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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:06 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
mycophobia wrote:
congrats! they definitely fixed the boss bomb spam technique in X and 3...


What'd they do to change it?


They capped the Slug's grenade firing limit - you can still let rip, but not at such insanely boss-demolishing rates. So while you can still fight all but one of MSX's bosses in the Slug, you rely more on its cannon and vulcan. In MS3, it's only the first and final bosses that allow the Slug (you can finagle a Rebel mech suit for the third, though it's more for style points).

The game engine changed in other, subtler ways from MS1 to MS3. MSX/3's air handling is noticeably heavier, plus they cut the Short Hop, as well as the Mario-style "hold jump to high bounce" off tanks. While I don't miss the hop - in such precise action games, I like to know my jumps are the "right" height every time - I wish they'd kept the Mario. Fun and practical!

Bouncin' 4 REAL
Spoiler: show
Image


MSX/3's jumping HMG sweep is also subtly easier to execute, ie effortless. MS1's input is slightly pickier.

Bit trickier to get that perfect willy-waving action
Spoiler: show
Image

Image


MSX actually took a step backwards, with its turnaround animation eating attack inputs - neither MS1 nor MS3 do this. Easily worked around - just add a "security tap" - but it's mortally dangerous if you're unwary of it, or simply distracted. Tried executing this SHA-WEEET late-game maneuver one run, got the Dead Man's Click as Girida #2 blew Marco's head off. Image

MS3 controls beautifully imo. No glitches that I'm aware of, and super-fine air handling. And I don't know if the shot/melee trigger was changed at all, but close combat is smoother than a motherfucker. Image

Image

They also fiddled with the "crouch to shoot faster" mechanic - IIRC, MS1/X's handgun is unaffected by stance, while in MS3, it gains a higher firing cap during crouch. Can't recall if X/3 differ on the special weapons' stance caps.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:55 am 


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Pretty sure the firing rate while crouching is high in MSX as well, the real question is whether the change was in MS2, or introduced with the MS3 engine (as used in MSX).
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:53 am 


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Mucked around a bit with the ACA versions. Far as I can tell, MS2+X don't raise the pistols' shot rate while crouched (also, despite running on different engines, MSX inherited MS2's turnaround attack input drop Image).

AFAIK, most of MS3's special weapons (and definitely the pistols) raise caps while you're crouched. I still like to crouch while hammering hard targets in MSX... makes me realise it might be at least a bit psychosomatic, haha.

One thing's for sure, I was crouching for dear life VS Rootmars in my current no-miss - I don't think I hit him with a single standing attack. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:07 am 


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BIL wrote:
Far as I can tell, MS2+X don't raise the pistols' shot rate while crouched

That's surprising, maybe it is psychosomatic then! I wonder if they codified it since people were doing it anyways :mrgreen:

BIL wrote:
(also, despite running on different engines, MSX inherited MS2's turnaround attack input drop Image).

I never noticed this, I wonder why it's like that. I have to assume it's intentional if both of those have it and none of the others do. Pretty unfortunate...
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:24 am 


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In what way specifically is MSX "using the MS3 engine"?

Sounds surprising to me that they'd change the game so fundamentally in order to move a few things around. But I also don't know what the difference between the MS2 and MS3 engines are. I'd imagined they just reused the same engine and improved a couple of things along the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:46 am 


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The original Metal Slug engine was used for MS2 and the flaws are pretty apparent what with all the slowdown. I believe the story goes that during development of MS3 they wanted a testing ground for the engine while 3 was still in the oven, so they essentially rebuilt MS2 in it and it got turned into a project to address the issues with 2.

I'll have to find where it was talked about...
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:18 am 


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BIL wrote:
Are you going straight from [forward] to [up/forward]? IIRC, the arcade version is especially picky about that - if there's even a few frames' interruption between the walk and jump inputs, you'll get a neutral jump instead. The FC version is a bit less assholic, but it works similarly there too.


