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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:21 pm 


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BIL wrote:
I tend to like it when 2D action games let you hitstun bosses/major enemies with a heavy blow. Think Rockman X, when a boss is hit by their elemental weakness.

Mega Man X also let you stun some bosses with charged mega buster shots. Love doing that when Spark Mandrill goes for his MANDRILL PAUNCH attack. I don't think they did that much after the first game, though. But yes, it's indeed always quite nice when your attacks look like they actually hurt enemies, rather than just annoying them until they unexpectedly commit seppuku. At least with melee attacks, anyways.

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I kinda dislike it when a boss can just keep the player on the run by barging in for contact damage, ala FC Rockman.

The last time I tried Mega Bustering the bosses in the NES MM games, I was left wondering why they even bother shooting projectiles from time to time. Like, 90% of the damage was just from running/jumping into me. or because the bottom pixel of my toe touched the top pixel of some dongle on the top of their head...

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Sort of on this subject, I think disabling contact damage entirely in 2D games can be a good thing - Metal Slug's immortally exhilarating melees simply couldn't work otherwise - but it's not a universal good. More surgically-precise action like Contra wouldn't work nearly as well without that intense sense of vulnerability.

Yeah, ledge-guarding enemies in platformers don't work too well if you can just run through them! :lol:
Yanno, I can't think of a lot of games that don't have contact damage, but also don't let you walk through enemies? I mean, maybe some brawlers, I guess, but definitely not platformers*, barring SMB2 USA "ride on their noggins" kind of stuff. Freedom Planet definitely could've benefited from that. Having contact damage in a Sonic-styled game can be annoying since you have so little time to react, but having no collision at all means you can just blow by a lot of the enemies no-problem.

*e: I say that, but I've been playing Kaizou Choujin Shubibinman Zero, which does exactly this. But, I guess there haven't been too many scenarios where it's been important at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:59 am 


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Aha, I could've sworn I remembered plugging X1 bosses with the charged buster! One of those hazy recollections that seemed a bit too near wishful thinking. :wink:

mamboFoxtrot wrote:
Yanno, I can't think of a lot of games that don't have contact damage, but also don't let you walk through enemies? I mean, maybe some brawlers, I guess, but definitely not platformers*, barring SMB2 USA "ride on their noggins" kind of stuff. Freedom Planet definitely could've benefited from that. Having contact damage in a Sonic-styled game can be annoying since you have so little time to react, but having no collision at all means you can just blow by a lot of the enemies no-problem.

*e: I say that, but I've been playing Kaizou Choujin Shubibinman Zero, which does exactly this. But, I guess there haven't been too many scenarios where it's been important at all.


Shinobi comes to mind. The AC game and its direct sequels Shadow Dancer AC+MD have their infamous "bump-fu," where the player and (most) enemies get knocked apart without harm (don't touch Spiderman!). The Super Shinobi I & II modify this slightly in the enemy's favour - you go flying back while they're unaffected, but no damage is exchanged (you won't even lose your POW). Again there's rare exceptions where direct contact is the enemy's attack, eg attack dogs.

I always found the former a bit goofy for a ninja game (strictly in aesthetic terms - Shinobi is friggin rad regardless). I like Ex-Ranza's modification, where enemies close to your size get a swift ROBOKICK in the chops (or if it's your bike, a sound ramming):

Image

Given how integral the bumping is to high-level Shinobi, I'd prefer some sternum-cracking palmstrike with the impact shoving the player back as normal.

---

Stuff what I've been liking lately. First up: pursuer-type enemies that can chase you across gaps and other obstructions. No refuge! Gimmick zako possess DANGEROUS MINDZ.

Gimmick! [FC]
Spoiler: show
Image


Also, spring-loaded spawns. My term for stuff that'll remain static (or at least approachable) for a set period, before brutally lashing out. Aggressive daredevils can rush in for the kill, more defensive players can stay back and exploit their position. Middlers with no real plan will be in a pickle, if not up shit creek. A big part of the NES Ninja Gaiden trilogy's longterm replay excellence! See also certain close imitators. Of course this principle is by no means limited by genre!

