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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:15 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
Ah? Maybe I should give the Golden Axe sequels a chance, can't say I gave them a fair one when I was a kid.


Note that the arcade Revenge of Death Adder is a completely separate thing from the MD GA2 & GA3. Annoyingly, Sega never bothered porting it anywhere. It always looked pretty neat to me. Even kept the Rambo Death Sounds cruelly denied the MD games!

Also MD GA3 is nowhere as likable as GA2, despite having The Pumaman. Image Man this takes me back, I've got a cracking sequel in my head starring him, his fated rival EAGLEMAN, and my lame OCs ELEPHANTMAN and MINOTAURMAN.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:19 am 


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I have a soft spot for MD GA3. Yeah, it's repetitive, and yeah, it needs more enemy types and better graphics, but I'll be damned if the music isn't great, the gameplay fun, and the branching paths cool. It doesn't deserve have the hate that gets thrown at it, that's for sure.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:15 am 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
I still like Fire Emblem but it's really not the same now, it's way too easy.


I've heard there's a massive rift in the community in this brave new era of waifus, but wasn't the difficulty in those games often and still elective? Even in Gaiden on the NES, they had repeatable farm maps to class change all the garbo villager NPCs the game gives ya. It's only the new perma-death switch that's really changed, non?


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:09 am 


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BryanM wrote:
I've heard there's a massive rift in the community in this brave new era of waifus, but wasn't the difficulty in those games often and still elective? Even in Gaiden on the NES, they had repeatable farm maps to class change all the garbo villager NPCs the game gives ya. It's only the new perma-death switch that's really changed, non?


But they dropped that mechanic and didn't reuse it until, I believe, Sacred Stones. Restricted grinding was the norm. My stance is that the series has always had fairly serious problems, but everything I've read about Awakening suggests they've moved a long way in the wrong direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:29 am 


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BryanM wrote:
Steamflogger Boss wrote:
I still like Fire Emblem but it's really not the same now, it's way too easy.


I've heard there's a massive rift in the community in this brave new era of waifus, but wasn't the difficulty in those games often and still elective? Even in Gaiden on the NES, they had repeatable farm maps to class change all the garbo villager NPCs the game gives ya. It's only the new perma-death switch that's really changed, non?


If you can I never noticed how in most of them.

@Vanguard: Yeah they had to make Awakening a big success to keep the series going which they did. They made it much more accessible while sacrificing a lot imo. I'm still not sure if I'm going to play Three Houses.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:41 am 


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Is there anything sacrificed? Can you go into that a bit? Permanent death is elective. The Hard and Lunatic modes are certainly somewhat abrasive. I'm honestly not deep enough in the series to know if there was a change forced on anyone, besides perhaps more focus on the dating sim side game.

Besides meta real-life social stuff like "casual scrubs having fun wrong" jamming up forums with posts about their imaginary girlfriend of choice?


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:23 am 


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Vanguard wrote:
+
Time limits, especially in nonlinear games and games where taking it slow is inherently advantageous, such as RPGs. Tons of common design problems vanish into smoke with a time limit. Even generous time limits make it feel like you're being rewarded for finding efficient ways to achieve your goals. I prefer game-long time limits where wasting time in stage 1 costs you in stage 5, but conventional stage-by-stage time limits are still good.


I like this on paper, but it has the inherent issue of the player being sort of in the dark about how well they are doing, especially for longer lasting time limits, like your 5 stage example.
Like, until you are super familiar with the game you can't be certain of how much leeway you have unless the game has some clever way of signaling that. How much of the stage is left? Is there a boss fight coming up that will demand a huge chunk of your time? Etc. It works for shorter arcade games, but I don't see it as a good thing in RPGs, etc.
And if the time limit is a game over scenario, you can be a dead man walking already by stage 3 of 10 without even knowing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:59 am 


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BryanM wrote:
Is there anything sacrificed? Can you go into that a bit? Permanent death is elective. The Hard and Lunatic modes are certainly somewhat abrasive. I'm honestly not deep enough in the series to know if there was a change forced on anyone, besides perhaps more focus on the dating sim side game.

