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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:26 am 


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quash wrote:
You're the guy who can't tell the difference between a square and a rectangle. I'd be a little less facetious if I were you. It was an exaggeration, but my point was that Demon's Souls didn't make enemies play by the same rules as the player. You can argue against that if you want, but I haven't seen anything in that game that would convince me otherwise.


But the implication of your statement is factually incorrect

If Demon's Souls had the equivalent* of infinite poise in Dark Souls, that would mean all enemies have hyper armor. Poise is what determines when your own attack animations can be interrupted, so infinite poise = attacks can never be interrupted.

This is false. Most enemies in Demon's Souls can be interrupted by a single hit. There are some large enemies that cannot, but the presence of such enemies is a constant throughout the series.

*Given that poise doesn't actually exist as a numerical stat in Demon's Souls, as far as I know.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:44 am 


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Regarding your parallels between Classicvania and Souls, I still only barely see the connection. You even admit that it's not mechanically similar, so that leaves us with the similarities being slow combat with non cancelable attacks.

I can't see how that is a more important influence than the games that made 3D action work, and allowed a series like Souls to exist in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:50 am 


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quash wrote:
Regarding your parallels between Classicvania and Souls, I still only barely see the connection. You even admit that it's not mechanically similar, so that leaves us with the similarities being slow combat with non cancelable attacks.

I can't see how that is a more important influence than the games that made 3D action work, and allowed a series like Souls to exist in the first place.


Like I said, it's the general experience both games are going for.

Souls is not about pretending to be super skillfull ninja badass super hero, the way you are in NG or DMC or Bayonetta or whatever 3d action game. It's about being a vulnerable human knight faced with grotesque, often borderline (and outright, in one or two of the games) lovecraftian, monsters. You are often outnumbered and often (feel, if not actually) underpowered compared to whatever giant thing your fighting that will tear you in two if it manages to grab you.

You don't get to unleash a flurry of blades or izuna drop your foes or dance around them or air combo them in Souls or Classic Castlevania. You don't get to "look cool". You get to survive if you play like a survivor. This was what set Castlevania apart from contemporaries like Contra, Nes Ninja Gaiden, Strider, Ghouls and Ghosts, etc. back then, and to me it's what sets Souls apart from its own contemporaries. Both games aren't about being fast or flashy, they're about being slow and vulnerable. And being slower then competitors is exactly what makes them great and unique.

The point is, if I want something where the gameplay feels "swordplay + action-horror", I'll play Castlevania for 2d, and Souls for 3d. I'm certainly not playing Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden if I want to get that particular ethos. And there aren't a ton of games that channel a similar vibe to me, 2d or 3d.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:54 am 


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That's all fine and dandy, but you aren't really answering my question. How is that a more significant influence than the games that made 3D combat and level design work? Souls as we know it would not exist if it weren't for them.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:00 am 


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quash wrote:
That's all fine and dandy, but you aren't really answering my question. How is that a more significant influence than the games that made 3D combat and level design work?


I didn't say it was a bigger influence (I think. If I did, that's not quite what I meant), although it's possible that it was an influence, maybe even a major one (we'll never know unless we ask the directors). What I meant was that that's what makes Souls feel, in one way, completely at a right angle to Ninja Gaiden and it's ilk, and that it's one way in which Souls feels far more to me like a spiritual successor to that kind of gameplay then it does to something like NG or any of its ilk.

quash wrote:
Souls as we know it would not exist if it weren't for them.


It probably still would have, honestly.

As good as Ninja Gaiden was, it wasn't some singular destined messiah that forever changed the genre. As I said, the entire genre was evolving and moving forward and these ideas were all floating around in various forms at the time.

It's like saying Bullet Hell wouldn't exist if Cave hadn't formed or made Dodonpachi. Games with smaller hitbox and denser bullet patterns were already floating around, it was just a matter of time till someone scooped up all those rough elements and concepts and crystalized them into a coherent whole. It was bound to happen, sooner or later. Cave just got to 'em first.

At any rate, it does seem apparent at this point, that your entire reason for sticking around in this thread is to argue that Ninja Gaiden is the supreme divine root of all 3d action gaming. It's a bit off topic though. Wouldn't such a conversation be better placed in the Ninja Gaiden thread?
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:13 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
As good as Ninja Gaiden was, it wasn't some singular destined messiah that forever changed the genre.


