From Software 'n such

[Sumez]

I could have sworn I've seen KF2 remade in SoM also, but I guess that might be a fan project. Either way, probably don't bother.

[Blinge]

There's a postgame boss rush which has the same issue, spending like half an hour taking you through super easy bosses you've already beaten, only to subsequently face one you've never seen before with no way of gauging its pattern.

Oh great that's up next for me ahah

....
yup

Already died twice to Mato & Oro who are probably shit pissbaby easy compared to everything else this expansion's gonna throw at me.
Edit: oh looks like you can practice them on that bit off to the right.

[Austin]

Got the itch to play Dark Souls II again, so to mix things up I decided to try a SL1 run. Five hours in and I just finished No Man's Wharf.. something I would have done much faster on a normal run.

I used to complain about DS2's bosses, but I'm starting to see things a bit differently on this run. With the adaptability stat being so low, you have to know your bosses 100%--there's no room for slop. It's actually pretty satisfying getting successful dodges one after another, knowing how terrible the roll is without boosting that stat.

Parrying seems more valuable as well. It's something I never felt the need to use in a normal run, but I'm implementing it much more now especially as I am finding bosses can be parried, something I've never bothered to try before. There just wasn't a need until now, the bosses had always been a pushover.

For the regular areas I've been OK with abusing fire bombs and throwing knives. Still stuck with a dagger as my main weapon, but I've gotten used to it. I tried two-handing some swords, but damn are they slow. Someone mentioned to me that I might be able to two-hand a crossbow, so I'll try that later.

Thinking of areas ahead, I'm definitely not looking forward to Shrine of Amana. Also, some of the DLC might be iffy--not sure if I'm going to tackle that yet. I'll probably focus on the base game first, then see how I feel about the DLC.

Side note, every time I play the original Dark Souls II, I forget how much I miss that shortcut added to the Wharf in Scholar of the First Sin.

[Immryr]

Occasionally I think of the King's Field games, grab an ISO and think "this is really cool" until I die every 10 minutes and never make it to the second save point.

I've been trying to crack King's Field (the second one from a Japanese standpoint) and I both really want to and just can't - it's just slightly too janky for me. Is there a modern equivalent that doesn't lag or have terrible hitboxes? I went on a bit of a google search last night and found Legend of Grimrock/2 and Dungeons & Darkness and neither really feels right.

stick with it, it's a brilliant game.

[Leandro]

Nioh seems to be either a love it or hate it kind of game. I don't usually hear opinions that fall in the middle. Still haven't tried it myself but intend to some day.

I'm pretty in the middle on Nioh. The core action gameplay is absolutely phenomenal, and the character creator in the sequel is second to none but almost everything else slowly chips away from my interest until I inevitably drop the game and never return. It drives me insane because there is a fucking fantastic video game in there, but it is buried in six feet of garbage that you have to continually rifle through to engage with it.

Exactly the same feeling here, but the good was enough I was willing to accept the bad. The Diablo style loot system is really the biggest stain on the game for me, especially with how pointless farming other players "phantoms" made it. I wonder how the sequel improved upon it...

The "player's phantoms" become useless in later difficulties. The game really opens up after the 1st loop and keeps getting better on each loop.

Nioh is just too addicting. I'm 280 hours in and I know damn well I won't stop it. The game is a little masterpiece. The combat feels too good, slicing Yokai never gets old.

--------

But since this is a FromSoft thread, and I've never played a Fromsoft game in my life, I wanted suggestions.

I just stumbled on a random gameplay video of King's Field IV and I fell in love with the music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpsd4JmoEWI

What's the best King Field game to start with? The PS2 emulation is good nowadays?

thanks

[Klatrymadon]

PS2 emulation is great (just requires a little per-game tweaking to get nice visual results), but a friend once encountered a bug with KF4 in PCSX2 that prevented them from finishing it. It's probably been fixed since, but I couldn't say for sure.