Besides meta real-life social stuff like "casual scrubs having fun wrong" jamming up forums with posts about their imaginary girlfriend of choice?

I
You might be right. I can't even think straight atm so I'll get back to you on this.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:27 pm 


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THE BALLS ON THIS PRICK wrote:
I'm 99% sure, though it's been a while, that the Metal Slugs' ducking animation works similarly to Bloodlines' turning. Marco takes a few frames to visibly balk in alarm before getting his head down, but I'm pretty sure he's mechanically in crouch position from the next frame. I know for sure they take the same approach as BL to turning frames.


Confirming this BTW. Falsificare kneejerkers kiss my ass. 凸(`ω´メ)

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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:48 am 


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Sumez wrote:
I like this on paper, but it has the inherent issue of the player being sort of in the dark about how well they are doing, especially for longer lasting time limits, like your 5 stage example.
Like, until you are super familiar with the game you can't be certain of how much leeway you have unless the game has some clever way of signaling that. How much of the stage is left? Is there a boss fight coming up that will demand a huge chunk of your time? Etc. It works for shorter arcade games, but I don't see it as a good thing in RPGs, etc.
And if the time limit is a game over scenario, you can be a dead man walking already by stage 3 of 10 without even knowing it.


When you play a game for the first time, being in the dark about how well you're doing is perfectly normal, especially if it's an arcade game. The intimidation and uncertainty that come with running out of time are part of the appeal.

A time limit in a long game does come with the possibility of a save file becoming unsalveagable, and understandably lots of people don't want that. Though I'd totally be down for a dungeon crawler where you have to get everything done in X trips, to encourage you to stretch your resources as far as they can go every time. Or one where the dungeon fills with poison gas or whatever after a certain amount of time, and you have to get in, do what you came for, and get out before that happens. Maybe put the entrance and exit in different places so that even the shortest possible trip involves some peril. A long game could be broken up into a series of timed segments, maybe only allow saving outside of timed segments. Maybe if the player gets a game over from timing out, reset them to the beginning of the last timed segment. You could let them keep their exp/items if you want to make it less frustrating, but imo that'd defeat the purpose. You could also include a game-long time limit that doesn't outright kill you for failing.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:28 am 


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Obviously I'm not all opposed to time limits, especially in arcade games. One of my favourites that I keep bringing up is Rainbow Islands, and that game is designed completely around the fact that the rising water will keep you moving upwards.
Surprisingly that time limit isn't as "soft" as the typical Taito standard, most famous in the form of the Bubble Bobble skel-monsta that'll give you a hard time when you dawdle or struggle, but not alright kill you. At least not right away. In that way you'll always be able to finish off the stage if you're in a decent position to do so. In Rainbow Islands you can't really escape the water no matter how fast you scroll that screen. If you aren't able to make it to the top in time it'll always get you.

But the "make it through the dungeon in X tries" example is pretty much exactly where I see the problem. You have a finite amount of resources, but no knowledge of how much you'll realistically need. At least in an arcade action game there's a bit of a mutual understanding that as long as you move ahead at a brisk pace and never dawdle too much, you should probably have enough time.
That said, I still see the appeal, and for shorter challenges designed around and expectation of the player repeating it over and over (like.. an arcade game) I can see it working.

Vanguard wrote:
You could also include a game-long time limit that doesn't outright kill you for failing.

The SNES version of Prince of Persia does exactly this. Unlike the original game, you get two hours for the full game, which is also much larger. So replaying that over and over to practice the later stages would get tediously quickly. Instead the game makes it clear that your time is up, and allow you to continue playing so you get to know the stages - but once you reach the final boss, he won't be there.

Too bad the save system essentially breaks the time limit mechanic - a player will have to restrain him- og herself to not save scum every stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:24 pm 


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In a game where you have multiple shot types as well as multiple power levels to build, I prefer it when grabbing a different weapon still raises shot power +1 instead of only switching type. It means you can recover from a death more smoothly if need be without having to wait for weapon icons to rotate to the one you are currently using.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:41 pm 


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RE: Fire Emblem

Awakening gets far more flack than it deserves.