What 3D action game before Ninja Gaiden had enemies that were actually there to kill you and gave you ways to fight back against them? Serious question, I don't know of one.

I don't see how you can presume that From would've made the same game we got if it weren't for the decade of 3D action games that established how to do things right. There may be nothing like Souls, but that's only because no other series has combined the particular elements from different genres it did.

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It's like saying Bullet Hell wouldn't exist if Cave hadn't formed or made Dodonpachi. Games with smaller hitbox and denser bullet patterns were already floating around, it was just a matter of time till someone scooped up all those rough elements and concepts and crystalized them into a coherent whole. It was bound to happen, sooner or later. Cave just got to 'em first.


Cave is basically the Arc System Works or Platinum of the genre: they took concepts from previous games, combined them, and eventually refined them. Platinum absolutely does use NG as a template for level design and combat, but they also take elements of the DMC games (cancels, dodges, etc.). You should already know what I think of ArcSys and what they did.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:14 am 


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quash wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
As good as Ninja Gaiden was, it wasn't some singular destined messiah that forever changed the genre.


What 3D action game before Ninja Gaiden had enemies that were actually there to kill you and gave you ways to fight back against them? Serious question, I don't know of one.


Any decent 3d action game if it was above your skill level.

Kingdom Hearts killed me a lot back in the day, but you certainly had the tools to fight back against those enemies lol.

I'm sorry but hard + you have tools aren't the narrowest search terms.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:16 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
It's a bit off topic though. Wouldn't such a conversation be better placed in the Ninja Gaiden thread?


Sure. We can move the past few posts there, no issue with that.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:17 am 


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I'd be interested to hear what Iconoclast thinks about all this. I'm not sure how much he plays DMC or some other pre-NG character action games, but I know he's very well versed in Ninja Gaiden and Platinum. He'll probably see it there.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:24 am 


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Anyways, if we just want to talk From Software from here on out, I picked up a copy of Frame Gride the other day. Haven't played it in a long time and I honestly don't remember it that well but I doubt it's going to disappoint.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:28 am 


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I've had my eye on that game for a bit, after a friend sent me some gameplay footage. Can't tell much from that, but I really loved some of the artwork and aesthetic

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Do let us know if it's entertaining. There's not much word on the game out there.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:32 am 


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a square is a rectangle you silly sausage. that is one of the many, many things you've been wrong about.

-edit- I just realised I just hit reply when I wasn't finished reading all of the posts haha. it might not be obvious what I'm replying to here.

this is what I was responding to.
quash wrote:
You're the guy who can't tell the difference between a square and a rectangle. I'd be a little less facetious if I were you. It was an exaggeration, but my point was that Demon's Souls didn't make enemies play by the same rules as the player. You can argue against that if you want, but I haven't seen anything in that game that would convince me otherwise.


Last edited by Immryr on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:43 am 


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I really don't get where you're coming from though. ninja gaiden black is a fucking amazing game. but the combat is nothing like souls combat, other than the fact that regular enemies can be deadly if you're careless.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:45 am 


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Yes, yes it is. And an acute triangle is still a triangle. But then why have a different term for these things if they're exactly the same?

Though I guess I was still wrong: I was referring to him mistaking 4:3 games for 16:9 and 4:3 isn't a square shape either. I just didn't want to bring it up directly as not to embarrass him too much, and now look and what you've made me do. Thanks a lot, asshole.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:47 am 


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Immryr wrote:
I really don't get where you're coming from though. ninja gaiden black is a fucking amazing game. but the combat is nothing like souls combat, other than the fact that regular enemies can be deadly if you're careless.


But is this not the most important aspect of Dark Souls? Isn't this what kept people playing the game more than anything else?

There are some more similarities if you ask me, however it is probably best to move this discussion to another thread at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:48 am 


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quash wrote:
Though I guess I was still wrong: I was referring to him mistaking 4:3 games for 16:9 and 4:3 isn't a square shape either. I just didn't want to bring it up directly as not to embarrass him too much, and now look and what you've made me do. Thanks a lot, asshole.


