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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:39 am 


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[LARGE RANT / DESIGN RAMBLING INCOMING]


One of my biggest mistakes I made with trying YS 8 was revisiting Phantasy Star Online 2 at the same time, because PSO2's combat is basically what NuYs combat would be if it was more thoughtfully designed. The two contrast eachother disturbingly.

Like most modern 3d hack and slash / character action games, both games defensive/evasive aspects that are built around an invincible block/dodge move. They also both have normal moves that build special meter and special moves that consume special meter.

The main difference is that in PSO2 the special moves are actually interesting.

All of them are distinguished not just by damage but also by utility. Some of them have i-frames in different spots, some of them have better range than others or allow you to attack from unique angles, some of them have mobility uses like dashing across the screen to close distance or putting you above the boss to hover over hazards, some of them create lingering explosions that hang in the air and do continuous damage (useful if you know the boss isn't going to be moving for a few seconds), some of them are slow and leave you incredibly vulnerable but are extremely rewarding to execute, etc.

There's actually like, strategy to them and you can use them in your offensive/defensive game in creative ways. It's sorta like Devil May Cry in that, yeah, you could just perfect parry or dodge-roll everything...but it's much more fun, stylish, and rewarding to keep the offense up constantly with creative strategies like teleporting above an enemy and air dashing off their head as they do a low strike, sliding behind them to avoid a frontal one, or chaining to the invincible finisher in your combo just as they're about to let loose.

In addition, PSO2 further redresses the whole "stand in front of the boss and parry -> unload your most damaging skills -> repeat" flow by placing numerous weakpoints across boss bodies (and sometimes apart from them in the form of hovering bits or detached parts) that you have to constantly move around to hit for bonus damage and stuns. Often times these weakpoints are placed high up on larger bosses bodies so you have to do a fair bit of platforming or 3 dimensional movement to reach them.

Now I'm not here to ramble about how great PSO2's combat is, but contrast it to YS:

One of the things that really struck me when playing through YS Seven is that there are almost no invincibility frames on any of the specials (I think some of the very late-game ultimate ones do, but by then it's too little too late). Even skills that looked like they should be invincible (IE Adol's early-ish jumping slash skill, which in a grounded game with no jump button looks like it would function as an invulnerable trump) were not when tested. Likewise most of them only do marginal extra damage compared to charge attacks outside of a flash guard sustained crit, and other advantages like range or speed were mostly insubstantial. This seems co have carried over to YS 8 so far.

It's very strange to me that Falcom seems utterly resistant to skills in NuYs having any other utility or depth beyond simply being EXTRA meter builders. It's the complete opposite philosophy of Oath/Origin where each of the magics had some utility (wind let you hover in the air and damage things 360, fire was ranged, earth had i-frames, etc.)

My only guess is that Falcom fears that if they give any one non-final-dungeon-acquired skill any kind of significant utility advantage, players will not want to switch it out when they unlock the next equivalent on the laundry list. I think that perhaps they intend for skills to enhance the visual variety of the game by having the party members constantly using new flashy animations throughout the entire course of the game, and so they intentionally make all the skills mechanically interchangeable so that you won't feel bad for switching to the next one. In other words, it's deliberately shallow.



AHEM [/RANT]

Other than the combat being shallow, I am enjoying YS 8 for the sense of adventure and the typical light hearted charm that Sumez has described. It's cute. I hope there's more platforming later on because I really do like running and jumping.

But I still do not like the combat one bit.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:36 am 


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Alright, near the start of chapter 3. Exploring Gen'darmes and just recruited hammer loli.

Overall...warming up to the game quite a bit. NOT the combat still, or rather not the boss fights. But I'm thoroughly enjoying everything else. Some of my diary thoughts/ramblings for whoever may be interested:


+Exploration is very fun. Some people have complained about not being able to jump over barriers or go anywhere ala Breath of The Wild, but I feel the game strikes a very nice balance between wide open adventure and more arcadey "rooms", especially now that jumping (which adds a LOT) and more 3-dimensional terrain are in, as well as the huge metroidvania-esque world layout wherein you're constantly revisiting old areas to open up new paths. In comparison I think YS 7 suffered because it was stuck in this awkward middleground halfway between the Oath/Origin' trilogies tight linear gauntlets and halfway between something more adventurous, and it ultimately got the worst of both worlds (lost all the platforming challenges but couldn't disguise that every area was just a bunch of arenas and walkways strung together).

