Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Turrican
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Turrican »

Sumez wrote:
Turrican wrote:Maybe someone had to object to pixelated blood... More likely, it's just sony's incompetence.
Definitely the latter. That said, Fangamer are essentially at fault for not making sure they had their shit sorted out before they declared the game to be released.
Yep. It wasn't good to receive the code after a week that everyone else could simply buy it. Although in their partial defence, they mantained a decent level of communication in the kickstarter comments, and I believe them when they say that having to manage a three-joint project (there's Artplay, Inti, Fangamer) and having to deal with consoles bureocracy can be nightmarish...
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Turrican »

Sony NA codes (PS4/PSVITA) are available at last.
Spoiler
Finished Nightmare mode, on the quest to do the Zangetsu solo. This is where things get tricky difficulty wise, and you appreciate the fine tuning they did with enemy placement and stage design. Definitely recommended, do not stop at a first pass in normal mode or you'll get disappointed.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

Game finally appeared in my PSN store... but guess what, the code still doesn't work.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Marc »

Tried this last night, not bad, but as someone that holds no nostalgia whatsoever for the NES, that soundtrack is utterly, utterly dreadful. I can just about live with the graphics, but the sound is painful to listen to.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Dochartaigh »

Did anybody else just get an email from FanGamer titled "Download Code Available for Order KICKBLOODSTAINED", which only links to the "Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon (Early Look) Steam (COTM)" ....which that same code has been there for almost TWO weeks now? Confused...

...that would just be really weird that they would email me almost 2 weeks later telling me that I get a code for an "early look" of the game, when that early look was a consolation prize for the Curse of the Moon being released late for Xbox One (when it's available on other platforms), yet, again, they add insult to injury and only notify me that the code is there ~2 weeks later? lol. Not to mention how I can't even play that Steam game since I'm on a Mac...

And did I hear correctly, for the Xbox One (full game) Curse of the Moon game was supposed to be ready for tomorrow, the 6th?
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Turrican »

Marc wrote:Tried this last night, not bad, but as someone that holds no nostalgia whatsoever for the NES, that soundtrack is utterly, utterly dreadful. I can just about live with the graphics, but the sound is painful to listen to.
This is so wrong! :(
Spoiler
Although I admit the stage 7 tune was becoming irksome after a while... Probably it's too short and loops too frequently for a long winded stage.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Herr Schatten »

Dochartaigh wrote:Did anybody else just get an email from FanGamer titled "Download Code Available for Order KICKBLOODSTAINED", which only links to the "Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon (Early Look) Steam (COTM)" ....which that same code has been there for almost TWO weeks now? Confused...
Same here.
Marc wrote:Tried this last night, not bad, but as someone that holds no nostalgia whatsoever for the NES, that soundtrack is utterly, utterly dreadful. I can just about live with the graphics, but the sound is painful to listen to.
Oh, how I wish that 'retro' wasn't associated with mimicking the NES as much as it apparently is. This is not exclusive to this game, but to all similar projects. If someone was going for an 8-bit aesthetic, they could also try to make it look like an MSX or SMS game and have superior visuals, but no, they must stick to those NES palettes conceived by some drunk hippie.
I think that NES-style chiptunes are mostly okay (SMS-style PSG sounds would be much worse) , although I certainly wouldn't mind going for something more akin to the PC-Engine soundwise.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Turrican »

Herr Schatten wrote: Oh, how I wish that 'retro' wasn't associated with mimicking the NES as much as it apparently is. This is not exclusive to this game, but to all similar projects. If someone was going for an 8-bit aesthetic, they could also try to make it look like an MSX or SMS game and have superior visuals, but no, they must stick to those NES palettes conceived by some drunk hippie.
I think that NES-style chiptunes are mostly okay (SMS-style PSG sounds would be much worse) , although I certainly wouldn't mind going for something more akin to the PC-Engine soundwise.
While I would agree in general, I disagree on this particular case, and for two reasons. The majority of Iga's career has been revolved into getting people to acknoledge how much Dracula's Curse rocks, and how much one is missing out if he doesn't get to play it. This Curse of the Moon doesn't aim for generic NES aesthetics, but for specific Dracula's Curse mimicry. In that sense, any other option would have been worse. Yes, even having the game done in 16 bit graphics a la Rondo or SCVIV would have been a missstep in this case.
The second reason is Inti: CotM's acid "drunk hippie" palette is their signature. It's the *one* instance where they stray from the source, abandoning Dracula's Curse "realistic" feel for over the top, garish neon effects here and there. You definitely get a MMZero vibe from the choice of colors in this game, something you'd be hard pressed to find in the original library of commercially available NES titles.

