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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:51 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
They're making new stages for the mode.

Uhh, no.
Quote:
In Classic Mode, existing assets and screens from the game will be rearranged linearly

If they had just said "existing assets" you'd have a leg to stand on, but "screens" clearly indicates that they'll be slapping existing rooms together, probably in haphazard fashion that feels like you're constantly warping around the castle.
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Who said anything about traditional Castlevania?

Maybe the people running the Kickstarter did?? "Classic Mode," "since controllers had two buttons," "In grand classic platformer fashion..."

Squire Grooktook wrote:
Rogue Legacy showed it's perfectly easy to design Metroidvania stages like this, let alone repurpose them for a platformer) and I can forsee it working excellently.

Rogue Legacy is artless garbage for dumb retrohipsters ignorant of the genre and the medium itself, so I don't see why you thought this helped your argument. IGAvania physics are way too floaty, weightless and forgiving to be conducive to great platforming design like what you can find in Ghouls 'n Ghosts or Wardner. They're best served by spacious rooms filled with large, mobile enemies. Even Ecclesia's Training Hall is rather lacking and poses relatively little challenge.

Squire Grooktook wrote:
What constitutes a "fanboy" and why is Iga one, and where is your source for this?

You're going to deny that someone who shows up to promo events dressed like a vampire hunter and carrying a novelty whip is a fanboy? IGA is only "the Castlevania guy" because he was so madly in love with the series and spergy about its canon that Konami gave up and handed it off to him when no one else knew what to do with it after CotM. His legacy at Konami doesn't even go back as far as Nakazato's, who was the guiding creative force behind every great Contra game since III on the SNES. And no, of course I'm not saying that Koji has been solely responsible for crafting every IGAvania by hand, but his interviews indicate that he's always had a surplus of influence over them - look at how even his FURNITURE obsession managed to creep into Harmony and Curse, for God's sake.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:58 am 


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Pretas wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
They're making new stages for the mode.

Uhh, no.

Quote:
In Classic Mode, existing assets and screens from the game will be rearranged linearly

If they had just said "existing assets" you'd have a leg to stand on, but "screens" clearly indicates that they'll be slapping existing rooms together, probably in haphazard fashion.


Re-arranging existing assets and screens means the "screens" will have different layouts and therefore be completely new except for aesthetics. The smallest amount of reading comprehension skills can tell that the statement in no way implies that existing rooms will be re-used without substantial layout change (how would the screens remain unchanged if the "assets" comprising them are re-arranged?). Think how romhackers take a Mega Man tileset and create a new stage. Being linear at all is enough to say that the levels will be a completely different beast (most of the rooms in these games have 3 or more exits in the first place).

Even if the stages were simply reprogrammed from existing rooms, that's still a lot to work with. Take a large room that's not just a rectangular hallway, fill it with spikes and some platforms. Boom. You got a Mega Man Zero layout.

Fucking hell, I just came here from Ninja Gaiden which literally IS just rectangular rooms with a few enemies, platforms, and instant death hazards on the floors.

Pretas wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Who said anything about traditional Castlevania?

Maybe the people running the Kickstarter did?? "Classic Mode," "since controllers had two buttons," "In grand classic platformer fashion..."


So no one, then?

Pretas wrote:
Rogue Legacy is artless garbage for dumb retrohipsters ignorant of the genre and the medium itself, so I don't see why you thought this helped your argument. IGAvania physics are way too floaty, weightless and forgiving to be conducive to great platformer design, they're best served by spacious rooms filled with large, mobile enemies. Even Ecclesia's Training Hall is rather lacking and poses relatively little challenge.


Everything you just said is bullshit.

Rogue Legacy is an incredibly responsive action platformer with top notch bosses (particularly fond of the balance between strategy and unpredictable rng attacks), good uses of enemies, and excellent platforming and spacing despite being semi-randomly generated (it's more accurate to say the rooms are constructed from pre-designed setpieces and then have enemies and platforms slightly re-arranged). The game becomes as well paced and intense as any arcade style action game if you go for a low death run as well. My 3 death run was by far one of the most enjoyable experiences I've ever had with a 2d game.

