Windows 10

[BryanM]

Ok, I know there isn't much to say about this ("What new hardware precisely does this support and why do they have to market it as something completely new and totally worth another $200 for instead of simply incrementing upon the existing product?"), but Jesus. These people can't even count correctly, and we're going to trust our computers to them? Think about it.

Ironically my new (albeit refurbished) computer arrived just yesterday. Which I promptly installed XP on, as my XP discs cost me $0 to use and money is expensive. Finding the correct Realtek drivers for the stock hardware was a bloody headache, the ASUS website is just grade A doo-doo at presenting you everything you need, but everything is working splendidly now. The CPU in the thing didn't even match up with what the website claimed it was: it was actually 10% better than what I was paying money for. SH-3 runs roughly double speed, ~60 FPS on Path of Exile, very decent. Much amaze. Space age ~2007-2011 technology.

Okay this is really a "this is an okay week for BryanM" kind of a thread. 3.46 GB ought to be enough for everyone.

[MX7]

I know people are having a laugh about Microsoft not being able to count etc, but in lots of fields, things like catalogue numbers may be assigned to products that for one reason or another never get released. This is especially true of CAT numbers used by record labels. Sometimes labels will jump to the next coolest sounding number where appropriate (so WARP skipped about 500 CAT numbers to WARP666 for a Merzbow record they were obviously pretty excited by). Confusing from a consumer perspective, definitely.

[TransatlanticFoe]

It looks like Windows 7 with some fancy effects and ugly Win 8 tiles shoved in. Essentially, like 7 was what Vista would have been if they'd thought about it, this is what 8 would have been if they didn't insist on forcing metro on desktops.

Genuinely surprised they didn't call it "Windows One" to go with the xbox branding and that fact that they're making a big song and dance about it being one OS for all devices. Skipping 9 and going straight to 10 does come across dumb - it's not like it's a silly series of numbers, like having a 200 series and 400 series of something, but not a 300 series. It's been 7, then 8 and now 10. For no reason whatsoever.

Still, at least it means there will be a tolerable Windows OS for desktops in the future.

[GaijinPunch]

So done with Windows.

[Icarus]

RIP Windows ⑨

[Damocles]

I don't plan on upgrading any time soon, but the upgrades made to the command prompt look fun and actually useful to me.

[Stormwatch]

Windows is 10 to catch up with OS X, just like the second Xbox was called 360 so it wouldn't appear to be behind the PlayStation 3.

[Spark]

Good thing they'll bring back the Win 7 starter menu, the Metro one is disgusting.

[Vexorg]

I think a lot of the problem with Windows 8 was that Windows 7 was a really tough act to follow. There's a lot that Windows 7 does right, and that Windows 8 threw out completely in favor of some seriously questionable design choices. It will be interesting to see how Windows 10 works out, but so far it's looking like it might actually be worth using. Not enough so to keep me from wanting to stockpile a couple extra copies of Windows 7 just in case, but enough to at least give it a shot.

Having spent a number of years at Microsoft, it seems to me that they still have, for the most part, very good technical people there. The problem seems to be that the decision makers who tell those people what to do have a serious case of groupthink going on, which results in products that nobody with any common sense would go anywhere near, much less try to actually sell. Oh, and Microsoft's marketing is embarrassingly terrible, and has been for the better part of a decade. If I was running the company firing every single person in the marketing department would be the first thing I do.

[BryanM]

I don't plan on upgrading any time soon, but the upgrades made to the command prompt look fun and actually useful to me.

Yeah that was funny that they demo'ed the command prompt on a big stage in 2014. "YOU CAN CTRL-C AND CTRL-V NOW, LIKE OTHER OS'S HAVE LET YOU DO FOR DECADES!"

[null1024]

It looks like Windows 7 with some fancy effects and ugly Win 8 tiles shoved in. Essentially, like 7 was what Vista would have been if they'd thought about it, this is what 8 would have been if they didn't insist on forcing metro on desktops.

