Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[NYN]

Blew my mind as a kid that the game is dripping with xenomorphs and Rip is stocked in ballistics, while the film is pointing out the opposite. In my already damaged state of confusion, I merged the situation from Aliens to it just to make sense of it all. Backwards logic I guess, but it worked at the time.

Coming up on the SEGA side of it, I played the SNES version much later. Boy, did I not appretiate it. Mostly for the differences.
Having the luxury of six action buttons, every weapon is appointed to one. As opposed to my experience where you had to switch. And the jump is in an arc, like in Prince of Persia. Whoa.

But it's interesting that a licensed game gets a variation in mechanics on different platforms (I hear the Game Boy game is top-down.).

Did you play the SNES one yet, BIL?

[BIL]

I always find it a bit melancholic, how upbeat the MD game really is in direct comparison to the mercilessly dark film.

Nope, still haven't tried out the SNES one. Always thought it looked great in magazine stills, I was jealous at the time. It actually got a JP release, which always piques my curiosity these days (I've a weird fondness for Western-made games and/or licenses in Japanese format).

I've likely given up on the MD version for good after this morning's session. Was enjoying Area 4's hive, particularly after noticing the grenade launcher was one-shotting xenos again. There's initially a neat weapon balance triad, based on power/range/speed. Rifle lacks power, burner lacks range, launcher lacks speed. Once the Area 3 enemy buff hits, only burner's worth using. So I was glad to see it gone.

Then I plugged a rushing crawler square in the face with a grenade, and was promptly trampled. Seems some xenos get super armour from Area 3 onward, others don't. 3: What a sloppy game - vexingly so, as with some minor polish it'd be quite memorable. I can't abide by how casually it smacks the player around, especially in a would-be horror aesthetic. Enemy attack power is obviously dialled way down to compensate (at least on Normal) - despite the abundance of cheap shots, I find it difficult to actually run out of HP. Time, OTOH, will kill you dead... that's three seconds lost per hit. Almost like crashing in OutRun, haha.

I've a very similar situation with Virgin's Robocop vs Terminator. The MD one has considerable aesthetic charm, but falls apart on design. The SNES one is supposedly totally different, and I've never played it. I like to leave the odd mystery for later. ;3

[Sumez]

The first is Wendy: Every witch way (GBC). It was developed by WayForward Technologies, and was released in 2001, just a year before they released Shantae. The overall look and feel of the game is indeed very similar to Shantae, which in my book is quite a good thing. From I gather, it is a licensed game based on Casper the friendly ghost.

Prepared to have your mind blown, and fire up a post in the "late realizations" thread - the two main characters in Deathsmiles are called Windia and Casper. :3
Got the Wayforward Wendy-game in my stack of shame at the moment. Picked it up a while back since I expected it could go expensive if collectors suddenly discover that it exists.

The other game, was The Legend Of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX (GBC).
Now this one was long overdue, but I finally decided to beat it. It's the second Zelda game I've beaten, the other being TLOZ:Minish Cap (GBA).

I really need to replay Minish Cap soon I think... I often see people put it on top of their favourites lists, and topping Link's Awakening is insanely high praise. I haven't played it since it came out and I remember being... well, not disappointed, but at least quite underwhelmed for a Zelda game, especially considering that at the time, Link's Awakening and Oracle of Seasons were some of my favourite Zelda games of all time, and they honestly still are. Both are absolute masterpieces, while Minish Cap to me seemed a little more of a run of the mill standard movement for the franchise.

[kitten]

hello. i came to post in this thread because i am extremely starved for discussion about older action games. everywhere else i look is either full of collectors, emulation tourists and tool abusers, or people complaining about older games being "inaccessible" because of their difficulty, and thus having nothing to add to future game design. some people in this thread seem to actually play games. i guess this is my introduction, since this is my first post.

i believe a friend of mine (who does not post here) linked me this thread, and i ended up browsing it for a couple of hours. i believe it was this thread (but it was definitely somewhere on this forum) i discovered that contra (nes/fc) gets notably more difficult on higher loops. my friend had told me it did, but i was too lazy to actually go and see for myself and wanted to write off the differences as insignificant because i like just casually playing one or two loops every few months and then turning the game off. the discussion on here finally prompted me to go past loop 2.

contra is one of my long-running favorite games, and i'd previously done a no miss clear of both of the first two loops, back to back. having not noticed any difficulty changes (i'm aware the game manipulates your rank based on if you have spread shot or not, which my friend made me aware of and i believe is discussed in this thread) and having never been much of a person for later loops or higher difficulties, i'd always left that as where i stopped.



