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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:44 am 


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TransatlanticFoe wrote:
Skykid wrote:
I'm too much of a strict arcade gamer, so that makes quite a few genres unappealing. I really don't get racing sims like Gran Turismo. Tarting around for hours tuning cars and getting licenses is so dull, I just want to Ridge Race and powerslide.


The problem I have with typical racing sims these days is that they focus on licences, challenges etc. but you don't get any real racing. You usually have cars on track with massive performance differentials so either end up with linear races or horrendous rubber-banding to even it out. Not a single proper championship mode with practice, qualifying and more than 10 rounds to be seen. Unless you're playing a licenced game with physics balanced between arcade and simulation (not satisfying fans of either), and no proper damage - thanks but no thanks Codemasters.


Yeah, they're boring and I don't want to play them.

That's not what this thread is about though. I'm meant to be asking someone to tell me all the great stuff I'm missing so I can be converted. There's already a success story in this thread: pestro87 has managed to turn someone into a lifelong beat-em-up fanatic with just one sentence. I'm impressed. Life has value.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:07 pm 


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Pretas wrote:
Saying that 2D beat-em-ups as a whole have "aged poorly" would suggest that your experience is primarily limited to games like the Double Dragon series and Konami's lesser beatemups (i.e. TMNT, X-Men, Simpsons), which have gained lasting followings only due to nostalgia and licensing. I think anyone of taste should find that games like The Punisher, Alien vs. Predator, Denjin Makai II, Shadow Over Mystara, and Battle Circuit are just as enjoyable and playable now as they ever were, thanks to their far more refined mechanics.

It's also odd that you mention Streets of Rage 2 instead of 3 as being less dated, since it lacks a run command. This quite obviously dates the game, as running became a universal standard of the genre soon after.


I like Bare Knuckle 3. SOR 3 is kind of messed up. But it definitely feels more modern than 2...but 2's got more colorful graphics, and nicer music. I dunno. They're both nice. 1 is junk though.

No, I have played many beat 'em ups. Most of them Capcom games. I just get bored, even if some of them impress me in certain areas. Double Dragon has aged poorly, but Double Dragon Advance is a nice remake. I have played Aliens Vs. Predator...it's not bad. I'll look into those other games a bit. I'm always open. Especially if it's free!
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:39 pm 



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Thanks for the bemup tips, guys. I tried some and they really did up my bmup game from holding down an autofire kick button!


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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:23 pm 


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If you're just looking for tips on how to play genres, wouldn't videos be more helpful For example, here's a Final Fight Haggar 1CC (the other 2 characters have infinites): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klEL8gnV ... E&index=10

Pretas wrote:
Why can't "run 'n gun" be a subset of the platformer genre, just as platformers are one of the several types of sidescrollers? Considering the names used for these categories, it only makes logical sense.


They could be sub-labels but most historical media has often kept them mutually exclusive. Take HG101's genre listings (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/genres.htm) for instance. There appears to be no logical reason why many of the games are in 1 category instead of another. Again, this categorization all stems from 90s era media so if you're trying to logically rationalize the definitions instead of knowing how these categorizations have historically been used, then you'd be missing my point (or pretty much supporting my point that they don't make sense really).


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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:35 pm 


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How can you not "get" the 2d beat ups genre? its like my most favourite genre and the most commercially neglected imo. I just love the design of the enemies the bosses and the combos and skills that can be learned along the way plus i just love taking down the bad guys and being a 1 man army against a wave of violent enemies every heroes dream! :D
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:59 pm 


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I was going to write about beat-em-ups but pestro got me covered already.

Now, about racing sims:

For me, they're not much different from shmups. You got your car, you got the track, and your goal is to lap the whole thing as fast as possible. There are a LOT of factors you need to consider to get that perfect lap: your speed and gear when you approach a corner, the correct trajectory to take the corner as fast as possible, control the understeer/oversteer of your car, etc. Along the way, you notice that you can take a specific corner at a higher speed, you can go through that other corner using a different line, you can brake a little bit later for that other one...little by little your laptimes improve. The constant repetition to master the track is not unlike the repetitive nature of shmups. For some it's a chore, but for me at least, it's pure bliss.

