Capcom Brawlers!

[CDexWard]

The Final Fight thread a while back got me interested in arcade Beat 'em Ups. I looked around a little bit and found articles on Hardcoregaming and Racketboy and as it seems back then Capcom was the Cave of brawlers. But this is a genre I know almost nothing about. I gave a couple of games a try and the ones I really like so far are Aliens vs. Predator, The Punisher and Shadow Over Mystara. Final Fight has apparently some bullshit parts like the factory stage and many players seem to consider it unfair. Have the aforementioned games similar issues and how do they rank difficulty wise? What would be a good game to get into the genre?

Here's a list of all the Capcom brawlers I could find:

Aliens vs. Predator
Armored Warriors
Battle Circuit
Cadillacs And Dinosaurs
Captain Commando
Cyberbots
Dungeons And Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara
Dungeons And Dragons: Tower Of Doom
Dynasty Wars
Final Fight
King Of Dragons
Knights Of The Round
Punisher
Warriors Of Fate

[Shatterhand]

Cyberbots its actually a 1x1 game, like Street Fighter etc.

I am pretty sure The Punisher , Captain Commando and Cadillacs and Dinosaurs are very doable, I've seen people finishing those games with 1 credit (or more than 1 when played with more than 1 player, but no continues used) countless times. Cadillacs & Dinosaurs is also freaking awesome.

I've also seen someone doing Knights of the Round alive, but I am not sure its that easy.

[CMoon]

I would think AvP would be rather doable and it is an amazing game (I could beat it on 3 credits back in the arcade, if that means anything.) There are some folks on here that have been 1cc'ing the D&D games, so hopefully they'll throw in their 2 cents. I don't know if Frenetic had the 1cc, but he was quite good at it. I probably ought to get serious about AvP at some point since I absolutely love the game.

[Jonst]

Powered gear? Isn't that what cyberbots was based off of?

[KAI]

Exactly, it should be on that list too.

[Ruldra]

Powered Gear = Armored Warriors

Easy Capcom bmups to get into: Cadillac & Dinosaurs, The Punisher, King of Dragons.

Warriors of Fate is one I really wanted to get into but I never last too long in it. Shadow over Mystara is another that really kicks my ass. Some people here (Leandro, Hagane) completely demolish SoM but I never got past the "boss wall" in the beginning (Dark Warrior/Harpy/Shadow Elf).

EDIT: And since you're just getting into the genre, these tips will help you out: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 49#p903949

[Mortificator]

Capcom also made a few console brawlers: Mighty Final Fight, Final Fight 2 and Final Fight Tough. (There's also stuff like Streetwise and God Hand, but I'm sure the OP's talking about their belt-scrolling brawlers).

Of the arcade games, my very favorites are Final Fight, Knights of the Round, Armored Warriors, and AVP.

[MURPHAGATOR]

Yea Capcom had a lot of real nice games back in the day. Almost all of them are fairly reasonable to 1cc compared to brawlers by some other companies, Final Fight definitely stands out as one of the harder ones for mostly bad reasons. People have pretty much already picked out the easier ones, though I will say Shadow over Mystara is not terribly difficult if you are willing to abuse the very very broken stuff that's in the game. The green mage, in particular, can clear most random enemies instantly with cloud kill, and can do various silly loops on a lot of the bosses until large burning oils become available to ruin everything.

[Frenetic]

Hehehe I just got Avengers aka Hissatsu Buraiken (必殺 無頼拳) "Deadly Ruffian Fist" Would that count as a Capcom brawler?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_%28video_game%29

A little side note: one of Dan's Ultra's in USFIV is called "Hissho Buraiken" http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Hissho_Buraiken

[Crafty+Mech]

Hehehe I just got Avengers aka Hissatsu Buraiken (必殺 無頼拳) "Deadly Ruffian Fist" Would that count as a Capcom brawler?

Absolutely! I remember playing a lot of Avengers at the local arcade. It was released for the original Xbox on one of the Capcom compilation discs.

[Shatterhand]

From all those games, AvP is clearly my favourite one, I just find it harder than the ones I mentioned. I also felt it to be quite doable too, but as I've never seen anyone doing it, I didn't mention it

[CDexWard]

Great. So I'll be focusing on AvP, Punisher and Cadillacs.

I find it really difficult to play these games on an arcade stick. Usually they are played on a SNES or Genesis controller but the stick really takes some time getting used to it.

[1983parrothead]

According to former Treasure designer Tetsuhiko "Han" Kikuchi, Fill-in-Cafe's Mad Stalker: Full Metal Force and Capcom's Alien VS. Predator arcade game were the main inspirations for Guardian Heroes' design. Not only that, but sometime after Masatoshi Imaizumi and Masaki Ukyo worked on Mad Stalker, Imaizumi worked on Panzer Bandit and (with Masaki Ukyo) the Phantom Breaker series, while Masaki Ukyo worked on the Mega Drive Yu Yu Hakusho and Guardian Heroes. That explains why Panzer Bandit and Guardian Heroes are similar.