Genuinely surprised they didn't call it "Windows One" to go with the xbox branding and that fact that they're making a big song and dance about it being one OS for all devices. Skipping 9 and going straight to 10 does come across dumb - it's not like it's a silly series of numbers, like having a 200 series and 400 series of something, but not a 300 series. It's been 7, then 8 and now 10. For no reason whatsoever.

Still, at least it means there will be a tolerable Windows OS for desktops in the future.

This on all counts. Installed the beta last night. New command prompt is certainly nicer. New Start menu is what we should have had.
dumb shit that bugs me -- this will probably be fixed by final release, but at the moment, you can't double click the icon on Metro app windows to close it like you can with every other program (even Chrome lets me ).
only spent twenty minutes with it, will fuck around with it some more later.

oh, and at least they didn't call it Windows X
But Microsoft has been really bad with numbers lately. Deliberately awful with them.

[trap15]

[Xyga]

Necro for a follow up to my win 10 rant here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36060&start=8520

I've managed to install the dreaded Fall Creators update (1709) from a USB thumb drive created with MediaCreationTool, but not by booting on it since it didn't go as planned (of course)

Booting from the thumb drive to install Windows I got a message saying I can't install a new version like that...

So instead I booted normally, on the desktop browsed the thumb drive and clicked the setup.exe, which launched the installation program.

I chose to keep my apps and files and so far it seems nothing was lost or messed up. Most of my settings remained as well (only had to erase the old version to free 10GB)

Though the option to set your connectivity to 'limited by data plan or something', and therefore limiting downloads to only critical updates, seems gone.
(Instead there's a new menu to set up how much bandwidth - internet I guess - you want to allow to background updates. Dunno if it works as intended or not yet)
...
BUT!!! it seems the previous version's setting for limited connectivity remains active somewhere since I was prompted to authorize the download of a number of updates (with the size specified)

Download-installing from windows update still bottlenecks the system as fuck for some minutes, and some updates still fail, but heh, at least there's no longer that massive failing and looping Fall Creator's one to go.

CPU and memory usage are otherwise good after disabling most of the obvious useless stuff, though I still have to kill Cortana completely. And I've gained a couple GB of free space.

Was it worth the trouble? No. Windows update still ruins the experience, it's the main issue of that OS. You don't have to worry about telemetry and privacy since you're constantly waiting for your computer to be done updating and therefore don't do shit anyway.
Windows have made bad OSes in the past but I can't believe how low they've fallen competence-wise, neither Vista nor the original 8 failed this hard.
Their entire user base that's not on Pro/Ent and with a weak hardware are screaming to their ears that it's a nightmare and a shame, yet they won't revert to the older and better updates policy.

EDIT: I had only 60MB of updates to do and yet two just failed and it's trying over and over, again murdering the cpu/memory.

[bigbadboaz]

Windows update still ruins the experience

I don't understand how this issue didn't kill W10 from the outset. There have been massive public backlashes over much, much smaller issues than this and yet.. barely a peep from all those potentially affected.

I had an awful experience with auto-update hanging my machine early on with Win7. Turned it off, never to be seen again. All they need to do is give users back control of this feature in 10 and its single biggest problem would be solved, but no. Makes staying on 7 into eternity a very, very easy decision.

But again, I can't see how this hasn't ruffled more feathers. Particularly on the corporate side - think how many, many $$$ could be lost thanks to one ill-timed system lockout. It's insane.

[orange808]

It's not that bad. We don't use Home at work.

Also, our machines aren't custom game machines, underpowered garbage, or trendy tablet hybrids. We buy boring laptops in bulk; they are fairly standardised and they get better support than your custom game build or grandma's cheap 32gig sd, 2gb ram, and Bay Trail abomination.

Also, all devices connect through the VPN. We have multiple options to delay updates.

I have bigger issues with things like Linux devs leaking information about vulnerabilities, freaking everyone out, and forcing me to install (and uninstall and reinstall) half-assed undercooked patches.