The game doesn't even look or sound "retro", being far from 8-bit, so I don't know where your getting "retrohipsters"* from. Not even sure where that audience or demographic is.

Nothing you said about the Igavania's physics hold true either. Perhaps the only (subjective) issue with them (besides not being able to attack on the ground) is that the move speed could be slightly faster. Otherwise being floaty and weightless (not exactly the words I'd use to describe them anyway) is only bad in the context of their surroundings. Irem's Ninja Spirit is deliberately floaty to the point of moon jumping with a tap, but it's one of the most intense action platformers around. I could probably think of plenty platformers that are even more "floaty" yet do an excellent job of emphasizing environmental hazards. As a general thumb, "great platforming design" is rarely about the exact type of movement scheme you use, more how its applied.

At any rate, the Rogue Legacy comparison was to showcase a game with similar controls that handles platforming and environmental hazards extremely well (which it does).

*Ironic considering the only hipster I see here is you, something which nearly your entire posting history in recent memory attests too.

Pretas wrote:
You're going to deny that someone who shows up to promo events dressed like a vampire hunter and carrying a novelty whip is a fanboy?


Nintendo does the same thing. Playing off the publisher and franchise =/= fanboy.

Besides, you say that like it's a bad thing.

Pretas wrote:
because he was so blindly in love with the series


:roll:

Pretas wrote:
And no, of course I'm not saying that Koji has been solely responsible for crafting every IGAvania, but his interviews indicate that he's always had a surplus of influence over them - look at how even his FURNITURE obsession managed to creep into Harmony and Curse, for God's sake.


I'd like to see those interviews please.

An optional bonus room that had no impact on gameplay, yeah that's a lot of substantial influence.

Then again, considering that the 3 ds games were excellent and all showed substantial improvement from Symphony and the GBA games, I'd argue that him having a "surplus of influence" is not a bad thing, though what designers and programmers end up working under him will also have an un-discountable and likely even greater influence.
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Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Sat May 16, 2015 6:35 am, edited 18 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:11 am 


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iconoclast wrote:
Just checked the kickstarter and saw Classic Mode was added as the $2.5 million stretch goal:
Quote:
Visible next in your Crystal Lens is one of our personal favorites: Classic Mode. This is a cool one, especially if you've been playing action platformers since controllers had two buttons: In Classic Mode, existing assets and screens from the game will be rearranged linearly, to reward timing and survival instead of backtracking and exploration.

IGA and company are still too early in the planning process to promise anything, but right now he's envisioning six punishing stages. In grand classic platformer fashion, you'll be weaker and the enemies will be stronger, and forget about saving yourself by grinding—no RPG elements here.

If you've always preferred your castles punishingly difficult, straightforward, and scrolling from left to right, this is the stretch goal for you.

I might actually back this now. :mrgreen:


Wow, a new "Classicvania" style game mode

Can this "Six stages of doom" surpassing all of the Castlevania III's stage design ?

:lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:51 am 


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No Castlevania games have great stage design, quit fooling yourselves - they top out at 'ok I guess'. Some of them have a nice sense of progression and a good 'sense of place' considering the tech, but that's a different thing.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:08 am 


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Drum wrote:
No Castlevania games have great stage design, quit fooling yourselves - they top out at 'ok I guess'. Some of them have a nice sense of progression and a good 'sense of place' considering the tech, but that's a different thing.


If you're talking about the Metroidvania's, sure.

But Akumajo Dracula 68k has fucking great level design. I'd say CV1, 2, Bloodlines, and to a lesser extent Rondo, all have good to great stage design throughout. 68k is just brilliant though.

Not sure which you meant though, since the only reference to "great stage design" amongst CV's was 3.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:14 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:

*Ironic considering the only hipster I see here is you, something which nearly your entire posting history in recent memory attests too.


Yeah I don't get it. Every other post seems to be railing on "Gaijin Indie Retro-hipsters" and I'm not even sure who this group is or if they even exist in literal terms.

On the other hand if it's not squarely created by an old-guard professional that never stepped into the public eye - and is of course Japanese-made top to bottom - all is well. There's some incredible contradiction here, but there's so much unqualified crap diluting the arguments it's difficult to figure out what the point is.

