IcyCalm is making a game..

[endoKarb]

When only thinking about the maximum potential for complexity, 3D is superior.

Not even remotely.

[Skykid]

When only thinking about the maximum potential for complexity, 3D is superior.

Not even remotely.

Why?

Take Tetris and reshape it in 3D, as if you're building a Rubix Cube. The third dimension has added several layers of complexity.

Doesn't mean it's a good game, of course.

[Mischief Maker]

I think everyone is missing the REAL point of icycalm's argument:

I'd say his earliest articles did raise some interesting points for discussion. His arcade culture one specifically. Of course, reading the article, you're going to see him praising 2D games to the hilt.

Why the change? Simple. Icycalm sucks at shmups and other 2D arcade games, so he's been shifting the goalposts ever since to make himself number 1. At first he was saying that being able to 1CC a game was the ultimate accomplishment and playing for score was just for NEEERDS! I think even 1CCing 2D action games was proving to be a hell of a challenge for him, so he shifted the goalposts again and is saying easier 3D games like Farcry are inherently superior. He's just furiously trying to shift the focus of the argument until he finds the perspective that puts himself on top.



On a tangental note, I'm reminded of a lecture I saw once debunking creationism where the lecturer made the point that another way to say "complex" is "messy."

[Squire Grooktook]

When only thinking about the maximum potential for complexity, 3D is superior.

Not even remotely.

Why?

Take Tetris and reshape it in 3D, as if you're building a Rubix Cube. The third dimension has added several layers of complexity.

Doesn't mean it's a good game, of course.

I think there are some genres and types of games where 3d simply cannot add anything additional to the experience (complexity or otherwise), and at worse can and will detract from the experience.

For example, take Dodonpachi and make it fully 3d gameplay with bullet hell coming from every angle. Even if the new need for a camera were somehow executed amazingly well, all you're still going to end up with is an unplayable mess of depth perception related head aches and patterns that are un-sight readable due to bullets hiding behind eachother. It's not more complex, it's just broken and unplayable.

Shmups and difficult 2d games are generally built upon absolute information, something you can't really have when objects can hide behind each-other or are difficult to tell their distances apart, which comes with the territory of a third dimension.

[Shatterhand]

I haven't seen this topic before. This is hilarious

The design document is several pages long (perhaps 3 or 4 or so, I can't tell because I am writing in Wordpad)

Can someone really take this guy seriously?

[stryc9]

I think everyone is missing the REAL point of icycalm's argument:

I'd say his earliest articles did raise some interesting points for discussion. His arcade culture one specifically. Of course, reading the article, you're going to see him praising 2D games to the hilt.

Why the change? Simple. Icycalm sucks at shmups and other 2D arcade games, so he's been shifting the goalposts ever since to make himself number 1. At first he was saying that being able to 1CC a game was the ultimate accomplishment and playing for score was just for NEEERDS! I think even 1CCing 2D action games was proving to be a hell of a challenge for him, so he shifted the goalposts again and is saying easier 3D games like Farcry are inherently superior. He's just furiously trying to shift the focus of the argument until he finds the perspective that puts himself on top.

This.

[ACSeraph]

I think everyone is missing the REAL point of icycalm's argument:

I'd say his earliest articles did raise some interesting points for discussion. His arcade culture one specifically. Of course, reading the article, you're going to see him praising 2D games to the hilt.

Why the change? Simple. Icycalm sucks at shmups and other 2D arcade games, so he's been shifting the goalposts ever since to make himself number 1. At first he was saying that being able to 1CC a game was the ultimate accomplishment and playing for score was just for NEEERDS! I think even 1CCing 2D action games was proving to be a hell of a challenge for him, so he shifted the goalposts again and is saying easier 3D games like Farcry are inherently superior. He's just furiously trying to shift the focus of the argument until he finds the perspective that puts himself on top.

This.

Yeah I've been thinking this for a while too.

[Skykid]

^ Mischief Maker has it, but that's not a new theory. Icy being shit at games was raised in other topics several times in relation to his 3D allegiance switch. He never even contributed a single score when he was here afaik.

Kind of undermines his uber status if he's a little Johnny-no-skills. You should at least have some basic ability before you're qualified to start telling everyone the key to a successful gaming formula by way of philosophical interpretation.

But then he's a fucking twat, and we knew that already.

I was just kind of happy to discuss this particular facet of the argument between ourselves and not in relation to Icy, as noted on the last page.

[Mischief Maker]

I was just kind of happy to discuss this particular facet of the argument between ourselves and not in relation to Icy, as noted on the last page.

Fair enough.

I think the main problem with 3D gaming is that we're navigating it on a 2D screen using tools for navigating a 2D space (mice, joysticks, etc.) FPS is about the only genre that can handle 3D because you're using 2D freelook controls to essentially navigate the inside surface of a sphere, which only requires 2 dimensions of movement.

