From Software 'n such

[Steamflogger Boss]

Oi, I need my second tea.

No one on shmups can be the chosen one, too hardcore.

Interestingly enough, I just picked up Sekiro again.

[Stevens]

Who will bring balance to the salt.

Hey full disclosure - I did play DS and the Artorias DLC a year or two ago.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Damn it, I wrote a massive, detailed post on my experience with Sekiro and then when I went to post the forum had autologged me out and I lost it. The lesson: ALWAYS copy your post text before you hit Submit in case you've been logged out in between the time you start typing and the time you go to Submit.

To sum up: Sekiro's a great game marred by an abysmal camera that freaks the hell out and goes nuts when your back touches anything in combat, or when you're at close range against larger enemies. I played through it once and haven't been motivated to go back due to the problems with the camera and the number of fights such as in enclosed spaces where it can trigger. Unlike Bayonetta, which also occasionally has problems, you also can't dodge purely based on audio cues, and your dodging has to be done in different ways specific to attacks, as opposed to one lengthy universal dodge, so the camera issues are a significant problem when they trigger.

[Stevens]

To sum up: Sekiro's a great game marred by an abysmal camera that freaks the hell out and goes nuts when your back touches anything in combat, or when you're at close range against larger enemies.

Funny you should mention this. Had my first run in with it, you can probably guess where:

Spoiler

the fight in the well.

Fortunately you can

Spoiler

stealth deathblow him on the first hit which makes it a bit easier.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'd suggest not doing "that" the first time you see that enemy though

Spoiler

as you miss some interesting dialogue if you immediately do a jumping stealth kill without talking to him first.

There's another fight

Spoiler

against an upgraded version of that particular enemy in an area where you may have to fight it, and another similarly elite opponent at the same time, in a low ceilinged, relatively small space (larger than the well but still small considering it's two serious foes at once. It was the worst fight in the game for me, honestly, due entirely to the camera.

Other than the camera issues, Sekiro is generally great and feels more like a single player action game rather than a Souls RPG. Deflecting is fun, I got good enough in my playthrough to reliably trounce the first boss you're intended to lose against, and the combat system of finding openings to quickly get in a slash while deflecting and going for a posture break, or finding openings to hack away at larger beasts that are more or less immune to posture damage, all felt pretty fun.

The camera was off-putting enough that I did one playthrough and called it quits. I did beat all of the major bosses though including

Spoiler

all the ones in the good ending and the secret demon boss

so I felt pretty familiar with the game to speak about it confidently. The exploration and movement are fun, and the combat system is very different from your average Souls game from what I hear, but I thought it worked well. Dodging has almost no i-frames as a way of motivating you to make full use of the blocking and deflecting in the game (where standing still and holding block actually recovers posture faster than running around).

If I had minor nitpicks aside from the camera, I wish you didn't take Posture damage or took half Posture damage when deflecting. Even when doing deflects (perfect blocking) your posture meter eventually rises to the point where one failed deflect is an instant guard crush. It's probably meant to force you to back off now and then, though, and there are temporary buffs you can use to massively increase your Posture meter for bosses that are high speed attack spam deflect matches.

I also wish special attacks were better used. Only being able to use one at a time, and having the really good ones use Spirit Emblems to fuel them when you're already limited on them for ninja tools is unfortunate, and makes them feel limited. It's nice that you can use them to a lesser effect without the requisite Spirit Emblems though. I kinda wish special attacks were fuelled with something other than Spirit Emblems though.

Spoiler

Mortal Draw is a bit silly in that it almost obsoletes all other special attacks due to how powerful it is, with or without Spirit Emblems, and how it is unblockable/undeflectable. There are a couple other great special attacks though, such as the one that refills your Posture when you attack with it!

Having to buy/find Spirit Emblems is also a nuisance for beginners who are struggling with learning the game. Instead of them simply refilling to max whenever you rest, you have to build up a stock of them that get taken out of inventory to refill any time you rest, but if you're having trouble with a boss, it's possible to actually run out of them and run low on cash to be able to refill them, forcing you to go and grind on enemies to build up the cash to purchase more.

It's not a huge issue later on as you can amass a stock of hundreds of Spirit Emblems to draw from, but I still think that aspect is unnecessary and could be kept simple, like a basic MP system.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Having to buy/find Spirit Emblems is also a nuisance for beginners who are struggling with learning the game. Instead of them simply refilling to max whenever you rest, you have to build up a stock of them that get taken out of inventory to refill any time you rest, but if you're having trouble with a boss, it's possible to actually run out of them and run low on cash to be able to refill them, forcing you to go and grind on enemies to build up the cash to purchase more.