Some people go even further to improve their laptimes and tune the car: adjusting suspension, transmission, tire pressure, etc all makes the car handle differently and make it more suited to your driving style. Personally I don't know crap about tuning so I'm happy to drive the car completely stock.

And then, when you think you're the king of that track, you go online and realize you're still light-years behind. Other people can lap the track 5, 6, 7 seconds faster than you. You download their ghosts, see what they're doing differently and use them to improve your own times. It's awesome.

As your confidence in your skills increase, you take the courage to join a racing league. You're now competing with ace drivers, who drive clean and know the track as much as you do. Now there are other elements to consider: knowing the right moment to overtake your opponent, when to pit to change tires and refuel, blocking other drivers from overtaking you...

And if it starts to rain? Oh boy, things get a lot tougher to everyone.

Essentially, you can devote an entire lifetime to racing sims and not get tired of them. You do need to get yourself a racing wheel and pedals to truly enjoy them.

Don't mind singleplayer campaigns and licenses, they are merely practice. This is what it boils down to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqzvIF3bJqk
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:26 pm 


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Belt scrolling fighting games - Don't think I've ever enjoyed one of these on anything more than an immediate and visceral level. Really clumsy and annoying. BK3 has perhaps the best soundtrack of any videogame ever, but I can never bring myself to play it.

1-on-1 fighting games - Have tried several times to get in to these. I like the aesthetic of Vampire Saviour, but even that bores me unless I'm really drunk.

Racing games - I fucking hate cars in general, so the thought of spending my leisure time learning to drive one is stupid. Not to be confused with Driving Games, like Outrun and its sequels, which are really fucking awesome. And Mario Kart. And Ridge Racer. Actually, racing games are OK, I just hate Gran Turismo.

FPS games - Make me feel sick, no sense of actual physicality, feels like chucking a sausage down a tunnel. I don't object to 1st person in games full stop, it just doesn't work for shooting. Some split screen timesplitters/goldeneye/halo is acceptable if I am in good company/drunk.

Run and Guns - really want to like this genre, but combines the clunkiness of belt scrollers with the ennui of the physical void of Doom clones. Credit feed a 'Slug on occasion, shrug and leave.

SRPGs - Like having my front teeth removed with pliers for 75 hours.

RTSs - As above, but for less time

Only genres I like are STGs, point and clicks, visual novels and 1st person dungeon crawlers. This is because they're nothing like most videogames. Videogames suck.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:55 pm 


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The flight sim that clicked with me like no other was Sky Odyssey, thanks to the excellent tutorial, no less. Makes for a perfect "my first flight sim", just enable the analogue joypad mode manually (the only PS2 game known to me that doesn't do it by default).

Bmup-wise, not sure if "get" the genre, but the one I found pretty accessible would be TMNT (GBA, Ubisoft). Doesn't get too busy for comfort. Still, I assume those games are better off played in co-op.

MX7 wrote:
Actually, racing games are OK, I just hate Gran Turismo.

Gran Turismo is for people who are into cars and motosports. Not necessarily a gamer's game. More like Pro Evolution Soccer of car games.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:15 pm 


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You should try Energy Airforce or Jet de Go!

Beat 'em ups. Sometimes it feels so stupid to fight and milk enemies in those games.

Racing simulators like Kaido Battle are ok. Yeah, fuck GT.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:46 pm 


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I already talked about it, but it's on topic: shmups with slow large bullets and small hitboxes. It takes FAST bullets to help me get over the small hitbox.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:05 pm 


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The key to beat'em ups, the first skill you need to develop to improve at them, is crowd control. You must learn to identify groups of enemies, be able to group and keep enemies together and avoid being surrounded at all costs. If you get surrounded or cornered, you'll get crushed. If you notice you are in a very disadvantageous position, use invincible attacks to get out. Don't spam them because they cost life in most games, but sacrificing a bit of life is much better than being ganged up and die.