so, i made an attempt to see how far i could get. that picture is from just after having finished loop 10 (famicom version, i pretty much only play on hardware and had to take a photo because i don't have a capture rig, yet) and quitting because i was already tired when i started and my thumb was starting to feel like it was about to fall off from how much hp enemies were starting to have. loop 9 i got through with only 2 deaths (they were both stupid and preventable - i jumped into the first flame jet in energy zone for the 2nd time on this 3 hour+ run because, both times, i forgot how it went low enough to hit you during a jump on the lower level), and then at loop 10 i was starting to fall apart and make total nonsense mistakes. i lost a lot of lives, because of that, drained all the way to just 9.

i feel like the notable shifts in difficulty are probably around loop 4/5 and loop 8/9. the former feels like where things are decidedly different (around when those runners start causing slowdown due to their numbers, if i remember correctly) and the latter feels where the difficulty decided to cap. the score counter broke a couple loops back in my run, and i don't think i would have noticed if i hadn't been taking multiple pictures. is that where it always caps? is this a known thing? i also noticed that well before the score counter capped, the space between extends for my score started to become tremendous. eventually, once score is maxed, it seems you only get a measly single extend per run, probably because they're urging you to stop playing.

i feel like if i were to play this on a better day, i could probably keep going near-indefinitely. i don't feel like my skill with the game really increased at all playing it this way, either, though i will admit i found some joy in playing the game in a slightly new way. i try not to play contra enough to ever turn it into a routine, but it can't help but feel a bit like that, at times, and it would be nice to be able to start from a higher loop's difficulty, once in a while. this did actually give me some very enjoyable opportunities to flex the joy in recovery in this game, however - that rush of infantry near the end of hangar on higher loops is a real panic moment if you eat one there and you're accustomed to only playing the game with spread, as i feel many players are.

[__SKYe]

Prepared to have your mind blown, and fire up a post in the "late realizations" thread - the two main characters in Deathsmiles are called Windia and Casper. :3

Damn, I hadn't thought of that. That's a nice find there, Sumez.

Got the Wayforward Wendy-game in my stack of shame at the moment. Picked it up a while back since I expected it could go expensive if collectors suddenly discover that it exists.

You should play it sometime.
Like I said before it's a nice game, and it's also really short, so you can finish all modes in a couple hours, at best.

I really need to replay Minish Cap soon I think... I often see people put it on top of their favourites lists, and topping Link's Awakening is insanely high praise. I haven't played it since it came out and I remember being... well, not disappointed, but at least quite underwhelmed for a Zelda game, especially considering that at the time, Link's Awakening and Oracle of Seasons were some of my favourite Zelda games of all time, and they honestly still are. Both are absolute masterpieces, while Minish Cap to me seemed a little more of a run of the mill standard movement for the franchise.

Although TLOZ: Minish Cap wasn't the first Zelda game I played, it was the first one I played long enough (eventually beating it) to get an actual feel for the game. I enjoyed it very much, and think it is a fantastic game.
At the same time, I can't really comment about how it compares to the other 2D games of the series, because my experience, so far, is slim.
It's entirely possible that for people like you, who played the previous entries in the series before it, to not have the same feeling for it, as, as you say, Minish Cap doesn't really offer anything new (from a gameplay perspective) from the GBC games.
I guess people who played the previous games, and people who play the games out of order will always have a different opinion/feel as to what game is better/favourite.

I do agree that the GB/GBC games are absolutely fantastic, and I am actually playing through TLOZ: Oracle Of Seasons now.

[Squire Grooktook]

Been playing a bit of Blaster Master Zero. About 3-4 areas in (Sewer equivalent). Some first impressions:



So far, I'd say the game is definitely inferior to the original. My basis for saying that is that the level design doesn't have those glimpses of tight, battlefield fury that the original occasionally channeled in it's better layed out rooms. Second, there's no real improvement on the weakest part of the original, the top down stages.

However, the game is still enjoyable and I would so far recommend to fans of the original. While the level design so far has not reached the peaks of the original, it's serviceable throughout. And the game has a number of little tweaks that make it stand out from the original enough to be worth a try.

Sub Weapons and Hover, for instance, are now both assigned to the same gradually recharging meter. No longer needing to farm drops to use these abilities makes them feel much more like a true aspect of your arsenal that you aren't penalized for using. The slow recharge speed however makes sure that they aren't abusable and keeps you roving on the ground primarily, and assigning both to the same meter is an interesting idea: letting you trade in mobility for firepower or vice versa. I also like that enemies still drop boosts to the meter as well, encouraging you to keep plowing forward for cooldown refreshes.

