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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:20 am 


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Stevens wrote:
V blows. You can parry Chun's super by tapping a salsa beat on the buttons.

Not a fan of Super Turbo Charlie?

i think it's good but why add a catchup mechanic in the first place?? it's not needed in a test of skill. all it did was let less skilled players win against better players once in a while. thats what i love about hyperfighting.a match can come down to one blocked fireball
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:28 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Bananamatic wrote:
fighting games are boring if there is no cool stuff waiting for you after you get better


Nah, what makes fighting games fun is the dynamism that arises from a worthy opponent in a game with well designed and strategic move-sets. Everything could be simple 2 hit combos, but if the game makes you think in matches, then that's all that matters. When you get down to it, combos are just a rhythm mini game that you get to play when you land a hit, in order to increase damage. How you land the hit is what requires thought, improvisation, choices, etc. and is therefore what's genuinely important and interesting.

SF5 (and every modern Capcom fighter) fails on this notion because the move-set and mechanical design is garbage and the game is overall strategically brain-dead. It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to do combos, it's worthless when the game is nothing but garbage Rock-Paper-Scissors.

MVC2 on the other hand, is still one of the greatest video games ever made because you could spar with the same friend for 200 years and every single match will play out differently and still genuinely force you to think.


I agree, and this is coming from a long time KOF player (95-98, but mostly 98) where inputs are famously complex and combos are strictly timing based.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:15 am 


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Yeah SNK's execution barrier can be a bit notorious, but there's a genuine rock solid foundation of tactics and strategy holding it up ^^^

charlie chong wrote:
Stevens wrote:
V blows. You can parry Chun's super by tapping a salsa beat on the buttons.

Not a fan of Super Turbo Charlie?

i think it's good but why add a catchup mechanic in the first place?? it's not needed in a test of skill. all it did was let less skilled players win against better players once in a while. thats what i love about hyperfighting.a match can come down to one blocked fireball


Supers aren't really a catch-up / comeback mechanic in the way modern crap like X-Factor or SF4 ultras are. The person administering the beat down builds meter too, so supers can just as easily be used to seal the match as make a comeback. ST in particular you can find lots of matches where somebody gets the shit kicked out of them before promptly being finished off by a super.

They're more of a "resource" that adds an additional strategic element to the game.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:51 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Yeah SNK's execution barrier can be a bit notorious, but there's a genuine rock solid foundation of tactics and strategy holding it up ^^^

charlie chong wrote:
Stevens wrote:
V blows. You can parry Chun's super by tapping a salsa beat on the buttons.

Not a fan of Super Turbo Charlie?

i think it's good but why add a catchup mechanic in the first place?? it's not needed in a test of skill. all it did was let less skilled players win against better players once in a while. thats what i love about hyperfighting.a match can come down to one blocked fireball


Supers aren't really a catch-up / comeback mechanic in the way modern crap like X-Factor or SF4 ultras are. The person administering the beat down builds meter too, so supers can just as easily be used to seal the match as make a comeback. ST in particular you can find lots of matches where somebody gets the shit kicked out of them before promptly being finished off by a super.

They're more of a "resource" that adds an additional strategic element to the game.


Came to echo what SG said. The person doing the beating not only builds meter, but builds it faster.

The jump from Hyper Fighting to Super SF also added normals that some characters desperately needed, Claw in particular. Super also gave us overheads which are awesome.

Also Squire - and everyone else here - been on Fightcade a bunch lately if anyone wants to get some matches in. Just sayin':D
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:52 am 


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Love: Rewarding melee mechanics (particularly swords (particularly beam ones)) in shooting-oriented games.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:29 am 


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there are deffo some broken things about hyper too. ever match up blanka with boxer :lol: zap zap zap ahah
i know the best players use supers to destroy there opponents even more but are they really needed?
it probably is nostalgia that keeps me playing hyperfighting.
hyper anniversary edition is really cool in 2 player and a good compromise between the old school players and the new just a shame the cpu only picks super turbo characters :x
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:36 am 


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charlie chong wrote:
i know the best players use supers to destroy there opponents even more but are they really needed?


