Phantasy Star Series

[Blinge]

It would be awesome to discuss this further face to face at the next London meet I can haul myself to, as there's nothing I like more than ranting on about games...

Heh, if you like. You're less blunt in person I think!

I only bought up FF6 because I feel it's outclassed in almost every possibly way by PS4.

Well my interest in 4 is definitely piqued now.

I think it was the time that fucking octopus jumped out in the middle of the opera house that I realised I didn't care much for it. Too many tonal changes without a developed exposition to back it up. I get the appeal of the world of ruin, but the narrative for me was already fragmented to an unsatisfactory level.

Good point; there's no arguing with this one. Maybe Square didn't have the cojones to go with the darker tone the game has half of the time and alienate their younger audience. The attempts at comic relief are pretty awful. FF6 Kinda began my journey through JRPGs so I wonder now if it still holds up, or whether problems like you've mentioned would grate too much.

I found Fallout 3 unplayable for similar reasons, much to the chagrin of seemingly everyone in the world ever, urgh.

Oh yeah? In the eternal war of Fo3 vs New Vegas I'm definitely in the latter camp. 3 started with that interesting vault life setpiece, and megaton was kinda cool, but other than that.. meh.

[Mischief Maker]

I only bought up FF6 because I feel it's outclassed in almost every possibly way by PS4.

Well my interest in 4 is definitely piqued now.

Yeah, as much as I slag PS4, it's definitely better than the Final Fantasies. I'm just historically grumpy at that game because it was probably the first time I got super hyped for an upcoming game (Nei's alive? How is that possible? And Wren, the only good part of PS3???), bought it for an exorbitant price, and was super disappointed because it wasn't even in the same (sub)genre as the PS2 I loved.

Also, I hate anime, and while PS2 was vague enough that I could fill in the blanks myself as having a competent team of badasses, in PS4 the awful characterisms were front and center, especially that fucking Dezo priest!

[Jonathan Ingram]

Too many tonal changes without a developed exposition to back it up.

These "tonal changes" are a genre commonality and a shared narrative element that add up to an unmistakably Japanese videogame experience. Final Fantasy VI would lose much of its character and appeal if it was stripped naked of them.

[BryanM]

Definitely. They just shoot a bukkake of stuff out of the screen to see what... sticks. Hate character X or his storyline? Hang in there, it'll be over soon and we'll be doing character Y instead.

It's wacky, but it's also a decent way to inject variety in there.



Also I also hate the space pope. The fluff and mechanics. Practically every character already has the capacity for healing already, is a battleship devoted entirely to making sure it's impossible for your team to die really necessary?

[Damocles]

Pfft. Raja was fine. Screw Hahn, though.

[Mischief Maker]

Too many tonal changes without a developed exposition to back it up.

These "tonal changes" are a genre commonality and a shared narrative element that add up to an unmistakably Japanese videogame experience. Final Fantasy VI would lose much of its character and appeal if it was stripped naked of them.

Is that really a Japanese cultural thing? Or just bad writing?

I'm not steeped in Japanese culture but I read a translation of Rashomon years ago and the plot to the stories had a clear theme without going off on absurd tangents and the characters were believably human and not a bunch of grimacing WACKY one-note stereotypes, and at no time did a character kick off a romance by accidentally walking in on a girl bathing and spazzing out.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Drama slipping into absurdity and back is a recurring element in Japanese pop culture (Japanese murder mystery game). Alfa System's Linda Cube is almost entirely built on this premise. It does not mean, however, that it has to permeate every piece of media. It all ultimately comes down to the creator's intentions. Patently, a game where you fight a deranged clown with a moogle in your party is going to take itself a lot less seriously and provides a much more welcoming context for tonal changes than a period drama film about human virtues and vices. What an absurd comparison to make. Final Fantasy VI is at its core a whimsical 16-bit RPG. It needs to be accepted for what it is rather than being picked on for what it isn't.

[MX7]

Tonal shifts are all well and good, and it's one of my favourite conventions across texts (judging by your Twin Peaks avatar I would guess you're partial to them also!) and there's loads of games and other media that handle them well. I'd be wary of referring to generic juxtaposition as an intrinsically Japanese narrative convention. FF6 is packed full of idiomatic paradigms, but this jack knifing is hardly limited to JRPGS, or indeed Japan.