It turned out I was right though. According to Despatche, the videos I linked to WERE the opposite format, because the emulation does some weird stretching that isn't totally obvious (due to non-square pixels IIRC).
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:14 am 


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quash wrote:
Immryr wrote:
I really don't get where you're coming from though. ninja gaiden black is a fucking amazing game. but the combat is nothing like souls combat, other than the fact that regular enemies can be deadly if you're careless.


But is this not the most important aspect of Dark Souls? Isn't this what kept people playing the game more than anything else?

There are some more similarities if you ask me, however it is probably best to move this discussion to another thread at this point.


that fact doesn't make the combat similar. in any combat system the enemies can be deadly or pushovers, it doesn't make the combat similar.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:25 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Souls is not about pretending to be super skillfull ninja badass super hero, the way you are in NG or DMC or Bayonetta or whatever 3d action game.

While NOT considering either game as remarkable ans any of the above, I think a similar distinction lies between Z.O.E. and Z.O.E.2: in 1 you play as a kid on the run, trapped into prototype hardware that happens to give you just enough shelter to survive (on harder difficulties, that is), whereas 2 multiplies popcorn enemies and gives you "cool" moves, only to make most of the combat a joke.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:24 am 


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Immryr wrote:
that fact doesn't make the combat similar. in any combat system the enemies can be deadly or pushovers, it doesn't make the combat similar.


I promise this is my last post on this subject ITT. Mods feel free to move this discussion to another thread.

My argument is not necessarily that NG and Souls are the most similar to each other, rather that the former had influence on the latter. Obviously there are some big differences, but I think there are some striking similarities in terms of enemy and level design, and the general design philosophy behind making even the lowliest of enemies potentially lethal shines through. For my money, the first 3D action game to really emphasize that was NG. Even as a seasoned action game player you are always on your toes, as a small mistake could cost you dearly. Although Souls takes a different approach to combat in a lot of ways, I think this is a fairly accurate assessment of Souls as well. Granted, Souls has things you can fall back on a bit if you're not at the appropriate skill level for any given situation, and once you understand the game you can breeze through many portions in a way you can't in NG.

Even if you entirely disagree with me, you cannot tell me with a straight face that the closest relative to Souls in terms of combat is Zelda lol. It is lazy at best and ignorant at worst. Zelda does not force you to learn how to play in the same way that Souls does, they're worlds apart in this regard. While I can easily admit that some core components can be traced back to Zelda, the application of them could not be any more different. I can't remember the last time a 3D Zelda game threw a pack of rabid wolves at me in addition to enemies that shoot fire, but there is another game that does this kind of thing all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:45 am 


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God Hand came out inbetween 2004 NG and DeS.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:58 am 


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Severance: Blade of Darkness has a word with you too
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:00 pm 


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i might have been slightly drunk when posting last night. I used the word fucking in just about every post -_-

anyway quash, no one has ever been denying that NG was an influence on dark souls, although really this is something we can never know. earlier in the thread this isn't what you were saying though, you were saying that souls "took the NG combat and added stats". that is a very different argument.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:11 pm 


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Too many things wrong to even know where to begin. We can start with the fact that not a single game you listed is an RPG. They're all dungeon crawlers and/or JRPGs, a genre so far removed from role playing that you may as well call them interactive anime.


So the first FF isn't an RPG? That's a jRPG right, not a real one? Anime simulator, without the anime.
You said it yourself, and I mentioned it before you, genius: You can't define RPG as a game in which you play a role, for obvious reasons. So without that literal & useless meaning, we have a functional term. The reason RPG is used to describe games is because it serves a purpose. I shouldn't even have to type this.
I don't care what you define as RPG, tabletop or PC game from the 80's, whatever. Language evolves and now that term has a new purpose.

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My argument is not necessarily that NG and Souls are the most similar to each other, rather that the former had influence on the latter.


Trying to sound reasonable now? Your points until now have been riddled with hyperbole

Yeah, I know you had a lot to say about Arc Sys. That whole conversation kinda ruined the fighting game thread for a while.

