Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Marc
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

I'll end up picking up Athena if it ever goes on sale. I loved it on the Speccy as a kid, though I'd have been about 8 (I'm guessing '85-ish?).
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Sumez
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

(Re: Power Blade hack)
Sumez wrote:The game probably intends for you to replay the entire stage if you die at the final boss
That was it. The final boss checkpoint is now "fixed" so it just stays at the final ladder before the boss room.

I also fixed the grenade glitch from the original game which kills certain bosses instantly if you fire it right as the door closes.

And finally I looked into the knockback mechanics. Curiously it seems like the game was originally built around the "expert" mode, and the knockback isn't glitchy, it's just poorly designed. There are a bunch of conditions which cause knockbacks to not happen. If you're jumping or on a stairs, you will never get knocked back (and what's the fun in that??), and furthermore you'll only be knocked back if the object that hits you is "running" left or right (I guess, "pushing" the player). And due to how the object state works, projectiles are never treated as such, so they won't cause knockbacks either.

Basically, I just scrapped all of that, and from what I've seen so far it works just fine. Now every time you take damage you'll be knocked back no matter the condition. Players gotta git gud. :D

I've done enough changes that I'll now consider my hack in v1.0. I feel like this is a solid improvement of Power Blade that puts it closer to the other Natsume action platformers on the system.

Image
V1.1 download


EDIT: Patched it up a little, so that you can no longer choose the disabled ration item, but the pause screen just shows the number of lives left instead.
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Vanguard
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Sumez wrote:And finally I looked into the knockback mechanics. Curiously it seems like the game was originally built around the "expert" mode, and the knockback isn't glitchy, it's just poorly designed. There are a bunch of conditions which cause knockbacks to not happen. If you're jumping or on a stairs, you will never get knocked back (and what's the fun in that??), and furthermore you'll only be knocked back if the object that hits you is "running" left or right (I guess, "pushing" the player). And due to how the object state works, projectiles are never treated as such, so they won't cause knockbacks either.
They did that on purpose? Can't say I expected that. Thanks for looking into it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

I'd imagine some of those situations probably created some unwanted scenarios, but I just played through the game with the new adjustments, and it plays just fine to me. It feels very natural.
Maybe there are some damageboost shortcuts available now? I wouldn't mind that, honestly. The checkpoint mechanic already means you can deathwarp to the Stage 5 boss immediately after getting the key card, which IMO is kinda cool.
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bottino
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by bottino »

Yeaaah, Holy Water is rusting me...

Finally got the 1cc.
Image Image

Made a few silly mistakes, mostly due to me being really tired today. Had an excellent Dracula fight, but almost got screwed by THE CURSE OF MEN.

And to think that years ago I could barely get past stage 2... :)

Great game. Love Stage 5, what wonderful design.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

Grats!

Yeah such a wonderfully tight little game, that Castlevania :^)

Hold on : this can't be correct. some yougins on Youtube are saying that OLD GAMES = BAD DESIGN :'(
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

Athena is a guilty "pleasure" game for me, but it's not what I would call good. Odd thing is that the NES/FC version had some improvements over the AC (most notably Athena having higher jumps from the start), though adds some of its own kitschiness. I'm under the impression that the power ups aren't completely random (hiding places seemed consistent for some items), though both AC and NES are mean with power ups and power downs, as well as the awkwardness of some weapons not being able to destroy rocks.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by WelshMegalodon »

FinalBaton wrote:OLD GAMES = BAD DESIGN
Yeah, dude, don't you know how terrible chess is? White always gets the first move - it's so unbalanced! And don't even get me started on tic-tac-toe.
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This is my new word for children under 13.
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FinalBaton
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

chess = RACIST :'(

made a typo and left out an ''N'' in previous post, eh? oh well. only makes it look closer to ''gynoug'' :mrgreen: and we all know what that entails :mrgreen:
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

bottino wrote:Made a few silly mistakes, mostly due to me being really tired today. Had an excellent Dracula fight, but almost got screwed by THE CURSE OF MEN.

And to think that years ago I could barely get past stage 2... :)

Great game. Love Stage 5, what wonderful design.
Nicely done! I still remember finally taking out Dracula, having bought a CV1 cart in a fit of pique circa 2000. None of my circle of friends ever managed it back in the NES days, so there was quite a grudge. :mrgreen: His first phase remains one of the great examples of design economy... simple but immortally (bwaaa!) dangerous.