It's not a huge issue later on as you can amass a stock of hundreds of Spirit Emblems to draw from, but I still think that aspect is unnecessary and could be kept simple, like a basic MP system.

This is part of the From experience. I would say a vital part.

In Bloodborne the deeper you get into the game, the higher prices go up on non-equipment type items like Blood Vials, Bullets, BHM, Paper etc

Wasn't a fan of the MP bar in Demon's Souls.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

In the earlier From Software games such as King's Field, it's normal early on to have limited means to recover MP, but eventually you discover a location (such as an infinite use fountain) or items to allow you to do so, thus giving you more freedom to experiment with the spell system. I think having a rechargeable ability not tied to an expendable physical resource like money isn't always a bad thing, and it's not unprecedented in From Software games.

[Steamflogger Boss]

If they can balance it well then maybe. Items to restore it I am typically fine with but auto regen on MP is usually overpowered. I don't always trust From to implement things well. They've mostly had a good go of it lately though.

I am finding I tend to be drawn to having to deal with limited resources lately. Been playing quite a few rogue-likes.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Oh yes, auto regen on health and MP are extremely difficult to balance properly without them being rapidly overpowered. Too fast on health and you're essentially immortal, too fast on MP and you're omnipotent.

I dislike games where refilling your health and mana is trivial. Sekiro would get away with having either tools or special attacks recharge at save points when resting due to the relatively limited stock you can get even at the max level, and the whole buying points thing adding nothing to it, but your key items such as single use Pellets, Sugars, etc shouldn't be infinite use.

Spoiler

And indeed, even the special versions you can get which DO let you use them effectively infinitely still draw from your Spirit Emblems to do so. I'm not asking for Spirit Emblems to recharge mid battle, just that you don't have to pay cash to refill them as it's unfriendly for newbies.

The original Final Fantasy for the NES was a great example of how to balance MP. Your charges were very limited, and you couldn't save mid-dungeon, so it was always a tense, stressful moment of trying to balance survival with saving resources. Then there were the GBA remakes which turned spell charges into true MP, and made it trivial to save mid-dungeon, added MP refilling items, and generally made the whole experience ridiculously hand-holdingly easy.

[Bananamatic]

Having to buy/find Spirit Emblems is also a nuisance for beginners who are struggling with learning the game. Instead of them simply refilling to max whenever you rest, you have to build up a stock of them that get taken out of inventory to refill any time you rest, but if you're having trouble with a boss, it's possible to actually run out of them and run low on cash to be able to refill them, forcing you to go and grind on enemies to build up the cash to purchase more.

I beat it a couple weeks ago and basically ignored the entire prosthetic/skill system aside from shurikens for trash - it's absolutely unnecessary and possibly more complicated trying to figure out where to use what than just learning when to press L1 and the useful ones add nothing, rather they're just means to cheese stuff (axe spin2win, firecrackers)

fun game though

[Sumez]

I'd suggest not doing "that" the first time you see that enemy though

Spoiler

as you miss some interesting dialogue if you immediately do a jumping stealth kill without talking to him first.

Really? What does he say?

[Blinge]

Yuh running out of spirit emblems during a boss (I'm looking at you, monk) made me just think "fuck it" and fight without leaning on the prosthetic as a crutch

Still, it does add that element of variety in the game and allow for different playstyles.

In the earlier From Software games such as King's Field, it's normal early on to have limited means to recover MP, but eventually you discover a location (such as an infinite use fountain) or items to allow you to do so, thus giving you more freedom to experiment with the spell system. I think having a rechargeable ability not tied to an expendable physical resource like money isn't always a bad thing, and it's not unprecedented in From Software games.

The problem with basically every KF though, and you could include Shadow Tower Abyss in this..
Is that the mid-late game is super frickin' easy compared to the early game.
the MP Refills/ Gold potions of KF trivialise the game even further than just how beefy your character is by late game.

[Bananamatic]

To be honest some bosses have such bad AI (even the final boss) that just observing their movement and running around like a headless chicken is more of a crutch, if anything makes Sekiro easier it's the ridiculous running speed

[Blinge]

I'm going to regret asking this but.. What is bad AI in this case ?

To sum up: Sekiro's a great game marred by an abysmal camera that freaks the hell out and goes nuts when your back touches anything in combat, or when you're at close range against larger enemies. I played through it once and haven't been motivated to go back due to the problems with the camera

I hear this complaint about fromsoft all the time.. And I wonder
How would you fix this issue. What would be a good camera system?

for my part i think i've developed some 6th since where I always avoid walls or something because this doesn't plague or annoy me nearly as much as it does others.