Also boss fights while piloting Sophia: oh god yes :kreygasm:. Okay they're fairly standard in terms of design, but Sophia getting some love and the climactic end-area duels that the brilliant tank controls deserved is worth celebrating.

The tweaks to exploration are more of a double edged sword, though. On one hand, there's more reason to explore as Little Man given that the "dead end" dungeons from the original now contain additional sub weapons, mini bosses, and other pick ups. On the other hand, there's more reason to explore as Little Man.

Not as much of an issue in this medium, but this game is also what Red Letter Media would probably call a "soft reboot". So far it treads most of the same ground and layout as the original, with the same Earth > Castle > Tech > Sewers early progression layout, with most of the entrances and exits to each zone in mostly the same place. Not sure how things will change though.

The cutesie character art and ost that manages to recall the Sunsoft jua de vivre at times are also charming, as is Inti's attempt to please fans of both Blaster Master and Meta Fight by deftly fusing the stories of both into something with both the solid straightforwardness of Meta Fights sci-fi excuse plot and Blaster Masters quirky frog adventure.

Overall I'd say that this is a solid sequel to the original that, while not surpassing it, has enough new twists to stand on its own. Good for fans of the original, though people who couldn't stand little-man in the original won't have their mind changed by this one.


Still a lot to go however, and I'm looking forward to seeing some of the original power ups and abilities (like the giant laser) demonstrated in the trailer. Will post more thoughts further in, or on completion.

[BIL]

Recharge hovering ala Valken definitely sounds good - part of my FC Dream Hacks list for sure. The original nails the sense of boost, but the limit's overly punitive-feeling. Out of curiosity, is the lightning subweapon still there, and is its targeting still hopelessly random? Always loved its death from above concept, especially the possibility of hopping over and frying charging baddies. Good luck hitting stuff reliably though, even while you're both stationary. 3;

[Squire Grooktook]

Not yet, the sub-weapons are discovered with exploration now: you start out with the 3 way rocket, find the homing in area 2, etc. I'll let you know if lightning or anything else particularly interesting shows up.

[BIL]

By the way, good timing on the RLM mention! The latest Best of the Worst coincidentally provides an ideal GIF to summarise the Alien 3 (MD) Experience. Wish I'd seen it earlier.

Spoiler

[GSK]

Blaster Master Zero is much, much easier to the original and it bothers me more than I thought it would--not only does it guide you by the nose to all the upgrades but it adds additional upgrades that nerf the challenge even further, and some of the top-down weapons are absurdly overpowered at max level and let you tear through bosses before they can even move. Most of the new gimmicks are fun and the aesthetic is fine but it's a very safe, modernised interpretation of the original game that I'm not in a rush to replay.

There's no ideal way to play the game, either: the 3DS version (allegedly) runs at 30FPS but the Switch version has absolutely hideous pixel scaling.

[Squire Grooktook]

Who says it runs at 30 fps? I'm not an expert, but I've seen 30 fps games, and this doesn't look or feel like one.

As for the difficulty, I don't have too much problem with it. Cruising along with Sophia doesn't feel much more punishing nor more forgiving than the original. The most important thing (for me) is how smooth Sophia controls. It's enough of a drive to try and no damage everything that I don't feel too much disappointment at a lack of brutality in outright killing me*. Slightly tighter level designs and a killer extra difficulty mode would put this above the original, but as is I think it's a fine sister title to its predecessor.

The top down sections are cakewalks but then again who gives a fuck about the top down sections in either game. If anything, I'm glad I can cruise through them and get back to the real crusin'.

*Actually the game has killed me a few times when I stopped paying attention. Not yet sure if it's less noticeable due to the prevelance of save points and findable life upgrades, or just less lethal in general. A "1cc" attempt would be interesting.

Also holy fuck, the new "dash" sub weapon is hella fun. Blazing and air dashing through enemies and over pits after a deftly manuevered hover and jump is absolutely glorious. This is exactly what the game needed.

[BIL]

Speaking of annoying mutated frogs, horeh sheeeit!



Pitiful were-frog!
Atomic rooster hellfire
hath riven thine taint

I finally shook up my longtime Alien Soldier weapon config of Buster/Flame/Lancer/Lancer, doubling Flame instead. It's rad, dunno why I didn't try this earlier. Other than because I got lazy and comfy, I mean - I'd forgotten how even a small tweak changes things. After a little adjustment, dual Flame makes the whole Area 1 beastman smorgasbord a lot snappier - no more making a dollar out of fifteen cents on Honeyviper, Babar, Joker and Xi-Tiger. Area 2's Sharpsteel, Bugmax mk1, Sunset Sting and Viblack/Back Stringer likewise. Of the game's first half, only Shellshogun, Terrabuster, Gusthead and Epsilon II really demand Lancer - a single with some backup from Buster/Phoenix seems plenty.