It adds more depth and strategy to the game, and they're fun to use. You could ask "is it really needed" for a lot of beloved game abilities and mechanics, and get a very technical "no". But that doesn't mean the formula is better without them. Strictly speaking, the game doesn't "need" to have more than one character, if we're getting really reductionist.

One could talk about all the extra depth and strategy supers add to the fighter formula, but at the end of the day, the best way of putting it is that they become universally adopted within the genre because they're really really fun.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:41 am 


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Skykid wrote:
Without giving anything away I know someone who has already put the hypothesis of using simpler special move inputs with a higher emphasis on spacing and setup strategy into action successfully. And it works very well indeed.

I am glad to know that such a game is viable and fun to play! :)
mamboFoxtrot wrote:
Speaking of Rising Thunder, anyone here aware of Fantasy Strike finally becoming a playable fighting game? It's in early access, but man it's almost kind of surreal seeing it after hearing Sirlin randomly comment about wanting to do it for years upon years. M_Knight, if you haven't already, give it a look. It kinda looks like mobage, but it has the "ez inputs to focus on neutral" mindset, so who knows, it might be up your alley.

I'll give Fantasy Strike a look!
Wasn't Rising Thunder the one with MOBA-like cooldown-based attacks? I guess that was why it didn't work really well, not because of the desire to simplify inputs.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:44 am 


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charlie chong wrote:
there are deffo some broken things about hyper too. ever match up blanka with boxer :lol: zap zap zap ahah
i know the best players use supers to destroy there opponents even more but are they really needed?
it probably is nostalgia that keeps me playing hyperfighting.
hyper anniversary edition is really cool in 2 player and a good compromise between the old school players and the new just a shame the cpu only picks super turbo characters :x

I like to play the earlier SF2 games every now and then for a change. What's your thought on The New Challengers?


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:49 am 


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it adds strategy and depth to a degree but it's not like they are harder to pull off than a normal special move so i dunno. people seem to prefer super turbo so who am i to argue with what the general consensus find more fun.you can have just as much fun just playing mirror matches all day as well as switching character but i get your point :) that is why hyper/super turbo are probably the best is the roster is very well balanced. in hyper fighting i like playing nearly every character except dhalsim,boxer and zangeif and loads of people love playing as those 3
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:53 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
I like to play the earlier SF2 games every now and then for a change. What's your thought on The New Challengers?


i only ever put time into the megadrive version at the time and never played it later on as people told me to try super tubo instead. champion edition and hyperfighting were everywhere in the uk in the 90s.. cps2 stuff not as much.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:54 am 


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lets talk rainbow edition tho bro :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:04 pm 


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charlie chong wrote:
i only ever put time into the megadrive version at the time and never played it later on as people told me to try super tubo instead. champion edition and hyperfighting were everywhere in the uk in the 90s.. cps2 stuff not as much.

Oh for sure. the CPS-1 ones where omnipresent. I love Super Turbo but I've never played it, nor The New Challengers, in the arcade.

I still play Hyper Fightin' on the Super Famicom regularly. But haven't fired it up in MAME in a good while.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:07 pm 


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eebrozgi wrote:
Love: Rewarding melee mechanics (particularly swords (particularly beam ones)) in shooting-oriented games.

Zero is my childhood idol.

That's a great one, love that stuff.

Punch in Assault Suits Valken also comes to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:24 pm 


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M.Knight wrote:
I am glad to know that such a game is viable and fun to play! :)


I haven't played it but Dive Kick is a great example of a simple to play game that is much deeper than it first appears.

The great thing about Hyper Fighting and ST is they're both awesome:D Original WW's really started to come into their own by Hyper.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:29 pm 


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The bad thing about ST is single player mode almost virtually impossible.


Love:
- Sliding do invincibility, Contra Hard Corps is the perfect example.
- Backdash, and Dashing attack ala Alien Soldier.

Hate:
- Characters in action/platformer games that do not keep at least very near, or directly at the center of the screen.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:37 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
ST in particular you can find lots of matches where somebody gets the shit kicked out of them before promptly being finished off by a super.


Agreed.

copy-paster wrote:
The bad thing about ST is single player mode almost virtually impossible.


