family tree comes from two places:
1. World structure and exploration comes from Metroidvanias (particularly the older, less story-driven ones), and some of the more story-light exploration-heavy action jRPGs (such as Xanadu Next, which, in particular, seems to have been a huge influence on the series).

2. Mechanical design mostly comes from the line of action/RPG hybrids starting with Dungeon Master, going through Eye of the Beholder, then Ultima Underworld, then System Shock 1, and then System Shock 2, with the FPS bits of those games ripped out and replaced with bits from 3D Zelda's combat.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:46 pm 


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I must stress here that King's Field II (jp) layout is a similar sort of 'metroidvania' exploration, has real time combat with stats, equipment, both melee and magic..
I don't know about the others.

That's gotta be in the family tree.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:05 pm 


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The KF games are basically UU tributes, so they'd fall under place #2.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:17 am 


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Blinge wrote:
blah blah blah


Too many things wrong to even know where to begin. We can start with the fact that not a single game you listed is an RPG. They're all dungeon crawlers and/or JRPGs, a genre so far removed from role playing that you may as well call them interactive anime.

Regarding King's Field, I have played the games before, and they are basically slightly better Elder Scroll's games. First person, large areas, mediocre combat. I'm glad that From wisened up and ditched the format because it sucks, 3D combat works way better in third person until you start introducing guns.

And then you seem to think that I've somehow never made the connection between Zelda and Dark Souls. Which is funny because there was a brief period of time where I lazily drew the same correlations. Here's the problem: Dark Souls does a bunch of things with its combat that Zelda never had (and likely never will) have the balls to do. To ignore the 15 year gap between OOT and DS is giving DS far too much credit, and to anyone well-versed in 3D action it is obvious as to where DS drew its inspiration.

Enemies in 3D Zelda games are basically setpieces, parts of the environment that are there for you to power through. To compensate, the game puts most of its challenge in puzzles and some bosses. Obviously, this is not the case in Dark Souls; you can very easily die to a random enemy if you play recklessly. The game forces you to learn how to fight to progress, much like 3D action games. It also more or less forgoes puzzles in favor of enemies and level design. You're almost always up against several enemies at once, which usually requires you to default to blocking for non-risky defense.

While we're linking videos nobody's going to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_1P-e-_UBA

This guy is making it look easier than it is, but the slightest mistake can cost him dearly. Look at how he has to position himself to prevent himself from getting screwed. Look at how he defaults to blocking to survive. These enemies are there to kill him and he has to do everything he can to make sure that doesn't happen.

What's the point here? It's pretty simple: the thing that made Dark Souls good (its combat) was built upon established conventions, and while you can trace some elements back to 3D Zelda, there is a huge missing link in between. Ninja Gaiden is that link.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:42 am 


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dungeon crawl is very rpg, unless you're literally talking table top rpg. But dungeon crawls are still probably one of the closest genres you can get to that group story-telling/gameplay hybrid medium of table top gaming within video games. Mostly because their based on the same rules of "simulating" combat and encounters via rules and numbers, compared to directly allowing players skill-based control over characters and actions. Most dungeon crawlers also allow the creation and naming of your own characters, determining their stats, etc. much like a DND campaign or whatever.

RPG seems to have a lot of conflicting definitions these days, I guess it's because of how many new things have happened within the genre over the last few console generations, as well as the convergence of console gamers and pc gamers for whom both their native RPG's are a world apart. "If it doesn't have turn based combat, it's not an rpg!" I've heard shouted on so many forums. Now we have "jrpg's and dungeon crawls are not rpg's", the very bastion of turn based combat engines. It's an interesting debate, but like all discussions of semantics, ultimately falls into the "who gives a fuck" zone.

All that aside, 3d action games advanced a lot during the ps2/xbox-ps3/xbox360 era's, as that was pretty much the birth of 3d "character action" games. I'm sure some peeps at From played NG, but I'm not so sure that Ninja Gaiden is the sole, over-riding influence. It may very well have been a strong one, but to try and get inside developer heads from general gameplay parallels doesn't always work out, I find. I recall too many interviews that tend to go like this

VIDYA GAEM THEORISTZ: Your game feels so much like X game. How much of a major influence was it?
Developer: Oh, actually, I've never played X game. In fact, we began production before X game was even released. I was more inspired by Y game and Z game, as surprising as those games sound.
VIDYA GAEM THEORISTZ: Well shucks.

FromSoft was already establishing certain action game conventions with Otogi before Ninja Gaiden was released, and I'm sure they looked at many, many hack and slash, brawlers, action rpg's, and general action games of the time while deciding how to advance their gameplay. I'm sure everything from Ninja Gaiden to Kingdom Hearts to Devil May Cry was sampled at some point, and I'm sure ideas came from much more then a single source.