(DIRECTORS CUT :cool:)
Spoiler
Move Dracula mk2 to st5 (Berumondo: "OMFG! It is GIGABAT, the fruit of the lab's foul experiments!"), then install a holy water combo-proof Death as the last boss. ¦3

Dorakyura's head: "FUUUCK"

Berumondo: "At last, tis truly over. O Death, where is thy sting?"

Death: "RIGHT HERE YOU HOTPANTS MOTHERFUCKER"

*REAPER W/ BURNING RED EYES EXPLODES THROUGH WINDOW AS THE KEEP DERANGES UNDER DIMENSION-WARPING POWER, CONVENIENTLY REPLICATING ST5's BOSS ROOM*

Berumondo: "What!!!"

Death: "hw cheese banned btw"

Berumondo: "shit is for pussies anyway tbh"

Death & Bermumondo: "LMAO!"
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Just got a 1LC in Power Blade R2RKMF Edition. It's looking really good now! The knockback system feels perfect and the new armor system works great as a fragile, Bloodlines-esque super mode. This is what Power Blade should have been right from the start.

I noticed that the new knockback system is in place for both expert and normal modes. The only difference now is the nearly meaningless time limit, right? Might as well remove the difficulty options at this point. Or, what I was thinking, is maybe you could allow two boomerangs in normal mode and one boomerang in expert?
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Sumez
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

FinalBaton wrote: Hold on : this can't be correct. some yougins on Youtube are saying that OLD GAMES = BAD DESIGN :'(
Fake difficulty, man. These games are nintendohard. Do you know why Contra is so great? It has the 30 lives code that allows you to beat it.
Vanguard wrote:Just got a 1LC in Power Blade R2RKMF Edition. It's looking really good now! The knockback system feels perfect and the new armor system works great as a fragile, Bloodlines-esque super mode. This is what Power Blade should have been right from the start.
<3
I noticed that the new knockback system is in place for both expert and normal modes. The only difference now is the nearly meaningless time limit, right? Might as well remove the difficulty options at this point. Or, what I was thinking, is maybe you could allow two boomerangs in normal mode and one boomerang in expert?
I was thinking of something like that, but I thought it wasn't too important. Honestly, I'd consider making a harder expert mode instead of an easier normal one. :)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

The whole "Nintendo Hard" trope are mostly misunderstood. Games are Nintendo Hard if they're genuinely challenging, not something like NES Ghost and Goblins or US Battletoads which are broken asf.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Got some Power Blade replays:

Expert one life clear

R2RKMF Edition one life clear
Sumez wrote:I was thinking of something like that, but I thought it wasn't too important. Honestly, I'd consider making a harder expert mode instead of an easier normal one. :)
If you're not looking to alter the level designs themselves then it'd be good to weaken health items a bit. They're way too generous, might be worth changing them even for normal mode. I know earlier I said your hack was hard, but mostly it's like Kage where if you run afoul of the powerdown system you get pummeled into dust. That's less true now with permanent red boomerangs, as long as you don't let your range fall to the minimum you should be alright.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

That's definitely true for Kage, and even to some extent Shatterhand (it's not as devastating, but it just feels so clumsy when you don't have the red jacket).
I was contemplating something similar for Power Blade, like going back to blue boomerang if you take a hit (despite spawning with a red one), but then I realized the power armor does exactly that thing. And even though the game gets very easy with it, it also feels like a well earned reward for keeping a flow going, which is very much in line with Natsume's other R2RKMF games.
It's also one of the points in favor of the game's more open design I think, that every armor pickup is a little out of the way to go pick up. It feels like a fitting reward for a small detour, that could also be seen as sacrificing a smoother flow for a higher degree of safety.

I don't know if I'll look into redesigning the stages. It'd be quite a big task. The way the level data is laid out, there is no gaps between the used data, so I'd have to reorganize everything to do it.

Thanks for doing the video, and great job!
The robot dragon is definitely a tricky boss that feels easy, but has such a short notice to react on, and trying to anticipate what it's going to do usually doesn't work well for me. One trick I found that works really nicely though, is standing somewhat close to its face as I shoot it, and time a jump right as I'm expecting it to shoot a fireball. This timing works so that even if it decides to spin to the opposite side, you'll still jump over that, no matter if it's moving straight or in an arc.
Once you get the Sector 1 and Sector 2 bosses down, it's a little disappointing that none of the other bosses really try to put up a fight. If I were to do more advanced hacking, that's probably one of the first things I'd look at.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

I'm really bad at fighting the dragon. I basically just damage race him. I can beat him fairly safely by running to the opposite side of the screen, where there's lots of time to react and where you can jump over even his high jump, but doing it that way slows the fight down to a crawl. Your method sounds much better. The stage 1 robot is easy, I just happened to botch him in the same way twice in a row.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Yeah it's really easy to be caught in a bad loop with that guy. :O

It actually took R2RKMF edition to teach me how to fight him properly, so that's good. I have a few ideas for what I could do to the other bosses.