There are better options for those wishing to pit their skills against the AI.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:00 am 


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Hyper Fighting makes me sad. Champion Edition is better.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:46 pm 


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Despatche wrote:
Hyper Fighting makes me sad. Champion Edition is better.


What about CE do you prefer over HF? What do you think of ST/3rd Strike?


charlie chong wrote:
lets talk rainbow edition tho bro :lol:


I'm Ken! :FLASH: I'm Blanka! :FLASH: I'm Chun Li! YOU CAN'T SEE ME.

Also projectiles as far as the eye can see:D
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:07 pm 


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HF is too silly. ST scales some of that down while also doing some of its own things. "If I wanna play HF, I'd play ST" in other words.

3rd Strike... doesn't really have anything to do with anything here? 3rd Strike is a meme in the US, popular only because of a single stupid video years after the fact. Game is kinda fun to play, but dumb; less busted than NG/2I, but still pretty busted and needs more work. Because it's a meme, the idea of a new version is completely unthinkable to fans. Aesthetic is a major step down from NG/2I, and 2I was already a very minor step down from NG. Sometimes it's more fun to play as SF3 characters in games that aren't SF3.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:57 pm 


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Good: projectiles that create big, lingering explosions which do individually tiny but lethally skyrocketing per-frame tick damage. Gradius II & co's Spread Bomb is a perennial favourite. I love that feeling of making something tough (like an enemy generator, or a midboss, or a boss part) buckle and shatter under pressure. Extra points for sensibly slow firing rate, so you really need to earn it.

Bad: fast action games with "cinematic" movement at the cost of control response. Alisia Dragoon's turnaround frames are cute, but with them immobilising the character in a game loaded with fast bullets, it mandates a muscle memory workaround hop to avoid being shot in the back. Milon's Secret Castle should be a snappy, arcadey adventure full of twitchy action, but dreadfully slow run acceleration turns it into a defensive slog far short of its potential.

Castlevania Bloodlines exemplifies how to do this correctly. The characters have visible turning frames, just like AD... but critically, they actually begin moving during the animation. The original Castlevania likewise has no turning animation or lag, instead Simon moves instantly. Fittingly for a game and series based on punishingly strict handling, both know when not to be picky.

I'm 99% sure, though it's been a while, that the Metal Slugs' ducking animation works similarly to Bloodlines' turning. Marco takes a few frames to visibly balk in alarm before getting his head down, but I'm pretty sure he's mechanically in crouch position from the next frame. I know for sure they take the same approach as BL to turning frames.

Obvious exception for stuff like the original Prince of Persia, whose action is as deliberate as its animation.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:01 am 


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Love: Simple 3 Button Virtua Fighter. You don't need freaking 6 buttons in order to have deep game mechanics. Brawlhala also comes to mind. Simple inputs but deep game play

Hate: Grindy Turn base battle systems in JRPGs. Most JRPGs battle system sucks ballz


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:02 pm 


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Time limits, especially in nonlinear games and games where taking it slow is inherently advantageous, such as RPGs. Tons of common design problems vanish into smoke with a time limit. Even generous time limits make it feel like you're being rewarded for finding efficient ways to achieve your goals. I prefer game-long time limits where wasting time in stage 1 costs you in stage 5, but conventional stage-by-stage time limits are still good.

-
Learn by doing systems, where you train your lightning magic skill by casting level 1 minor spark on the same enemy for an hour. Those systems reward tedium every time. They are irredeemable garbage.

Easy access to healing. Giving players a reason to not care about making mistakes is one of the worst things a game designer can do.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:35 pm 


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Damage floors are a pain in the ass.

yes ass.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:59 pm 


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Mischief Maker wrote:
Always Love:

Throwing one dude into a crowd of other dudes and knocking them down like bowling pins.


SOME ASSHOLE wrote:
Concurred on crowd control, it's partially why I like MD Golden Axe 2 more than the original. Along with a bunch of other refinements.