Until the hardware catches up, adding 3D just adds messiness to the controls of non-FPS games. Just look at surgeon simulator.

[Udderdude]

.

[jepjepjep]

I think the main problem with 3D gaming is that we're navigating it on a 2D screen

I think so too. A 3D virtual space has to be mapped to a 2D display and then your eyes/brain have to "unmap" it to make sense of it.

I'd say his earliest articles did raise some interesting points for discussion. His arcade culture one specifically.

It's nice that he talks about the merits of challenging gameplay, but that article is full of so much misinformation (along with a healthy dose of narcissistic condescension).
-- Claiming that licensed arcade games are rare: Xmen, TMNT, Willow, Area88, Strider, Simpsons, Nemo, Punisher, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs, Macross, etc.
-- Claiming that Makaimura and Daimakaimura are too hard by arcade standards and Choumakaimura is too easy - wtf?
-- Claiming that "To understand the essence of arcade gaming you must never continue. Like, ever."

[BryanM]

The retina is 2d.

Of course, reading the article, you're going to see him praising 2D games to the hilt.

Why the change?

Obviously that was all plagiarized stuff he didn't write.

"Filthy 2d peasants" only has one result on google. ""filthy 2d peasant" has none. Let's fix this people!

[jepjepjep]

The retina is 2d.

but we have two of them

[Udderdude]

.

[system11]

Name a 3D platform game which wasn't:

1) Mostly on rails
2) Frustrating and glitchy or plagued with camera issues
3) Heavily assisted

I didn't say 3D games are better than 2D games. I said 3D is better than 2D. It's a conceptual argument. No matter how nice your apartment is, I still want to live in a house (and before anybody jumps on me, preferring one does not preclude enjoying the other).

I further think that you have cherry-picked the most lopsided possible genre for this comparison. 2D platformers have been broken down to absolute science to the point where even talentless hacks can put together something solid and fun by following classic formulas. Meanwhile even the masters of platforming are fairly amateurish about 3D games. Better comparisons would be brawlers or action RPGs. Bayonetta or Battle Circuit? Sorry, as much as I love Battle Circuit, I'm taking Bayonetta to the desert island.

I deliberately picked a lopsided example, I'm not arguing that 2D is better, I'm arguing that the blanket 3D > 2D is wrong. For example 2D racing games are virtually dead, they are obviously inferior even if there are some stunning genre examples which hold up well even today (try Chase HQ). 3D shmups almost don't exist aside from on-rails types. Brawlers is an interesting idea but Bayonetta isn't as fun as it could have been again due to the camera - I loved that game but I felt no desire to go back to it. I've been playing Knights Of The Round and Violent Storm for years, I will return to Dragons Crown.

But ignoring all that I don't like your challenge criteria. Almost no 3D platformers have camera issues, especially not since dual-analog controls became commonplace. They demand good spacial awareness, which makes them different from 2D platformers, but that's not the same as a problem. "On rails" is in the same boat; I think every single 2D Mario game is more "on rails" than the 3D Mario games. I don't understand what you mean by "heavily assisted". I really love platformers, but I don't see where you are coming from at all.

I haven't played a single 3D platformer which was any good that didn't also have camera problems - for example making a jump when your back is against the wall, sometimes the only option is a side-on view which robs you of your appreciation of depth. 3D platformers have to be forgiving enough to allow people to make flawed judgements and still make a jump, while 2D were able to demand pixel accuracy. Assisting the player is one way to get around this - for example in newer Tomb Raider games if you get in the right sort of vicinity of a ledge you were jumping for, Lara automatically 'snaps' to it through grabbing/stumbling/etc animations. There's almost no chance of missing and falling. This was absolutely required for the games to be fun, I'm sure some people here can remember when 3D platformers did try to get players to jump 'to the edge' and the frustration involved with slightly missing or glitching off a platform because the middle of the character and position required to make the jump were poorly defined. The whole platforming mechanic of accurate jumping has been erased by 3D and replaced with what amounts to route planning and fuzzy judgement. If 3D were better to be 2D in the general sense, it would be possible to translate any 2D gameplay into a 3D world - but that's not the case.

[Skykid]

^ This is accurate, and only accounts for a small amount of similar issues that come with placing games in 3D fields. Much the reason why development has essentially streamlined so much into a method of semi-autopilot that requires very little pad activity for the avatar to perform amazing tricks.

In 2D the player is lord of all consequence, as I was reminded playing Hagane again tonight, and the pleasure gained from mastering even a single element, stage, boss, what have you, is decidedly more affecting because you had to do all the work.