But like I said, all that is really irrelevant to me, because Souls combat feels unique to me regardless of what template it was based on or what inspirations it drew from. Of all the action games I've played, Classicvania is still the closest "thematic" parallel in terms of player experience, and Souls is still a dimension apart from it. Ninja Gaiden or whatever else you want to bring up is good, but I can't personally call them better, because they don't give me the same vibe. They're different, is all.

also

quash wrote:
What's the point here? It's pretty simple: the thing that made Dark Souls good (its combat)


As already mentioned, this is extremely arguable and subjective. For many, the combat is just one piece of the puzzle. For others, it's the primary factor. Both are valid, depending on your tastes and what you're looking for. But there's more good to Souls then it's combat, either way.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:17 am, edited 20 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:54 am 


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how you think that video you linked shows that souls combat is more or less copying NG's is absolutely beyond me.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:49 am 


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quash wrote:
You're almost always up against several enemies at once, which usually requires you to default to blocking for non-risky defense.

Eh, that's not necessarily the case. I used a shield for my first trip through Dark Souls 1, but my first time through Dark Souls 2 was dual-wielding or two-handing the whole way (I've literally never used a shield in that game; my second character was all 2-handing strength weapons), and my second playthrough of Dark Souls 1 was 2-handing a Scimitar the whole way, and I didn't encounter anything that was even close to "requiring" blocking.

Honestly, I think that including shields was the biggest mistake of the Dark Souls games; they're way more fun to play without.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:53 am 


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I never found shields all that useful. I had one on hand for the first half of my first playthrough of 1, but by the time I got to Anor Londo, Wood Grain Ring somersault roll + 2 handed katana eclipsed it so utterly that I never even tried to block for all 4 lords + dlc. I think they're a fairly balanced option with strength's and drawbacks, so it's nice to have extra options for playstyles and builds. Don't wanna open up that discussion again though lol.

Bloodborne hates shields though. There's 1-2 in the game, and their descriptions basically tell you that they suck lmao.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: dark souls 4
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:01 pm 


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Khan wrote:
So after 122hrs I completed my first dark souls 2 playthrough and finished at around Sl211 which ive been told is pretty high for play through number 1 but ive always been the type of guy who enjoyed farming and grinding for gear. Sadly I missed Navlans quests since I didnt know that once you pull that damn lever you cannot do them :( I also missed getting sunlight spear since its impossible to co-op in the pc version no one seems to be online and even though ive got my summon sign out on tough bosses such as the smelter demon/the rotton/ruin sentinels no one seems to summon me :(


I don't know why I feel the need to respond to this now as it's a very old post, but I'm going to anyway.....

you were just probably way higher levelled than anyone who was doing the bosses that you had your summon sign down at. only people within a certain range of your soul level will see your sign. you finished the game over 100 levels higher than I was when I finished it. that is insane. I have literally never levelled a character that high in any souls game, even through multiple NG+'s.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:03 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
It's an interesting debate, but like all discussions of semantics, ultimately falls into the "who gives a fuck" zone.


All discussions are semantics. And while the truth of the matter is that genre is ever-evolving, the vast majority of what we called "RPGs" never involved any role playing to begin with. It's a misnomer that doesn't do anyone any good. You can technically make an argument for ANY game being an "RPG" based on the already loose definition we're used to throwing around.

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All that aside, 3d action games advanced a lot during the ps2/xbox-ps3/xbox360 era's, as that was pretty much the birth of 3d "character action" games. I'm sure some peeps at From played NG, but I'm not so sure that Ninja Gaiden is the sole, over-riding influence. It may very well have been a strong one, but to try and get inside developer heads from general gameplay parallels doesn't always work out, I find. I recall too many interviews that tend to go like this


Ninja Gaiden was the first 3D action game to do a lot of things, whether the people at From played it or not is basically irrelevant because virtually every 3D action game after NG (besides the DMC games) used its template for movement, level design and combat.

I played both Otogi games back when they came out: they were as close as you can possibly get to the term "hack-n-slash". Defense was basically a non-element and the games were super easy, though they did look awesome and I liked the destructive environments.

For the record, I've always been a huge FromSoft fan. Ever since I first played AC2 they were a name for me to look out for. I've played at least one game in each series they've made and I respect their creative vision. They're not afraid to take elements from Western games and they usually do a good job with them.

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Of all the action games I've played, Classicvania is still the closest "thematic" parallel in terms of player experience, and Souls is still a dimension apart from it.