My only complaint is, I'd gotten really good at wiping out the huge battleship's turrets with dual Lancers. Doesn't seem as practical now (not that it's ever practical to smack away its obvious recharge opportunity - strictly for style points). My plan post-Epsilon II is more or less the same; still need that metal-punching triple Lancer power for Seven Force. It's apparent how the game shifts from fire-susceptible to invulnerable over its course, though I still like leaving a spare Flame for Melon Bread (haw!), Cat Bikers and Shield Viper (particularly if the latter decides to be an asshole and withhold bullets). IIRC Flame's useful for killing WOLFGUNBLOOD extra-quick, too, but that's more of a speedrun optimisation given how hard a well-placed double Phoenix Force will take him down.

I'd still suggest BFLL for new players, who naturally won't be able to use Flame as aggressively. Lancer's range and relative economy makes it a much user-friendlier weapon.

I also had a niggling suspicion that SUPEREASY's Z-Leo might not use his throw attack, and played it for the first time in living memory. Damn near fell off my chair after noticing the speed adjust in the pause menu. Had no idea. Leo does actually throw on easy, but the lasers seemed a tad slower and less likely to impale you for rash teleports. Might be my imagination... felt like I was able to dodge them a lot longer than I'd be comfy attempting on hard.

[__SKYe]

That's odd, I visit this thread pretty much every day, and your post wasn't there until now, even though you posted it in the 20th.

hello. i came to post in this thread because i am extremely starved for discussion about older action games. everywhere else i look is either full of collectors, emulation tourists and tool abusers, or people complaining about older games being "inaccessible" because of their difficulty, and thus having nothing to add to future game design. some people in this thread seem to actually play games. i guess this is my introduction, since this is my first post.

Welcome to the forum. I'm quite new here myself, but I can tell you that this is indeed the thread to visit when it comes to hardcore action games (and friends).

i believe a friend of mine (who does not post here) linked me this thread, and i ended up browsing it for a couple of hours. i believe it was this thread (but it was definitely somewhere on this forum) i discovered that contra (nes/fc) gets notably more difficult on higher loops. my friend had told me it did, but i was too lazy to actually go and see for myself and wanted to write off the differences as insignificant because i like just casually playing one or two loops every few months and then turning the game off. the discussion on here finally prompted me to go past loop 2.

This is exactly what I did before. I wanted the 1-ALL in Contra (FC), and ended up getting a 3-ALL. I shutdown the game then, because I thought the game didn't get any harder than that.
I was soon told that it does get harder, and indeed, like you say, from loop 4~5 on, shit starts to get serious.
My current record is a 5-ALL (got the game over in stage 8 of loop 6), so you're ahead of me there.

the score counter broke a couple loops back in my run, and i don't think i would have noticed if i hadn't been taking multiple pictures. is that where it always caps?

I have not confirmed this myself, but I recall someone saying that indeed, there is a score cap if you play long enough.

this did actually give me some very enjoyable opportunities to flex the joy in recovery in this game, however - that rush of infantry near the end of hangar on higher loops is a real panic moment if you eat one there and you're accustomed to only playing the game with spread, as i feel many players are.

Yeah, playing the later loops with the spread gun and playing it with the default shooter is quite different, but not in every stage.
The harder one to play without the spread gun is the last stage (stage 8 ), because on the later loops the little shrimp aliens that are spewn by the miniboss (Java I think it's called) take a lot of hits to kill.
It's is much better to have the spread gun, or to pick up the invincibility item right before it.

[BIL]

Welcome aboard kitten! I missed your post too, it must've been awaiting approval in the moderation queue. I'd vouch for you any time. ;3

FC Hangar exit at high loop is one of my favourite things in the whole Contra series. Although the game is more for recreation plus a little RNG peril than sheer challenge, it gets decidedly intense there. And in a handful of earlier spots, too - I really like Snowfield at upper loops. Good pincer pressure from runners and heavy gunners, plus some precision platforming. The FC's enhanced graphics legitimately improve the stage, I find. Nice bit of visual chaos, with bullets flying and grenades raining amidst the raging blizzard.

[mamboFoxtrot]

That's odd, I visit this thread pretty much every day, and your post wasn't there until now, even though you posted it in the 20th.

Being a first post, it was probably waiting for approval from the mods.