Always try to group and keep enemies in one place. Unless you see an enemy in the group who outranges you, simply keep attacking that group until they are dead. You'll hit all of them with your attacks if they are close, and counter attacks will be much less likely than if you have them split in several groups.

Be careful with the sides of the screen. Enemies come from them and some can attack as soon as they enter the screen (sometimes they can even attack off screen!) and catch you off guard. When you get more familiar with the game you'll learn enemy entry points and will know the safest spots to be at. This makes things easier of course. If you know no enemies will hit you from the back, you can take advantage of walls to corner your enemies and combo them to death. Just keep mashing and they won't be able to do anything.

Never, NEVER stand next to a boss that's getting up from a knockdown (unless there's some way to hit it in the ground like in The Punisher or AvsP, and even then be careful to not screw the combo up). You will get hit by their invincible attacks 99% of the time, and they hurt. Knockdowns are generally great against regular enemies though; they give you time to safely get in close and hit enemies as soon as they get up.

Don't rely on your reactions to avoid enemy attacks. You can certainly use them to tell when an enemy is approaching you (you can easily tell because you'll see quickly move towards you), but reacting to their attacks when you are already close is pretty much impossible. Instead, learn your spacing well. Try to start your attacks from max distance, and never approach your enemies from the front. Always come at them diagonally. Don't jump in recklessly: a lot of beat em up enemies can and will antiair you if you jump from the wrong distance.

Never mindlessly mash combos without taking your positioning into account and knowing where your enemies are at all times. If you just carelessly beat on a single enemy you can get flanked and attacked from the back by other enemies. Only combo lone enemies if you see the rest are far from you, and only use combo enders (which usually have long recovery) if you are sure there's no one close enough to punish you. In faster games like Alien vs. Predator, doing a slow attack at the wrong time can get you in bad situations in a blink of an eye.

Throws are excellent when available. You get invincibility when grabbing and throwing enemies in most Capcom and modern belt scrollers, and that invincibility can be crucial for survival. Throws are also excellent ways to safely deal with crowds for several reasons: first, you are attacking safely from afar with no fear from retaliation (and you'll knock them down in the process). Second, they can be used to safely group enemies together to avoid being surrounded.

In most belt scrollers you get invincibility when picking items (weapons, food, point items, etc). This can be exploited to avoid some attacks (especially enemies who charge at you) and then counter attack.

Use and abuse weapons when available. They are safe and damaging ways to approach enemies. Characters who can keep and use weapons for extended periods of time have a huge advantage on their enemies.

Finally, the best and most advanced belt scrollers are arcade ones, especially Capcom ones from The Punisher and onwards (Alien vs. Predator being their magnum opus) and other gems like Denjin Makai or IGS's titles. They have the same basics as older titles and add lots of technical stuff to the genre. 16-bit console beat'em ups are mostly archaic, have a lot less enemies on-screen due to technical limitations (greatly reducing the strategy needed to beat them), less combo flexibility... I recommend starting with The Punisher. It's not that hard, it has some extra advanced stuff you can do in it, and throws and weapons are really powerful so it's great to learn the basics of crowd control. Watch some replays and try to understand what's going on.

Belt scrollers aren't really that hard to 1CC once you get familiar with the basics. I 1CC'd The Punisher in ~30 hours according to MAME, and so far I've been seriously playing Alien vs. Predator for ~25 and I can consistently get to stage 7. There are just a lot of misconceptions about them that make them look harder than they are or unfair, when they are not.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:31 pm 


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First of all, hearty thanks to the people who actually read the OP and know what this topic is about.

Anyway, a little update... apparently, Wing Commander is starting to "click" with me. Last night I kept getting shot down (or else losing the transport) in the second mission, the one where you have to escort the Drayman-class transport to the jump point. My biggest problem is that I don't know how to do crowd control (in the simulator I usually get busted once I have to fight 2-3 ships at a time).

But today, I woke up early and played some WC... suddenly I was kicking ass and shooting down Kilrathi like I'd been doing it for years, and the simulator didn't trouble me either (unless I fought a Graltha). This kept up for a couple of missions.