By the way Herr Schatten, get to play Tikipod's Rock Boshers Director's Cut DX and you'll realize your dream even catching two birds with one stone, as the game has both a Spectrum and a "8-bit console" (blatantly SMS) palette to choose from. 8)
Another really cool one is "Castlevania ~ Spectral Interlude" for the Spectrum (freeware!). So not everywhere there's NES aping.

...That said, it must also be said that replicating the NES is nowadays a philosophical issue for developers, a subject not to be taken lightly:

Yacht: Breaking the NES David D'Angelo on July 21, 2014

Joymasher: Odallus and NES: a graphic love letter by Danilo Dias on 07/07/15

Mega Cat: Creating NES Graphics

Sole Goose: Chapter I: Foundations of NES Graphics

It's funny, but the more blatant limitations a specific systems used to have in terms of colour palette, the more distinctive it has become with time, with people trying hard to recreate "the magic" (think also colour clash etc.). The SMS had arguably the best palette of its time, and in fact no one tries to recapture an "SMS look", because it has no inherent "flaw" that characterize it. I guess the same goes for MSX: MSX2 is so much better, yet so less distinctive and recognizable than MSX1 in terms of colour.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Marc »

I guess it's just a nostalgia thing. I'd enjoy a game based around the Spectrum / C64 aesthetic - although even then I'd rather have something that evokes the machine, rather than sticking to its every limitation (as Rock Boshers does).

The NES and MS sounded horrible even back then though, so when a game goes after that feel it's guaranteed to be unlistenable to my ears.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

Marc wrote:I guess it's just a nostalgia thing. I'd enjoy a game based around the Spectrum / C64 aesthetic - although even then I'd rather have something that evokes the machine, rather than sticking to its every limitation (as Rock Boshers does).
If you don't know it, check this out. It's awesome:
https://www.locomalito.com/abbaye_des_morts.php
The NES and MS sounded horrible even back then though, so when a game goes after that feel it's guaranteed to be unlistenable to my ears.
If you don't know it, check this out. It's awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6sjYt6EJVw
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by opt2not »

Turrican wrote:
Herr Schatten wrote: Oh, how I wish that 'retro' wasn't associated with mimicking the NES as much as it apparently is. This is not exclusive to this game, but to all similar projects. If someone was going for an 8-bit aesthetic, they could also try to make it look like an MSX or SMS game and have superior visuals, but no, they must stick to those NES palettes conceived by some drunk hippie.
I think that NES-style chiptunes are mostly okay (SMS-style PSG sounds would be much worse) , although I certainly wouldn't mind going for something more akin to the PC-Engine soundwise.
While I would agree in general, I disagree on this particular case, and for two reasons. The majority of Iga's career has been revolved into getting people to acknoledge how much Dracula's Curse rocks, and how much one is missing out if he doesn't get to play it. This Curse of the Moon doesn't aim for generic NES aesthetics, but for specific Dracula's Curse mimicry. In that sense, any other option would have been worse. Yes, even having the game done in 16 bit graphics a la Rondo or SCVIV would have been a missstep in this case.
The second reason is Inti: CotM's acid "drunk hippie" palette is their signature. It's the *one* instance where they stray from the source, abandoning Dracula's Curse "realistic" feel for over the top, garish neon effects here and there. You definitely get a MMZero vibe from the choice of colors in this game, something you'd be hard pressed to find in the original library of commercially available NES titles.

By the way Herr Schatten, get to play Tikipod's Rock Boshers Director's Cut DX and you'll realize your dream even catching two birds with one stone, as the game has both a Spectrum and a "8-bit console" (blatantly SMS) palette to choose from. 8)
Another really cool one is "Castlevania ~ Spectral Interlude" for the Spectrum (freeware!). So not everywhere there's NES aping.

...That said, it must also be said that replicating the NES is nowadays a philosophical issue for developers, a subject not to be taken lightly:

Yacht: Breaking the NES David D'Angelo on July 21, 2014

Joymasher: Odallus and NES: a graphic love letter by Danilo Dias on 07/07/15

Mega Cat: Creating NES Graphics

Sole Goose: Chapter I: Foundations of NES Graphics

It's funny, but the more blatant limitations a specific systems used to have in terms of colour palette, the more distinctive it has become with time, with people trying hard to recreate "the magic" (think also colour clash etc.). The SMS had arguably the best palette of its time, and in fact no one tries to recapture an "SMS look", because it has no inherent "flaw" that characterize it. I guess the same goes for MSX: MSX2 is so much better, yet so less distinctive and recognizable than MSX1 in terms of colour.
Just to add to this (I agree with all of Turrican's points here), there is a great introduction to how the audio works on the NES. https://youtu.be/la3coK5pq5w
Very interesting how they're able to get different sounds out of the NES hardware.