... yanno, I came here to actually post something, but I've completely forgot now. Oh well.

[BrianC]

So far, I'd say the game is definitely inferior to the original. My basis for saying that is that the level design doesn't have those glimpses of tight, battlefield fury that the original occasionally channeled in it's better layed out rooms. Second, there's no real improvement on the weakest part of the original, the top down stages.

One thing I like in the top down stages is the new mega man-ish weapon system where any available weapon can be chosen once the pow level of those weapons are reached. Some enemies and bosses are weak to certain weapons and some obstacles can be destroyed with a specific weapon.

[kitten]

Welcome to the forum. I'm quite new here myself, but I can tell you that this is indeed the thread to visit when it comes to hardcore action games (and friends).

thanks!

This is exactly what I did before. I wanted the 1-ALL in Contra (FC), and ended up getting a 3-ALL. I shutdown the game then, because I thought the game didn't get any harder than that.
I was soon told that it does get harder, and indeed, like you say, from loop 4~5 on, shit starts to get serious.
My current record is a 5-ALL (got the game over in stage 8 of loop 6), so you're ahead of me there.

i think the biggest thing pressuring me to see what loop i could get to was that i had seen lots of people on here typically mention getting game overs from around loop 5/6 to up to about loop 9. the sheer amount of people getting that far had me insecure about never going past loop 3, even though i was very confident in my skill with the game. simple exhaustion forcing me to quit after finishing 10 loops and not a game over ultimately relieved my poor ego.

I have not confirmed this myself, but I recall someone saying that indeed, there is a score cap if you play long enough.

if anyone could confirm it is indeed the score i have in my screenshot, i would appreciate it. i have another screenshot from after loop 9 was finished with the same score, so i'm pretty confident.

(i should clarify again that by "screenshot," i mean picture from my camera. getting it to co-operate and take a picture of some of the CRT's i use is a huge pain - this is the only flat CRT i use)

Yeah, playing the later loops with the spread gun and playing it with the default shooter is quite different, but not in every stage.
The harder one to play without the spread gun is the last stage (stage 8 ), because on the later loops the little shrimp aliens that are spewn by the miniboss (Java I think it's called) take a lot of hits to kill.
It's is much better to have the spread gun, or to pick up the invincibility item right before it.

if you have spread (which is tough to do because of the mentioned bit at the end of the hangar) AND invincibility - even up to loop 8/9 where it seems to cap - if you're jumping and mashing fire hard enough, you'll be able to kill the shrimp dispenser before invincibility even wears out. a lot of players just run into the eggs and keep firing diagonally, when that causes a lot of shots to miss. lower loops do not prepare you for how the shrimp actually move, and if you get there without barrier or spread, you need to be familiar. i found the trick is that they will often go over your head when it looks like they won't, and restraining yourself from jumping is a big key in baiting them how you want. trying to kill them on higher loops is pointless, and it's better to focus on their spawner - believe it or not, their HP continues to increase past where you ended your run, which is ridiculous.

Welcome aboard kitten! I missed your post too, it must've been awaiting approval in the moderation queue. I'd vouch for you any time. ;3

FC Hangar exit at high loop is one of my favourite things in the whole Contra series. Although the game is more for recreation plus a little RNG peril than sheer challenge, it gets decidedly intense there. And in a handful of earlier spots, too - I really like Snowfield at upper loops. Good pincer pressure from runners and heavy gunners, plus some precision platforming. The FC's enhanced graphics legitimately improve the stage, I find. Nice bit of visual chaos, with bullets flying and grenades raining amidst the raging blizzard.

i am fairly certain that you are full of shit, BIL, as respected games authority red bull dot com mentions that it is "widely recognized as the hardest game of all time." please congratulate the pro player in the video for their flawless run, as well, where they stand still and get shot in the foot by a truck - twice! the same truck!!!

i remember observing that bullets are red in the snow field on the NES version, once, and wondering why on earth that happened. it eventually dawned on me while playing the famicom version why. although i do ultimately like the improvements, even the snow, i sometimes find myself a tad visually distracted. it's a great level, but it's a bit easier to get down reliably than hangar, imo, and the trucks make the level feel a little drawn out. visually, my favorite level is probably the waterfall just for its colors and animated water, but i'm very particularly fond of both hangar and energy zone. both of those stages look bizarre, but not quite "alien," and their shifted perspective is some stellar tile work that lets you forget the game is even assembled by tiles.

i do agree that contra is largely an easy and relaxing game! i have trouble telling people this, because it immediately comes off to them as some sort of elitist snobbery or condescension (which i'm frequently guilty of, but not in this way). i feel like it is very simple to get down with minimal memorization, and it's one of the reasons that it's a game i play every single year, usually several times. there's very little relearning process when you have gaps in memory of how things work, and recovery in the game is enjoyable enough that it's not frustrating when you make a single mistake. i have a strong dislike of games becoming routine, and contra is dynamic enough to never allow that to purely happen while also easy enough to stroll through whenever i'd like. my 2nd fav fc game and probably still within my top 10 games, for those reasons.