I learned one important lesson though: When you drink a soda, its time to stop playing. No joke, apparently Coca-cola fucks with my gaming skills something fierce. On sip and I was suddenly back to getting blasted and coming home in beat-up ships (although... I fucking hate the Scimitar)

Gonna work on beat-em-ups later.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:42 am 


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While we're talking about flight sims, I'll mention that I love the Ace Combat series, particularly 6. On the advanced settings, the controls are close enough to a serious simulation to be challenging and interesting, while the game design remains satisfyingly "arcadey" and accessible. Watching a huge battle play out all around you in AC6 greatly adds to the experience.

This made it all the more sad that Assault Horizon was a colossal dud. Nothing redeemable about that game at all. I was at least hoping that the helicopter missions would be fun, but all you need to do is hold down the aim and fire buttons to automatically kill everything.

Has anyone played Taito's Over-G Fighters? As a very early 360 title, it looks rather dull in videos, but I've heard flight sim enthusiasts praise it heavily. I have played the commercial airliner flight sim Taito made for arcades, Landing High Japan, which I found quite fun after getting used to the controls.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:31 am 



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Regarding Beat 'em ups - others have covered the basic strategies, but I thought I might remind people anyway - Play with a view to the 1CC, just like shooters, never credit feed and think the game is beaten cos it ain't :o

Play 1 credit at a time and the genre makes perfect sense, just like shmups. There is nothing to 'get', they are as compelling as any other 2D action genre when played with this in mind.

the SOR games would be a good start to cut your teeth on a beat 'em up 1CC. The games are completely manageable even on Hard.

Final Fight CD (and presumably by extention FF Arcade) is another kettle of fish altogether, though. Hard as balls.

However, whoever mentioned Sodom being cheap in FF has not played him enough, as you can beat him perfect each and every time - with the right timing, of course :) :)
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:26 am 


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Hey Hagane, what's your take on the older Technos stuff, like The Combatribes and Shadow Force (not to mention Rampage and all the Kunio-Kun stuff)?


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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:32 am 


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Progress in Wing Commander:

Failed a mission, some scientific base got overrun by Kilrathi, I wound up in the Brimstone system with Maniac as my wingman. Thankfully, he got himself killed. The bad news is that now I have nobody to be a meatshield and they all just gang up on me instead.

That's my biggest problem. I don't know how to dodge bullets coming from literally every direction at once. Is there any advice I should take or is this one of those things I'll only figure out with practice?
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:38 am 


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If you don't mind hearing what I think about Technos' brawlers, I'll tell you that despite its brevity and hideous-ity, the original Kunio is a really good game. It totally embraces the concept of one vs. many and gives the player four little scenarios with different tactical flavors. In the last of them, every enemy carries a weapon that can kill you with one hit; that would absolutely ruin most brawlers, but the Kunio mechanics hold true and deliver a tense final battle.

It's no surprise that HG101's article says that the first Kunio game is the worst and the crappy Shin Kunio is the best.

The Combatribes... I mentioned I was going to give that game another go a while back, and drauch told me it wasn't worth it. Man, was he right.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:24 pm 


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lol time out in the first fight

I've almost gotten to grips with the mechanics, but the slowdown is really obnoxious. I need to figure out how to pummel people on the ground - if I rush and knock over the first boss it seems like a waste because he gets up before I can get back to his location.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:39 pm 


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I like to turn up the CPU slider in MAME to get rid of the slowdown.

Bosses will throw you off unless their health is low enough that a ground & pound will end the fight, so avoid, uh, mounting them before then. A running punch will usually put them down long enough for you to get on top at that point, though it can be useful to chip away at a health disparity if you have the time. A pummel's also a guaranteed kill against the regular enemies, provided another guy doesn't knock you off before you deplete their health.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:01 pm 


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Yeah, every time I've gotten on top of somebody, somebody else knocked me off.

The first boss has gotten up every time I've knocked him down before I could even return to his location.