I've said some variant of this before: getting down into the small details, arguing mechanics like some proven science usually causes the analyzer to lose sight of their objectivity. It also causes people to lose sight of the game itself, because a game is experienced as a whole, not piece by piece.

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The general design philosophy behind making even the lowliest of enemies potentially lethal shines through. For my money, the first 3D action game to really emphasize that was NG. Even as a seasoned action game player you are always on your toes, as a small mistake could cost you dearly. Although Souls takes a different approach to combat in a lot of ways, I think this is a fairly accurate assessment of Souls as well.


You ridiculed my examples of earlier FromSoft stuff earlier, but they all apply to this. Most of From's library has small-fry enemies being deadly, small mistakes costing the player dearly. It's not unreasonable to suggest that these existing principles were applied to 3rd person movement.
I watched that NG video, I also fail to how it backs up your 'slow down+ add stats' claim.

Sure, you love NG a lot, you hold it up as the benchmark for anything with 3D combat, that's fine. If you'd said from the start that you suspect some influence from NG, it would've been fine. You may be right about the influence. However you entered the conversation with vitriol and hyperbole, which brings us here. I wasn't particularly civil in response, I know.

Squire is right about DeS: you can stun/interrupt most of the enemies.
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Last edited by Blinge on Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:46 am 


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I can't remember Severance enemies being particularly persistent, but then again - I can't remember much of it bar the tech well ahead of it's time (dynamic real-time shadow casting and reflective water no other PC game would render without hardware DX8 shaders). Two TPP computer action titles from around that time, considered hugely progressive in terms of swordfighting, were: Die by the Sword and Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. I should dig DbtS up and give it a spin with a flight stick one of these days.

While more of a "world simulation" than mere action game, the first Gothic's enemies certainly gang up on you. First time I was outwitted by a pack of wolves it was amazing; then, having read real-life wolves do hunt this way as a pack, it'd made sense to me to say the least.

All that out of the way, one PC game whose designer (David W. Bradley of Wizardry fame) might have had ambitions akin to those of the Souls makers' - would be the (terribly miscarried at launch) Dungeon Lords (originally 2005; I've only now learned of the MMXII version released A.D. 2012, so not even Souls fad helped it receive much publicity).
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:17 pm 


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I was in a real bad mood when I wrote that last post, was more hostile than I should've been.
It's a bit late now, but I've edited it down somewhat.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:06 am 


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I really hope any staff members watching this thread are paying attention to how many times I've attacked someone and how many times I've offered to drop this line of discussion entirely. Most of you made it very clear from the beginning that you weren't interested in discussion at all: "Go back to Youtube", claiming I'm wrong while providing no counterargument at all, bringing up arguments from other threads, etc. I'm not trying to play the victim, because I know damn well that people were going to get upset at what I said, but I hardly expected this thread to go so far off the rails.

Against my better judgement, I will continue this line of discussion, only because it seems like people are starting to come around and acknowledge that maybe there is a nugget of truth to what I'm saying. That's what happens when you actually try to understand where someone is coming from, instead of hastily trying to find contradictions where there are none.

First off, let's just cover the points I'm trying to make. Let's not get hung up on examples because I don't think most of you are focusing on the important parts of what I'm saying. I never said nor hinted at Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden being most similar to each other. Indeed, this is a stupid argument to make for a number of reasons. I'm arguing, as I have been this entire time, that Ninja Gaiden had a good amount of influence on Dark Souls, particularly in terms level and enemy design and the importance of positioning and defense. There are smaller things that I think can be traced back to NG, but those are the most important things.

Additionally, I have never argued that Dark Souls is easy, I simply said it is not that hard. I still stand by that and don't see how on this forum in particular anyone can argue that it is. The learning curve is almost entirely confined to the first 2-3 hours of playing the game. Granted, you can always make the game harder by limiting what items you use, and I have seen some people do this. But at this point you have to ask why you are still playing Souls, a stat based action game, when you can play other action games that are designed to be more challenging and fulfilling.

