From Software 'n such

[KAI]

Just finished AC3 Portable yesterday and started (re)playing Silent Line Portable.
First time playing an AC with transfered data from a previous game, so far feels like cheating imo, I've been killing the arena mechs in less than 30secs.

I'm thinking about getting into the PSX trilogy after I clear Last Raven Portable (hope to get the true ending on this one).

[Sumez]

I've never played a From Software game in my life but I'll start with Dark Souls III, wanna see why people praise this series so much

In that case you might as well just start with Dark Souls 1, since it just had that remaster.

[Blinge]

Yeah starting with III is a strange decision to say the least.

[guigui]

I've never played a From Software game in my life but I'll start with Dark Souls III, wanna see why people praise this series so much

In that case you might as well just start with Dark Souls 1, since it just had that remaster.

Same opinion here : start with DS1 if you can. III can be overwhelming from the start if you do not know the series at all.

[Sumez]

Yeah, DS1 is a simpler game, and in many ways also arguably a better game. It definitely still has the best level design of the series so far, IMO.

Also, with DQXI now out of the way, I finally found time to pour a few more hours into King's Field IV, and that game just keeps getting better. I love all the little details in its subtle world building. There's a lot of strange, creepy ideas all over, and even something as small as finding the magic shrines here and there is an almost breathtaking experience. That dark room with a lot of weird things hanging from the ceiling? The martial arts guy defending a fire crystal in a remote cave accessed outside the map of the fire cave? It's just thick From Software atmosphere at its best. Demon's Souls didn't start this shit.

[Blinge]

That dark room with a lot of weird things hanging from the ceiling?

Yeah!!!

The martial arts guy defending a fire crystal in a remote cave accessed outside the map of the fire cave? It's just thick From Software atmosphere at its best. Demon's Souls didn't start this shit.

Oh shit i remember that, The guy who's just a distant black silhoutte against the flames?

[Obscura]

Man, these kinds of posts are going to make me want to try KF 4 again, and be really frustrated for a few hours before inevitably quitting because of the controls that I just can't deal with and having to go through the village over and over because I can't find a save point.

[Blinge]

I can just tell you where the save point is, if you want.
Also circle is the run button.. i think you were right the run speed is the same as Abyss' walk speed haha.
Unless you start slow in abyss and get faster as your character beefs up. will check.

Fantastic game btw thanks for bugging me to play it.

edit: nanana play eternal ring you move quite fast in that
Or KF2 (jp). Good world design, also quicker than 4, arguably the best one.

[Obscura]

I know the save point is somewhere in that maze you come to if you don't go to the village; my last attempt, I just got lost on there for about an hour before saying "fuck this" and giving up.

[Ed Oscuro]

Murakumo, Metal Wolf Chaos, Shadow Tower - all arrived within two days of each other. Also have Knight's Field IV (plus the LE artbook!) on the way.

I think I will try to tackle things in-order, starting with the King's Field fan patch (for the original game, of course, not KF1 US / KF2).

[Sumez]

Oh shit i remember that, The guy who's just a distant black silhoutte against the flames?

Precisely! If you pick apart all the things that make up that room and boss fight, it's really noting special. But From just manage to compose it in a way that everything just works together. Even the fact that you feel like you have taken a questionable pathway off the rumbling crocks, going slightly outside the map you have probably picked up at this point adds to the atmosphere. As well as the uncomfortably narrow bridge that you have to cross on your way there.

Man, these kinds of posts are going to make me want to try KF 4 again, and be really frustrated for a few hours before inevitably quitting because of the controls that I just can't deal with and having to go through the village over and over because I can't find a save point.

Yeah, that sums up my experience when I first played KF4 all those years ago. You really have to be patient with the controls to allow yourself to get into it. But it's a lot better than it immediately lets on.

I can just tell you where the save point is, if you want.
Also circle is the run button.. i think you were right the run speed is the same as Abyss' walk speed haha.

X is the run button. And the run speed is like the regular walk speed in KF2 and 3. I really miss being able to quickly backtrack.

I know the save point is somewhere in that maze you come to if you don't go to the village; my last attempt, I just got lost on there for about an hour before saying "fuck this" and giving up.

Not sure what maze you're talking about, but I'm guessing you mean the mines? There's a save point in the tiny cave right next to the mine entrance.
My playbook for exploring KF games is start out taking a peek at every branch in the path, and if one of them looks to go on for a while or leads to another branch, go out and check the other ones, to cross off all the single rooms first.

There's actually tons of save points spread all over KF4, but while you are exploring uncharted territory, it always feels a bit further away than it actually is. Not unlike Dark Souls, really.

[Blinge]

X is the run button.