Sorry to go off topic, but this is the legacy of at least Alien VS. Predator arcade.

Merlin from NeoGeoForLife (now in Japan, meaning rarely talks in the forum) also recommends brawlers by Winky Soft and IGS.

[CMoon]

Not to further derail, but goddamn the Panzer Bandit soundtrack is awesome...https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... lvOlfK0npN (honestly though, so many games had great soundtracks back then!)

I really need to find a way to play that game sometime.

[1983parrothead]

To stay on topic, I remember playing Battle Circuit on my old Nexus 10 tablet in front of two toddlers I'm related to, and they enjoyed watching me play it. It was back during Christmas season 2013.

Not to further derail, but goddamn the Panzer Bandit soundtrack is awesome...https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... lvOlfK0npN (honestly though, so many games had great soundtracks back then!)

I really need to find a way to play that game sometime.

According to its composer Kanta Watanabe, the opening of Panzer Bandit was slightly inspired by this anime opening, which was new and became a hit at the time.

For the rest of its soundtrack, he likes North-European style heavy metal music so much, he was thinking of putting metal-style drums and guitars into video game music. Whole of the songs were basically composed of fantastic images, but he tried the metal-style arrangements.

4 or 5 composers including Watanabe participated in the musical competition for the Panzer Bandit organized by Banpresto. Watanabe's demo tracks made for that competition weren't used in the game, but they were much more filled with the heavy metal flavor.

[Hagane]

Great. So I'll be focusing on AvP, Punisher and Cadillacs.

I find it really difficult to play these games on an arcade stick. Usually they are played on a SNES or Genesis controller but the stick really takes some time getting used to it.

The Punisher is great to start. It isn't very hard, it gives you a good number of options, and it prepares you for most other Capcom games. AvsP is probably the best game in the genre, but it might be a bit frustrating if you are just starting. SoM is not very hard, particularly if you abuse items, so that might be a good pick, and it's fun on multiplayer too (other games change for worse in multiplayer). And while it's not a Capcom game, Denjin Makai 2 is very similar to them, and I wouldn't be surprised if some ex-Capcom games were part of the team behind it.

I'm playing Armored Warriors, and it's up there with Final Fight in terms of unforgiveness; no extends, high damage, few life recovery items that give you little life... it will be a tough beast to tame. I have a hard time getting to stage 5 in one life.

[system11]

Never did understand all the love AvP gets, I found it very repetitive very quickly. I have 39 PCBs from this genre and AvP isn't one of them.

I'd look around at other makers too, the Capcom stuff gets very wearing sometimes because they just kept reskinning the same basic engine for years. Konami for example left us with the excellent Violent Storm which is as good as anything Capcom pushed out even though it's clearly heavily inspired by them. Data East gave us Night Slashers. By the time the CPS2 games came out Capcom had rammed so much in that the games started to feel pretty messy - jump from something like Battle Circuit or AvP back to Final Fight or Captain Commando and it's immediately obvious that some of the fluidity has inexplicably gone somewhere.

[Hagane]

The above is so wrong on all levels. Capcom games have lots of variation between titles, introducing new systems and playstyles every game. The Punisher is very different from Tower of Doom or Final Fight, Armored Warriors plays like nothing else in the genre, AvsP with its deep combo system, mobility and weapon systems is leagues away from something like King of Dragons and so on... and I can't get how anyone in his right mind could say that AvsP or Battle Circuit are less fluid than CapCom or FF (particularly FF, which is slow and limited as hell).

AvsP is loved because it takes everything Capcom does well to the next level. The combo system and physics are superb, every character is unique and has lots of options, lots of enemies on screen add extra depth to enemy formations, the excellent weapon system which improves upon The Punisher's, the tight learning curve and great boss battles, everything in the game is on a level of excellence still unsurpassed in the genre. What exactly about it is repetitive? Unless you play these games casually creditfeeding them, I can't fathom what makes you say that, since it offers some of the best variety in the genre.

Capcom was definitely king of the genre. Konami's games on the other hand suffer exactly what you accuse AvsP for: they are boring mind-numbing by the numbers games.

[system11]

Regardless of whether you like them and whether they changed bits here and there, the fact is that they are mostly still the same basic engine and it shows.... Same as Cave really. I found AvP to simply be repetitive and unlikeable, the combat feels like a mess, the gun type attacks didn't feel right to me, the 'throw 200x identical enemies at player every 20 feet' sections are just tedious, and I don't even like the soundtrack. I think Capcom peaked in the Punisher/Cad&Dino era.

One of the stand-out titles which actually does feel quite different is Knights Of The Round but people rarely talk about that one.

