shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:23 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 772 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 22, 23, 24, 25, 26
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Nov 2013
Posts: 157
Location: united kingdom
I live in the uk and backed the 300 dollar tier anyone still waiting on the collectors boxes and goodies ?

My cousin received his backer cover and artbook .

Might need to send fangamer a email.
_________________
Arms installation complete Good luck


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:34 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 1214
Location: Southern California
Anyone try the new Switch update? Did they actually make this game playable/enjoyable now?
_________________
The Artcade blog


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 3:06 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4578
Location: Landorin
Not that I would blame anyone for not caring anymore (wait, scratch that, how could you?!), but roughly one year since launch and Iga rolled over the second playable character.

And yes, he had the balls to make it frills-free as per tradition. No dialogs, cutscenes or modern shenanigans, just play the game again and this time try to be good at it. :)
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Last edited by Turrican on Sat May 09, 2020 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:03 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1107
Turrican wrote:
Not that I would blame anyone for not caring anymore (wait, scratch that, how could you?!), But roughly one year since launch and Iga rolled over the second playable character.

And yes, he had the balls to make it frills-free as per tradition. No dialogs, cutscenes or modern shenanigans, just play the game again and this time try to be good at it. :)


Wait... I'm kinda baffled here. To me, the ENTIRE point of games like SotN/Bloodstained/Metroidvania-whatever is unlocking new powers so you can get into new areas of the map, while also upgrading your equipment, weapons, spells and whatnot.

...but with the new playable character, Zangetsu, you have absolutely zero of this. Nothing. He "cannot acquire abilities from the enemies he kills, craft new items, use equipment, open treasure chests, or use consumables".... so why would they even release this? It breaks games like this.

Another quote "all storylines have been disabled; there are no shops, treasures, equipment, crafting, or even consumables available when you play as the samurai, resulting in a strange traipse through empty halls with respawning enemies. There’s very little reason to even try the character that has taken nine months to release unless you’re interested in a few specific move sets repeated for ten hours."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:10 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4578
Location: Landorin
Dochartaigh wrote:
Turrican wrote:
Not that I would blame anyone for not caring anymore (wait, scratch that, how could you?!), But roughly one year since launch and Iga rolled over the second playable character.

And yes, he had the balls to make it frills-free as per tradition. No dialogs, cutscenes or modern shenanigans, just play the game again and this time try to be good at it. :)


Wait... I'm kinda baffled here. To me, the ENTIRE point of games like SotN/Bloodstained/Metroidvania-whatever is unlocking new powers so you can get into new areas of the map, while also upgrading your equipment, weapons, spells and whatnot.

...but with the new playable character, Zangetsu, you have absolutely zero of this. Nothing. He "cannot acquire abilities from the enemies he kills, craft new items, use equipment, open treasure chests, or use consumables".... so why would they even release this? It breaks games like this.

Another quote "all storylines have been disabled; there are no shops, treasures, equipment, crafting, or even consumables available when you play as the samurai, resulting in a strange traipse through empty halls with respawning enemies. There’s very little reason to even try the character that has taken nine months to release unless you’re interested in a few specific move sets repeated for ten hours."


You have never played a Koji Igarashi game before? The "action guy second playthrough" is a staple of the genre since SotN. I wouldn't want it any other way and Bloodstained didn't seem truly complete without it. Here's how it works:

When they made SotN they actually anticipated a lot of criticism coming from the fans of the old Dracula games... The intention of making it nonlinear and with RPG elements was to broaden its appeal even to non skilled players. But they also wanted to please action fans. That's why once you have had your fun leveling up Alucard to insane levels and beating bosses with just one hit (no kidding), you can go back at the game, name your file "Richter" and unlock an old fashion type of challenge. You start alarmingly more powerful than the regular play, but you don't get level ups or upgrades (save for HP and MP maxups which kind of justify exploring out the the castle once again), so when you reach the latter part of the game, unlike with your RPG standard character, a bit of skill at action is required.

Et voilà.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:46 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1107
Turrican wrote:
You have never played a Koji Igarashi game before? The "action guy second playthrough" is a staple of the genre since SotN. I wouldn't want it any other way and Bloodstained didn't seem truly complete without it. Here's how it works:

When they made SotN they actually anticipated a lot of criticism coming from the fans of the old Dracula games... The intention of making it nonlinear and with RPG elements was to broaden its appeal even to non skilled players. But they also wanted to please action fans. That's why once you have had your fun leveling up Alucard to insane levels and beating bosses with just one hit (no kidding), you can go back at the game, name your file "Richter" and unlock an old fashion type of challenge. You start alarmingly more powerful than the regular play, but you don't get level ups or upgrades (save for HP and MP maxups which kind of justify exploring out the the castle once again), so when you reach the latter part of the game, unlike with your RPG standard character, a bit of skill at action is required.