Finally, regarding the whole Demon's vs Dark Souls thing, my point still stands: the former gives many enemies an unfair advantage that require you to play lame. Upon minimal research, it turns out that Demon's Souls doesn't have poise at all, and that enemies indeed have hyper armor on some attacks. Don't tell me that it can be interrupted because I know that it can, otherwise you wouldn't be able to beat the game. My point is that in Demon's Souls you either have to play way more carefully or equip a heavy weapon with hyper armor and power through them. The enemies' light attacks can go straight through yours when using light weapons, and as far as I know there's no light weapons that allow you to interrupt these attacks. So you're left with two basic playstyles and neither one is particularly nuanced. Compare this to Dark Souls, where you and the enemies have poise, and you can (at least theoretically) find a good balance between attack power, speed and poise. I don't necessarily think Dark Souls is meticulously balanced in this regard, but it's still a hell of a lot better than being forced to play lame to either extreme of offense or defense.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:49 am 


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quash wrote:
IFinally, regarding the whole Demon's vs Dark Souls thing, my point still stands: the former gives many enemies an unfair advantage that require you to play lame. Upon minimal research, it turns out that Demon's Souls doesn't have poise at all, and that enemies indeed have hyper armor on some attacks. Don't tell me that it can be interrupted because I know that it can, otherwise you wouldn't be able to beat the game.


The thing is, it's exactly the same in the other games.

Enemies who have hyper armor are bigger, fatter, and LOOK like they'd have hyper armor. They also have slower attacks to balance this. You have to play differently against them then you would comparatively "normal" sized enemies, and it's a part of the games variety. If every random zombie had hyper armor attacks, you'd have a point. But they don't.

The above line applies to all 4 games.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:07 am 


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Again, I've only played Demon's and Dark Souls, so I have no idea what the other two games are like past the five minutes I spent researching whether or not Demon's Souls has poise. Apparently DS2 has both poise and hyper armor which sounds interesting, though I don't know the details.

But it is definitely not the same thing, dude. Remember my original point, the thing I even said in the other thread: in Demon's Souls, you and the enemies do not play by the same rules. You can't hyper armor through attacks with light weapons, but the enemies can. You're required to use a heavy weapon if you want to fight these enemies head on, otherwise you are going to have to play very carefully to avoid taking unnecessary damage.

Compare this to Dark Souls. You can reasonably predict when your attacks are going to win vs when your attacks are going to trade based on your timing and how high your poise stat is. You can even use light weapons to beat attacks that you would have lost to/traded against in Demon's Souls because of your character's poise. The player works within the same limitations as the enemies, as it should be.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:18 am 


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I play against armored foes in Dark Souls the same way I do in Demon's Souls: sight read when they are winding up their slower attacks in order to poke safely, and punish when able.

My build was against it, so I pretty much never had any opportunity to break the poise of big hulking bastards in Dark Souls. But I didn't need to, because those enemies are balanced around it. The fact that you can break armor is really irrelevant in Dark Souls because you can fight them without anyway (just like in Demon's) and many builds won't be able to break their armor anyway, it's just an extra option. But again, you don't need to break the armor.

You can call it "enemies playing by different rules", but that's kind of disengenuous IMO. You might as well say that bosses play by different rules, or that shmup enemies play by different rules from the player. They are different types of enemies with different abilities who exist for strategic variety and that are balanced around the players abilities. I see nothing wrong with that.

Demon's Souls is good.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:34 am 


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Location: San Diego
Squire Grooktook wrote:
The fact that you can break armor is really irrelevant in Dark Souls because you can fight them without anyway (just like in Demon's) and many builds won't be able to break their armor anyway. But again, you don't need to break the armor.


There is no "armor" in Dark Souls, dude. It is all measured with poise, something you can control and plan a strategy around, not something that you have to basically guess as to whether or not the enemy has.

Quote:
You can call it "enemies playing by different rules", but that's kind of disengenuous IMO. You might as well say that bosses play by different rules, or that shmup enemies play by different rules from the player.


In a lot of 3D action games, bosses actually do work within the rules of the game. Enemies in STG are pretty consistent for the most part, as well.

Quote:
They are different types of enemies with different abilities who exist for strategic variety and that are balanced around the player ability.


Strategic variety in Demon's Souls is tantamount to either playing too conservatively to be fun or too aggressively to be challenging.

Quote:
Demon's Souls is good.


Based on one playthrough, I'm not convinced. If it is, it only barely makes the cut.


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