It returns to the free grinding approach of Sacred Stones and Gaiden (which I don't like), but it has fairly strong map design...in fact I'd say it's a far superior game to Sacred Stones on that front.

Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest might have some of the strongest map design and mechanics in the franichse, in addition to returning to the no-grinding-allowed linear campaign format. Sadly, it's the game that taught me that I can't get into an rpg if I completely and earnestly hate the aesthetic, characters, and setting. A shame.

Haven't tried Three Houses yet.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:55 am 


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I enjoyed Awakening tbc.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:26 pm 


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Good: When a game has multiple weapon types to pickup, as well as increasing power levels for each weapon, picking up a different weapon raises your overall power level by 1, meaning if you accidentally grab a different weapon, you don't lose a potential power upgrade. This is helpful if the game spawns large clouds of weapon pickups along with bombs or other items and you need to rush in to grab something after dying, you don't have to wait methodically for weapons to cycle to collect the same one repeatedly to powerup.

Bad: When a beat em up requires a tap to turn around before a double tap will register a dash. This is only the case in Streets of Rage 2 as far as I'm aware, where to use a Blitz you have to double tap forward twice, but if you want to use it in the opposite direction, you have to tap three times (first to turn around, then twice to input the move). I'm in the habit now of tapping forward three times in SoR2 just to make sure I don't forget, but it's not an issue in SoR3 or SoRR.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:49 am 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Good: When a game has multiple weapon types to pickup, as well as increasing power levels for each weapon, picking up a different weapon raises your overall power level by 1, meaning if you accidentally grab a different weapon, you don't lose a potential power upgrade. This is helpful if the game spawns large clouds of weapon pickups along with bombs or other items and you need to rush in to grab something after dying, you don't have to wait methodically for weapons to cycle to collect the same one repeatedly to powerup.


Same. Override on PCE works this way, which also lets you gain levels while enjoying its neat Image Fight-esque arsenal. The Raiden method's discipline can work for me in the right sort of game (Raiden, basically Image), but it's pure stricture and can easily annoy in breezier material.

Quote:
Bad: When a beat em up requires a tap to turn around before a double tap will register a dash. This is only the case in Streets of Rage 2 as far as I'm aware, where to use a Blitz you have to double tap forward twice, but if you want to use it in the opposite direction, you have to tap three times (first to turn around, then twice to input the move). I'm in the habit now of tapping forward three times in SoR2 just to make sure I don't forget, but it's not an issue in SoR3 or SoRR.


I distinctly recall noticing this in SOR2 and being surprised, given the game's incredibly polished handling otherwise. Not a game-killer or anything, but unexpected coming in from the third entry.

Sidescrolling, rather than beltscrolling, but: SOTN's Richter, as well as his apparent copy/paste Nathan from Circle of the Moon, have the absolute best double-tap run inputs I've seen. You can actually hit opposing directions to start a dash - a flick of the d-pad will suffice. I especially like being able to press a whip attack to the limit, tapping towards the enemy, before sprinting back at the last possible moment - much snappier than two "away" inputs. This goes really well with COTM's awesome Mars Unicorn sword, which gets a huge damage boost at pointblank. Run a Were-Bear through, then dash out of claw range and stick 'em for the finish.

Additionally, you can pivot the dash itself with a quick about-face, and you also maintain dash state on jump landings - so you can cover tons of ground per input, both horizontally and vertically. Besides minimising repetitive double-taps, it makes simply dashing and bounding from A to B entertaining in its own right. Although neither game has inertia, the ease of maintaining a dash gives a keen sense of momentum.

For the ultimate efficiency, I wish more sidescrollers had experimented with Kaze Kiri (PCE-CD)'s approach. Dash is simply [diagonal up] there. Could see it being annoying in the wrong context, say in especially prickly 1HKOs. But in that game's easy-going Spartan X format, it works great.

===

WARNING: WILLY_RZR'S GOODTIME SIDESCROLLER SHACK IS ROLLING UP FAST

After much consideration, I am good with Gradius-style Option trails in sidescrolling action/platformers. Gravity puts a very different spin on the mechanic, when you're not able to just zip up and down the Y-axis at will. Image Saigo no Nindou is a very good example! It works ESPECIALLY well with its super-fine height and momentum control!