[bigbadboaz]

Are you saying the enterprise version actually offers user controls over the forced updates? Wasn't my understanding.

[Xyga]

Yeah I think the Pro and especially Enterprise give much better control and features. Or in other words are decent versions of 10.
Few laptops equipped with Pro are the ultra-cheap entry kind, and companies that buy Enterprise generally know better than mommy laptops.

My purpose getting a cheap Home laptop was really to experience the same shit the commonfolk do, and I was served.

Still, once the little animal is cleaned and updated, even Home is totally fine.
I have a steady 3% CPU and 33% RAM usage now it's all smooth and quiet, lightning-fast on startup.
Watching a 720p stream on FireFox, with 3~4 other tabs open, hardware monitor and Avast running, I'm at 40~45% CPU usage and theres's still over 1GB of RAM available.
(ASUS E402NA, Celeron N3350, 32GB SSD, 4GB RAM. Got 11GB free now but there's a SATA bay in which I'm gonna throw a spare HDD)
(Got it refurbished but really new af, bundled w/ a 32GB MicroSD and a 8GB thumb drive all for under 200 zeni)

It's really only when Windows Update is acting that the system can't even.

Though I've noticed yesterday about that couple of little updates failing and retrying, that they might be labelled as 'failed' but in reality only require a restart, and Win Update fails to realize that immediately.
It's only after a non-required restart that I've noticed these two uodates changed status from 'failed' to 'requiring restart', I was like WTF, and one restart each even!
I don't remember a Windows ever misinterpreting its own updates in the past.

For me two questions remain;

- if that 'limited connectivity' option is still active or not (since I was prompted to approve of the updates you know)
If it does the setting's location and name/formulation have changed or it was silently inherited from the previous build.
I'll investigate because this is - besides the new bandwidth allocation thing - the only way to control Windows Update madness for Home users (and maybe 10 S too but I'm too scared about that one I wish I'll never have to deal with it)

- why the fuck that bootable thumb drive I made didn't behave as it should and the entire internet parrots "its easy to install and update Win 10, just make a thumb drive using the media creation tool and boot on it!" :/

[Ji-L87]

- why the fuck that bootable thumb drive I made didn't behave as it should and the entire internet parrots "its easy to install and update Win 10, just make a thumb drive using the media creation tool and boot on it!" :/

Sorta related. I put one of them fancy M2 NVME SSDs in my build for use as a boot drive. I don't even remember what the problem was, something with the formatting or other, but it took me like 2-3 tries of installing Windows just for it to get on to the right drive. I feel stupid thinking back on it, but I think the solution was not immediately clear for me at the time since all my other disk drives showed up as they should, except the M2. But it showed fine in BIOS. Had to follow a guide and do some command line trickery to get it right.

[ZellSF]

Are you saying the enterprise version actually offers user controls over the forced updates? Wasn't my understanding.

Enterprises works different with updates than regular users do. They manage updates centrally and have several tools for this. More importantly, they have dedicated IT personnel for this. Hire a dedicated IT guy and I'm sure he could get Windows 10 Home updates to be trouble free for you too.

That said, enterprises want security updates installed on time, so they're just as likely to force untimely updates on you as Microsoft is.

I've managed to install the dreaded Fall Creators update (1709)

From my experience 1709 isn't any worse or better than any other Windows feature update. I'm thinking 1709 just has a bit worse reputation as 1607 was when most people moved on to Windows 10 and 1709 is the first feature update for most of them.

I don't remember a Windows ever misinterpreting its own updates in the past.

You must have suppressed it then, Windows 7 frequently does that. Windows Update has always been awful.

[Xyga]

From my experience 1709 isn't any worse or better than any other Windows feature update. I'm thinking 1709 just has a bit worse reputation as 1607 was when most people moved on to Windows 10 and 1709 is the first feature update for most of them.