Oh, bugger. That's kind of a glaring oversight for such a fast-paced title.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:33 am 


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I thought the MS2 slowdown was caused by accidentally checking all collisions twice per frame. Was that misinterpreted?


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:46 am 


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Yeah, that didn't seem to be correct when I was investigating the slowdown.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:15 am 


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Apropos of (almost) nothing, Image got a laugh out of this:

EPILEPSY WARNING (`ω´メ)
Spoiler: show
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Never noticed the "187" on the first boss's bullet-riddled hull. An infamous number with much 90s West Coast gangsta rap lore, ofc Image Made me think back to Raiden's similarly scuppered st1 carrier.

Spoiler: show
Image


But on closer inspection, I'm now pretty sure that's a "197." :oops: Never mind!

Spoiler: show
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Metal Slug's fellow ex-IREM effort Last Resort remains the most gangsta STG until further notice. Image Image
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:45 am 


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Sumez wrote:
In what way specifically is MSX "using the MS3 engine"?


Interestingly unused partial data leftovers of beta(? stages from MS3 appear in MSX too.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:50 am 


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CIT wrote:
As mentioned before I mostly approach it like In The Hunt, carefully inching my way forward and taking out larger targets before they enter the screen


Is this Inchboy or Return of Vibrator ?? :shock:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:09 pm 


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No, vibrator is for taking out *small* targets before they enter the screen. And perturbing bystanders. :mrgreen:

Image

"Here it comes, I'm startin' to hum!"

HOW 2 VIBRATE IN METAL SLUG 3 :O
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:38 am 


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Metal Slug left me hungry for some more run & gun action, but rather than the next full course I felt more like an amuse gueule. So I 1cc'd Cyber Lip.

Image

Image

The game is not exactly popular and it's not hard to see why. The controls are stiff as fuck, you can't shoot diagonally or down, weapon switching is cumbersome (on top of that collecting a power-up will automatically change you to that weapon), and some animations leave you dangerously exposed. In some other respects your character is surprisingly nimble with the ability to slide and high-jump (↑+B). Still, despite the stylistic similarities this is no Contra. I think it's actually closest to something like Toaplan's Horror Story, especially considering how all but the first two stages are autoscrollers.

There's also some truly wretched RNG. The stage 3 and 4 bosses have some moves I have no idea how to read in time to dodge. But the real kicker are the fully random sewer stages that you have a 50% chance of skipping entirely. Have fun trying to score in that game!

On the plus side, stages are really varied and there's a nice balance of platforming and action. The weapon selection is decent enough and they each have their time and place (grenades are the weapon of choice for the final boss), although I did find myself using the wide shot most of the time. I also rather like the graphics; not as good as some other Neo Geo launch titles like Magician Lord or ASO II, but with a good use of color, level of detail and some nice animations. The super-deformed Terminators and their varying death animations give the impression of a proto-Metal Slug. Overall it's really rather goofy, with a lot of D-movie "flair." I mean, the titular final boss Cyber-Lip, is a sentient super computer with literal mechanical lips, what the hell? :lol:

Not a great game by any stretch of the imagination, but I did find myself having more fun than I thought I would after my first impression. It's also not that hard and only took me two evenings to clear. I give it 6/10 bazooka shells.


On a side note, Mahjong Kyouretsuden (and Riding Hero, I guess) are advertised in the game. (There's also a G-Mantle cameo.)

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:47 am 


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Shin Megami Tensei: Synchronicity Prologue

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Shin Megami Tensei: Synchronicity Prologue is a search action platformer by Team Ladybug, the team behind Touhou Luna Nights. It sounds like a fan game, but it is in fact an official SMT game published by Atlus. It was released for free as an advertisement for Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey Redux. The download link has been taken down from Atlus's site and to my knowledge there is no official way to obtain the game anymore. Fortunately it's been uploaded to archive.org where you can easily get a copy. It's JP only but there's an English language fan translation.