I want to bayonet this big bitch right in his face, without his great big fuckoff Muramasa eating up all my DPS!
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Aww sheeit, too bad your infernally deadly homing attack has a right arse of a time hitting me at this angle, BONEY-sama!
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It's commonly said Ninja Gaiden II ripped off Saigo's Option shadows, to the letter. However, there's a critical distinction: Saigo's always face the same direction as the player, Gradius-style. NGII's higher velocity and irritatingly tiny swordbox are factors, but I think this also explains why I find traditional formations less intuitive there.

===

Apropros the first GIF, I dislike it when sidescrollers prevent you from turning around during crouch. I do it there because I want to keep my Options aligned, plus I'm not keen on getting my foot blown off. I appreciate the ethos of calculatedly limited player movement, but barring this tiny adjustment will typically feel asinine in even otherwise well-designed games.

Incidentally, one of the models of calculated limitation, Castlevania, lets you crouch-pivot. Its sequel CVIII doesn't. Look, I can't move FFS, get off my ass for a second. Image

===

I suppose there is some context where I would exclaim "my beautiful sidescroller is ruined! you bitch I'll make you suffer!" but generally, I'm very okay with quick ledge drops.

You could say I GOT THE DROP ON HIM Image
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Actually I've just thought of one: the classic Castlevania skeleton setup where a boney is harassing you with his calciferous missiles from below, while you traverse a long hallway above (later rejigged in Rondo/XX for Pikemen and their extend-o-matic skewers). OR SO I THOUGHT. Those are not ledges, you fuck! They are floors. Saigo no Nindou (pictured above) won't let you floor drop either!

===

Now, this is a bit unfair, as the game this flyer is from (Image Fight) does it properly with zero lag:

Image

But I have come to dislike 16-way aiming with staggered sweep, ala both arcade Contras, and Image Fight's IREM contemporary Saigo. Which not only pairs a treacly 16-way vulcan with a snappy 8-way spread-bomb, but also lets you switch between them at will. Oh hell yeah I'm giffing this for sure.

Eight-way shot. Defending this tree is a snap! Relatively!
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Sixteen-way shot. A considerably tougher test of handling that'll net the uninitiated a wolf to the neck followed by complementary hardwood enema.
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No you're not helpfully emulating the SNK-style Lever Loop! You're just JERKIN ME AROUND! Image In the AC Contras and Saigo alike, I end up emulating a four-way stick to avoid the god-awful jamming-up.

TBH this plays more like Contra than some Contras. :shock: Shuriken-only run intensifies. Image
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===

Metal Slug's Heavy Machine Gun behaves similarly and is rad, but I would put that down to MS [1] lacking contact damage, unlike Contras, and [2] being less of a nonstop raging RNG shitstorm than Saigo (as are most games).

Also the heavy handling is subtly offset by the massive hitbox, generous shot rate, and most of all, the ability to wank it back and forth for willy-waving spray action. Image

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Instructively, Contra's attract demo has the player hauling the spread back and forth like an Olympic rower, versus st5's nasty opening miniboss. It's not all bad, but it's not very good either. I love both AC Contras, but I bet more people would too, if they'd dispensed with the heaving aim lag. Or at least made it specific to certain weapons ala Saigo.

TRICEPS OF STEEL
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Now that I can actually play AC Contra's 3D stages without MAME's busted-ass enemy AI (seen also in every previous official home release!), they're actually my favourite bits by far. I already liked the FC equivalents, but these AC bastards are really gunning for your ass. Super Contra has no such luck, aim lag bites down even harder in its alt stages. Counteract or be swamped. Also where is ACA Super, get it up nao and take my money! Good to know its shared Thunder Cross hardware is in the bag, at least.

On a tangent, it's funny how the AC original's fifth stage (something the legendary FC conversion broke up into four discrete, expanded areas) seems to prefigure the more setpiece n' minibosses-driven SFC/MD/PS2 entries.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:57 am 


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STGs, or other slaughter-integral action games, which expect you to blow up civilian vehicles for points.