I still do not see how Castlevania is even close to Dark Souls. You can I guess argue that the layout of the world is similar to a Metroidvania, but beyond that it's pretty far of a stretch.

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As already mentioned, this is extremely arguable and subjective. For many, the combat is just one piece of the puzzle.


Trust me, there is a reason we are all quietly ignoring the existence of Demon's Souls. Dark Souls does hit a lot of good notes, but if it weren't for the combat being as well balanced as it is, it too would have been quietly ignored.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:09 am 


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Ah, so you believe every 3d action game post-Ninja Gaiden was built off of it as a template. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but I'm not going to argue it.

quash wrote:
I still do not see how Castlevania is even close to Dark Souls. You can I guess argue that the layout of the world is similar to a Metroidvania, but beyond that it's pretty far of a stretch.


When I talk about the combat in CV being thematicly similar to Souls, know that I'm talking about the Classic, Linear CV's. NOT the Metroidvania's. Anyway, I already explained at great length:

Squire Grooktook wrote:
I know it sounds crazy, but it really feels to me like the particular ethos of those games fighting style and design is what fuels Souls more then anything else.

(also for the record, I'm NOT talking about the metroidvanias when it comes to combat design. Bloodlines and x68 are completely linear and have completely different combat mechanics.)

I know Ninja Gaiden also has non-cancellable player attacks, but before Ninja Gaiden, the absolute pinnacle of heavy commitment based combat (IMO) was the arcade-stye, classic (non-Metroidvania) Castlevania games. Every attack and movement option has lengthy start up and cool down, and players had to play careful footsies games with enemies and bosses to avoid striking at the wrong time and eating an already active enemy poke. There's a sense of vulnerability to those games, almost like a kind of proto-survival horror where the player can't simply dance around enemy attacks and will get cornered and eaten alive if they don't respect the speed and reach of the beasts. Unlike Survival Horror though, it's deep, skillfull, and viscerally satisfying. This to me is the "experience" that Souls combat channels, and what I don't get from Ninja Gaiden, DMC, or whatever 3d action game you've mentioned.

The Gothic horror aesthetic in both games works well with it.

The increased speed in games like Ninja Gaiden, and other 2d and 3d games where you can't cancel attacks into safety/evasion options, lessons the sense of vulnerability to me. They still have the footsies games, but they're more like evenly matched duels then a Hunter trying to outwit a stronger beast. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they feel "different" and scratch a different itch.

Mechanically similar? Maybe not. Souls is 3d, and classic CV didn't have stamina meters. But in terms of playstyle, design, and ethos or "feel", I feel that Souls combat engine is a spiritual successor to those games more then anything else. Even if not intentionally. Beyond the craftsmanship of gameplay polish, every type of gameplay is trying to simulate something in the end. Create a specific kind of fantasy for the player to explore. And to me, Classic CV and Souls combat are aimed at similar kinds of experiences.

also
quash wrote:
Trust me, there is a reason we are all quietly ignoring the existence of Demon's Souls. Dark Souls does hit a lot of good notes, but if it weren't for the combat being as well balanced as it is, it too would have been quietly ignored.


I remember when you said that shit about "Demon's Souls has infinite poise" on another thread. Rest assured, it's baloney. Demon's has tons of fans and Dark Souls was only made based on its success and the fact that it sold and got as much popularity as it did. It's also a good game, and you have no idea what you're talking about on that front.
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:17 am 


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Obscura wrote:
Eh, that's not necessarily the case. I used a shield for my first trip through Dark Souls 1, but my first time through Dark Souls 2 was dual-wielding or two-handing the whole way (I've literally never used a shield in that game; my second character was all 2-handing strength weapons), and my second playthrough of Dark Souls 1 was 2-handing a Scimitar the whole way, and I didn't encounter anything that was even close to "requiring" blocking.


I've only played Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, so there's my current frame of reference for this series. I have DS2 for PC and I will get around to it at some point, but until then that's all the experience I have.

While I also figured out that blocking isn't exactly as good as it initially seems in Dark Souls, it's still a nice option to have in the event you misjudge something so badly that you can't otherwise avoid damage. And to anyone on their first playthrough, it is going to be what they default to based on the fact that they don't know the right timings for rolling, parrying, etc. For that reason alone I would say that shields are a good addition to the game, even if they become superfluous the more familiar you get with the game.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:24 am 


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You're the guy who can't tell the difference between a square and a rectangle. I'd be a little less facetious if I were you. It was an exaggeration, but my point was that Demon's Souls didn't make enemies play by the same rules as the player. You can argue against that if you want, but I haven't seen anything in that game that would convince me otherwise.


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