[Sumez]

hello. i came to post in this thread because i am extremely starved for discussion about older action games. everywhere else i look is either full of collectors, emulation tourists and tool abusers, or people complaining about older games being "inaccessible" because of their difficulty, and thus having nothing to add to future game design. some people in this thread seem to actually play games. i guess this is my introduction, since this is my first post.

This is what I keep telling people! Shmups is not just the best forum for shoot'em ups, but for classic action video games in general.

I had been inactive a few years because I haven't played a lot of shmuppage for quite a while, but I started participating in the forum again when I went on a hunt for online people who were actually willing to discuss games like Contra and Makaimura. The issue is that over the past few years, the concept of "retro gaming" has become saturated with collectors and people who are into the concepts and ideas of classic video games, as opposed to the intricate details that set apart a well designed game from a less well designed one, and focusing on what makes games great to play (even the less well designed ones). Shmups11.org has mostly managed to avoid the fluff, and people rarely comment on games unless they know what they are talking about and have been able to form their own opinion instead of copying one they saw on YouTube once, and I love the community here for it.

Here's a great test to tell if someone's worth really discussing Contra with. Ask them which is better, Contra 3 or Contra Hard Corps.
Neither answer is correct (lol just kidding, Contra 3 is better), but if you can tell that they answered either because it was the game and/or console platform they grew up with, it's not worth it, and you will want to ignore arguments involving C3's overhead levels, SNES slowdown, what they think of the music and how multiple paths gives the game "replayability". However, if they address issues such as memorizing patterns, twitch movements and reaction times, differences between C3's different difficulty levels, and which routes you should take through Hard Corps to best avoid bosses with glaring safe spots - THAT'S when you know you've found people you want to discuss Contra with

And yeah, I never realised NES Contra got harder with successive loops. I think the most loops I have played is two, and I never felt the difficulty go up, but since you're just stockpiling extra lives I always end up just killing the run whenever I felt like it. Now I feel like I want to go for a marathon at some point. I want to at lest get the counter stop.

[kitten]

I had been inactive a few years because I haven't played a lot of shmuppage for quite a while, but I started participating in the forum again when I went on a hunt for online people who were actually willing to discuss games like Contra and Makaimura. The issue is that over the past few years, the concept of "retro gaming" has become saturated with collectors and people who are into the concepts and ideas of classic video games, as opposed to the intricate details that set apart a well designed game from a less well designed one, and focusing on what makes games great to play (even the less well designed ones). Shmups11.org has mostly managed to avoid the fluff, and people rarely comment on games unless they know what they are talking about and have been able to form their own opinion instead of copying one they saw on YouTube once, and I love the community here for it.

i agree, and could go on at lengths about contempt for the modern state of both gaming and its enthusiasts. i particularly despise how speedrunning has become the central focus of discussion in skill in gaming, today, and not 1cc'ing or no miss'ing. many runners completely lack adaptive skill and reduce games to routine and rote memorization (there are very few funkdocs in the world to combat this), and most of the audience to speedrunning has become people who clap at all the wrong moments and need to be told when something impressive is happening. it is very, very aggravating. every gdq becomes sort of nightmare for me on twitter, where everyone i talk to becomes a mindless drone that flocks to livetweeting about the event with startlingly low comprehension of what is even going on. this isn't even mentioning how many of these games that running tends to ruin the finer points of.

i am going to get very bitter, if i continue.

Here's a great test to tell if someone's worth really discussing Contra with. Ask them which is better, Contra 3 or Contra Hard Corps.
Neither answer is correct (lol just kidding, Contra 3 is better), but if you can tell that they answered either because it was the game and/or console platform they grew up with, it's not worth it, and you will want to ignore arguments involving C3's overhead levels, SNES slowdown, what they think of the music and how multiple paths gives the game "replayability". However, if they address issues such as memorizing patterns, twitch movements and reaction times, differences between C3's different difficulty levels, and which routes you should take through Hard Corps to best avoid bosses with glaring safe spots - THAT'S when you know you've found people you want to discuss Contra with

going to be honest, i actually prefer hard corps to contra 3, and it was a long time before i came around to this opinion from how much i once adored C3. i've 1cc'd hard on C3 and done 1cc's with each route/character on hard corps (at least one no miss with brownie and fang - sheena and ray are both kind of boring), and i feel like hard corps' variety, pacing, and presentation ultimately ends up winning me over. the overhead stages in 3 feel interminably dull (the boss of st5 on hard is real obnoxious) and i really, really do not care for the weapon switching mechanic, which i always feel coerced into abusing for maximum efficiency.