If you read the story it's specifically about it failing to install on a great number of low-end configurations because of too little space and memory, not about the release itself which isn't any worse or better than the previous in practice afaik yes, in fact it runs pretty well, I come from the original official release and, well, it's still W10...

You must have suppressed it then, Windows 7 frequently does that. Windows Update has always been awful.

Immediately labelling updates that simply require a restart as 'failed' ?, no I don't remember seeing that scenario before...sure there's always been issues with WU but in 10 it seems more fucked than ever, especially of course in versions that don't allow full control over updates, and them forcing heavy major ones 2~3 times sure doesn't help either.
Most of these creators updates are packed with useless redesign shit nobody cares about and that increase the size of the release considerably, if they brought only the important stuff one by one things would probably go more smoothly.

EDIT: omg just read that in the next one they'll be creeping 'S' mode into every build from Home to Enterprise. Supposedly leaving the choice to select it or not. *shiver*

[ZellSF]

You must have suppressed it then, Windows 7 frequently does that. Windows Update has always been awful.

Immediately labelling updates that simply require a restart as 'failed' ?, no I don't remember seeing that scenario before...

You might not have seen it before, but Windows 7 definitely does that.

From my experience 1709 isn't any worse or better than any other Windows feature update. I'm thinking 1709 just has a bit worse reputation as 1607 was when most people moved on to Windows 10 and 1709 is the first feature update for most of them.

If you read the story it's specifically about it failing to install on a great number of low-end configurations because of too little space and memory

That sounds like it would apply to every feature update.

[Xyga]

You might not have seen it before, but Windows 7 definitely does that.

Maybe I didn't pay attention because even just dowloading an update didn't push the cpu and memory to 100%, and I have used 7 on weaker computers...now with 10 just WU initiating the process completely saturates the system, so somehow yes it pushes ones to go have a look at wtf is going on and notice the nature of the issue.

That sounds like it would apply to every feature update.

Not even the original migration from 7/8 did block nearly as many low-end pc's as the fall creators update did.
Note: one thing that's rather recent though is the rapidly increasing presence of those low-end pcs equipped with only a 32GB SSD and sometimes even just 2GB or RAM.
With the fat feature releases that are now common with 10, that trend sure comes at the wrong time.

[ZellSF]

You might not have seen it before, but Windows 7 definitely does that.

Maybe I didn't pay attention because even just dowloading an update didn't push the cpu and memory to 100%, and I have used 7 on weaker computers...now with 10 just WU initiating the process completely saturates the system, so somehow yes it pushes ones to go have a look at wtf is going on and notice the nature of the issue.

Well I didn't talk about CPU and memory usage, just the UI getting confused on the state of updates.

That said, Windows update using 100% cpu and memory? Not uncommon on Windows 7 either. Windows update has always sucked. This isn't in defense of Windows 10, feature updates and less control over update times have made the overall experience worse, but the base Windows Update software hasn't gotten any worse.

[Xyga]

The whole point I've been discussing is that of those numerous low end pcs being stuck in a loop and choking on the fall creators update (and even on small updates), maybe you aren't aware, but it's defnitely been a widespread epidemic these past months.

I've been (unwillingly because I'm definitely not a computer repair man) forced to help many people with their pc for simple things over the years, and this situation's here this time really sticks out.

You may tell me over and over 'its always been like that even with win7' well, I think you're wrong. I don't know what it is but something's changed with the way WU works in 10, it IS causing way more problems compared to previous Windows, if you haven't seen that you've been living on a different planet.

[Despatche]

Windows 10 is bad and everyone's been tricked into thinking it's good, going on about "Windows 7 is the new XP" or whatever garbage. Software support is in terms of Windows 10 now, never Windows 7 or 8.

[ZellSF]

The whole point I've been discussing is that of those numerous low end pcs being stuck in a loop and choking on the fall creators update (and even on small updates), maybe you aren't aware, but it's defnitely been a widespread epidemic these past months.