Apart from that I'd say KF4 is a damn fine game to start with if you can get over the initial shock of the walking speed, which seems to put a lot of people off. The safest bet is probably KF2 (KF1 US), though, since it's a lot more breezy and has really incredible 'interconnected' level design (a single enornmous, open world with no loading screens!) that's sure to impress any fan of Dark Souls or modern search-action fare. Honestly, though, I'd say you can't go wrong with any of them - they're all powerfully atmospheric, evocative experiences that offer something utterly unlike anything else available (even later From games - to speak of them as proto-Souls games, stepping stones on the way to something objectively better, is to do them a big disservice).

[Blinge]

even later From games - to speak of them as proto-Souls games, stepping stones on the way to something objectively better, is to do them a big disservice

Preach, ya beautiful scouse bastard.

I've been meaning to replay KF2(jp) and then do a magic only playthrough, see if it's possible.

[Klatrymadon]

Hahaha! Yeah, a magic-only run sounds doable but I imagine it's hard to get started? There were loads of points in the first two games where I'd run out of magic for a good while, too. It's much less of a problem once you have a few flasks on you, though, so I guess the run would involve speedrunning to all the spell and flask locations before doing much else. Sounds fun, anyway - let us know how you get on with it!

[CStarFlare]

Can you get the red potions before needing to fight anything? You're not killing much with 30 MP. KF2 would be an interesting speedrun. I just finished it tonight. Glad I did, even if getting the Dark Slayer was a real pain in the ass.

Spoiler

Finished KFII (JP) today. It's hard to get going, but once you have some forward momentum it's not terribly difficult as the game really does give you a lot of healing resources.

I'd say the game starts to decline at the big mine - the mine cart you get randomly shot off of without any real defence is simply dumb. The puzzle at the entrance to the elven shrine was really annoying and I don't remember anything quite like that earlier in the game - it felt out of sync with the rest of the game, and broke the flow in a bad way even if it was absolutely optional. The last hour or so was a bit baffling - from normal fantasy to suddenly elves in test tubes, on to fighting a dragon who fires lasers in VR space is kind of jarring, and that last area especially is extremely under developed. It's a disappointing finish, though at least the final boss had the interesting twist of magic absorbing bits you had to deal with. Once they were gone though, he's a static target and doesn't do much but get crushed by meteors.

Maybe on to KF3 soon. I hear there's a prologue disc that was handed out at TGS so I'll try to play through that as well.

[Sumez]

[I just stumbled on a random gameplay video of King's Field IV and I fell in love with the music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpsd4JmoEWI

What's the best King Field game to start with? The PS2 emulation is good nowadays?

KF4 is probably the game with the "easiest" casual appeal unless we count Shadow Tower Abyss as a part of that series too (we might as well lump KF1-4, ST1-2 and Eternal Ring together, right?). But personally I actually burned out on the series immediately trying to start out with it. It's notably slower than the already slow previous games in the series (in those games you actually move fast when running - in KF4 it's unbearable to not run), and the cumbersome control scheme might feel weird in a PS2 game you'd expect proper FPS style controls from.

As already stated, I think the best approach is to skip the original Jap-only release, and start with the western "King's Field" on PS1 (so the Japanese KF2). It's an incredibly amazing game in its own right, the overall map design is one of the best From has ever produced, rivaling Dark Souls 1.
Although it's obviously janky as fuck, there's a fantastic charm to that jank that I think makes it easier to accept. The game is running at 50% speed at best at any time you aren't staring into a wall in a room with no objects in it, but that's just how it is. The controls are weird, but by the time you've made headway into the game you'll be used to it - and poised to play KF4 without trying to change the button setup into some half-assed wannabe console FPS that doesn't really work.

KF3 (so that's the one called King's Field 2 anywhere outside Japan) is a little weird, as it pretty much drops everything that made KF2 great. If you want to experience it all, it's fun to play though, but you wouldn't miss out on a lot by skipping directly to KF4.
You may also want to play the first Shadow Tower game inbetween. It's a real fun little gem, as long as you aren't afraid to do a little manual cartography.