This is exactly why I've beaten SotN 7 or 8 times with Alucard, and I've yet to finish a single playthrough with Richter - because like I just said "to me, the ENTIRE point of games like SotN/Bloodstained/Metroidvania-whatever is unlocking new powers so you can get into new areas of the map, while also upgrading your equipment, weapons, spells and whatnot"... and when I can't do that, and I'm stuck with the same weapon, same powers, same special moves for the entire time I don't enjoy the game (well, enough to actually beat it that way).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 6:16 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4578
Location: Landorin
Yeah I get your point, I'm afraid the second character is useless to you.
To me it's great because let's face it... Inevitably after an amazing first playthrough of normal discovery, with RPG characters come... The knowledge of your true potential. With Alucard that knowledge is called Crissaegrim/Valmanway. With Miriam I suppose it's called Hellhound.

After getting godlike, which is an integrant part of the fun one can have in these games, it's good to have an option to play the sandbox castle and his many enemies from a purely survivalist / action perspective....

Then again, if not this, what would be the point of adding a second character that follows the same rules as before? It would offer little more than a reskin.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 6:34 am 


User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 3732
Location: Villa Straylight
Turrican wrote:
After getting godlike, which is an integrant part of the fun one can have in these games, it's good to have an option to play the sandbox castle and his many enemies from a purely survivalist / action perspective....

Then again, if not this, what would be the point of adding a second character that follows the same rules as before? It would offer little more than a reskin.


This.
You wanna have a rip roaring tense psychotic journey? Play Richter mode and head straight for the final boss.

Still, Richter mode does feel like a massive afterthought.
Those second modes would be amazing for me if there was still dialogue, *some* levelling. Or at least max HP ups that kind of thing that actually tell you. I can't remember if SoTN Richter gets max HP ups from the potions but it sure doesn't feel like it. Make me feel like a special boi.

Julius modes, the extras in PoR and definitely Albus in OoE were all improvements IIRC.
_________________
ImageImage
1cc List - Youtube - You emptylock my heart


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 7:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4657
Location: Finland
One annoying thing about Bloodstained's action mode is that it requires beating the game with the good ending after Zangetsu was added as a playable character. I haven't played the game since I beat it last August. Luckily I still had my save, and even more luckily I had saved right next to the final boss room, because I had no memory whatsoever where or even what the final boss was. And I had apparently overpowered Miriam enough that I was able to beat the boss again on my first go despite barely remembering how to play the game, and had enough healing potions stored to carry me through. So now I can at least give Zangetsu a go.

So a better unlock method would've been appreciated, though of course anybody starting the game for the first time from now on won't have any issues. But I doubt I would've bothered, if I had had to start the normal game from the scratch completely, or even had to spend an hour or two figuring out where I was and re-familiarizing myself with the controls and the boss.
_________________
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.

My videos
Rolling Start!! - Arcade Racing Game Forum


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 7:55 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4578
Location: Landorin
My my aren't we a little jaded these days... :) People in the nineties could go out and fork two hundred dollars to play Street Fighter II with four new guys, but can't bother to kill a final boss again?

If you think it over Ghegs, the decision for this method of unlocking makes actually a lot of sense. If they just added an option in the main menu they wouldn't be more intelligent than the infamous KCEN doing the saturn SotN would they? The risk of a newcomer to the game selecting the character is way too high and the developer is correct in trying to avoid that scenario, imho.

I had my last save in the village but it didn't take long in a game with teleport rooms to reach the final stage again. I wish I could say that I had to familiarize myself with the controls again: instead, I stumbled into the button that spawned the Hellhound and the battle didn't even take place :P
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 8:35 am 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2017
Posts: 907
Location: プププランド
i was a little late to the party and only played this a few months ago - really enjoyed it, much to my surprise. it feels like the most "iga" of all igavanias and perhaps what he wanted to do from the very start. completely goes whole hog on all of his neurotic tics, and they somehow compound into a bafflingly coherent experience. i feel like if you're willing to swallow all the busywork and numbercrunching and minmaxing, the systems actually do end up being rewarding and this is a really good experience to turn exact portions of your brain completely off to.