The lightning guy might be interesting if his projectile throws were random and more frequent, so you couldn't just safespot him. (I immediately found exactly the same "strategy" as you're using on my first meeting with him - it's way too obvious)
The bees should try to swarm you in other ways once the first hive is destroyed (and feedback on when it's being damaged might be another good addition).
The big robot probably just needs a bit more health so you need to at least dodge him once before he just dies XD

Both the first form of the final boss and the other boss that teleports could probably also do well with a shorter downtime between teleports. So much waiting around in those fights.

EDIT: Tried out the last thing, and it definitely helps the pace of both fights, and in the case of the Sector 5 boss, it actually makes that fight a lot more involving, because you'll still be dodging the previous attack while reacting to his next location.

EDIT2: Revamped the lightning guy, too. Desyncing his movement from his firing pattern took a lot of reverse engineering and code altering, and ultimately it made very little difference due to the safety of the room's far corners.
However, I managed to fix his aim with a dumb little hack, eliminating any safespots close to him, and that definitely pepped up that battle a lot! Damn, this game is really going somewhere now.

None of these changes have gone into the online patch yet - I'm going to see how many of the bosses I can improve before calling it v1.2.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by bottino »

FinalBaton wrote:Grats!
Gracias!
Yeah such a wonderfully tight little game, that Castlevania :^)

Hold on : this can't be correct. some yougins on Youtube are saying that OLD GAMES = BAD DESIGN :'
I await your poorly written hate mail with open arms.
BIL wrote: Nicely done! I still remember finally taking out Dracula, having bought a CV1 cart in a fit of pique circa 2000. None of my circle of friends ever managed it back in the NES days, so there was quite a grudge. :mrgreen: His first phase remains one of the great examples of design economy... simple but immortally (bwaaa!) dangerous.
Thanks!

Indeed, that's the perfect definition of Dracula 1. What's your strategy against him, BIL? I find that waiting in place 1 or 2 seconds after whipping him then moving to the opposite side works quite well for me.
(DIRECTORS CUT :cool:)
Spoiler
Move Dracula mk2 to st5 (Berumondo: "OMFG! It is GIGABAT, the fruit of the lab's foul experiments!"), then install a holy water combo-proof Death as the last boss. ¦3

Dorakyura's head: "FUUUCK"

Berumondo: "At last, tis truly over. O Death, where is thy sting?"

Death: "RIGHT HERE YOU HOTPANTS MOTHERFUCKER"

*REAPER W/ BURNING RED EYES EXPLODES THROUGH WINDOW AS THE KEEP DERANGES UNDER DIMENSION-WARPING POWER, CONVENIENTLY REPLICATING ST5's BOSS ROOM*

Berumondo: "What!!!"

Death: "hw cheese banned btw"

Berumondo: "shit is for pussies anyway tbh"

Death & Bermumondo: "LMAO!"
Ah, so that's what the 2nd loop is there for :o
Last edited by bottino on Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Dracula mk1's deadliest attack, his teleportation, is completely unpredictable - so I just try to stay calm and alert. He's not so fast that you need to freak out - there's enough time to deftly determine his location, then move. Indeed, playing overly twitchy tends to get me smacked, especially in the worst-case scenario of a "cross-up," where he materialises directly over Simon. You always need to retreat in the direction Dracula is facing, before he fully materialises... if you misread the cross-up, and go through him, he'll pivot and backhand you with almost satisfying force. Image

Mk1's fireballs are simply a matter of timing. Jump too early, and he'll blow you out of the air. Let him lock on first, then hop over the barrage and nail him. Avoiding hits aside, if I spot him appearing in a corner, I try to launch a few crosses, aiming to ricochet them off the wall - this can tag on several extra hits. Keeping a cross or two airborne while he's invisible can be handy, though of course, it'll eat up ammo with no guaranteed return. I like to have a few crosses reserved for HITO NO NOROI, to expedite the kill and also insure against his fireballs.