Synchronicity Prologue is the story of a Jack Frost and a Pyro Jack on a quest to defeat a rampaging Black Frost. Jack Frost handles much like Rockman. He can fire icicles left, right, or down while in the air, and by charging up he can fire a larger shot that freezes most enemies solid. Frozen enemies take less damage, but are completely helpless until they unfreeze. Pyro Jack levitates above the ground and can shoot a three way spread of fireballs, or a larger, charged fireball. There's an elemental weakness system in place. Frost is weak to fire and nullifies ice, Pyro is weak to ice and nullifies fire. You can switch between both characters instantly and only your active character takes damage, so you can Ikaruga your way through mixed element attacks.

Level, enemy, and boss design are fine overall, nothing special. The pacing is nice and brisk and nothing wears out its welcome. The boss fights are the best part of Synchronicity Prologue though they're nowhere near as good as the bosses in Luna Nights. There are some rooms where the enemies only attack with either fire or ice and you can just completely ignore them if you want. Not sure why they'd do that outside of the very beginning, but Luna Nights also had a problem with too many enemies being trivial to shut down so maybe Team Ladybug likes that sort of thing.

It's insane that they put together a professional quality game, released it for free, and then two months later took down the download link and let it fade from existence. If they had tried to sell Synchronicity Prologue I bet it'd have done well. While there nothing too special about it, it's an above average, ~5 hours long metroidvania with solid pixel art.

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:15 am 


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CIT wrote:
But the real kicker are the fully random sewer stages that you have a 50% chance of skipping entirely. Have fun trying to score in that game!


You can control the appearance of the sewer stages, to a degree. If you wait on the Up/Down selection screen for a few seconds the game will always send you to the sewer stage. Even though I wasn't playing it for score, I still opted to always go to sewers, I felt it made it easier for me to learn the game.

I quite liked Cyber-Lip back when I did my 1CC on it (over ten years ago, dang). Even though the controls are a bit clunky, the ability to change weapons on the fly is always something I appreciate in a run 'n gun.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:01 am 


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BIL wrote:


Nothing keeps your ass and balls tip top like alien brain goo does.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:11 am 


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Yeah, but alien acid breath will blow your ass and balls completely off :O
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:59 pm 


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I'm just gonna say it: the Contra III vibrating video proved its point clearly and decisively.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:31 pm 


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No vibrating in Cyber-Lip! :lol:

Ghegs wrote:
You can control the appearance of the sewer stages, to a degree. If you wait on the Up/Down selection screen for a few seconds the game will always send you to the sewer stage. Even though I wasn't playing it for score, I still opted to always go to sewers, I felt it made it easier for me to learn the game.


Good to know! The sewer areas are pretty weird anyway, because I think they're supposed to be the "panic stages" but actually they're super benign and relaxed. :D

Quote:
I quite liked Cyber-Lip back when I did my 1CC on it (over ten years ago, dang). Even though the controls are a bit clunky, the ability to change weapons on the fly is always something I appreciate in a run 'n gun.


What annoyed me about the weapon switching is that you can't switch as long as you're in a weapon-animation. Prime example is the grenade animation that has a slow recovery before you can switch and won't let you cancel out. Definitely don't wanna pick that one up in the heat of the battle. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:07 am 


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Vanguard wrote:
I'm just gonna say it: the Contra III vibrating video proved its point clearly and decisively.


All I'll say on the affair is I remain stunned, yet vindicated. Image :wink:

Cyber-Lip reminds me of Raf World (FC), down to their weapon racks and Terminator nods. I guess Lip is more Blade Runner... regardless, both feature autoscrolling android factories full of conveyor belts and hydraulic crushers. Image Also mid-paced run/gun complicated by sub-optimal handling. I learned pretty quickly to just walk off ledges, avoiding the lethally slow drop-through, and superjump over bullets rather than roll and eat lead (the earlier NAM-1975 understood why dodge rolls need i-frames, to be viable in 1HKO context... Nam being probably the strongest early Neo action overall).