If IGA happens to be a fanboy it makes no difference: he's also an industry professional who worked on plenty of fine games. I can't see the problem tbh, I'm looking forward to seeing how this new project works out.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:30 am 


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Is this attack of the contrarians month on shmups forum? Must have missed the invitation. All your favorite games are SHIT.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:49 am 


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drauch wrote:
Is this attack of the contrarians month on shmups forum? Must have missed the invitation. All your favorite games are SHIT.


No, it's just pretas' turn. Obscura has gone into a dormant phase so pretas is filling the space. They seem to take it in turns.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:22 am 


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HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THEM BOTH POSTING AT ONCE!?
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 1:42 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THEM BOTH POSTING AT ONCE!?



Only one head can control the rest of the body at a time, so they need to take turns using the keyboard and posting.

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For the record I loved Symphony of the night, although I found Dawn of Sorrow slightly underwhelming (not bad, just not amazing).

I'm hoping for the best with this one!
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:16 pm 


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cave hermit wrote:
trap15 wrote:
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THEM BOTH POSTING AT ONCE!?



Only one head can control the rest of the body at a time, so they need to take turns using the keyboard and posting.

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For the record I loved Symphony of the night, although I found Dawn of Sorrow slightly underwhelming (not bad, just not amazing).

I'm hoping for the best with this one!


For me, definitely Circle of the Moon.
Pretty long game with challenging gameplay, the "dark graphics" makes this game more worthy challenge ( if you play with original GBA handheld ), and they ( developer team, which some of the team was old CV staff ) did what IGA didn't
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:13 pm 


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Immryr wrote:
drauch wrote:
Is this attack of the contrarians month on shmups forum? Must have missed the invitation. All your favorite games are SHIT.


No, it's just pretas' turn. Obscura has gone into a dormant phase so pretas is filling the space. They seem to take it in turns.

Did you somehow not notice that I've been posting in this thread?


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:26 pm 


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Actually, I think one of the reasons didn't really like Dawn of Sorrow that much was the generic bland anime art style that Konami switched to in order to draw in a younger crowd: the new designs had none of the charm or nuance of the old gothic inspired character portraits. Yeah, it's a minor gripe, but it's the little things that make up the whole.

I should probably give some more of the post SOTN castlevania games a go.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:27 pm 


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copy-paster wrote:
For me, definitely Circle of the Moon.
Pretty long game with challenging gameplay, the "dark graphics" makes this game more worthy challenge ( if you play with original GBA handheld)


Unforgivable hardware errors do not constitute legitimate challenge. I got Circle with my GBA at the time of purchase and I felt like sueing Nintendo for eye strain.

That said it is genuinely more challenging than the later iterations and I'd agree in terms of solidity there's an argument for it being champion of the handhelds. I just don't like the card drops being so random: I remember messing about in one area for so long waiting for one to appear I eventually gave up.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:55 pm 


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^^^Card drop rng was fucking horrible, yes.

cave hermit wrote:
Actually, I think one of the reasons didn't really like Dawn of Sorrow that much was the generic bland anime art style that Konami switched to in order to draw in a younger crowd: the new designs had none of the charm or nuance of the old gothic inspired character portraits. Yeah, it's a minor gripe, but it's the little things that make up the whole.

I should probably give some more of the post SOTN castlevania games a go.


Try Order of Eclessia. Not only is it harder, but it returns to a more realistic gothic art style for the character art.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:59 pm 


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COTM's biggest mistake was not making its unlockable modes distinct character classes selectable at bootup. :[ I dread the day my cart's save memory dies. I guess I need to learn to solder at some point though.