[Sumez]

Can you get the red potions before needing to fight anything? You're not killing much with 30 MP. KF2 would be an interesting speedrun. I just finished it tonight. Glad I did, even if getting the Dark Slayer was a real pain in the ass.

IIRC there's very little you need to even fight in KF2?
I think the earliest one is the termite queen, and then I'm not sure there's a whole lot until the boss rush, and that golem thing in the ice cave or crystal cave or whatever it is.

[Blinge]

Maybe on to KF3 soon. I hear there's a prologue disc that was handed out at TGS so I'll try to play through that as well.

KF3 is thematically on point throughout IIRC.
I suggest you go back and play KF1 first though! It makes the payoff of playing the end of the trilogy much sweeter!
1 still is a good little game, too. Revel in its primitiveness!
*
As for KF4 - I think it's harder to get into actually. You can outmaneuver enemies so easily in the ps1 trilogy by comparison. Also - enemies seem to have poise in KF4, which is a game changer.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I'd rather play Bob the Builder Can We Fix It on the PS1 than the likes of KF2, Shadow Tower etc... again.

I tried some again after finding this thread and it's really unpleasant. 10 FPS, the worst running games on the PS1. Shadow Tower is legitimately one of the worst games I've ever played. Not really interested in having a conversation on this either. Just a counter experience to people saying these games are amazing when they are an acquired taste. Maybe I'm just missing something here, Xenogears didn't click the first couple times I tried it and I love that game now.

[Sumez]

How far did you play in them though?

They are an acquired taste for sure, but I think if you can't acquire a taste for those two, you won't acquire one for KF4 either. And if you do "get it", the experience you get is worth it.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Yeah I mean KF4 is rubbish too. I beat KF2 and 4. I just couldn't stomach it with ST not sure when I quit but at some point I was just like, why am I playing if I'm not having any fun?

[Necronopticous]

Completely disagree re: King's Field IV. Incredible game! If we are ignoring Shadow Tower, I think it's the one that had the overall greatest impact on me.

[Blinge]

Hell the PS1 games run damn well emulated.
That's how I played ST.
KF2jp emulates way too fast, but maybe that's for the best..

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I suggest you go back and play KF1 first though! It makes the payoff of playing the end of the trilogy much sweeter!

Completely agree. I hadn't realized there was a JP only King's Field that was actually the first one, causing some Final Fantasy-style renaming shenanigans. It's a charming game, and while the map design doesn't rival KF2 (KF1 USA), the game is still very enjoyable as a tense, solitary first person dungeon explorer.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Completely disagree re: King's Field IV. Incredible game! If we are ignoring Shadow Tower, I think it's the one that had the overall greatest impact on me.

Yeah I almost didn't want to post about it because I know the view point here will be so different. I just felt the need to mention my experience was not the same to people considering them.

They just didn't hook me and playing felt like a chore. Completely opposite from my experience with DeS and up as well as Eternal Ring and even Armored Core which I know many people do not like.

It might not be worth your time so if not then don't bother but I am curious as to why you found Shadow Tower good. As mentioned it was the one I just could not finish. I actually did not mind the sequel as much.

[Sumez]

Shadow Tower is hands down one of my best PS1 experiences. I can see why it's hard to get into, but it's really too bad it didn't grab you. If you played through all of KF2 and that didn't appeal to you either, there's probably no convincing you otherwise

[Steamflogger Boss]

Shadow Tower is hands down one of my best PS1 experiences. I can see why it's hard to get into, but it's really too bad it didn't grab you. If you played through all of KF2 and that didn't appeal to you either, there's probably no convincing you otherwise

For what it's worth I'm not trying to be convinced. I'm just curious as to the enjoyment others got out of it. In part because I played the game due to the high praise it for here as well as liking other From games. I was honestly surprised by how much I did not like it. I realize that sometimes it can be hard to convey why something is good or bad with games when enjoyment is subjective.