Personally I love NES music, there are some really great ones out there. As for the look, I would say the art to this is like NES+. They don't have the same hardware restrictions as the NES, so there isn't much flickering due to sprite drawing limitations, big boss fights are on actual backgrounds and not on black screens like most NES games had, and you'll notice that animated sprites have much more frames of animation than what you'd get on an NES. I'm really happy with the way they made it feel/look like an NES but updated, without having the restrictions of the original hardware. It's tastefully done IMO.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Turrican »

It would be cool to list all the retail-available games molded in pseudo-NES (or enhanced-NES) shape.

Megaman 9
Megaman 10
Shovel Knight
Blaster Master Zero
Bloodstained CotM
Double Dragon IV
Wizorb
Ninja Senki / NSDX
Curse of Issyos
Odallus the Dark Call

I excluded things like Curses N Chaos because the background graphics are clearly not in NES vein...how many I'm missing?
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

Wow, that's a really tough definition. Of the ones you mentioned, I'd say only Megaman 9 and 10, Shovel Knight and Curse of Issyos are actually created with NES aesthetics in mind. Of course, none of them would be remotely possible on an NES (except maybe Issyos?), but they definitely adhered to the limitations as far as style goes.

Odallus is definitely out, the only thing remotely close to NES is the color scheme. Oniken does it well, however.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Austin »

Turrican wrote:It would be cool to list all the retail-available games molded in pseudo-NES (or enhanced-NES) shape.

Megaman 9
Megaman 10
Shovel Knight
Blaster Master Zero
Bloodstained CotM
Double Dragon IV
Wizorb
Ninja Senki / NSDX
Curse of Issyos
Odallus the Dark Call

I excluded things like Curses N Chaos because the background graphics are clearly not in NES vein...how many I'm missing?
Dark Void Zero
Super Cyborg
1001 Spikes

I know there are more, but my mind's drawing a blank right now.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Turrican »

Dithering and too many non-NES colours here:

https://goo.gl/images/9rY9if

I'd exclude Super Cyborg.

1001 Spikes instead looks legit, at least the sprites are spot on.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Herr Schatten »

I'm aware that all the NES-mimicking is done mostly for automatic baked-in distinctiveness and added nostalgia, so it makes perfect sense from a developer's point of view to go this way if you want to cater to the 'retro' crowd. I just think it's too narrow a focus, and ultimately it feels a bit lazy to me, which is quite ironic given the fact that producing something good-looking within the NES colour space actually takes some serious skill.

In fact, I think that Locomalito's works show beautifully that you can make games that are all unmistakably and loveably 'retro', even though quite a few of them dare to stray from the NES template and instead evoke the look and feel of machines as diverse as ZX Spectrum (L'Abbaye des Morts), SMS (Gaurodan), MD (Maldita Castilla), SNES (Hydorah).
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

EU PS4 codes finally work, and I just had time tonight to dive into the first four stages. Going on vacation on Saturday, so I probably won't get to play much more, but I'll be back with my immediate thoughts tomorrow.

Game looks great btw. The stages have a lot more "NES'isms" than I had expected, but a lot of places go so far off the rails (most obviously the boss fights), that any resemblance of nostalgia gets blown out the window. I think the chosen style fits the game well, especially with the low number of colors on the player character. Gives the game a nice mood that fits its style.
Bosses are absurdly good looking. Especially a fan of the coin themed one.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Strider77 »

Yes, even having the game done in 16 bit graphics a la Rondo or SCVIV would have been a missstep in this case.
No
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

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I really wish people would stop using terms like "8-bit" or "16-bit" regarding graphics unless they are actually talking about color depth (which they aren't). The term has absolutely no meaning.

Would have been cool if the entire game looked like the boss fights, but as it is, it's a really good looking game.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

Here's my immediate thoughts after spending about an hour(?) with Curse of the Moon yesterday.
As mentioned, I only played the first half, so I have a lot left to go.

I'm generally very pleased with the game. It's nowhere near the quality of Castlevania 3 of course, but I'm usually not a fan of most of Inti's games, and this one is a huge step up from their standard. On the first stage I was worried, as it felt like the typical "hollow" uninspired level design of several of their other games, but it steps up a bit after that.