Thief makes cardhunting actually fun. Most of all I love single-sessioning Magician mode with a sub-2hr time limit. Absolutely first-class glass cannon action. Goring a weregrizzly to the fucking hilt on Mars/Unicorn for fatal pointblank damage before it can smash your skull in is goddamn sublime.

edit: "YEAH RIGHT YOU LYIN" No for real it's true! :O Here is my all-classes savefile ^_~
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 4:45 am 


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Would have been too easy to say "oh look, here's Obscura with a typically po-faced retort." In truth, I do agree with bits and pieces of the comments Pretobscura are making here as usual. However, I think that focusing on Castlevania as if it's a platformer foremost, instead of a combat game, misses the point of this particular evolution of sidescrollers. The clock tower levels often brought us great classic platforming, but all together they probably represent just seconds of gameplay in comparison to the minutes and hours of nonfunctional clocktower-themed wallpaper in games since then. So, we don't have Shinji Mikami to think about how to make a clocktower in a game that you can interact with, but it's not totally a lost cause to "settle" for Iga. I think that a big part of architecture's value in Castlevania, all the way back to the beginning, was to make things pretty. There's definitely a lot of unexplored directions for 2D gaming and platforming specifically, and I hope somebody should look into them - directions like La-Mulana or Spelunky - but that's not what this series is about at its core. Speaking of games that did try something with architecture, CotM had some of the right ideas and I get more excited about these games once I put aside my own belief that platforming should be more central than it is. Still, I think that it's easy to hate the architecture there. (As for the specific complaint that Iga isn't promising specifically tailored 2D level designs, that's entirely premature, though I would agree it's worth withholding a pledge if that's what is desired.)

Speaking of architecture, it's also really easy to get latched onto the personality at the front of a project like this as if they were "starchitects" being brought in to realize a vision for good or for bad.

Here's the rub - if Iga is carrying the torch for 2D, the early era of 3D adoption mostly pissed the flame out and then tried to repurpose it as a tent stake. Failing that, our technological overlords came and bulldozed the entire thing out to put up a pretty, empty glass-sided monument to 3D graphical fetishism and in ignorance (or defiance) of history. Of course, the high points of the Castlevania series are really down to personal preference. I realized long ago (and BIL's comments about the special years of 1993-1994 reminded me) that Castlevania should be seen as a night sky with a few bright constellations. I like the classic games when they are good; the "Gemini" development of early 3D titles under two banners, and the GBA titles also. The newer games might even be decent also if we see them as really separate things. I will tell you, though, that just as the stars are years away from us, so also are the games we cherish.

Ranting and raving about "neo-Hipster occultism / collector fetishism" or whatever doesn't make the vision of going into the past any more feasible, especially since we have to literally rebuild the infrastructure that took us there in the first place: Respect for quality 2D gaming principles. There aren't many people out there who have the presence and name appeal to try this, and I don't think that refusing to absolve Iga of his sins against the semi-anonymous salarymen and women of classic Konami (who were basically his contemporaries anyway) is going to do anything positive.

So, all the discussions about how Iga might be slightly off from where we want to see 2D develop - as opposed to stagnate - seem kind of off-point. It's important first to do what he says he wants to do: To prove the publishers who said "you can't do this" wrong. That bit from his intro is the most important thing to me.

Whether the game itself is good or bad - time will tell. I mostly have to adopt a pretty consistent stance with Kickstarter - I don't Kickstart anything. Maybe I'll change my tune for this, just for the hell of it. I'm definitely of the mind that it's worth getting less hyped over rather than more, but speaking of another engineering project - like Solar Roadways - I'm always of the mind that people should have their ideas fairly tried before judgment is passed.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:11 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
The clock tower levels often brought us great classic platforming, but all together they probably represent just seconds of gameplay in comparison to the minutes and hours of nonfunctional clocktower-themed wallpaper in games since then.


I think the thing is, it doesn't really have to be this way.

There are very small things that could be done to make moment to moment nagivation more engaging. Just putting a few spikes here or moving platforms there is enough to turn a bland hallway into something far more engaging.

This is why I'm a little bit optimistic that classic mode may be an excellent addition to the game: Since they're simply re-arranging existing assets and screens, and will probably be using far less screens in the first place for the shorter 6 stage length, the only thing stopping them from making some more involved layouts is pure boneheadedness. If you're going to copy and paste a few rooms with extraneous exits sealed off, why not copy and paste a few spikes and platforms in smart places while you're at it? It's not extra money to CTRL C - CTRL V existing assets, and it's not a matter of extra art assets since they're just re-arranging, all they have to do is put some thought into what they use.