Battles are always tense, I like that. Battles are slow though.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:17 pm 


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I don't know how can anyone not like Cadillacs & Dinosaurs. One of the greatest arcade games, once you learn it, you never forget; recently I played one credit in years without touching the game and cleared it. It's a long and satisfying adrenaline ride as always

If you want to begin playing a beatemup, I say start with C&D

It's even more rewarding to clear Final Fight, due to the special ending... But I guess most people find this one too frustrating for a 1cc. It always takes me days to relearn it when I haven't played for a while


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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:00 am 


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Mortificator wrote:
It's no surprise that HG101's article says that the first Kunio game is the worst and the crappy Shin Kunio is the best.


I've noticed that HG101 often calls games hard or difficult that, honestly, feel to me like they aren't. For example, they claimed that the first Jim Power was overwhelming (they compared it to Makaimura even). I've never played it, but I watched vids on Youtube and... it really doesn't look that hard.

Same for Turrican... they said it was difficult, I found it to be maybe intermediate at best.

So does HG101 just suck at games or something?
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:06 am 


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Jim Power is hard, but mostly because it's clunky, not because you're in especially tricky situations.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:33 am 


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Hardcore Gaming 101 is not a person, thus it can't be good or bad at playing games. Among statements I read on that site, there are some I'd wildly disagree with, as well as ones echoing my sentiments.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:59 am 


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HG101 needs an editor.
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Jim Power

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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:02 pm 


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Edmond Dantes wrote:
So does HG101 just suck at games or something?


Besides what Obi said about the site having a range of different writers, I find it's best to regard it by default as Gamespot / IGN with a focus on obscure Japanese games. That way, when you inevitably read something retarded about a game being too easy because it doesn't limit continues, or unbalanced because it penalises you for fucking up, you'll hopefully be bemused rather than outright disgusted.

It's a useful site for getting a brief, skin-deep overview of sprawling import game series. The "101" doesn't even begin to describe how facile the commentary on the games themselves often is.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:06 pm 


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Even in as loose an institution as a website and forum, there's going to be institutional bias. Accordingly, you'll more often than not see an HG101 article conclude that the best game in a series is the one with the fanciest 2D graphics.

HG101's at its best when it takes the tone "let me tell you about this awesome series I've been playing for years." I never had an Amiga, so their Turrican article got me interested in the titles beyond the SNES. Their R-Type article reinvigorated my interest in shooters, so you have Kurt & co. to credit blame for my charming aggravating presence here. However, it doesn't take long to develop a depth of knowledge more substantial than what most articles cover. I don't consider HG101 a review site, despite it being billed as one, and almost always disagree with its judgements of a game's relative quality.

Anyway, on the 4X front I've picked up the Sword of the Stars collection. I've heard it's lighter on the management aspects and heavier on the combat tactics, so maybe it'll become my gateway drug.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:16 am 


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... after looking up what "4X" actually means, I'm suddenly not sure I've ever played a 4X game besides Civ 1 and Civ 2.

I mean, plenty of strategy and sim games have crossed my path, especially on the PC, but few fitting those exact parameters.

And no, I'm not terribly good at them -__-.

... Also I'm on a quest to play more Combat Flight Sims. I keep getting pwned in Wing Commander, so I can't advance the story any. It's all because I know nothing about this genre, I'm sure of it.

So... throw recommendations at me. I don't care, except it has to be for a system I own (for consoles, anything from the NES to the PS2. For PCs, it has to be for either MS-DOS or else Windows 95/98--and yes, Win98 can play Windows 3.1 games so those are fine too). Just start throwing.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:02 am 


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MM... there were those Descent games. DOS, I think. Been awhile.

IMHO, Starfox 64 was the first and last great flight combat sim.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Genres I Don't "Get"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:32 pm 


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Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 7141
If you consider Star Fox 64 a flight combat sim, then you should play Rogue Squadron II. Technically free-roaming (sort of), but feels very on-rails (not necessarily a bad thing). Disable auto-levelling and auto-roll.
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