+I'm enjoying the combat against regular enemies. The whole "it's all the same" flashguard issue feels less grating when each "encounter" is over in a second anyway. With running and jumping back in the mix for traveling through more involved environments, the quick hit and run zako battles feel more like a welcome diversion than an annoyance like they did in 7. I also like how glass-cannon both you and enemies are on nightmare: it creates kind of an oldschool rpg loop of "explore new area until a party member dies > retreat > return with better knowledge of enemies and get farther in > repeat".

+I'm actually glad the game lets you stockpile healing items because I still don't like the boss fights and feel that it's the one place where the combat's ultimate shallowness shines through, so I'm actually glad to power through them by memorizing the parry timings as fast as possible and spamming healing items. No fucks given. I'm even tempted to lower the difficulty from nightmare for them, I want to get through so fast, but some minor amount of irrational pride keeps me from going that far. One thing I will say though in the favor of the boss fights (compared to YS 7 again) is that at least the animations, perspectives, and hitboxes are polished enough that flashguarding actually feels intuitive and consistent.

+With YS 7 I felt a lot of the shit layered on top of the basic systems - like crafting - was just unnecessary complication that slowed the game down...here, it's hard to nail down but I feel like the breadth of sidequests and content actually adds to the game and the more adventure/exploration oriented gameplay. There's more a sense of variety between all the different things you can do and pursue, and as a result I feel that all the extraneous crap actually does make the game feel more engaging for once.

+The presentation is what ties it all together. If this was a western rpg with ugly characters talking about how much life sucks in a grimy medieval shithole setting, I'd have chucked it all straight in the garbage. But I'm not afraid to say I enjoy the colorful character designs and setting, the soundtrack, and the typically earnest and endearing mood of Falcom's story/characters where it's cliched and anime and silly but the game goes so absolutely all in on those cliches that it loops around and feels charming and iconic.

So overall it's become one of those games where when I put it down, I'm already eager for the next play session.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:30 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Alright, near the start of chapter 3. Exploring Gen'darmes and just recruited hammer loli.

Alright you're almost at the part where the game starts to get good :3
I was seriously doubtful about it until after I passed through Gens d'armes


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:37 pm 


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Yeah it's been veeerry steadily growing on me. Kind of the opposite of Seven where I started out enthused but gradually became more apathetic as it progressed and the annoyances piled up.

Anyway my biggest wishlist thing right now is basically just "more platforming".

My favorite parts so far have been like...that part in the woods where some surfaces are made out of collapsing branches (reminds me of the collapsing floors in Felghana's Valestein Castle), or hopping from landmass to landmass in the first part of the bog. So far I like that Gendarme's has tons of rolling boulders and shit like that.

But I already feel that the different perspective, running/jumping, and height elevations make areas in this game feel less sterile than the grids of little enemy platforms that made up all of Seven's dungeons.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:25 pm 


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It definitely has quite a bit of charm. I listed some of my annoyances awhile back but it is a game I finished. Would I replay it probably no but it was worth finishing to me.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 am 


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Some new Ys 9 stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDcgph2v8-c

Definitely a lot more verticality in this game. Combat doesn't look too interesting though. Too early to really tell I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:21 pm 


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Man, that character design makes me want to vomit. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:48 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Too early to really tell I guess.

I suppose we can't know until we try it for ourselves, but the game's out in Japan in less than a month, I doubt too much is going to change between now and then.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:19 pm 


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drauch wrote:
Man, that character design makes me want to vomit. :shock:

It's getting as bad as the rest of the industry does to please otakus, unfortunately. In five years or so, there will be pantyshots galore. :lol:
Falcom is going too fast now, though. I thought they would do a Y's V remake before going to IX.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:40 pm 


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drauch wrote:
Man, that character design makes me want to vomit. :shock:

Adol in full husbando mode
(he kinda was already in 8 and in his portrait in Moc and 7 I guess, but now with the emo haircut it's just full-on, unapologetic husbando pleaser)


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:39 am 


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I like the design personally, but I can see why others wouldn't.

I honestly loved the hell out of Ys VIII and am looking forward to this one


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:10 am 


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Dawn of YS.

Man this game is a lot bigger than I thought. I'm losing track of where I've been, what to do. And keep falling asleep while playing in the evening haha.
Also being able to explain like 2 Japanese spoken words doesn't help either :lol:

Can see why people prefer it to Mask though!
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:25 pm 


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The game has a fan translation brother blinge.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:08 am 


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Chapter 5 of Ys 8.