Anyway, saying FF6 has inherent value as it follows established, even culturally ascribed narrative conventions doesn't cut it when every whimsical moment is a misfire and every tonal binary is turgid and uninteresting. I completely agree with your assertion that FF6 is what it is and we shouldn't necessarily automatically take a hermeneutic approach to absolutely everything. But when the funny bits aren't funny and when the dramatic bits lack bite, it doesn't really work as a whimsical RPG. I would argue there's much better RPGs of this era that mix the sublime and the ridiculous.

[Eno]

I've decided to play the classic games around last year since I noticed I... well, hadn't played them yet.

One was a really nice ride. I got stuck for a shameful amount of time in the beginning because I didn't knew NPCs would sometimes react differently when you spoke to them multiple times I did scum my way through a better part of the mid-late game with some easy grind, and I'm not sure, it seems from what I read they did tone down the difficulty(or at least gave the player way more resources) in the PS2 remake. That made the late game a bit more underwhelming than was intended.
Now dragging my way across PS2. Got the leaf and now I think I was supposed to begin the dams? I feel a bit relieved to see it took about one month for Blinge to go from about where I'm at to the end, I was afraid I'd had to commit to at least a yearlong journey to finish that one.

[Xyga]

^ Nope before the dams you grab the gum and 'dive' to Climatrol.

What I've read about the PS2 remake's difficulty is that enemies become tougher than the original (I think it happens later in the game) for balancing reasons.

[ED-057]

I feel like PS3 could have been epic, if more time had been put into it. Just look at the backstory. 1,000 years ago there was a war between Orakio and Laya. Then they disappeared mysteriously. Laya's companion Lune is banished to the moon. Orakio's companion Siren is banished to another moon. Miun is left to wander the desert for the rest of eternity. So what happened? And what instigated the war in the first place? Would have been interesting if such details were ever filled in. What caused Aquatica to become frozen over at the begnining of the game, setting Lyle on a quest to monkey with the weather control system with the side effect of waking Lune from cryogenic sleep?

[juonryu2nd]

Now dragging my way across PS2. Got the leaf and now I think I was supposed to begin the dams? I feel a bit relieved to see it took about one month for Blinge to go from about where I'm at to the end, I was afraid I'd had to commit to at least a yearlong journey to finish that one.

Combat difficulty is alright in that game, but man the dungeons are taxing on your sanity. I spent nearly 4 hours in that damn Climatrol. Which is where you're currently at, you use the leaf gum to reach it. Draw a good map, without it you'll probably wander in there forever.

[Eno]

^ Nope before the dams you grab the gum and 'dive' to Climatrol.

What I've read about the PS2 remake's difficulty is that enemies become tougher than the original (I think it happens later in the game) for balancing reasons.

Oh yes, it's been a while. I remember entering a dam but I think I found it by complete accident, I'm probably looking for Climatrol now.

That would make sense. I think I'll try the originals after I'm done with the series to see how different the remakes are.

Now dragging my way across PS2. Got the leaf and now I think I was supposed to begin the dams? I feel a bit relieved to see it took about one month for Blinge to go from about where I'm at to the end, I was afraid I'd had to commit to at least a yearlong journey to finish that one.

Combat difficulty is alright in that game, but man the dungeons are taxing on your sanity. I spent nearly 4 hours in that damn Climatrol. Which is where you're currently at, you use the leaf gum to reach it. Draw a good map, without it you'll probably wander in there forever.

Combat plays a big part in making the dungeons so taxing IMO. Areas only become somewhat trivial when you're in the next area already. Man, exploration would be so much easier if you didn't have to fear for your life every 10 steps and make trips to town every 100!
Thanks for the tip, not sure if I can draw a good map(the one I did for the Island happens to still be sitting around the desk, it's definitely not good!) but I'll try.