I feel like while many companies declined From has largely improved over the years. The best AC games are the more recent ones (4 and up) imo.

[Necronopticous]

I went way back on this thread to find my writeup of Shadow Tower only to realize that I never managed to get all of the thoughts out of my head and finish it, despite having spent many hundreds of hours playing, re-playing, researching, cataloging, translating, and just marveling at the game's structure and design. It is always a struggle for me to write about anything in a way that I feel accurately communicates why I feel the way that I feel about it. (I had about 5,000 additional words to write about King's Field IV but this was the best I could do.)

Shadow Tower ended up being one of my favorite games of all time, and firmly within an echelon of personal game experiences that makes it feel practically immune from worthwhile criticism. This makes it almost impossible for me to write about. I really tried a couple of years ago.

All that said, I did find this post I made in October of 2018, and I think it touches on the single most important piece of what puts the game on such a transcendental level for me. This was a project where almost every systemic RPG rule of thumb was put to microscope and scalpel at its conception. Every mechanic and concept and bit of minutia serves the other in a fascinating symbiosis that can be utterly inscrutable at the outset, but slowly reveals itself to you in an Awesome way.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I went way back on this thread to find my writeup of Shadow Tower only to realize that I never managed to get all of the thoughts out of my head and finish it, despite having spent many hundreds of hours playing, re-playing, researching, cataloging, translating, and just marveling at the game's structure and design. It is always a struggle for me to write about anything in a way that I feel accurately communicates why I feel the way that I feel about it. (I had about 5,000 additional words to write about King's Field IV but this was the best I could do.)

Shadow Tower ended up being one of my favorite games of all time, and firmly within an echelon of personal game experiences that makes it feel practically immune from worthwhile criticism. This makes it almost impossible for me to write about. I really tried a couple of years ago.

All that said, I did find this post I made in October of 2018, and I think it touches on the single most important piece of what puts the game on such a transcendental level for me. This was a project where almost every systemic RPG rule of thumb was put to microscope and scalpel at its conception. Every mechanic and concept and bit of minutia serves the other in a fascinating symbiosis that can be utterly inscrutable at the outset, but slowly reveals itself to you in an Awesome way.

Thanks man, at the very least I will go back and read those posts.

I get it that it can be hard to put things into adequate writing. This is something I struggle with all the time (I frequently edit posts). I also find it fascinating that people can have the polar opposite reaction to games. Like this is your favorite and probably in the bottom 20 of games I've attempted. And I absolutely do not think either of us is wrong. I run into this a lot with movies too. I love movies that hurt to watch because they raise important and interesting questions. I also find it fun to appreciate film and camera techniques. This is too long a rabbit hole to go down I'm just trying to loop to a point about games. On that note I do try to distinguish the artistry of game and level design from the experience of playing the game itself. Xenogears for example doesn't really do anything really well at a gameplay level but I loved it for what it was as a total package. What matters more will vary from person to person and for me sometimes from game to game depending on what I'm looking for from a game at the time. Hell, Xenogears didn't hit me until the third attempt. Maybe Shadow Tower will be like that. I often try to go back to games that don't click later on attempting a fresh start. I really did not get far enough in Shadow Tower to be able to fully understand the level design which is another part of why I asked for thoughts.

Edit I'll be sure to watch that Shadow Tower run too, but it might take awhile.

[Blinge]

I couldn't tell youze why I didn't like Shadow Tower much compared to KF series..

Maybe it's the shields taking up so much screen you may aswell not use them. Or enemies spawning inside you, dealing massive damage next frame.. Or like, that door you walk through to be instantly frozen and die.
Or the whole area that saps your armour durability

[Sumez]

It's been a while, but I just perused my own "old" writeup on Shadow Tower.

Really, as far as I can recall what really got to me was the creativity of it, the absurdity of the monsters you encounter. The constant feeling of horror and mystery (you know, standard From stuff ) and the constant incredible variation in the stage design (it's bold of the game to start out in a traditional narrow-corridored dungeon crawler, considering how much else it will throw at you later).