One thing I will say about the combat is that it feels less grating when you think of it as a purely defensive game. Earlier I criticized the fact that none of the skills have i-frames, which limits their utility/variety and the potential for creativity available to the player, but when you realize that you can only flash guard during normal attacks...it kinda makes sense. I mean, it's still a bad and limiting choice imo, but if you think of it as simulating an extreme stonewall, paladin sort of playstyle (if you've played a fighting game with a turtle strategy or a counter oriented character, imagine something like that. Wearing the enemy down with safe normal attacks for mere chip damage and patiently waiting for the big punish)...it sort of makes sense and feels a little bit more intuitive and immersive.

Still can't quite fend off the repetition issues in boss fights though. But the adventure/exploration is where it's really at: I love how vastly the game expands and breaks open once you get more free access to Dana's world and her side quests and optional dungeon. I'm on the third floor of said dungeon right now, and I'm really enjoying how three dimensional and platforming heavy the rooms are getting.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:47 am 


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Trails of Cold Steel III's demo is now up on PSN. It's the full Prologue, and so far the localisation seems to be good. Maybe NISA have gotten their stuff together now? Let's just hope the rest of the game is on this level.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:41 am 


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Yeah, Dana's dungeon is one of my favourite parts of the game. I can't believe it wasn't in the original version.
I think her entire story is what eventually sold me on Ys 8. Falcom really didn't hold back with that one.


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:56 pm 


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gameoverDude wrote:
Trails of Cold Steel III's demo is now up on PSN. It's the full Prologue, and so far the localisation seems to be good. Maybe NISA have gotten their stuff together now? Let's just hope the rest of the game is on this level.


That sounds promising, at least.


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:27 am 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
The game has a fan translation brother blinge.


Even for the Voice lines ?
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:19 pm 


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Yes, dubbed and everything
http://www.ysutopia.net/projects/ys4/
damn, they deleted the release trailer from yt


Finally playing the Cold Steel series, i'm loving CS1 so far, hope it's not as shit as fans say.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:06 pm 


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Well shit. wish i'd found this before.
I'm not replaying it now.
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:49 pm 


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KAI wrote:
Finally playing the Cold Steel series, i'm loving CS1 so far, hope it's not as shit as fans say.


I think it's fine, just as good as TiTS but this is a sacrilegious comment that will probably get me banned from this thread. It gets a bit text heavy (like TiTS) but I enjoyed it throughout.

Blinge wrote:
Well shit. wish i'd found this before.
I'm not replaying it now.


Should have asked. :p

But yeah it's a really fun game!
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:58 pm 


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Nah I just want it to be over now.
I enjoyed a lot of it but i'm utterly fed up of being lost in a labyrinth and having to stand around waiting to heal quite often.

In fact, i've been looking at a walkthrough now, supposedly i've missed the best armour in the game. However I've tried the bit about the bird later on and it just doesn't work.

Spoiler: show
What you need is an invisibility potion. In order to get this, you
need to talk to Banjo, who is now in Arieda at the northeast corner of
town. To obtain the Clear Potion which will make you temporarily
invisible, you need the two leftmost items on her ingredients list.
The second one, Batou's Ash, can be easily purchased. The first you
may have a bit of a time with, since you may not remember where you got
it originally. But after much searching, I've found out. If you don't
have it, warp back to Promarock and head out of the town. Summon Ruse
to the tree just outside the town, and he will bring you the item you
need. Now head over to Banjo and get her to make that potion!
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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:45 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Nah I just want it to be over now.
I enjoyed a lot of it but i'm utterly fed up of being lost in a labyrinth and having to stand around waiting to heal quite often.

That's how I felt about Dawn of Ys as well. Way too many mazes with nothing interesting in them.


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:33 pm 


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So I wanted to expand a bit on what I said YS 7 vs YS 8.

I think the key reason 8 works while 7 doesn't is because 7 is stuck in an extremely awkward middle ground between the arcadey style of the Oath/Origin Trilogy and a more modern JRPG structure, while 8 fully embraces the latter.

-So 7 went 3d but played even more 2d than previous games due to ditching the jump button, except now you have to deal with depth perception issues when trying to dodge or parry projectiles due to the slightly angled camera angles and perspectives.
-It lost all the variety that jumping brought to terrain and that manual dodging brought to combat, but it couldn't disguise the fact that every overworld path and dungeon was essentianlly just a linear gauntlet of tiny monster arenas.
-It had just enough story and modern rpg elements like crafting to slow down the action but not enough to make you care.

7 is just a really awkward transitional phase that got the worst of both worlds.