[Sumez]

I never had much of a problem in the Souls games, but it's worse in Sekiro because you are expected(?) to move around a lot more.

I'm not sure if there's a better realistic alternative (having the camera much further from your character would avoid most issues, but change the gameplay significantly), but that doesn't keep it from being annoying.

[Bananamatic]

Spoiler

Demon of Hatred is absolutely useless up close, he doesn't use any attacks point blank but the stomp (low damage and blockable), headbutt (phase 3, low damage, long windup) and the grab (that has no hitbox in the air whatsoever), he's an incredibly frustrating boss until you realize that he's basically an oversized non-humanoid gunner with too much hp that comes down to approach->mash r1 until he retreats->repeat.

Sword Saint Isshin hangs himself in phase 2 by using the jumping attack way too much which is a gigantic opening, in phase 3 the lightning is just free damage since it takes no effort to counter, there is no need to try and parry any of his combos, just wait until he gives you free damage and you win easily.

Guardian Ape was surprisingly easy for me, again you really don't do anything but run around until he does something you can easily identify and punish accordingly, won on 2nd try for both fights.

Most of the humanoid bosses were fun and decently challenging (Owl both fights, Monk both fights, Butterfly, Genichiro even if he gets deflected too easily and the last phase is just a lightning reversal tutorial) but when the game tries to be dark souls it mostly fails due to the dodge being crap and running speed being too high to require any kind of timing

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'd suggest not doing "that" the first time you see that enemy though

Spoiler

as you miss some interesting dialogue if you immediately do a jumping stealth kill without talking to him first.

Really? What does he say?

Ripped shamelessly from the Sekiro wiki entry on him (you can also find video I'm sure showing this off):

Spoiler

First Encounter:

"...he said I'd find a cowardly wolf here. No sign of him though."

"...a broken and incompetent shinobi living in disgrace. I hope to see such a man for myself, but it seems I'm out of luck."

"And if he truly cannot die, I'm sure I'll run into him at some point..."

If you talk to him for the second time:

"Oh... you... Are you the wolf... he spoke of?"

"You don't look all that cowardly..."

"That matters not. They say you're immortal... Let's see if that's true." [immediately goes aggro and fight starts]

If you run past him:

"Hey, you there. Are you the wolf they spoke of?"

"That matters not. They say you're immortal... Let's see if that's true." [fight starts]

If you start the fight with a plunging attack from above [without ever having talked to him yet]:

"Bastard!!"

Note: you can stealth kill him even after you talk to him twice, just run away to lose his aggro, then come back and stealth him from above.

Spoiler

Guardian Ape was surprisingly easy for me, again you really don't do anything but run around until he does something you can easily identify and punish accordingly, won on 2nd try for both fights.

This one gave me way too much trouble until I discovered the easiest way to avoid the jumping grab is to run under him. The dodge doesn't have enough i-frames of avoid shit like this reliably, should have had a lot more i-frames and just a lot longer recovery so that it remained functionally distinct and kept in-your-face deflecting true pro strats.

edit:

I hear this complaint about fromsoft all the time.. And I wonder
How would you fix this issue. What would be a good camera system?

God Hand is the best example of how to do a proper camera system in a 3rd person action game with tight environments. The camera remains at a fixed distance from your character, and any time your back is against a solid object, the objects go transparent, always ensuring you can always see what you're fighting.

The reason most games don't do this is because it looks "bad" and allows you to cheese exploration-based games by looking through walls. I still think it's worth it for improving the combat, however. The alternative is to keep the environment much more open such as with something like Vanquish, where the camera rarely gets interfered with by objects in the environment.

[Blinge]

How DSP feels about Guardian Ape

https://youtu.be/LGY8_odlgyA?t=21360
(timestamped)

[Steamflogger Boss]

How DSP feels about Guardian Ape

https://youtu.be/LGY8_odlgyA?t=21360
(timestamped)

A truly broken man. Loooooool.

This guy has to be running a gag or something I stg. Blames the game for everything, claims the controller didn't do what he did, just amazing.

[Blinge]

I WAS BLAWWKINGGG, LOOK!!!
*shows his finger on the button after death*
SEE!!

beyond retardé

[Bananamatic]

[This one gave me way too much trouble until I discovered the easiest way to avoid the jumping grab is to run under him. The dodge doesn't have enough i-frames of avoid shit like this reliably, should have had a lot more i-frames and just a lot longer recovery so that it remained functionally distinct and kept in-your-face deflecting true pro strats.