I sometimes try to kill mk1 when he's in a corner, so I'll have as much space as possible to rack up damage on mk2, but again there's a small gamble in letting him continue to teleport... such a great fight, it's got random terror, icy execution, and a healthy gambling element. :mrgreen:

I should note that the Holy Water can cheese Hito to devastating effect - I've never used it, but having gone for the VS Castlevania 2-ALL Nomiss, dying at the loop's mk1 (suddenly remembered I was in a two-hit fight and lost my shit :shock:), it's something I may look into. Every time I try to use it off the cuff, I get myself killed. :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

Or you could spam x3 crosses if you have many hearts, same goes for second form too.

I found x3 cross in general more satisfying to use, easier st5 knight hallway takeout. using this against Death without too cheapen the fight.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Yeah, Death VS Cross x3 is a good balance of ease and tension! Even though you can deal heavy damage while he's in the corner, he'll escape with more than enough HP to kill an imprudent player... he can also nail your jumping crosses with an unlucky sickle, before beginning his attack proper, so it's no free lunch. Pitting your crosses against his sickle dragnet feels like a battle between boobytrap characters in a 1v1 fighter. Like Bridget (Berumondo hotpants & holy relics) vs Testament (DEATH SCYTHE). Image

I never have that many hearts vs Dracula, since I always grab the bridge's Stopwatch and use it x3 (bridge, clocktower summit, clocktower escape). ...now that I think about it, you could just farm hearts at the Keep, couldn't you. :o That'd be helpful. Kinda lame, but helpful. :mrgreen: Then again, the Loop's catacombs are so wickedly unforgiving, and VS Castlevania's Loop damage scale is so insane on top of that, it's total war as far as I'm concerned. NO REMORSE Image I'm probably gonna HW cheese Frankie, Death and Hito when I get back to it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by sharc »

BIL wrote:Dracula mk1's deadliest attack, his teleportation, is completely unpredictable - so I just try to stay calm and alert.
the last time i settled down for some serious extended sessions in CV1, i was determined to finally drop holy water altogether and learn how to handle the tougher parts without it. i came to really love the axe; it's got a slight backswing that can save you in a pinch, the tall arc defangs some irritating setpieces, and it can take advantage of the "critical hit" glitch with axe knights and bone dragons.

that trajectory and backswing just happen to make it perfect for swatting down that first set of sickles that grimmy tosses your way, just turn left and let fly. eventually i noticed that if you hold center stage, you get this setup every time, because it's just one pattern centered on your current position. if you stray too close to the edges of the screen, though, some will wrap around and appear on the other side in a more awkward setup.

anyway, the point of all this is that drac's teleport is also based on you: he warps to a random offset from your position. if you hold center stage he'll start on the right, then appear on the left, then appear on the right, etc. if you get close to the edges it can wrap around and become erratic, but stay in the center and all he does is alternate sides, so you always know which way to dodge, even on the zero offsets where he wants to rifle through your pockets
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Oh shit, thanks. :o I did wonder if there was some trick to it! That'll come in handy whenever I drag myself back to VS.

Axe is indeed a good middle-of-the-road option. IMO it's the Triple Shot that tends to squash bosses, dagger excepted with its lack of piercing.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by sharc »

there is indeed A Trick (undying lords of wallachia HATE him!) i've never seen it mentioned anywhere else, but then this is a game where people will make a whole game design deep dive video without knowing how you earn a dang shot multiplier

incidentally, that 2-ALL of yours played a part in all this, it's what got me to square my shoulders and stop farming for hearts before the showdown like a big dumb baby. i've never been fast enough to deal with the teleports consistently on reflexes alone, so i had to find another way
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Got Power Blade R2RKMF Edition added to romhacking.net

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5240/

This is the version with fixes for most of the bosses, too. I think I'm done with this for now.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

BTW, if you hit the big time, I give my blessing to say it's "Run To The Right Killing Merry Funsters," or any substitution of your choice :mrgreen:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

I was trying to think of one but couldn't come up with anything XD
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

While I am staunchly against sanitizing R2RKMF for any reason, I think Die Hard 3 gave us melon farmer.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

^ Yes! That's perfect! :lol:

We've sold out, Brother Stevens. :sad: Tale old as time. Hit the big show, checks rollin' in, gotta be respectable.

We still killin' em though Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by CIT »

Thread title needs to be replaced with R2RKMF. Seriously.
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