I'm surprised just *how much* is lifted directly from Castlevania, mostly in sense of enemy patterns (which are similar but oddly different from the originals - especially the "medusa heads" really confused me). That said, the similarities to Castlevania feel mostly referential, and playing the game feels like its own beast. There's a huge focus on the differences between each playable character, and I like how individual lifebars and being able to lose one forces you to switch it up, and learn each character's strengths and weaknesses. They are exactly as different *and* similar as they need to be for the game to accomodate each of them, and in a lot of ways I'm actually reminded of Little Samson/Lickle, which is absolutely a good thing. I also dig that upgrades are usually locked behind the requirement of a specific character, making keeping them all alive an important aspect, but never a requirement. All the different factors, such as branching paths and different subweapons for each character definitely gives a lot of interesting toys to play around with for someone looking to master the game, such as speedrunnners doing optimal routing.

On the flipside, being able to lose each character makes it extremely difficult to actually lose a life. In general the game feels very easy (though sufficiently challenging to be fun), and it sucks that the higher difficulties weren't available from the get go, but then again - this is only the first half of the game, and it can easily get harder before I reach the end.
Boss fights rely a lot on trial and error, but they are generally fun and don't overstay their welcome.

If I use the "curse of the moon" option to go back to a previous stage, do I still keep my extra characters and upgrades, and will I be able to go back to the one I had reached, or do I just reset all progress back to that stage?
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Marc »

Well I played through the first stage, and elected to replay it as I'd spotted a few things I presumed were accessible by other characters, but it wouldn't let me switch to the one I'd just unlocked, unless I'm missing something.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

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Yeah, there's at least one spot for Miriam to slide and one spot for bat-dude to fly. If the trick isn't using that option, I guess something else will present itself eventually.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Herr Schatten »

Still waiting for my (3DS) code. On my download page there's still nothing but the temporary steam key (which should be expired by now - haven't tried). Anyone having similar problems?
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Jonny2x4 »

Sumez wrote:I really wish people would stop using terms like "8-bit" or "16-bit" regarding graphics unless they are actually talking about color depth (which they aren't). The term has absolutely no meaning.
NES-style would be more accurate, but game designers don't want to ignite the wrath of Nintendo's lawyers.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

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Sumez wrote:I really wish people would stop using terms like "8-bit" or "16-bit" regarding graphics unless they are actually talking about color depth (which they aren't). The term has absolutely no meaning.
I feel the same way about "Q-tips" and "Saran Wrap". It's cotton swabs and plastic wrap (or cellophane wrap)... but hey, in the english language anything goes, and people know what you're talking about when you use these terms. So here we are.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

(I think you meant to quote a different part)

To be honest, no, I don't know what people mean. Different people seem to have vastly different ideas of what it means. Some people will call anything pixelated "8-bit", while others just count the number of colors. It's honestly really, really unclear.
One thing is for sure, it's never really used to cover anything that actually looks like it's doable on the NES, despite the NES usually being the go-to system for people's impressions of what 8-bit even is.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

Got time to finish off the game today. Overall I'm satisfied with the difficulty. It felt challenging without going into classic Inti memorization territory (except, again, from the bosses). They didn't really wimp it down for the casual audience (but included the "casual mode" option instead - I feel dirty just looking at it), however due to aforementioned design, actually losing a life really took effort, so I ended with a ton of lives in spare, and I'm glad Nightmare mode is there - played four stages of it, and even though the changes are actually really subtle, this feels like a much more balanced mode, more in line with traditional Castlevania.

Got a tip from a friend on how to unlock Ultimate mode, so gotta check that out later. Won't have time to play for at least another week though.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Turrican »

The stage design is bordering on excellent in this one. At first, you don't realize it, some sections (or "blocks" as they were known!) seems just put there as filler. However, play it à-la-Simon instead of Ralphie-and-friends, and suddenly you see that enemy placement, as well as subweapons placement, has been carefully planned.

But it's not only that, it feels structurally balanced in a way I thought they hadn't in them to make this good anymore. Therefore, the most tedious stages happen to lead to the most lenient boss fights, and vice-versa. Lose-a-life checkpoints differ from lose-an-ally chekpoints, and they also play a crucial part in the overall outcome. The result is one game that is difficult to put down: even at its most frustrating, you always come back to attempt another go at that stage.

It's probably absurd to say that the kickstarter has already fulfilled its goal with this game, but on the other hand, to think that this was made possible by crowdfunding is a bit shocking, as it's nothing like a nostalgia curio, it never feels like a gimmicky bonus to something else.

The game starts easy but believe me, trying to get some trophies will make things tricky well before approaching Ultimate mode.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by Sumez »

Turrican wrote: it's nothing like a nostalgia curio, it never feels like a gimmicky bonus to something else.
I completely agree with this. Ritual of the Night doesn't need to be any better than this to make me satisfied. Hell, all it really needs is just to not suck.
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Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.

Post by opt2not »

Sumez wrote:(I think you meant to quote a different part)
Whoops, fixed it. Sorry about that.
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