#exposed

I'm near the end of Abyss. This game seems significantly easier than the original, actually.
Not having to deal with PS1 jank, samey areas, or being fucked by status effects from the get go makes for a smoother experience.

One of those "I think i'm enjoying it because it's easier but maybe don't want to admit that" moments, ha.
Also I don't know if the game's shorter than OG Shadow Tower or just because I've been able to make progress quicker.

I don't remember feeling particularly overpowered at the end of 1, but it's been a couple of years now.

[Sumez]

You are, in fact, incredibly overpowered by the end of Shadow Tower 1.
That game isn't really particularly hard either. But it does that that classic From Software feeling of constant danger being able to kill you around every corner, which always causes you to proceed with extreme caution. It's easy to read that as a kind of "difficulty". It's also what I love the most about their games.

What "ps1 jank" do you feel is in Shadow Tower 1? I think they managed to overcome most of the hardware's limitations at this point, and not feeling seasick from bendy textures all over. The graphics actually look really surprisingly good, IMO.
It does have all the classic "from software jank" of course.

[Blinge]

That game isn't really particularly hard either. But it does that that classic From Software feeling of constant danger being able to kill you around every corner, which always causes you to proceed with extreme caution. It's easy to read that as a kind of "difficulty"

um.. okay?

By jank I mean being shot through walls, enemies spawning immediately behind you.

Where the original is tougher is the balance of equipment degradation, navigation is also a bit harder, especially in that opening poison area. Then we have walks through areas that actually corrode your equipment , that ice place where I walked through a loading screen and instantly died to a freezing trap.

[Sumez]

I assume you quoted the wrong part, because that sounds more like PS1 jank to me than difficulty.
Never had the spawn thing occur to me. Rooms only respawn their enemies when you're a good distance from them. I do recall being shot through walls, but I don't remember if that was KF2 or ST1.

[Blinge]

Hastily edited.

[Sumez]

Honestly, most of that does sound like From jank more than PS1 jank
It's not really something I remember as a major part of the experience. All in all, Shadow Tower was an amazing game.

[Blinge]

Rooms only respawn their enemies when you're a good distance from them.

I got hit immediately by re-spawning enemies on several occasions. Might be an emulation issue?
This and the lasers through walls didn't happen to me in KF games so.. meh?
[with the exception of huge AoE spells in the final floor of KF1jp]

Afraid it's my word against yours on this. Looks like I mentioned it in my reflections closer to the time of playing.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54257&start=345

And before anyone misunderstands me like usual: I haven't been saying Shadow Tower is balls hard or anything like that
I merely said it's tougher than the sequel.

I still don't remember feeling as overpowered at the end as you do in KF games, where you're often unkillable by the end.

[Sumez]

For the last few floors of Shadow Tower I was definitely KF-style overpowered. I'm not sure what we could have been doing differently, though. Magic definitely becomes extremely powerful and plentiful, and you end up with like 50+ fully repaired weapons, even if you trade a few for health potions.

[Blinge]

I literally don't remember.

I was tired of the game by that point and was listening to podcasts during.

[Sumez]

Sorry, I seem to have forgotten how the spawn mechanic works. Yeah, when you take out some enemies, new ones will often reapper. I feel like this happened often enough for me to know how to watch out for it. I never had the experience of unfairly being backstabbed.

[__SKYe]

This and the lasers through walls didn't happen to me in KF games so.. meh?

From the small amount I've played, I can confirm that in Shadow Tower you do get hit by at least two kind of attacks through walls: the first appears even in the Human World, and is a sort of HP draining move that a weird ghost-ish enemy uses (not like the ghosts in KF; they stay in one spot and you'll lose HP every couple seconds if you're close enough), and the other are the bellsprout-like enemies in the Earth World that fire a laser beam (probably the ones you're describing).

[Sumez]

Also those eyeball things or whatever in the ceiling by the large heart.

[Blinge]

Okay, finished Abyss. That was a rather abrupt and confusing ending.. I expect no less/more

Not sure if the ending changes depending on whether or not you kill the scythe bitch? I left her alone.

One of my favourite areas was definitely the Mist area as it's the first time I really felt compelled to pull out a gun and start blapping.
The Alien-esque feel to that place was awesome.
For most of the game I was predominantly melee, using a ranged spell occasionally to cover my approach.

Spoiler

Them floating critters that phase in and out like a four dimensional being, firing spells off were cool. At long range and nt knowing exactly where they were, pulling out mah 9 seemed the best option.
I liked the boss of this area too, the mad scramble around the room avoiding the pitfalls and trying to close in on his minions. I did most of it in spellsword mode but as the boss was dropping bombs and retreating I pulled out the revolver for a one-shot finish ^_^

The Moving platforms area was a nightmare though. The flying sentries took a lot of hits to go down, six-shooter was the heaviest ordinance I was packing. They hit me with damaging multi hit spells that you can't dodge very well as you're on a moving block!
I got so much stuff in those rooms I got over-encumbered again and had to leave most of it .