i feel like hard corps would almost be a perfect contra game if it had shattered soldiers' control scheme and they made a few tweaks, here and there. for example: fang's slide seems almost too short, in some instances. that weird stompy boss that mandrake sends out is a particular pain that i remember from playing with him because of that, and losing his "A" or "D" weapons (if i remember correctly) feels like neutering. balancing, in general, in hard corps feels a little bit poor, considering how many differences there are in the four characters and the sheer number of stages in the game. the entire slide mechanic almost feels like a band-aid to some enemy attacks not being well thought out, really.

i wouldn't say to ignore discussions of the music or complaints with the overhead stages, but i would say that if that's the beginning and end of someone's discussion, yes, i fully agree that they're probably not worth talking to contra about. it's not that they pick one or the other so much as they're able to talk about why they did beyond aesthetic and superficial observation. asking for someone's level of experience with the game is often seen as some sort of insult in modern gaming circles - people really do not like the suggestion that they need to actually play something to understand it... and they REALLY don't like the notion that simply beating a game on default settings does not endow one with an unquestionably sound level of authority over their opinion on it.

And yeah, I never realised NES Contra got harder with successive loops. I think the most loops I have played is two, and I never felt the difficulty go up, but since you're just stockpiling extra lives I always end up just killing the run whenever I felt like it. Now I feel like I want to go for a marathon at some point. I want to at lest get the counter stop.

it's good fun to do once, but i'm probably going to go back to just doing 1 or 2 loops each time, for the most part. i really wish there was a way to just start from loop 4/5 for a nice additional challenge, every once in a while. you can't ever skip the game's credits sequence, too, which is really a downer.

[Shoryukev]

This is what I keep telling people! Shmups is not just the best forum for shoot'em ups, but for classic action video games in general.

I had been inactive a few years because I haven't played a lot of shmuppage for quite a while, but I started participating in the forum again when I went on a hunt for online people who were actually willing to discuss games like Contra and Makaimura. The issue is that over the past few years, the concept of "retro gaming" has become saturated with collectors and people who are into the concepts and ideas of classic video games, as opposed to the intricate details that set apart a well designed game from a less well designed one, and focusing on what makes games great to play (even the less well designed ones). Shmups11.org has mostly managed to avoid the fluff, and people rarely comment on games unless they know what they are talking about and have been able to form their own opinion instead of copying one they saw on YouTube once, and I love the community here for it.

I couldn't agree more.

I don't consider myself an expert by any means, so this community has been a great help to me in more ways than just shmups. The hardware section has taught me an incredible amount of things about my consoles and audio/video, and the off-topic section is just a great place to discuss older games in general. This thread in particular has been awesome for igniting my flame of enthusiasm towards really diving in and getting my side-scrolling old school action fix.

[__SKYe]

if anyone could confirm it is indeed the score i have in my screenshot, i would appreciate it. i have another screenshot from after loop 9 was finished with the same score, so i'm pretty confident.

(i should clarify again that by "screenshot," i mean picture from my camera. getting it to co-operate and take a picture of some of the CRT's i use is a huge pain - this is the only flat CRT i use)

About the score, I just noticed that the upper value of it is 65535, and that is exactly 2^16 (aka the maximum value representable with an unsigned 16-bit integer), so it's quite possible that the game uses a uint16 variable to store the score (and multiplies that by 100 to get the score on screen) and it is capped at that value.

And, by the way, a pic of a CRT screen is a perfectly valid proof of your acomplishment. Even more so than a proper screenshot from an emulator.

i wouldn't say to ignore discussions of the music or complaints with the overhead stages, but i would say that if that's the beginning and end of someone's discussion, yes, i fully agree that they're probably not worth talking to contra about. it's not that they pick one or the other so much as they're able to talk about why they did beyond aesthetic and superficial observation. asking for someone's level of experience with the game is often seen as some sort of insult in modern gaming circles - people really do not like the suggestion that they need to actually play something to understand it...

But that is the thing, I usually get the idea that many of those people don't actually get much far in the game (if past the first stage at all), and just either base their opinion on the little bit they played, or echo someone else's opinion they've heard/read.

and they REALLY don't like the notion that simply beating a game on default settings does not endow one with an unquestionably sound level of authority over their opinion on it.