[Skykid]

Knights of the Round is very interesting, but I regret selling my PCB after finding out through many attempts that Capcom bodged the SFC version and it's impossible to clear. If you examine an arcade clear (you won't find a SFC one) due to memory constraints Capcom cut a rideable horse from one of the game's critical sections. You need to maintain that horse through the stage and use it in a meth to defeat the boss.

Without it however you're completely scuppered, and even if you can make it through the stage relatively unscathed the boss is a nightmare.

I think it's clear System11 just clicks with Capcom's slightly simpler Bmups, although I disagree games like AvP feel like reskins - it's a superb piece of work in its own right.

That said I'd also disagree Konami Bmups are poor. Crime Fighters 2 and Violent Storm are terrific.

Turtles and the Simpsons... okay, they're just dumb coin traps. I suppose Mystic Warriors and Sunsetriders are run n' guns, too, but they're an example of the company's superb quality.

[MURPHAGATOR]

AvP is very much a game where learning all the finnicky things about the engine goes a long way. The super high mobility that the game has plus the combo engine means you can approach a lot of situations in a huge variety of ways. If you stick to the very basics of the genre (standing attacks), then yea AvP is gonna feel like a mess. The guns are pretty poorly designed, but at the same time I'd rather have them be powerful like they are than useless like they seem to be in so many games. As far as swamping with identical enemies, I guess that gets a bit of a pass from me since its one of the few games in the genre where doing that makes a lot of sense. As far as the soundtrack, it's more of an ambiance thing to me. I certainly agree that it's not a soundtrack I'd listen to on its own to enjoy, but it sets the mood for the game pretty well IMO.

Punisher is alright but it just feels a little to barebones for my taste in terms of the options available (to be fair, yea it is significantly older). C&D feels like a good balance of movement tools and the basics, but doesn't quite grip me the same way as AvP.

Konami is really hit or miss. Crime Fighters 2/Vendetta and Violent Storm are definitely standout terrific games, and Bucky O'Hare isn't bad (if arguably still a brawler), but the turtles games, Simpsons, and X-men are all really tedious and next to impossible if you don't abuse the very braindead loops to attack safely.

One game I'm curious about is Night Slashers. I've heard a lot of people talk about that game saying its great, but every time I've tried to play it, it felt very barebones and nothing really stood out about it to me. Does the game pick up later or am I missing some mechanics in the game or what?

[D]

You'll like this source of info.
http://www.sebastianmihai.com/main.php? ... pth-review

[BIL]

You'll like this source of info.
http://www.sebastianmihai.com/main.php? ... pth-review

Oh man, that's a cool site. I miss the days of shrines and the like.

[system11]

Also - obligatory Crime Fighters mention. Do not play anything other than the 2p JP version.

[MURPHAGATOR]

Also - obligatory Crime Fighters mention. Do not play anything other than the 2p JP version.

I know I've seen you mention this before but what exactly are the differences between J and other versions for that? Does Vendetta have similar changes or just the aesthetic stuff with the dogs?

[system11]

Also - obligatory Crime Fighters mention. Do not play anything other than the 2p JP version.

I know I've seen you mention this before but what exactly are the differences between J and other versions for that? Does Vendetta have similar changes or just the aesthetic stuff with the dogs?

World one is censored in a few places but otherwise OK, normal 2p with life blocks. US one has a horrible ever-ticking life counter geared to slurping lots of coins from 4 players.

Not sure about Vendetta changes.

[jepjepjep]

Vendetta US was censored by taking out the gay biker that hugs you, and the dogs that hump your legs.

[1983parrothead]

Vendetta US was censored by taking out the gay biker that hugs you, and the dogs that hump your legs.

Perhaps in all versions of Legionnaire by TAD Corporation, some fat dudes can give the fourth wall a finger.

[Hagane]

Regardless of whether you like them and whether they changed bits here and there, the fact is that they are mostly still the same basic engine and it shows....

Armored Warriors is completely different from any Capcom game, Alien Vs. Predator plays nothing like games before it, same with Dungeons and Dragons, and so on... they don't change bits here and there, we are talking about entire combo systems, enemy numbers on screen, physics, playstyles and character archetypes, moves, mobility options... if you don't see the world of difference between games, you just haven't played them enough to be able to tell.

On another note, I've found that Armored Warriors isn't that hard, it's just very punishing. AvsP is actually harder, but it gives you more life refill items. Once you begin to take advantage of the game's particularities (its movement and weapon systems) the game becomes much more manageable. I've started to hit stage 7 consistently, and I've figured out the final boss so a 1CC should not be far. And contrary to popular belief, you don't need to abuse the Turbo Jet. I'm using Treads + Laser Blade and a clear is perfectly doable with that. Once I clear it I will do a more detailed writeup to help people with the game.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm not even a huge fan (though I do like them) but I have to agree with Hagane here that each game feels fundamentally different. I might even go so far as to say that, based on the earlier Cave comparison, each of Capcoms brawlers feel even more unique and original when compared to eachother than Caves output.