Now, I am not a moral gamer. I let the tanks run over the houses in Garegga EVERY TIME. The way I see it, if those villagers don't own competitive home insurance, that is just hard cheese!

Go tank go! GREAT PROPERTY VALUE is coming soon! Image
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But WTF IS THIS SHIT IREM (・`W´・)
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You're triggering my Tony Montana switch, cabron! "OMG you sausage-fingered noob, just don't shoot the cars then!" Yes I know. Image And that was indeed an accident! However the point (bwaaa) still stands that if I GAF about score, I'd have to mow these poor working stiffs down. It looks dumb!

I find it most anti-aesthetic. Image I am an AESTHETIC GAYMER, first and foremost. See also ESPRade's mall stage. WTF is this, Super Flying Columbine-chan?

Raiden's traditional red car is okay. As far as I'm concerned that's an enemy courier vehicle that's gotta be stopped. Can't radar jam that shit. Similar for Under Defeat's scarpering cars. You won't escape my wrath, General Bruder von Wienerschnitzel! You picked one hell of a day to survey the front lines. :cool: Also you're literal Nazis In Helicopters in UD, so who cares mirite.

You want ambiguously gay heli pilots without that atrocious historical baggage, just play Ketsui instead!

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Well shit. :o

Regardless, what am I supposed to headcanon Last Resort's traffic to? >w<;

:idea:

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Damn, I'm good. Image

I'd institute some Yagawa/Raiden Fighters-esque stuntman bonus for not hitting any. Would beef up st1 tbh, which pretty much works on oomph, GFX and BGM alone.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:22 am 


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Sumez wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
+
Time limits, especially in nonlinear games and games where taking it slow is inherently advantageous, such as RPGs. Tons of common design problems vanish into smoke with a time limit. Even generous time limits make it feel like you're being rewarded for finding efficient ways to achieve your goals. I prefer game-long time limits where wasting time in stage 1 costs you in stage 5, but conventional stage-by-stage time limits are still good.


I like this on paper, but it has the inherent issue of the player being sort of in the dark about how well they are doing, especially for longer lasting time limits, like your 5 stage example.
Like, until you are super familiar with the game you can't be certain of how much leeway you have unless the game has some clever way of signaling that. How much of the stage is left? Is there a boss fight coming up that will demand a huge chunk of your time? Etc. It works for shorter arcade games, but I don't see it as a good thing in RPGs, etc.
And if the time limit is a game over scenario, you can be a dead man walking already by stage 3 of 10 without even knowing it.


Hmmm... Short-ish, per-area time limits quicken the pace of the game and tighten up loose gameplay problems for action games. Pretty sure I mentioned this in another post at some point, but in something like say, Sonic, the 10 minute stage timer is basically worthless and just impedes you looking around the level at will. The arcade release of Sonic 1 however, has short-ish [well, they're not that short, but I've played an asston of the game so maybe I'm not the right judge] per-stage timers. A bunch of problems with the series [like rings being constantly re-collectable] disappear entirely. Now, getting hit slows you down, picking rings back up is time possibly wasted, and the over-generous mechanics get suddenly are framed in a far different light. Sonic's very movement goes from "man, he's too fast, this game would be way easier if he'd just slow down a bit" to "FUCK, WHY ISN'T HE FASTER, FUCKING SONIC 1 SPEED CAP AAAAAAAAA" :lol:

When you start getting into long time limits... the game ends up punishing the player well after they should have been. Frequent checkpointing helps [so, instead of giving someone five minutes of time all at once, it'd likely be better to space it out so you get a minute five times along the way]. Delayed consequence really just kinda mucks things up.
Whole game timers and putting them into something like RPGs just seems... rough. Imagine having issues you faced hours ago coming to bite you in the ass in an RPG, for example.

BIL wrote:
But WTF IS THIS SHIT IREM (・`W´・)
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You're triggering my Tony Montana switch, cabron! "OMG you sausage-fingered noob, just don't shoot the cars then!" Yes I know. Image And that was indeed an accident! However the point (bwaaa) still stands that if I GAF about score, I'd have to mow these poor working stiffs down. It looks dumb!