i'm usually really hard on these kinds of systems being in these games at all, especially in the modern day and age where there's tons of dogshit metroidvanias flooding the market from every angle, but bloodstained revels in them so much that they actually become the substance of the game. normally, i find a metroidvania to be a disgusting hodgepodge that doesn't know what the hell it wants to be, much like an ubisoft open world game, but this works. it's very much substantially an rpg with a platformer UI (like how valkyria chronicles is an srpg pretending at times to be a shooter, maybe? struggling for a comparison), and i'm... okay with this. i like it, even. i think he's finally stopped being dishonest with himself and really made what he's good at.

not really interested in the new mode, tbh, iga cannot design solid action to save his life and this whole game felt like him acknowledging that. just feels like a concession to certain parts of his fanbase.
_________________
~Imagination and memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names~
Image | Image
~*~*~*~*~*~* If there's a place that I could be ~ Then I'd be another memory *~*~*~*~*~*~


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:52 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4657
Location: Finland
Turrican wrote:
can't bother to kill a final boss again?


Do read the post more carefully. I wouldn't have bothered unlocking Zangetsu if had had to spend several hours in the process or re-play the game completely. I don't have the time or the interest.

Quote:
The risk of a newcomer to the game selecting the character is way too high and the developer is correct in trying to avoid that scenario, imho.


Or y'know, just make Zangetsu unlockable via password or a secret code that would be revealed to the player when the credits roll. That way new players won't accidentally pick him and but he's still easily accessible to those of us who played the game when it first came out, but are now out of touch with it (like me) or don't have access to their save file anymore (there are people asking for and sharing end-game saves just for this reason), or played the game on one system but now want to play it on another and cross-platform saves aren't a thing.
_________________
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.

My videos
Rolling Start!! - Arcade Racing Game Forum


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:04 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 12630
Location: SODOM
Blinge wrote:
I can't remember if SoTN Richter gets max HP ups from the potions but it sure doesn't feel like it. Make me feel like a special boi.


He does, starts at 50hp with +10hp per pickup. Also does x2 damage while in the Inverted Castle.

My only complaint with Richter Mode is you can soft-lock the game by Item Crashing near a vertical screen transition, he'll float up to the next screen and stay there glowing uselessly FOWEVER. Image Incidentally, you can exploit this in COTM's Magician Mode to reach places you'd normally need the endgame superjump for.
_________________
Image
STOMP EM IN THE NUTS
[THE MIRAGE OF MIND] Metal Black ST [THE MASSACRE] Gun.Smoke ST [TRAGEDY FLAME]


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:40 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 717
Location: Green Hell
Ghegs wrote:
One annoying thing about Bloodstained's action mode is that it requires beating the game with the good ending after Zangetsu was added as a playable character. I haven't played the game since I beat it last August. Luckily I still had my save, and even more luckily I had saved right next to the final boss room, because I had no memory whatsoever where or even what the final boss was. And I had apparently overpowered Miriam enough that I was able to beat the boss again on my first go despite barely remembering how to play the game, and had enough healing potions stored to carry me through. So now I can at least give Zangetsu a go.

So a better unlock method would've been appreciated, though of course anybody starting the game for the first time from now on won't have any issues. But I doubt I would've bothered, if I had had to start the normal game from the scratch completely, or even had to spend an hour or two figuring out where I was and re-familiarizing myself with the controls and the boss.

haha, it was the exact same here. I had last played this in June 2019, and I remembered almost nothing from the game. I went to a teleport area and spent some minutes trying to remember what the final stage was, then I faced the final bosses and had no idea how to play the game, but luckily I had a crapton of food items so it wasn't a problem.
I played a bit of the Zangetsu mode just to see what it felt like, lol. Maybe I will revisit it later, but I have a lot of games on my backlog.

About the game, I loved it, and my favorite Metroidvania isn't even a IGA one (Circle of the Moon). It controls like a dream and music/sfx are amazing. After SOR4 disappointing release I give even more praise to this game.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 3:46 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4578
Location: Landorin
Ghegs wrote:
Or y'know, just make Zangetsu unlockable via password or a secret code that would be revealed to the player when the credits roll. That way new players won't accidentally pick him and but he's still easily accessible to those of us who played the game when it first came out, but are now out of touch with it (like me) or don't have access to their save file anymore (there are people asking for and sharing end-game saves just for this reason), or played the game on one system but now want to play it on another and cross-platform saves aren't a thing.