As with KF2, the overall thought through layout of everything is something that always works on me - even if it's a lot more linear than KF2. It's the same thing that also got me in KF4, and Dark Souls, and even in games like Ico and such to throw in non-From examples.

It's hard to tell exactly what makes it so amazing though, but it's just a really good dungeon crawler. I think it's also one of the best looking 3D games on the PS1. Not that there's a tough competition, but they really did up their game since KF1.

Or the whole area that saps your armour durability

Take that shit off!

[Blinge]

hmm.. a replay might be in order.

[Necronopticous]

Draw your own maps!

[Blinge]

Ah I got around without maps the first time, actually. Never felt like I needed them.

I feel like if I tried to draw a map now, it would double back on itself and i'd fail to scale the space properly, so ultimately it'd make no sense.

[ACSeraph]

Just gonna toss out another recommendation for KF1 JP. I loved it just as much as any of the others in the series. I really need to sink more time into Shadow Tower...

[Ghegs]

Well, since other non-From games have been discussed here...

I just finished Dark Devotion today. I played the Switch version and it took me about 20 hours.

The game doesn't seem to have much of an online presence, so a quick summary: It's a 2D Souls-like with some roguelite elements thrown in. The combat is stamina-based and you'll be rolling for those i-frames. There's also blocking (with applicable gear), but no jumping. The world is dark and bleak and the story/lore is largely told through NPCs, books/notes found scattered around and item descriptions.

The roguelite elements are what mostly set the game apart from something like Salt & Sanctuary. Rather than freely exploring a large, interconnected world, the Temple where the game takes place in is a collection of rooms connected to 2-4 other rooms, and you can only go forward, never back. Until you die, and you resurrect back at the original hub area. But the map isn't procedurally generated, it's always the same. At the beginning you can only access a single area from the hub, but shortcuts to other areas are opened once they're reached. There are also teleporters around the world and activating them allows you to return to that teleporter from the hub, but only one teleporter can be active at a time. There's tons of weapons to be found, but you lose all your items when you die. Some weapons and items are added to the hub's blacksmith's inventory, so once found or otherwise unlocked, you can resume the quest with that gear from the start. Permanent increases to your stats can be found, and XP from enemies can be used to unlock Blessings that either give buffs or alter how some things work (making your arrows explode, for instance), but only some of them can be active at the same time.

So kind of a mix between Salt & Sanctuary and Rogue Legacy, maybe?

I quite liked it overall. S&S is the more "pure" Souls-like, but Dark Devotion scratched the same itch for me, largely due to atmosphere, the combat and some of the pixel graphics are just lovely.

I found it a bit on the easy side. While exploring you need to be careful because some enemies can kill you fast and there are traps to avoid, but the bosses, of which there are almost 20, are fairly easy. A few I defeated on my first try and the majority in 2-3 tries with only the last boss taking more than that, and even then it was along the line of five attempts.

There's no New Game +, which is a shame. Killing the last boss gives you a nice new sword, I would've liked to start the game anew with all my unlocked gear available from the start, but only returning to the existing save file is possible. It is still possible to play the game afterwards and even kill the bosses again (they only come back if you don't have a specific item with you), but there's no post-game content or anything like that.

The game apparently suffered from some serious bugs at launch, and despite the Steam version getting many updates, it seems the GOG version was left behind. Not sure how the Switch port is in that regard, I did spot a few graphical bugs but nothing bigger than that. Reading the Steam forums reveals that the developers would've wanted to fix more bugs and add more features, but due to "reasons" they are unable to do so.

A shame. I imagine at least partly because of these issues the game didn't find much of an audience, so there's also not a whole lot of information to be found. There are fan wikis, but they're barren. The best place for info are the precious few Steam guides, and even they're not quite complete. Feels like the game might end up something of a cult classic that's enjoyed by a small group, but ignored by most. I'd say it's worth the asking price, certainly so on a sale.