8 on the other hand is an adventure game first and foremost, and because it seems to understand this and the new audience it's going for, it works. It's totally focused on fast paced action-exploration, discovery, and just being charming, and beyond the first chapter or two it's designed perfectly around those things.

I still think the bosses are the one part of the game that are super fucked though. If I had to redesign the combat system (with as small changes as possible), here's how I'd probably do it fix that issue:

-Make it so that you can't flashguard during skills *or* normal attacks. If you're always going to be flash guarding everything, might as well add a little bit of strategy in anticipating enemy attacks and when it's safe to attack, rather than just constant mashing. Not to mention the current set up (wherein you can only flashguard during normals but not skills) biases everything towards only using skills as punishes.

-Make it so flashguard does not give a crit bonus. It pretty much negates any reason to use skills outside of flashguard counters, which is one of several reasons for them being fucked. Negating an attack and getting a free safe counter-attack is a large enough reward for pulling it off anyway, but if you do need an additional reward maybe just refill the skill meter a bit.

-Give some carefully determined i-frames to most skills. This will give them some genuine utility beyond just punishes, and allow them to be used as a creative alternative way to evade damage compared to just flashguarding everything.

-Make EXTRA fill faster from the get go, and balance it around an offensive vs defensive playstyle. IE if you play it the current optimal way and only do safe-ish normal attacks outside of flash guard, and then only use skills to punish while invincible, you'll only build up enough EXTRA for one or two shots during a boss fight. But if you go more risky and use Skills even outside of flash guard invincibility (which would be risky due to how long they are but less of an awful move now without the crit bonuses), you'll be able to launch EXTRA's a ton.

There, I fixed the game. You're welcome.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:27 pm 



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Big fan of the older games (especially Oath and Origin), but what I've seen of the newer ones really puts me off. Iframes out the ass, and while I'm sure the bosses are fine, they don't look like Ys bosses to me. (Slow, telegraphed melee swings and simple AoE moves? What is this, Dark Souls? What happened to my danmaku bullet patterns and laser spam? :P) Is that flash guard move at least more technical than it appears to be, so you actually have to move out of the way of something every once in a while?


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:30 am 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
KAI wrote:
Finally playing the Cold Steel series, i'm loving CS1 so far, hope it's not as shit as fans say.


I think it's fine, just as good as TiTS but this is a sacrilegious comment that will probably get me banned from this thread. It gets a bit text heavy (like TiTS) but I enjoyed it throughout.

I don't think ED8 is bad compared to ED6. The plot kind of jumps the shark IMO. But gameplay-wise I'd say ED8 has the better battle system, while having the worse running-back-and-forth-to-talk-to-NPCs system (due to being forced to play with a keyboard and mouse, as if I were playing an FPS...)

ED7 bests them both!


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:06 am 


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HELLEPHANT wrote:
(Slow, telegraphed melee swings and simple AoE moves? What is this, Dark Souls?


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:58 pm 



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Blinge wrote:



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Nah, that wasn't a dig at DS, I just came expecting something a little more face-melting :P

Still, probably earlygame woes. I went and spoiled some of the later bosses for myself and thought they were quite Ysy. Well, would be, if it weren't for those insane iframes from the flash moves. Those are where stem my reservations about getting the games, even the earth magic from Oath was too much for me at times. No-damaging a boss without even moving half the fight? Blasphemy :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:40 am 


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HELLEPHANT wrote:
Big fan of the older games (especially Oath and Origin), but what I've seen of the newer ones really puts me off. Iframes out the ass, and while I'm sure the bosses are fine, they don't look like Ys bosses to me. (Slow, telegraphed melee swings and simple AoE moves? What is this, Dark Souls? What happened to my danmaku bullet patterns and laser spam? :P) Is that flash guard move at least more technical than it appears to be, so you actually have to move out of the way of something every once in a while?


Sadly Flash Guard is purely a timing challenge, which inherently makes it less involved compared to the intense dodging of Oath/Origin.

I can't really fault them too much for including a mechanic like this, because it's a pretty natural choice for the shift towards true 3d. Depth perception being what it is, most 3d hack and slash / character action games tend to opt for something similar, with rare exceptions.

It's not all bad though. YS 7 (and Celceta, from what I hear) are pretty boring due to essentially playing like Felghana/Origin but with all the things that made those games fun surgically excised. 8 on the other hand is extremely enjoyable if you treat it as more a traditional adventure game / rpg, just one that moves at an extremely fast pace and has the characteristic Falcom charm.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: FALCOM Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:19 pm 


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I view MoC and VIII similarly overall. Good enough for me to play through once.
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