Say what you want about Azure Striker Gunvolt being slightly disappointing (and it's really not that bad a game, just slightly bland and rough around the edges in places imo), but I don't think it's hard to believe that Inti would do that. Hell, I don't think it's hard to believe Iga himself would do that, since Eclessia's training hall is quite a beautiful example of how well this could work. The only worthwhile argument against that is Preta's "THE CONTRA GUY MUST HAVE SNUCK IT IN WHILE HE WASN'T LOOKING!" speculation. Even then, there's nothing to say he might not have liked the idea or taken some influence from it.
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Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Sun May 17, 2015 3:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:19 am 


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Good lord Ed Oscuro, would you please learn to write directly?

There's some decent points in that post, but god damn are they hard to make out, buried as they are in endless fluff, piffle, and bullshit. Even after reading "So, we don't have Shinji Mikami to think about how to make a clocktower in a game that you can interact with, but it's not totally a lost cause to "settle" for Iga." about five times, I have no idea WTF you're trying to say in this sentence, or how it relates to the sentences around it other than it has the word "clocktower".

You don't have a minimum word count here. Stop posting like you do.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:23 am 


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^^^ I refer you to CMoon's sig.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 7:28 am 


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Obscura wrote:
Good lord Ed Oscuro, would you please learn to write directly?

Nope.

Still, here's a freebie to chew over: How do you simultaneously decide something is bullshit and admit you don't understand it? I could make arbitrary demands of you on debating style, and they wouldn't be stylistic, they'd be related to logical coherency, something you're not big on.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 7:37 am 


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^^^He didn't say it was bullshit though, in fact he said there were some good points in there, just that they were sandwiched between things that were very opaque and hard to understand.

*edit* unless you're referring to past discussion of Dark Souls, because that was too complex for little 'ol me and I stopped following most of the discussions in that thread.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 7:49 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
I could make arbitrary demands of you on debating style, and they wouldn't be stylistic, they'd be related to logical coherency, something you're not big on.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:11 am 


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Obscura wrote:
Did you somehow not notice that I've been posting in this thread?

HE'S BACK

If only we got trolled like this once every 100 years. Nope, shortly after the master stroke of the Dark Souls 2 thread trolling the entire forum (until the Forum got bored and left; ironically my attempts to bring more concise posts to the table did nothing to help the generally accusatory nature or boorishness of that discussion), we're back for another round. Better yet, this isn't a troll thread to begin with, so the unexpected joys of trolling and the Spanish Inquisition can be brought to the masses simply hoping for a feel-good CV rebirth story! The magical combo is indeed the Pretas-Obscura mix. Pretas threw the gauntlet to Iga (or did he? Such constructive criticism, sadly going to waste on a forum ill suited to deal with it) with an ill-mannered and untimely mix of sour grapes and unfinished business, and Obscura is constructively rehashing the words (none shall escape) and also adding that personal touch for the folks back home. CotM the great platformer?! Are you srs. The great game, sure. Totally different subject.

I'm not sure which way to go here. I could try to explain why this is FORUM JR. POLICE level trolling, at the cost of walking straight into another comically timed accusation of being too wordy.
Or I could just play it up for laughs with the crowd, who realize that Daddy Moai has gone to the great cell tower above and little Iga would have gone nowhere being overly deferential to his slightly older contemporaries at Old Konami. People realize that sharing a development wishlist and making promises on Kickstarter is not the final sin against civilization.

It's sad this is once again turning into a sterling opportunity to sink time into the unshaven asshole of the Internet. I hope that can be stopped.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:28 am 


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ok but I think we can all agree that rap was pretty good right
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:03 pm 


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In semi-related news, has anyone seen the kickstarter for timespinner? Looks just like what a Metroidvania made for the SNES would be.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:17 pm 


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Isn't super metroid exactly that?...
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:45 pm 


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Except in a castle, yes.

Regardless Timespinner looks promising. I'll have to keep it on my radar.
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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:07 pm 



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I hope they do improve on the art, i notice it does say concept. Looks pretty soulless and not castlevania-like as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:21 pm 


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I actually like the character art a lot (with the exception of the banner, heh). Style is kind of a compromise between Ayame's style and something a bit more anime-ish, but Miriam's face actually looks distinguishable from most of the generic anime chicks out there, which is great. Love the stained glass skin motif too.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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