I've been (unwillingly because I'm definitely not a computer repair man) forced to help many people with their pc for simple things over the years, and this situation's here this time really sticks out.

You may tell me over and over 'its always been like that even with win7' well, I think you're wrong. I don't know what it is but something's changed with the way WU works in 10, it IS causing way more problems compared to previous Windows, if you haven't seen that you've been living on a different planet.

Well I've probably seen the two issues you attributed to Windows 10 on Windows 7 at least a hundred times (I am a computer repair man, sort of), so they're definitely there. If you dodged both of them on Windows 7 you were probably just very lucky. It's not like Windows Update ever behaves consistently.

The actual Windows 10 updates (not the update process itself) does tend to cause more issues (mainly due to bad driver updates). They're also much easier to fix due to better recovery mode tools though.

[mycophobia]

used various Linux distros (mostly Debian or Debian-based) for over a decade, got sick of it and decided to ditch it for Windows 10. Used that for a year and the incessant nagging about updates that inevitably break shit and the inclusion of features I didn't ever want and couldn't turn off drove me back to Linux. yeah it can be a pain in the ass sometimes but at least I'm in control of my own computer

[ryu]

Been using Debian since spring 2016. Never looked back.

[Xyga]

Well I've probably seen the two issues you attributed to Windows 10 on Windows 7 at least a hundred times (I am a computer repair man, sort of), so they're definitely there. If you dodged both of them on Windows 7 you were probably just very lucky. It's not like Windows Update ever behaves consistently.

Well mr 'computer repairman sort of' do you deal regularly with the kind of low end equipment I precisely mention? You don't sound like you do. And lucky or not I told you I've never met an identical situation with even older and weaker pcs running XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1, which might not make 'hundreds of times' but still quite a lot.

The actual Windows 10 updates (not the update process itself) does tend to cause more issues (mainly due to bad driver updates). They're also much easier to fix due to better recovery mode tools though.

It's not 'tend' it's significantly more, that 100% cpu usage starts right with the downloading and installing that follows and doesn't stop until it's either done or labelled as failed and hordes of people with bottom end pcs with a Celeron and Home (or S apparently also) have been experiening it lately, it's a vast phenomenon, they're returning their pc the first day or dealing with confident repairmen sort of who just sell them a better computer. Especially the fall creators update loop is no fantasy, it's been the main cause. And no the recovery tools don't help when you have a massive update trying to install over and over, blocking access to both the desktop and startup recovery menu after restart, holding the computer in a loop as long as it's not done (but fails to notice it can't finish since there's not enough room), going back to a recovery point doesn't stop it from happening, and Home doesn't give any obvious choice besides as I've found telling 'I'm on data plan' or doing the big update manually one way or the other.

This is not a situation where people have i3/5/7 machines and tens of GB of free space, they don't have Pro or Ent, and it seems obvious that the way Microsoft decided to make use of WU in 10 doesn't take their hardware limitations into account. Possibly they haven't thought of it or they know but cynically think 'they ll buy a better pc next time'.

[ZellSF]

Well I've probably seen the two issues you attributed to Windows 10 on Windows 7 at least a hundred times (I am a computer repair man, sort of), so they're definitely there. If you dodged both of them on Windows 7 you were probably just very lucky. It's not like Windows Update ever behaves consistently.

Well mr 'computer repairman sort of' do you deal regularly with the kind of low end equipment I precisely mention? You don't sound like you do. And lucky or not I told you I've never met an identical situation with even older and weaker pcs running XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1, which might not make 'hundreds of times' but still quite a lot.

1: I do quite often deal with low end equipment.

2: The two issues I talked about in this context (Windows UI being confused about state of updates + Windows Update taking 100% CPU & RAM) happens to high end hardware too.

And no the recovery tools don't help when you have a massive update trying to install over and over, blocking access to both the desktop and startup recovery menu after restart

I didn't say it helps for all problems caused by updates, just more of them than Windows 7's recovery tools do.