Its worst flaw, by far, is the character bumbling forward a step when you go from running to either vertical. Basic commands like firing upward or crouching can lead to farcical deaths if you're not babysitting the controls. I never hold control dings against earlier run/guns too harshly, with even Contra and its sequel just barely overcoming their ghastly aim lag via sheer firepower and body-count, but their FC versions had established appropriately STG-tight controls by 1990 (as upheld in de-facto Contra III Sunset Riders).

As with RW, I like CL's chibi-grimdark tone and style enough to persist. A handful of its stage and boss designs are great, particularly the looming juggernaut fought as you hang from a bar overhead - earliest example I've seen of this setpiece, much-loved by Nakazato's Contras. The later stage with the SMB-esque mushrooms is cool too. Some cathartic blasting, plus a good mixup of steep jumps and homing pests. I can't quite recall if I've 1CCd it, pretty sure I hit the boss rush before deciding to nab the ACA version.

Like Raf World and its darkly fiery would-be Terminator OST, Cyber-Lip's ultimate contribution is probably extra-game; namely its classic epilogue. Like all fine Engrish, more striking for its ridiculousness. :lol: I am not insain. I have just been evilly reprogrammed. :o

CIT wrote:
On a side note, Mahjong Kyouretsuden (and Riding Hero, I guess) are advertised in the game. (There's also a G-Mantle cameo.)


I've wondered, is this guy a reference to anything (assuming he's not from one of the pair you mentioned - haven't played them myself)?

Image

The style reminds me of Westone's Wonder Boys... also suspected he might be from fellow early Neo sidescroller Raguy. Cute little chap at any rate, could just see him flapping around ala Lickle's dragon Kira.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:23 am 


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New Kiki Kaikai announced from Tengo Project :O
Not a remake of either of the Super Famcom games, but a new sequel! Woohoo!

https://twitter.com/gosokkyu/status/1303596991998353409


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:43 am 


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Mah dick (`ω´メ)

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Freaky timing, just spent yesterday afternoon reminding myself of how infernally good TNWAA turned out.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:59 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:02 am 


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Short trailer for it already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR0k3btl5I
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:30 am 


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I can't top that; but if there's anyone who would take immediate advantage of a newly-leaked English port of Gargoyle's Quest II for GB (and much more besides), they're probably subscribed to this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:53 am 


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dojo_b wrote:
I can't top that; but if there's anyone who would take immediate advantage of a newly-leaked English port of Gargoyle's Quest II for GB (and much more besides), they're probably subscribed to this thread.


Nice! Not surprised to see this turn up since it was reviewed in Nintendo Power.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:27 pm 


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I just did 1CC of Super Spy Hunter/Battle Formula. Died by st3 instant laser, st5 instant death mines, and final stage pits. This game need some cuts like shortening STG section and st2's sandpit, it dragged for too long and STG section alone lasts for 5 minutes.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:32 am 


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I like the st2 pits - if you position the car right, by accelerating to max before swerving hard to the side, you can cut through diagonally at top speed, even as the car is pushed downscreen. Feels badass, especially if you've got Homing turrets to blow away the sniper helis. Did you notice the oasis's secret? :smile:

The st5 STG section is indeed ridiculously overlong. I still don't particularly mind, with the kicking BGM and thumping explosions, and the engine is quality... I think a talented arranger could've made an excellent Toaplanesque out of it. Should've been a quick, tight gunboat alley, ala Hishouzame or Kyuukyoku Tiger's second stages.

I wish the second loop let you keep your first loop upgrades. It's not entirely successful either way - relies on blizzards of suicide bullets, which you need to strategically tank through while grabbing armour restores - but it'd be a lot more enjoyable without having to redo the lengthy powerup curve. Predictably, stage 1 ends up being the loop's toughest.

The loop does make boss battles especially tense, since there's no armour restores there, and destroyed boss parts release vicious revenge bullets. It's a super-cool game overall, though Metal Storm schools it on arcade-tough loop design.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:39 pm 


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I didn't even realize it had a loop. Specific to the JP ver or something? Does it have a special 2nd loop ending or just infinitely loops with difficulty maxing out?
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