On one hand, it does seem kinda rude to just murder these poor SOBs just driving around.
On the other hand, they're screwed anyway [RIP city], and it was really god damn cool when I first saw that you could hit the cars on the road. Still cool even. Gives you a real sense of power, like "oh shit, my weapons are just passing through and blowing everyone up on accident. I didn't even touch that guy and he just EXPLODED."
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:28 pm 


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Oh yeah, I do like the sense of collateral, at least. It's genuinely difficult not to blow away scads of cars with your weapons' brawny hitboxes, to say nothing of the brutal pod launch. And the thing is called "Last Resort" after all - presumably Space Dildo Cadillacs mkI & mkII haven't been deployed lightly. I gotta draw the line at a scoring incentive for total wipeout, though. Tried it and it made me feel like this guy. :shock:

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Wrong Neo Geo game! :lol:

IIRC they'll suicide off the shattered highway at the boss fight, which just supports my Johnny Cab hypothesis. Image

Fellow ex-IREM Nazca's Metal Slug and its two sequels strike a good balance, imo. I'll level some unlucky bastard's house to exterminate the REBEL SCUM sniping from within, and I'll sure as shit go MONSTER JAM on his Yugo parked nearby, but I don't want an incentive to shoot him in the back as he runs away screaming. EDIT: Always found it classy how MS3's occasional mobs of terrified Rebels (like the ones fleeing st4's Audrey II-infested Pyramid) can't be hit. World is going to shit with godawful aliens and monsters everywhere, executing some pants-shitting deserters wouldn't gel.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:33 pm 


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BIL wrote:
You want ambiguously gay heli pilots without that atrocious historical baggage, just play Ketsui instead!


If you play the Tiger Schwert you get an actually gay pilot whose wish in the ending is for his lover to be imprisoned for ever since if he's gonna die then nobody else gets to have him.

Or you can just play Aine in Gunbird 2 whose ultra-gay co-op endings all involve him raping someone. Every. Single. One. Tetsu in Gunbird is more "wholesome gay" variety with his ending where he rescues his boyfriend.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:22 am 


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Tetsu is the man. I got so much forum mileage out of that 2P convo with Ash back in the day. :mrgreen:

Oh god. Wasn't Ash a pedo? That's two for two on dashing blonde sex offenders. Such a fine line with Psikyo. All fun and games until your rabbit gets unspeakably violated by a hulking weeaboo.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:33 pm 


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I hate that in the ARPG (Diablo clone) genre, the ability to directly control your character with WASD is the very rare exception.

Because why give your single-unit game the precise and straightforward controls of an action game when instead you can open it up to the loosey-goosey controls and pathfinding shenanigans of an RTS?

More specifically, why not use a control scheme that makes your entire game feel like the worst mission of any RTS campaign, the one where you need to maneuver a single unit through an stealth gauntlet?
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:48 pm 


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I personally don't think you're missing anything by skipping Golden Axes 2 and 3. 2 was just more of the same and 3 was bland and boring.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:00 am 



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Mischief Maker wrote:
Because why give your single-unit game the precise and straightforward controls of an action game when instead you can open it up to the loosey-goosey controls and pathfinding shenanigans of an RTS?

I think it can be to hide the grid-based nature of the movement through a very tile-based game. That said, even Ultima VII managed to work in such limitations with a much more action-like control scheme so yeah.

As for myself, I hate any and all usage of RNG with a passion. To me it's always just a crutch in place of proper balancing or a different, much more sensible mechanic. I can sometimes tolerate it if it's used well (as in with as little potential to get annoying as possible), but I haven't been playing classic RPGs lately for a reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:25 am 


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Quite the opposite, I feel like games that don't use RNG as a part of the challenge the player faces, are taking the lazy way out. Finding a pattern they know works, and don't rely on algorithmic patterns that are harder to test.
This especially goes for action games, but in the world of RPGs, Dragon Quest XI is pretty good at showing why an enemy party that can just randomly wreck your ass makes for much more interesting encounters that rely on solid tactics much better than the ones that just let you repeat the same strategy over and over again.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:12 am 