When you run around you don't have to worry about it all, also the dodge doesn't seem to work for grabs very well, jumping away seemed to work way better...or just run around

Started a second Bloodborne run, this time going for arcane, didn't like the game that much on the 1st run (and 2nd NG+ with DLC which way way better than the main game) but to be honest I didn't look into the lore that much yet, it seems much cooler now that I did
awful frame pacing with motion blur and sub 30 fps is still dreadful though, monster hunter world for example isn't even half as bad at 30

[Steamflogger Boss]

Yeah but fuck Monster Hunter though.

[Stevens]

Sitting at the beginning of the following three areas:

EDIT - Added a few things, was pressed for time yesterday.

The Upper Antechamber - Wow what an exciting trip up to the top. The

Spoiler

Ninghtjar Clan

are ruthless vatos. Especially when

Spoiler

one whistles and the whole gang joins

. A lot of fun to fight with all the different styles as

Spoiler

they're all vulnerable to different tactics. Star throwing fucks are fun to parry and crush. Fire one I use the spear and engage. Exploding one - yeah run away. Seriously a great sequence to the top.

Also

Spoiler

stealth is all of the sudden far more important. Engaging two of the samurai here is do able, but three or more? Good luck with that, at least right now. They don't go down like regular zako. They're like slower mini boss fights except they only have one health bar.

Mt. Kongo - Beautiful setting. Only spent a cursory few minutes here.

Ashina Depths - Went through the first part of the mine (the part that connects to

Spoiler

Mt. Kongo

. Met

Spoiler

The Dr.

and unknowingly

Spoiler

sent that nice samurai to the butchers. I accidentally hit the button before I finished reading the choices. I'm guessing the other choice sent him to the temple.

. However this means

Spoiler

I'll probably get to fight him later.

Got back to the well.

Spoiler

The magic/undead boss is still alive. I did fight him a couple of times and managed to make some progress against him, but ultimately moved on.

.

Speaking of the above -

Spoiler

I should go visit headless again at some point.

Jumped off into the depths and saved.

Not sure which I'm going to do first, but I am leaning towards all of them. Reach the next idol and then switch to another area.

[Stevens]

Played a little bit last night, didn't make any real progress but was able to learn a few things in the abandoned mine/depths:

Spoiler

- Aha! So I started by the mini boss - I'll call him the tortured warrior - The guy with the giant staff who shoots spirits at you. I ran through his arena and bionic armed up. I see a stone - Hey I read this before . I realize now that both areas are connected. I missed the turn off by the Dr. the first time I was there.

Proceed down to the depths. Stealth and make a kill, and then get pounced on by Snake Eyes. Try this a few times and realize (wasn't playing in ideal conditions to be honest) that:

One - Have to make two stealth kills before engaging him to get some breathing room. There is a third guy but he didn't aggro during the fight.

Two - his command grab (the one that ends with him shooting you through your colon) is a simple jump and kick in the face parry. Kept hitting the mikiri counter button due to the aforementioned conditions. He doesn't seem too bad as long as I can make those two kills before engaging him.

If I can down Snake Eyes I'll get a fourth prayer bead and can make my third necklace. I'll most likely head deeper into the depths, but revisiting the castle or going to Mt. Kongo is also an option. Obviously going to do both at some point.

Headless continues to hand me my ass regularly (well as regularly as I feel like going to visit him). I probably just need to stock up on confetti and the stuff that keeps terror down. I tried snap seeds but they don't do anything there. Perhaps I'm missing something? I'll figure it out. I haven't had any success against him to speak of, but did notice that perfect parries don't build terror. Is it that simple? Also avoiding the teleport/colonoscopy combo cause that shit one hits you.I'm not asking for the trick if there is one.

Already mentioned - thought the Nightjar Clan was dope. Hope I see them again at some point.

I have also noticed some minor changes in areas I have visited already. No new enemies yet, but NPC changes for sure. I have not been back to Hirata Estate yet, but it is on my to do list also.

Really like the Sculptor. Great NPC, love the relationship between him and Sekiro.

[Illyrian]

Played a little bit last night, didn't make any real progress but was able to learn a few things in the abandoned mine/depths:

Spoiler

- Aha! So I started by the mini boss - I'll call him the tortured warrior - The guy with the giant staff who shoots spirits at you. I ran through his arena and bionic armed up. I see a stone - Hey I read this before . I realize now that both areas are connected. I missed the turn off by the Dr. the first time I was there.

Proceed down to the depths. Stealth and make a kill, and then get pounced on by Snake Eyes. Try this a few times and realize (wasn't playing in ideal conditions to be honest) that:

One - Have to make two stealth kills before engaging him to get some breathing room. There is a third guy but he didn't aggro during the fight.