Ninja Crusaders: Ryuuga [FC]
Spoiler: show
Image


^ scarier than it looks, noobs! Miss a step and those pink cylinders gon STRIKE 2 KILL

Somewhat tying these two together, the related tripwire spawn. Stuff that'll remain stubbornly out of range until you get close before exploding into action. Again, fosters strategic variety, and encourages progressively more balls-out master runs. Ninja Gaiden II (NES)'s emaciated bongo-playing chumps are a right fookin bother once they get going, and occupy tactically strong positions in the below GIF - but they didn't expect my rock n' roll knee slide! Yo I love ice stages! :O

Ninja Ryukenden II [FC]
Spoiler: show
Image


The poor fuckers at the end are ledge-smart but lack the brains to turn around, so I clobber 'em! To spare the embarrassment of them careening off the screen, you see.

Finally, revenge/comeback attacks executable from the ground. I am a big fan of brawlier stuff (PvP and 1P alike!) that lets you beat the living shit out of a floored opponent! Dude that's realistic! Image

Image

^ Crime Fighters (Konami / AC). Rockin OST. Image

However I also like there to be a little risk in approaching a downed but not out enemy!

Virtual Pro Wrestling 2: Oudo Keishou [N64]
Spoiler: show
Image
(love the *DING* sound effect lmao)

^ even better when, as in VPW2, the grounded foe has the option of alternate attack (you can block a fist in the balls, but not a grapple! and, uh, you can shrug a grapple but not a fist in the balls!) or a retreat. Keep em guessing is an admirable motif.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:11 am 


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BIL wrote:
Gimmick! [FC]
Spoiler: show
Image



I also like the riding on enemies mechanic in Super Mario Bros 2 US/SMUSA/Doki Doki Panic.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:14 am 


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Mechanic I dislike : Arbitrarily complicated button combination to do simple actions that should be the core of the game's purpose. Especially in fighting games.

I like the Smash Bros series due to the easy to learn input scheme and how moving your stick in a direction while pressing the attack button to perform an attack in that direction makes much more sense than rotating, half-rotating, quarter-rotating, or zig-zagging the stick in arbitrary combinations that you have to study, remember and practice.

The core purpose of a fighting game is to fight a human opponent and try to predict his moves, put pressure on him, exploiting opportunities to strike and adjusting your positioning based on the attack ranges of both of your characters. All of those things have absolutely nothing to do with remembering the button combinations to be able to pull off specific moves that belong in your toolset.

Practicing in training mode to perform a specific move over and over again with perfect consistency does in no way whatsoever make you better at actually fighting. You're actually playing a rigid rhythm game which is completely different and the game forces you to play that rhythm minigame whenever you want to use a special move. Maybe it's a skill to pull if off with ease, but it's a skill that a fighting game, a game about fighting, should not test.

Figthing games need just as fast reaction times as shmups, if not even more, so why is it that slowing down the input process and obfuscating it with those combinations is a staple of the genre? Wouldn't simplifying super and special move activations allow players to focus on mind-games and strategies instead of torturing their fingers in practice mode to do what should be a rather simple attack over and over again?

Smash Bros isn't exempt from that design mistake though : lag-cancelling and tech in particular are terrible offenders of that same tendency to put more button presses than needed in the way. Not only having to lag-cancel aerial attacks every damn time and having to press the shield button on landing every time you take damage is distracting, there is also zero advantage whatsoever not to do that. L-cancelling and teching are no longer a tactical decision that is integrated with the mind-games at play but a chore you have to do otherwise you get penalized.

This is also why I think these kind of videos that showcase SSBM's input complexity are masturbatory and miss the point of the game's purpose and raison d'être.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:44 am 


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Funnily enough I've seen more tragic input mishaps in Smash tournaments than any other fighting game. Though, other fighting games don't really have an equivalent of "Side B off the stage" :lol:
Also I swear I actually mess up Gatling combos more than simple motions like QCF, though other motions depend heavily on the reader (GGXXAC+ is about as anal as it gets).

Like, 7 years ago I wanted to make a fighting game, and spent a lot of time thinking about the inputs. I think I ended up just doing the Doujin thing and stuck with the easy motions like QCF, double-taps, etc, but I can't quite remember the reasoning. Probably a combo of wanting to have lots of special moves without having tons of special buttons, and I didn't want 1-button shoryus.

e: you talk about L-Canceling, but even non-button tricks like Perfect Pivots, Wavebouncing, Shield Dropping, etc can be pretty finicky to pull off. Hell, Smash 4 made the Smashing so sensitive that just getting a tilt vs a Smash attack (or walk vs run) can be an ordeal on certain controllers :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:32 am 


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Smash defintely isn't free from those issues as well, that's for sure! Come to think about it, the fact that moving and attacking both use a directionnal input can also lead to accidents and wrong inputs so the control model is far from perfect.