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Not denying that RNG can work well, but I just keep finding more and more examples when it doesn't so I've grown generally wary of it. I guess for me it's about how severe the best and worst cases can get. Losing while doing everything right purely because of RNG is just a waste of time that you can learn nothing from. Winning with no effort purely because of RNG isn't any fun either. OTOH, it's entirely possible to make something with no RNG involved that would still be very challenging and interesting every time. Just look at chess. Or plenty of shmups, actually. Both approaches just need proper balancing. And RNG is way too easy to just slap into where it doesn't belong in an effort to add "challenge". Except "luck" isn't really a "skill" you can test. I prefer to not be forced to rely on that nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:40 pm 


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Ajora wrote:
I personally don't think you're missing anything by skipping Golden Axes 2 and 3. 2 was just more of the same and 3 was bland and boring.


On the surface it may look more of the same, but the game mechanics saw a considerable improvement over part 1 - definitely recommended if one enjoyed tearing the first game apart like I did back in the day. The soundtrack is excellent as well, the best in the series IMO, and it sort of makes up for the lackluster visual presentation when compared to the first game.

GA3 is not bad. Quite ambitious for an 8mbit cartridge belt scroller: four characters, each with a set of special moves and distinct abilities (it's cool to have a grappler in a weapon-based belt scroller; outside of Warriors of Fate, I don't remember any other game having that), including tag attacks (a la the first Streets of Rage) and also combined magic attacks, multiple paths with some interesting set pieces, and you have to 1CC the game in order to face the true last boss.

Main problem of the game is it's pacing; it need to be a little faster in order to better accommodate it's new mechanics, so the game ends up dragging much more than it should. Not good for a belt scroller. You can also break the game with Chronos and his F -> B <- F+B+C, since its a high priority and unblockable move.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:37 pm 


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I love most any kind of tight, balanced mobility options outside of moving quickly and single jumping. I can be picky about it though. I guess the best examples I can say are Mega Man X and Zero as a basis for 2D and TitanFall for 3D.
Short dashes especially in the air, wallrunning, double jumping, sliding, GRAPPLING HOOKS, and some kind of quick evasive movement like a side step. If any or all of this can be cleanly linked together and the levels supplement it in an organic fashion, I'm all over it. As long as none of it's floaty and there's some snappiness and weight to it all. If I'm not actually flying, I can't stand floatiness in games when they're meant to be fast paced.

And a mechanic I can't stand at least not anymore is procedural generation. To the point where when I see crafting, rogue, open world, etc in a game's tags on Steam, I'm gone. All interest totally evaporates in an instant.
Actually I don't know if this counts as a mechanic, but open worlds in general. Tired of them. There's exceptions to both of these of course...few. But I'd give all those up for a nice traditional action adventure like Ratchet and Clank or Majora's Mask any day.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:03 am 


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I like a bit of randomness, but controlled randomness. Stuff like how modern Tetris selects pieces, tuned to try to not screw the player over. In particular, bag-based randomness systems are great, where you just permute the result from a largeish list, so every entry in the list happens, and the when it happens is different.
Like, I'm interested in things that shake gameplay up, but aren't just going to deal you a completely garbage hand.

Moment to moment, you're dealing with various differences in what's happening, but in terms of the overall play, systems should be setup to prevent getting a some kind of obnoxiously unlucky or absurdly lucky run.
You want to smooth out the overall impact of randomness.
You get the thrill of having to react, with less of the drawbacks. Finely tuned randomness is exciting, without being entirely frustrating.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:54 am 


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null1024 wrote:
I like a bit of randomness, but controlled randomness. Stuff like how modern Tetris selects pieces, tuned to try to not screw the player over. In particular, bag-based randomness systems are great

For most pourposes such as action games and various kinds of boss fights I'd agree.
But in a game based entirely around preparing for the unpredictable? The bag randomizer in modern guideline Tetris variant is absolute garbage. Completely ruins the game.

The TGM randomizer has already been proven to be reliable enough to never result in unfair games, but still retains the importance of stacking for every possible outcome. Meanwhile organizing 7 different pieces in a bag and repeating that over and over, immediately creates easy-to-remember patterns that makes stacking forever a matter of basic strategy rather than constant on-the-fly tactical decisions.


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