WTF WAS I THINKING. :shock: Mega Drive GAII is cool, but The Ninja Warriors Again (SFC) is the GOAT bowling pin brawler. Finally surpassed by its remake, Once Again (PS4/Switch):

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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:58 am 


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I like it when you have a finite supply of resources and you have to figure out how make them last through long stretches of gameplay. SFC Shiren the Wanderer is my favorite example. The first half of the game should largely see you building your strength and supplies, the second half is about judiciously burning through those supplies while trying to keep enough in reserve to survive the finale. Other good examples include shmups with bombs, Cadash's inn/item/magic systems, and, to a lesser extent, healing items in Souls games.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:08 am 


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This is a good thread. Re-reading it while giffing up some TNWOA primers. Image

MAULDETH R & D wrote:
Love: judiciously applied invincible frames during evasion or attack. When done right they can enhance the fluidity of any game, 2D or 3D. Shinobi III, Actraiser 2 and Silent Hill 4 are some of my favourite examples.

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^doing it right

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^doing it wrong


I take back the Dracula eXXample, actually. At the time I really hated its half-assed attempt at Rondo-style pathfinding, and the godawful self-parodic walk speed. Still do tbh! But the key's antics are kind of amusing, given how well XX's better stages nail traditional CV treachery platforming. I'd have liked the option of keeping it the whole game just for a laugh.

For another Shinobi example, shamelessly quoting myself on Super Shinobi II from a few years later:

Man vs Animal Evil Continuum Paradox wrote:
Especially after the iframe masterclass of SS2's running slash!

>Invincible to projectiles but not melee/contact damage during hop, enforcing good spacing.

>Absolute invincibility during slash, encouraging ballsy aggression and imparting a sense of almighty power.

>No invincibility whatsoever during sliding stop, punishing sloppiness.

That's a lot of great design packed into one move!


One of the best-ever balancings of absolute destructive power to mortal vulnerability. I could go for an entire game designed around such a move, ideally in a one-hit killer ala Saigo no Nindou. I'm talking balls-out i-framing through a hail of shuriken to break the other guy's katana and helmet in half, splitting his wig like a fuckin melon while you slide off the ledge into a bamboo spikepit, because your spacing was bad. Image Image

---

On the other end of the spectrum from brutal spacing games, I love automelee, 1HKOs and zero contact! All three at the same time is pretty good too!

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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:05 pm 


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Ah? Maybe I should give the Golden Axe sequels a chance, can't say I gave them a fair one when I was a kid.

In Street Fighter 2, Guile has his heavy crouching kick. This thing has always been a pain for me when playing against the AI. Last year, I decided to try a ground-based approach with Ryu against him. There's this enormous gap in the move where Guile is a sitting duck for two entire seconds before the second kick comes out, plenty of time to step in and quick kick him in the nads. Didn't work. Didn't understand why, and just blamed myself for my inability to execute.

Months later watched a youtube video about the cheaty AI in Street Fighter 2. All the obvious stuff, yes. But also something very dark and sinister, like you would see happen in a Hellraiser movie: the AI gets special invincibility frames on certain moves.

Jesus. All these years, man.

Vanguard wrote:
+
Time limits, especially in nonlinear games and games where taking it slow is inherently advantageous, such as RPGs. Tons of common design problems vanish into smoke with a time limit. Even generous time limits make it feel like you're being rewarded for finding efficient ways to achieve your goals. I prefer game-long time limits where wasting time in stage 1 costs you in stage 5, but conventional stage-by-stage time limits are still good.


It is incredible how much these games change when EXP becomes a limited resource. From a relaxing slot machine you can't lose, to a cutthroat survival game.

It helps if there's other agents involved, to allow competitive/cooperative strategies.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:01 pm 


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That's why I LOVE old school strategy games where you can't just replay missions to grind. I still like Fire Emblem but it's really not the same now, it's way too easy.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:31 pm 


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Vanguard wrote:
I like it when you have a finite supply of resources and you have to figure out how make them last through long stretches of gameplay. SFC Shiren the Wanderer is my favorite example. The first half of the game should largely see you building your strength and supplies, the second half is about judiciously burning through those supplies while trying to keep enough in reserve to survive the finale. Other good examples include shmups with bombs, Cadash's inn/item/magic systems, and, to a lesser extent, healing items in Souls games.


Have you ever played Falcom's Xanadu: Dragon Slayer II?
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