How an end-game password or secret code can deter anyone for more than the two seconds one needs to reach the gamefaqs page or just ask the code on social media... As annoying as it may be, I would have followed the same criteria: no zangetsu without a clear save. It's hard to think people deleting their saves in this day and age (we aren't dealing with 512k memory cards anymore). And anyway... This is a metroidvania, not a Persona or a Tactics Ogre... People are doing speedruns of SotN weekly as a sort of sport. I can't see how not being bothered to play Miriam a second time (a what, ten hours affair? Going with the necessary calm) goes along wih a desire to try the new character.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:37 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 3732
Location: Villa Straylight
the password is another step to remove players thinking that the 2nd action character is the main intended game experience.
Something that might easily have happened when a newb fired up Saturn SotN / NitM
_________________
ImageImage
1cc List - Youtube - You emptylock my heart


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 7:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4657
Location: Finland
Turrican wrote:
How an end-game password or secret code can deter anyone for more than the two seconds one needs to reach the gamefaqs page or just ask the code on social media...


It acts as a barrier against a new player picking the "wrong" character to experience the game with for the first time. Blinge got it in one. An obvious and easy solution to your problem of

Turrican wrote:
If they just added an option in the main menu they wouldn't be more intelligent than the infamous KCEN doing the saturn SotN would they? The risk of a newcomer to the game selecting the character is way too high and the developer is correct in trying to avoid that scenario, imho.


While also covering the issues about being out of touch/losing save files/changing systems etc. covered in my previous post. The game already has passwords for various unlocks, including access to Hard/Nightmare without needing to first finish the game, which makes Zangetsu mode not unlockable through a password all the more odd.

If a new player, despite needing to go to GameFAQs to find the password, still manages to play the game for the first time as the action character, then it's in all likelihood a clear effort from their part to want to play an action game rather than a Metroidvania.
_________________
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.

My videos
Rolling Start!! - Arcade Racing Game Forum


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4578
Location: Landorin
I understand your position, but I stand my case that I would have done the same in the dev shoes.

It's true that the other unlockables have special passwords but there's a key difference: hard or nightmare don't spoil anything per se. The action guy instead finds all the doors open and spoils in a matter of minutes the entire castle layout, enemy positioning, bosses... It gives away the full game way too quickly. Asking for a clear file is a good safety measure. The experienced guy who still wants the action won't really find more difficult going through another Miriam than going to gamefaqs.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 6:09 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4657
Location: Finland
This was already covered. Only players who have finished the game OR made the conscious decision to start with the action guy would use the password. An accidental unlock of Zangetsu, and "giving away the full game", by a new player who doesn't mean to do it, is very unlikely if not impossible, depending on the password. Unlocking him the normal way isn't about the difficulty, it's about the time investment. Getting the good ending is still a ~15 hour thing, which for me personally might be two or three weeks of playing time at the moment.

The many benefits of the password easily trump your single issue of "it MIGHT allow a new player to spoil some things for them IF they go outside the game looking for it AND then decide to use it when it's obvious that this isn't the intended way for new players to experience the game for the first time".
_________________
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.

My videos
Rolling Start!! - Arcade Racing Game Forum


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 3:36 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4578
Location: Landorin
Hehe, we agree to disagree, it's fine. But I'll add one last thing: you can't play Maxim Kischine or Julius or Albus if you haven't cleared the games. Iga is being absolutely consistent with what came before, I don't see why we should expect anything different from the previous formula... Only because we're in the DLC age.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:02 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 334
Location: Leeds, United Kingdom
Anything beyond a SNES game that requires a time investment of no more than a couple of hours I can sympathise with Ghegs; Once i've played a game through to the end, if it's somewhat lengthly and doesn't have something different to offer - something like command and conquer or Jill/Chris scenario of resident evil - I will be very unlikely to play through again any time soon; Moreso if my reward for doing so is a broken, lazy afterthought.
_________________
The universe is neither hostile nor friendly, simply indifferent.

Even without my umbillical cable attached I still have over 12,000 plates of fortified armour AND I have my AT Field! There's NO WAY I can lose!!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 11:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Posts: 493
Finally got back to this. Zangetsu seems to be about what you'd expect. I'm interested to see how high the difficulty gets, although I'm kind of worried about what some of the later bosses would be like,

Surprisingly, though, I've been having a lot of fun with the randomizer mode. Did two hard mode runs and now I'm on a Nightmare run. I got an absolutely blessed seed, though, so it's going to be pretty easy. Happy to be getting a bit of extra life from this game.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 772 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 22, 23, 24, 25, 26

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bananamatic, kitten, Lags and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group