Of course anyone who understands and appreciates all facets of gaming can accept positives and negatives in both realms. But only an ignorant individual would claim 3D has superiority because it offers a different visual experience.

Again, if ever you needed another reason to make fun of Icycalm's utter buffoonery, here it is.

I pray people out there think twice before blindly following the flawed ravings of a clueless lunatic. Do yourselves a favour.

[nasty_wolverine]

I think the only games that work in 3D and not in 2D are racers, FPS.
RPGs, action-adventure work as well in 3D as in 2D, mostly due to the slow pace.
Fighters work better in 2D, however there are a few that work well in 3D, but too few to compare.
Shmups are always 2D, regardless they use 2D graphics or 3D. I dont even know how a 3D shmup will work.

Also, as much as i like DMC3, it feels like a clone of playing zero powered up in megaman x series transfered to 3D with a combo meter and atmosphere slapped on.

[Udderdude]

.

[BryanM]

Hell I could join you right there with a week by week updated thread about my irons in the fire. These days it would be like:

Mon: Was going to work on the thing but looked at some porn instead.
Tue: Assumed fetal position under table. Remained there for six hours. It was very comfy.
Wed: Spent 30 minutes on absolute novice ear training. Horrified at tone deafness. Wish I was under a table.

Argh. No one is half as lazy as I.

(In retrospect my first post in such a hypothetical thread would eclipse Icy's design limerick by a couple orders of magnitude.)

[dcharlie]

It's difficult to come up with a game that uses 3D space in an interesting way and doesn't end up overly confusing/visually exhausting

crush?

Uses 2d and 3d.

[Skykid]

It's difficult to come up with a game that uses 3D space in an interesting way and doesn't end up overly confusing/visually exhausting

crush?

Uses 2d and 3d.

Paper Mario.

[Skykid]

I found this on a very amusing thread on tig forum regarding Icycalm's misspelling:

he's explained somewhere that he uses fagot with one g to distinguish it from the similar homophobic phrase.

That obviously makes it completely OK then. One g totally invalidates any homophobic connotation.

How thoughtful.

This guy's stupidity is reaching highs I didn't think possible.

[Mischief Maker]

I found this on a very amusing thread on tig forum regarding Icycalm's misspelling:

he's explained somewhere that he uses fagot with one g to distinguish it from the similar homophobic phrase.

That obviously makes it completely OK then. One g totally invalidates any homophobic connotation.

How thoughtful.

This guy's stupidity is reaching highs I didn't think possible.

I thought he was Jeff K.

[mamboFoxtrot]

I read this whole thread, and most of the threads linked in it yesterday, and then had a headache all night. Can't be a coincidence -- icycalm has given me brain cancer. Or maybe trying to take in all that iciness gave me brain-freeze.
Okay, that joke was bad, even by my standards.

I think the fagot/faggot/faget/etc thing is just a ploy to "trap" people. Basically, if you point out his spelling inconsistencies, then you're a faggit subhuman aspie retard who only fixates on minor spelling issues because you can't grasp the true form of his attack -- er, argument. "Fagot" is also supposedly a pun: "Bigot" + "Faggot" = "Fagot".

But yeah, I have a really hard time seeing this game actually happening. There's no way he can hold a team long enough, as he's turned on literally everyone he's every worked with. Also, lol there is no technology that can run his game its just too rad. He'll have to wait for thought-implantation devices, as only the human brain - the most complex object in the known universe, according to him - could ever possibly operate his game!

Speaking of teams, I don't think anyone detailed the icy-Recap fallout for those who asked. If I remember correctly, Recap was banned from Insomnia after a dispute over an article pertaining to CRTs and scan-lines that some other member had written and icy was going to post. Basically, Recap thought it was shit and that his article was better, but it was in Spanish. Lots of angry back-and-forths and some random comment about how Shock Troopers' dodge-roll was "gimmicky" and he was banned. As usual after "turning" on someone, icy then spent a disproportionate amount of time digging up shit to bash him for, like his excessive use of hyphens.

Granted, given some lines in Recap's reviews like "it transcends a game to become art" or whatever, his use of percentile grading (I mean seriously, how does he decide on the graphics being 78/100?), and his preference of Japanese cartoony graphics over gritty, "immersive" realism, I'm surprised the breakup didn't happen sooner.

Also, wow, that review excerpt he posted on gamengai. Man, what happened to "videogame reviews should be only about the game being reviewed. Anything else is a tangent"? He basically shoved a preview of his upcoming "3 dimensions are more than 2 you fuckwits" essay in the middle of his review for Kunio no Kuni or whatever that game was. Also, apparently realizing that 3 is bigger than 2 and that Streets of Rage and Devil May Cry are both beat-em-ups makes you the internet's el numero uno most formostest vidjyagaem analist now.