What's odd is I got the final lift key from the illusion area much earlier so I wonder if anything was stopping me going up to finish the game. Maybe the door is locked if you haven't killed all the area bosses?

So yeah, really great game.
.. not Fromsoft's best
I still prefer souls and KF.

[Obscura]

Nope, nothing was stopping you from going to the end of the game. Nemesis is the last boss before Nega-Rurufon; Moving Platform Area and Rurufon are both entirely optional, and just give you some really good items to help with Nemesis.

Preferring Souls over ST:A is insanity.

[Blinge]

Oh, come on..

What might be cool is trying a guns only playthrough of STA.

[Necronopticous]

I just finished with Déraciné earlier tonight. I'm still waiting to see a Dark Souls lore style video piecing everything together before I fully make up my mind about that aspect of the game, but as a VR experience it's firmly OK.

[Sumez]

I had no idea that game was even out. Wow, it's really been good at going under the radar. Perhaps even intentionally so?!

[Sumez]

Getting really far in King's Field 4... I think. The game just seems to go on with no end in sight, but I prefer not knowing how far I am, so anyone familiar with the game can shut up about that.

Just reached the "emporess" boss fight last night and got my ass kicked. Seems there's yet another area beyond her palace, so I'm excited to see how far this takes me.

It's really interesting how thoroughly this game just refuses to accept that King's Field 3 even existed. Every change made for that game has been ditched completely, and instead it's picking up designs from KF2 and mostly improving on them. It's everything I would have wanted from KF3, so I'm really thankful this game was made. From will probably never touch this franchise again, unfortunately.

The complete negligence of KF3 reminds me of the remark I made after finishing that game, about it feeling much "less advanced" than KF2, most evident in the complete lack of verticality in the map design. I would really love to know what actually happened, but the most likely conclusion would be that KF2 and 3 were developed partly alongside eachother, by mostly individual teams.
Or maybe KF3 just got a really harsh backlash in Japan, and From decided to learn from their errors?

Some of my favourite concepts from KF2 that were reiterated in KF4:

The maps! I absolutely love this. The maps in KF4 are generally much less useful, but they still serve the same world building purpose as in the older game. They are inherently incomplete, often have a small role in the game's lore, and they usually require going a bit off the beaten path to even find them.
One thing I do miss is the situation in KF2 where you usually had to cross-reference multiple maps with different coverage of the same area, but what I do love is how they all have this air of being manually created. All hand drawn, and each in a very individual style reflecting its creator. I might be wrong, but I think From even managed to get some uneven scale of areas in there, replicating the usual mistakes you might easily end up making when drawing a map by hand?
IMO this is what all in-game video game maps should be like! Get rid of automaps forever.

The teleports! I find it interesting that they didn't just reused the more limited teleporting method from KF2, they also decided to make them even more limited, by having to rely on specific portal markers on the floor in order to use the "key" to return to a "gate". This might be a technical limitation for loading purposes (I'm really impressed by how the game completely avoids obvious loading screens or seams), but it also works in the favor of retaining the overall world design as you move around, and I really prefer this approach.
Free fast travel is a surefire way to hurt world building, and remove the impression of how the world is tied together from the mind of the player. Dark Souls 2 is a classic example of this. I'm completely baffled that From never tried re-implementing this in any of the Soulsborne games.

World design! Speaking of world design. One of KF2's biggest strengths was in the completely interconnected dungeon, which managed to make backtracking a simple issue, and every time you crossed over the same areas, you'd get a better idea of how everything ties together. KF4 is a bit more linear in where it takes you, but as you explore you keep coming around to the same areas, and opening often quite surprising shortcuts to help you get around.
I thought From got a bit lazy about those around Dark Souls 3 where everything is just a small "doesn't open from this site" jail door. But KF4 is Dark Souls 1 level. No, scratch that, it's better than Dark Souls 1 in this aspect.

The only things I thought KF2 did better than 4, was the more non-linear approach to its world map, and the much faster run speed, which I already whined about.

[Blinge]

I just finished with Déraciné earlier tonight. I'm still waiting to see a Dark Souls lore style video piecing everything together before I fully make up my mind about that aspect of the game, but as a VR experience it's firmly OK.

I'm probably never gonna get VR but I haven't ruled it out. would you recommend waiting to avoid spoilers or shall i just watch a playthrough?

Glad you're enjoying KF4 for those reasons Sumez.
I still really enjoyed 3 cause I got wrapped up in the world and its lore. Playing 1 probably helped.

Also: this is how it feels to play ST:Abyss..