While it does not have the quarter circles, Smash has its own unfortunate quirks and I would say tilting VS smashing is one of them. I mostly play the original Smash Bros so the lack of C-stick smashes can be quite frustrating when a smash input is translated as a tilt or vice-versa. And even then, the following games introduce charged smashes that render C-stick smashes more situational which does not alleviate the issue.

I mentionned the L-cancel because it's one of the first tricks to learn but the other advanced techniques would also fall in the same group of arbitrary inputs, though not all were on purpose. Running VS walking can also be tricky as well, agreed.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:04 pm 


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The more destructive moves having more complicated inputs actually bring a risk/reward element to the game. You need more time/a safer setup to imput that special. If you try pulling it off when you don't have much time and space available/at a bad timing than you risk getting clipped. That means that you can't use the super powermoves whenever you want, but instead have to try and force your opponent into an "ambush". I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:35 pm 


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I am not a high level player by any means, but when you land something difficult in a fighter - a combo, a proper set up that depends on execution and timing it is hugely satisfying. A satisfaction I highly suspect would be absent if I could do such things with the push of a button.

Why? Because I had to work for it and earn it. Fighters are about out thinking, but remove the execution and you remove the satisfaction of accomplishment. Again just one man's opinion.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:14 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
The more destructive moves having more complicated inputs actually bring a risk/reward element to the game. You need more time/a safer setup to imput that special. If you try pulling it off when you don't have much time and space available/at a bad timing than you risk getting clipped. That means that you can't use the super powermoves whenever you want, but instead have to try and force your opponent into an "ambush". I like it.


What I wanted to say. I'm inclined to wonder whether M. Knight is familiar with the concept of hit-confirms.

M.Knight wrote:
The core purpose of a fighting game is to fight a human opponent and try to predict his moves, put pressure on him, exploiting opportunities to strike and adjusting your positioning based on the attack ranges of both of your characters.


I'm afraid I've only had limited experience with fighters, but in general, all of the things above are covered with a character's given normals, throws, and command normals. With the possible exception of long-range projectiles and Shoryuken-style anti-airs (both of which have simple inputs), timing-sensitive cancels and complicated move inputs only come into play after you've learned things like proper setups and spacing, which are arguably the real meat of any 2D fighter - there's no point in getting Deadly Rave perfect if you can't create an opportunity to perform it. You'll see in matches like this one that good players spend more time trying to achieve ideal setups than wrestling with move inputs.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that there already exists a focus on the things you described and that lengthy combos and supers are more of a bonus to increase your damage output and such.

M.Knight wrote:
Figthing games need just as fast reaction times as shmups, if not even more, so why is it that slowing down the input process and obfuscating it with those combinations is a staple of the genre? Wouldn't simplifying super and special move activations allow players to focus on mind-games and strategies instead of torturing their fingers in practice mode to do what should be a rather simple attack over and over again?


If you haven't already tried it, you'd like Mark of the Wolves. The input for almost every super move is QCF x2, even those for staples like Power Geyser or Haoh Shoko Ken.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:45 pm 


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Stevens wrote:
I am not a high level player by any means, but when you land something difficult in a fighter - a combo, a proper set up that depends on execution and timing it is hugely satisfying. A satisfaction I highly suspect would be absent if I could do such things with the push of a button.

Why? Because I had to work for it and earn it. Fighters are about out thinking, but remove the execution and you remove the satisfaction of accomplishment. Again just one man's opinion.

I also 100% feel that way


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:37 am 


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same
fuck capcom


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:19 pm 


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I understand the idea that a special shouldn't come out immediatly as for the risk/reward mechanic to work, but couldn't that be done within the move itself (with start-up frames for instance), instead of relying on the physical impossibility of pulling off the motion in a single frame?

Stevens wrote:
I am not a high level player by any means, but when you land something difficult in a fighter - a combo, a proper set up that depends on execution and timing it is hugely satisfying. A satisfaction I highly suspect would be absent if I could do such things with the push of a button.