[Squire Grooktook]

But yeah, I have a really hard time seeing this game actually happening. There's no way he can hold a team long enough, as he's turned on literally everyone he's every worked with.

Tell me about it. What happens when a team member (be they writer, artist, level designer, etc.) maybe disagrees with a design choice or questions Icies vision?

YOOOOOOUUUU AAAAAREEEEEEEE OUTTTAAAAAAAA HEEEEREEEEEEEEE

"well sorry guys the project is on hold again because I can't find anyone like myself who is not a subhuman fagot to help me complete my revolutionary vision while working for free"


Anyway, back on the topic of that concept art from a page or two back: To be fair, it's decent art I guess. If I saw it in an actual game I was interested in, I'd still say it was bleh ("brown fps how original"). But here, I'm just impressed that someone who actually knows how to draw better than stick figures actually got suckered in by Icy. I honestly feel sorry for the artist, more than anything.

[Mischief Maker]

Anyway, back on the topic of that concept art from a page or two back: To be fair, it's decent art I guess. If I saw it in an actual game I was interested in, I'd still say it was bleh ("brown fps how original"). But here, I'm just impressed that someone who actually knows how to draw better than stick figures actually got suckered in by Icy. I honestly feel sorry for the artist, more than anything.

Are you kidding me?



Dude took a series of photograph images, jumbled them together in a mess that makes no architectural sense, applied the Max Payne filter in Photoshop, then tinted the picture red.

I wouldn't be surprised if icycalm was the artiste behind this eyesore.



Apparently the Louvre has been replaced by a run down liquor store in Icy's dystopian future. Also: BLADE RUNNER!!!

You really need to look at the blown up image of the first boss and his non-euclidean machetes.

[Squire Grooktook]

Well, I guess my expectations (stick figures) were just really low.

[Ed Oscuro]

I find that picture disturbing.

Mischief Maker, the slanted neon section reminds me more of stills I've seen of Brazil than it does Blade Runner.

re: the 3D -> 2D debate (?!), it comes down to how much / what kind of information you have, and how it needs to be presented (which actually can be quantified, including the cognitive portion of it), and also to aesthetics (which can't obviously be). If I had some 3D stacking for my desktop (and yes, you can use "2D" tools like mice for this just fine - two simple buttons or a wheel on the mouse will give you two extra degrees of freedom, like a Z dimension) it would be so much easier to deal with having tons of windows open at once. Windows has gotten better at this, but not much: They went from trying to smash everything into one dimension (the row of windows along your taskbar) to two dimensions, but not really (we can have windows grouped, which means the one dimension just stretches vertically now). For most users, though, this is probably a decent enough design compromise between flexibility and obviousness. And it goes without saying that trying to actually figure out how many dimensions Windows makes use of outlines the futility of the false 2D -> 3D dichotomy: What happens when you have folders? Portals? Timelines? There are many useful tricks for making use of more degrees of freedom within your application without actually changing the visual presentation of the information. Of course, the greatest trick was smashing 3D images into a 2D space so we didn't have to wait for volumetric displays to play Halo.

[Some-Mist]

Shmups and difficult 2d games are generally built upon absolute information, something you can't really have when objects can hide behind each-other or are difficult to tell their distances apart, which comes with the territory of a third dimension.

what about drunken robot pornography? It was actually one of the games of the year for Mark at Classic Game Room last year. as he explains, it's sort of a shmup/first person shooter hybrid.

[Hagane]

What's incredible is how ass backward the entire notion of complexity equalling superiority is. Complexity more often than not is a hindrance, especially where gaming is concerned. I'm sure most of the philosophers he admires would be seeking a purity of thought, not an eternally complex battle.

Complexity does equal superiority. More meaningful options always make a game better. That's why Super Turbo is better than Karate Champ; you have more stuff to do, and all the extra options add depth to the game.

One does not have to confuse "lots of stuff thrown in" with complexity though. It's not about the number of mechanics but the number of meaningful options enabled by the interaction between those mechanics. Chess is a simple game on the surface, but the sheer amount of options enabled by that simple ruleset end up making it much more complex than a game like Civilization, which on the surface is very complex but plays very simple since its mechanics aren't that well thought out.

One has to be careful when adding more mechanics as you say, to be sure, since a new system can make other aspects of the game irrelevant or less complex (such as parrying in the SF3 games; the new mechanic overrules lots of aspects that made Street Fighter deep, such as projectiles), but as long as every mechanic you add enhances the game's depth, more is better.

On the 2D vs. 3D argument, each is best for different things. For exploration, FPS, racing and such, 3D is obviously better, but 2D has inherent advantages for most arcade genres, since adding 3D movement ruins a lot of what makes those games good.

On topic: LOL Icycalm.