Two - his command grab (the one that ends with him shooting you through your colon) is a simple jump and kick in the face parry. Kept hitting the mikiri counter button due to the aforementioned conditions. He doesn't seem too bad as long as I can make those two kills before engaging him.

If I can down Snake Eyes I'll get a fourth prayer bead and can make my third necklace. I'll most likely head deeper into the depths, but revisiting the castle or going to Mt. Kongo is also an option. Obviously going to do both at some point.

Headless continues to hand me my ass regularly (well as regularly as I feel like going to visit him). I probably just need to stock up on confetti and the stuff that keeps terror down. I tried snap seeds but they don't do anything there. Perhaps I'm missing something? I'll figure it out. I haven't had any success against him to speak of, but did notice that perfect parries don't build terror. Is it that simple? Also avoiding the teleport/colonoscopy combo cause that shit one hits you.I'm not asking for the trick if there is one.

Already mentioned - thought the Nightjar Clan was dope. Hope I see them again at some point.

I have also noticed some minor changes in areas I have visited already. No new enemies yet, but NPC changes for sure. I have not been back to Hirata Estate yet, but it is on my to do list also.

Really like the Sculptor. Great NPC, love the relationship between him and Sekiro.

The Snake Eyes enemies are considered by a lot of people (including me) to be pretty much the hardest mini bosses in the game. I think everyone gets walloped by them a bit.

[Bananamatic]

"arcane build" +0 hunter's torch vs Blood Starved Beast on the 2nd try
Turns out you can dodge literally every attack to the right without any thinking involved and just play the waiting game with 60 dmg hits when the beast gets stuck on something for 10 minutes

I really don't get why people say that Bloodborne is a fast game where you're meant to be up close playing aggressively- the game isn't made for that, some enemies have long combos faster than you can dodge through them, enemy poise makes no sense, trying to get up close and actively dodge things is the last thing you want to do, playing the waiting game makes it way easier, it's not like Sekiro where you're actually rewarded for being aggressive

[Illyrian]

"arcane build" +0 hunter's torch vs Blood Starved Beast on the 2nd try
Turns out you can dodge literally every attack to the right without any thinking involved and just play the waiting game with 60 dmg hits when the beast gets stuck on something for 10 minutes

I really don't get why people say that Bloodborne is a fast game where you're meant to be up close playing aggressively- the game isn't made for that, some enemies have long combos faster than you can dodge through them, enemy poise makes no sense, trying to get up close and actively dodge things is the last thing you want to do, playing the waiting game makes it way easier, it's not like Sekiro where you're actually rewarded for being aggressive

Yeah the Blood Starved Beast is stupid, you can also dodge left and it works just as well.

The long combos you elude to can often be 2-dodged in one direction and allow you to get behind the boss and open them up. This is true all throughout the game and especially later when not dealing with long combos in this matter you will get you massacred. For some of the hardest bosses in the game, the path of least resistance is to get behind them and open them up from there.

[Blinge]

I really don't get why people say that Bloodborne is a fast game where you're meant to be up close playing aggressively- the game isn't made for that, some enemies have long combos faster than you can dodge through them, enemy poise makes no sense, trying to get up close and actively dodge things is the last thing you want to do, playing the waiting game makes it way easier, it's not like Sekiro where you're actually rewarded for being aggressive

I guess I know what you mean. It's just a simplistic understanding of the rally mechanic I guess? But in most of my virgin play if i tried to plow into a group to rally my health back it just led to death.

The agression pays off if you know when to do it. Like chaining a combo of broken limbs against Amelia or something, arm to arm to head to leg you can pretty much attack constantly if you get the breaks.
However I've always sucked ass against larger BB bosses like Ebrie until I stopped getting in close, as you say.

I'd say the combat vs large bosses is far more about using the dash to get in and out of range when an opening comes.

[Bananamatic]

I never got the get behind them strategy either, had way more success just waiting bosses out

Like chaining a combo of broken limbs against Amelia or something, arm to arm to head to leg you can pretty much attack constantly if you get the breaks.

That only works if you're playing it like diablo by stacking pellets, fire papers and farming runes for every boss

[Blinge]

Oh I was hard coded to dodge past and punish their butt from DS2, took me a while to unlearn.

That only works if you're playing it like diablo by stacking pellets, fire papers and farming runes for every boss

I wasn't talking in that all-or-nothing way though. What i mean is, you can have a decent amount of success chaining a couple of limbs together and maybe getting a visceral attack.
I wasn't talking decimate a boss without it being able to do anything with those items. I mean, it's effective but kinda lame.

farming runes?