Why? Because I had to work for it and earn it. Fighters are about out thinking, but remove the execution and you remove the satisfaction of accomplishment. Again just one man's opinion.

I get what you are saying, the game indeed rewards you for performing the input correctly. It also rewards you if you perform it with the correct timing and I feel that the timing element should defintely be tested and rewarded by the game, but the execution of the input not so much even though it is actually satisfying when it works. If you connect your hits with the correct timing, that's what I think should be rewarded with the opportunity to safely perform a special move.
It is possible that I approach the whole thing with a shmup player mindset rather than a fighting game player mindset though. For instance, a smart bomb should come out instantly and pressing the button at the right moment to avoid dying is satisfying. Any additionnal effort to make me work for my bomb seems unwelcome to me, so that's why those execution elements in fighting games unsettle me.
WelshMegalodon wrote:
Guess what I'm trying to say is that there already exists a focus on the things you described and that lengthy combos and supers are more of a bonus to increase your damage output and such.
It is this differenciation that I have difficulty understanding. Those bonus elements are still quite important within the context of the game, so it feels kinda weird that they play by slightly different rules.
WelshMegalodon wrote:
If you haven't already tried it, you'd like Mark of the Wolves. The input for almost every super move is QCF x2, even those for staples like Power Geyser or Haoh Shoko Ken.

I can give it a try but I am afraid even quarter-circles are too much for me. :lol:
However, I laud the consistency.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:18 pm 


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It also bears mentioning that in recent years companies have been making inputs significantly more lenient. Would it be incorrect to presume your complaints are more towards older fighters?
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:51 pm 


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M.Knight wrote:
I understand the idea that a special shouldn't come out immediatly as for the risk/reward mechanic to work, but couldn't that be done within the move itself (with start-up frames for instance), instead of relying on the physical impossibility of pulling off the motion in a single frame?


It's already being done that way. In general (FinalBaton and the rest, feel free to jump in), special moves will have properties like lengthier startup or recovery that make them less safe than normals, which is why you mostly see players canceling into this or that special up close rather than pulling one out of nowhere. (Exceptions include specials performed as reversals and long-range pokes like Chizuru's Ritz Upper.)
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:03 pm 


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I had thought about just making the average motion execution time part of the special move animation itself, but that really only makes sense when using specials in neutral. Reversals and some other moves would actually completely lose their utility if you couldn't utilize their quick or instant start-up by buffering into them. Joystick motion as "start-up frames" also reduces telegraphing, which can be a good or a bad thing or even just not really that important depending on the move in question.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:37 pm 


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I think M.Knight's basis is completely correct. Without giving anything away I know someone who has already put the hypothesis of using simpler special move inputs with a higher emphasis on spacing and setup strategy into action successfully. And it works very well indeed.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:20 pm 


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I'm sure it's a viable concept that can appeal to some people and be very fun for them.

Different strokes for different folks.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:00 am 


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Rising Thunder wasn't very good. I had little hope for it, and then it ended up getting canceled...

I don't understand why we can't have both. Weird inputs even give more personality to each character, if nothing else. It doesn't even have to do with tradition, because games kinda stopped doing interesting inputs after the mid-'90s or so.

Someone coming at this with a "shmup mindset" should be well aware of Raiden, Garegga, etc.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:09 am 


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fighting games are boring if there is no cool stuff waiting for you after you get better
sfv was an absolute turnoff to me, there is no fun in being able to do the hard stuff day one
don't lower the execution barrier, instead allow people to play just fine with the basic stuff but make the hard stuff still worth learning


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:23 am 


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it all went downhill from hyperfighting which to me is the chess of fighters.. specials have always been garbage since day one
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:31 am 


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Bananamatic wrote:
fighting games are boring if there is no cool stuff waiting for you after you get better
sfv was an absolute turnoff to me, there is no fun in being able to do the hard stuff day one
don't lower the execution barrier, instead allow people to play just fine with the basic stuff but make the hard stuff still worth learning

I also think it's lame that they've made chaining combos so easy (aka no timing required, just input all that long sequence in one solid block and BAM)