Incidentally, I also remembered how much that game annoys me, so hold tight for the ranty part:
- How bad the inventory, shop and equipment comparison systems are(they did wonderful ones for the PS1 remake, what the hell happened?)
- The bonus exp system essentially rewards you for brainlessly going all Lv3 attacks all the way if you can get away with it.
- Entering new areas make you have to push the direction you want to walk in again. What good is it preventing the revolving door loop of death if it screws with my speed throttling through the boring bits?

[GaijinPunch]

I'm just historically grumpy at that game because it was probably the first time I got super hyped for an upcoming game (Nei's alive? How is that possible? And Wren, the only good part of PS3???), bought it for an exorbitant price, and was super disappointed because it wasn't even in the same (sub)genre as the PS2 I loved.

My thoughts going from PS to PS2. It was a great game, but the first PS is still the best one of the series by a long shot. Pacing, music, dungeons... you name it. It's pretty much the single-most awe-inspiring 8-bit feat across all the systems to boot.

[Blinge]

So I've been playing PSIII. Just found out Lyle is a Layan.

It's alright..
Positives: the speed of the battles, the changes to battle system, the different backgrounds. Whole game seems to have a kind of post apocalyptic feel to it, one of mystery.

Negatives: lame monster animations compared to PSII. Towns all look the same, wheres muh techno? While I like the varying battle themes, overall the music seems worse. Getting poisoned a lot.
All this has probably been covered in the thread already.

[tribal_war]

III gets a bad rep (I can see why), but I kinda like it. The multiple endings, the generations aspect, the change of style. If it was called Phantasy Star Generations or whatever and not a numbered entry people would probably like it more.

[Captain]

Only thing 3 has wrong is the damn boring and unbalanced combat. And even without it it manages to grow on people.

Lots of wasted potential there.

[MX7]

I get why people don't like it, but I'm a big advocate of the PSIII soundtrack. It has this ghostly, clanging electronic quality that belies the fantasy setting. The opening theme in particular is absolutely gorgeous, and one of the best chiptune ever created. Of course Numata really outdid herself with IV, which is sort of flawless, but III is a rough gem, and I love the fact it's not trying to sound like anything other than a Mega Drive game.

[Blinge]

Okay well I'm definitely with you on the opening theme being good. In fact I do like the battle themes, especially the more desperate ones.
Haha actually when I saw the first battle screen on the plains outside the first town, with the scrolling clouds and that very metallic battle intro tune.. I thought "This is the most Megadrive RPG I've ever seen."

Did you play the whole game, M?

[Mischief Maker]

Did you play the whole game, M?

I played through, I think, three of the four endings as a teenager before I just got sick of it and quit. It's an ugly game with a shallow storyline that stinks. Phantasy Star 3 most definitely deserves its bad rap. It was a rushed and sloppy game shoved out in a hurry to take advantage of PS2's success.

[Blinge]

FUCK THIS SANDBAR


You heard.
I went and did the thing for the sandbar to appear, stood around the bottom of that screenshot and thought "oh. where's this bloody sandbar then?" Wandered about, figured I must not have saved the game last time as it's been a while since I played.
Crossed the ocean, went through the dungeon, crossed the desert, traversed another dungeon to get to the machine.
(The machine to do the thing to get the sandbar to appear )

Turns out I had done it.. Exited the dungeon, crossed the desert, went back through the other dungeon, crossed the ocean. All while mashing through random encounters.
Turns out you have to stand right next to the sandbar for it to appear. Because game logic.

[MR_Soren]

My sister had Phantasy Star III and Phantasy Star IV when we were younger. I never played PSIII much past the start of the second generation. The game seemed a bit too bland and slow. Phantasy Star IV was really fun though, and I remember that I beat the game.

About a week ago, I picked up Phantasy Star IV on eBay. I played a bit while my wife was watching, and she was really into it and wants to watch me play through the whole game. Since she liked it so much, I just ordered Phantasy Star II and III on eBay. They haven't arrived yet. I'm wondering if I should do them in order, or finish my playthrough of IV first. (Still at the beginning of IV.)

It seems like the rest of the Phantasy Star games are online MMORPGs which I don't allow myself to play. That's a shame. The game systems in Phantasy Star IV are very well-crafted, it would have been nice to see another game in that style.

[Strider77]

I would say you should play 2 beforehand. It's not needed but 4 has moments that would impact more if you had.