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:38 am 


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V blows. You can parry Chun's super by tapping a salsa beat on the buttons.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:05 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
I also think it's lame that they've made chaining combos so easy (aka no timing required, just input all that long sequence in one solid block and BAM)

not sure if I liked usf4's link system either, the 1 frame links and plinking seemed dumb
got into guilty gear lately and it's perfect, the basic stuff is actually easy to do (way easier than in usf4, gatling combos are literally smash buttons in a certain order) but the hard combos are hard as heck for other reasons than being a dumb 1 frame link (which is great for netplay with slightly variable delay)
stuff should be friendly towards beginners without fucking over the other side of the spectrum, you can't really call a game "inclusive" if you make it in favour of one group but screw over others


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:15 am 


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Just curious, what are your thoughts on The King of Fighters XIV? More inclusive or less?
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:16 am 


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I love Guilty Gear (though I'm ass at it), but man why did Xrd get rid of negative edge? :cry:

Despatche wrote:
Rising Thunder wasn't very good. I had little hope for it, and then it ended up getting canceled...

Speaking of Rising Thunder, anyone here aware of Fantasy Strike finally becoming a playable fighting game? It's in early access, but man it's almost kind of surreal seeing it after hearing Sirlin randomly comment about wanting to do it for years upon years. M_Knight, if you haven't already, give it a look. It kinda looks like mobage, but it has the "ez inputs to focus on neutral" mindset, so who knows, it might be up your alley.

ps: for the people here who do like Special Inputs, do you draw a line somewhere? Personally I can't handle stuff like 720s or Raging Demon type moves. Jump-cancel-into-DP combos are also annoying but I can actually imagine myself doing that eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:31 am 


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360s and 720s aren't really a problem, at least not in theory, since you're supposed to buffer them in jumps or normals like this. I used to be bothered by double half-circle motions until I realized they were designed to let you block at points.

As for Shun Goku Satsu... Blue Mary's Dynamite Swing has a similar input in Real Bout Special, and I don't think it was that bad. I'd name Ryuuko 2 as a game with weirder super inputs.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:47 am 


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Bananamatic wrote:
fighting games are boring if there is no cool stuff waiting for you after you get better


Nah, what makes fighting games fun is the dynamism that arises from a worthy opponent in a game with well designed and strategic move-sets. Everything could be simple 2 hit combos, but if the game makes you think in matches, then that's all that matters. When you get down to it, combos are just a rhythm mini game that you get to play when you land a hit, in order to increase damage. How you land the hit is what requires thought, improvisation, choices, etc. and is therefore what's genuinely important and interesting.

SF5 (and every modern Capcom fighter) fails on this notion because the move-set and mechanical design is garbage and the game is overall strategically brain-dead. It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to do combos, it's worthless when the game is nothing but garbage Rock-Paper-Scissors.

MVC2 on the other hand, is still one of the greatest video games ever made because you could spar with the same friend for 200 years and every single match will play out differently and still genuinely force you to think.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:10 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Nah, what makes fighting games fun is the dynamism that arises from a worthy opponent in a game with well designed and strategic move-sets. Everything could be simple 2 hit combos, but if the game makes you think in matches, then that's all that matters. When you get down to it, combos are just a rhythm mini game that you get to play when you land a hit, in order to increase damage. How you land the hit is what requires thought, improvisation, choices, etc. and is therefore what's genuinely important and interesting.

This is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't change the fact that for some people, pulling off the harder special moves, as well as combos that require specific timing, is satisfying in itself and adds another layer of fun to the game. I realize this doen't apply to everyone tho.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:31 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Nah, what makes fighting games fun is the dynamism that arises from a worthy opponent in a game with well designed and strategic move-sets. Everything could be simple 2 hit combos, but if the game makes you think in matches, then that's all that matters. When you get down to it, combos are just a rhythm mini game that you get to play when you land a hit, in order to increase damage. How you land the hit is what requires thought, improvisation, choices, etc. and is therefore what's genuinely important and interesting.

This is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't change the fact that for some people, pulling off the harder special moves, as well as combos that require specific timing, is satisfying in itself and adds another layer of fun to the game. I realize this doen't apply to everyone tho.


All well and good! Tech can be fun too, but I'm just making the point that combos ultimately don't require thinking and that the neutral game and how it plays out is the real meat and fundamental core which upholds everything else. Footsies are the cake, combos and such are the icing.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Mechanics you always love, and always hate
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:54 am 


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For sure the main focus is optimizing the distance between you and your opponent at all time, having an efficient neutral game, putting pressure, faking out moves/ playing head games / footsies, making setups, punish mistakes with combos as devastating as possible, etc


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