[ZacharyB]

Speaking of that, an English fan translation of the Phantasy Star 2 remake on PS2 was just completed: http://www.romhacking.net/translations/2505/

[Blinge]

^Awesome, I'll check that out some day.

So I'm on the second generation of PSIII.
Just the backtracking from my previous post has really hammered home how the game is worse than its predecessors. Sure half that backtracking was my own fault, but usually I don't mind backtracking in games. RPGs with random encounters are a different matter however.
I appreciate the menu/shop improvements but even the menus look somewhat ugly. I liked the flashing red button from PSII's UI, it was a bit more sci-fi flavour. It seems odd that i'd be so focused on menu presentation but you do spend a lot of time navigating this stuff.
I like the geopolitics involved with the story I guess, sometimes I feel there isn't enough of that in non-tactical RPG. High(er) tech Orakkians vs the more bio based Layans.

Spoiler

I chose to marry Maia because she was the exotic broad i'd spent so long chasing, I wasn't about to go back to the other girl..I can't even remember where I learned that she was to be Rhys' bride before Maia washed up.

It's kinda funny how Rhys has to renounce his claim to the Orakkian throne just to get a bit of Layan pussy. I mean we just waltzed in and beat the shit out of Cille's king in order to get her back.. Surely from this point Rhys can call the shots.

One thing about the previous generation being the rulers of 2nd generation is that it gives me personal investment in the fates of the Layan (and Orakkian, I assume) people.
Ayn looks more like Lyle's son than Rhys', though. Maybe something fishy is going on..

[Xyga]

Speaking of that, an English fan translation of the Phantasy Star 2 remake on PS2 was just completed: http://www.romhacking.net/translations/2505/

Missed that !
Cool, I was waiting for it.

[Blinge]

Oh Good lord, 2nd generation and I have to backtrack through that same fucking dungeon AGAIN.
This game is teh suck.

[Xyga]

Ha ha yeah it's a frustrating game, but it gets better later.
Only, it's been a long time, but I recall not all scenarios lead to equally interesting stories/party/world configuration and endings.
Only a couple are really worth it I think, and it was advised to make a wise use the two memory slots for that purpose (saving at one particular point before a marriage so you won't have to do the same two gens again).

[Squire Grooktook]

Intrigued by all the new bosses (one of which sports a remix of PS4's "ooze") and shit they added recently, I decided to jump into PSO2 again today for the first time in about a year. The English launcher still works fine, and the VPN/Proxy it uses is still enough to get through the western internet provider fuck up that's been present ever since that unholy DDOS attack that crashed all the servers last year.

One thing that really blew my mind is realizing how similar the games combat engine is to Sega's PS2 Shinobi, now that I've played that one. The evade/dash move's length/momentum/physics are almost the same, the attack's have a similar cancel window and speed, it has a similar emphasis on speed killing, etc. I should really look through the staff of both games and see if they shared any personnel on the combat/design fronts. It would be a really pleasant surprise to find out that they did.

I was playing Braver/Hunter last time (Speedy Samurai with powerhouse warrior sub class, for the uninitiated), but decided to switch over to Bouncer/Braver (Jet Boots equipped magic knight) since I think Jet Boots are the most fun weapons and I was only using the previous class combo to appease my min-maxing obsessed friends. I was pretty pleasently surprised by how fast things died to good combos: I seem to recall normal enemies being tankier, but even under-leveled and with shitty gear you can take things down like zakos in a shmup with some finesse. Not sure how my damage holds up against bosses though, as one of them killed me before I had a chance to find out X_X

[Blinge]

Ha ha yeah it's a frustrating game, but it gets better later.
Only, it's been a long time, but I recall not all scenarios lead to equally interesting stories/party/world configuration and endings.
Only a couple are really worth it I think, and it was advised to make a wise use the two memory slots for that purpose (saving at one particular point before a marriage so you won't have to do the same two gens again).

Ah well, I was just gonna play naturally and go with whatever scenarios/endings I came to. No desire to play the game more than once.
I'll accept hints towards better paths though! I'm still on Ayn's story.

Also man magic seems rubbish in this game.