Just like the link you posted before were the guy says Contra is the hardest game ever, he's not only complaining about Contra being hard on the default 3 lives, but that it is infuriating even when using the 30 lives code.
Those are the type of people that would prefer to have unlimited lives, dies 100+ times until the end, and then complain about too short/too hard/no replayablity/etc.
But then again, that is nothing new when it comes to arcade style games.

i agree, and could go on at lengths about contempt for the modern state of both gaming and its enthusiasts. i particularly despise how speedrunning has become the central focus of discussion in skill in gaming, today, and not 1cc'ing or no miss'ing. many runners completely lack adaptive skill and reduce games to routine and rote memorization (there are very few funkdocs in the world to combat this)

I very much agree with that.
Personally I don't enjoy speedrunning, but I don't really care that others do. The main problem, as you said, is when speedrunning is taken as the be-all and end-all of video games (especially classic games), and the *proper* way to beat a game (the 1CC and thereabouts) is somewhat viewed as something not worth doing.

, and most of the audience to speedrunning has become people who clap at all the wrong moments and need to be told when something impressive is happening.

I partially attribute this to the audience's lack of experience of the game (or specific genre) in question.
Something akin to when someone who never played fighting games before, sees a match between pros, and doesn't have the neccessary expertise to understand the deeper levels of gameplay/thinking/strategy that are in play, and it just looks like the players are just randomly spamming attacks/combos.
And most importantly, they cannot recognize that sometimes, even the simplest of attacks/moves in the right context/situation are much more aweing that some flashy 50+ hits combo.

I couldn't agree more.

I don't consider myself an expert by any means, so this community has been a great help to me in more ways than just shmups. The hardware section has taught me an incredible amount of things about my consoles and audio/video, and the off-topic section is just a great place to discuss older games in general. This thread in particular has been awesome for igniting my flame of enthusiasm towards really diving in and getting my side-scrolling old school action fix.

Not just discuss, but also finding new games (and soundtracks/etc) from people who actually have the neccessary experience to give a proper opinion/recomendation.

[kitten]

About the score, I just noticed that the upper value of it is 65535, and that is exactly 2^16 (aka the maximum value representable with an unsigned 16-bit integer), so it's quite possible that the game uses a uint16 variable to store the score (and multiplies that by 100 to get the score on screen) and it is capped at that value.

And, by the way, a pic of a CRT screen is a perfectly valid proof of your acomplishment. Even more so than a proper screenshot from an emulator.

i don't know a damn thing about numbers, but thank you, that probably explains it. i try to grab snaps of MOST games i'm beating, lately, with the camera. that CRT and this other small one i occasionally use when house-sitting are both huge pains in the ass about being able to take a picture of without a gigantic horizontal bar going through the screen.

i played through and beat both pajama hero nemo and mugen senshi valis: the legend of a fantasm warrior yesterday, and the tv (the housesitting one - not the flat crt i took the contra pictures on) was very uncooperative in both instances. this is especially annoying when a game advances through its ending sequence, quickly

-

a friend is supposed to buying me a capture set-up, soon, which i'll hopefully be able to use, instead.

of course, sometimes the picture decides to capture normally



other times it will capture me in the glare and the entire room it's in, rather than just dimming everything out, too. seems to be almost random - have to hit the button to refocus a whole bunch and then it's like a lottery. these are both on smaller-than-20" tv's, though.

my 26" trinitron, which i love, generally cooperates (below)

But that is the thing, I usually get the idea that many of those people don't actually get much far in the game (if past the first stage at all), and just either base their opinion on the little bit they played, or echo someone else's opinion they've heard/read.

frequently, yes. i feel like their lack of disclosure on their progress/proficiency is often a silent admission of shame they don't want to be called on, too.

I very much agree with that.
Personally I don't enjoy speedrunning, but I don't really care that others do. The main problem, as you said, is when speedrunning is taken as the be-all and end-all of video games (especially classic games), and the *proper* way to beat a game (the 1CC and thereabouts) is somewhat viewed as something not worth doing.

speedrunning all on its own does not bother me and i'll enjoy watching someone every once in a while. i even occasionally enjoy TAS runs to see how a game can be deconstructed, too. i am much more bothered by the community surrounding it and treating it - like you said - as the be-all end-all of classic games. i feel like the same people who flock to speedruns to gawk at the skill on display are similarly offput from ever playing classic games, themselves, as it makes them insecure about their own skill and more hesitant to put themselves out there and try something new. runners are often mostly doing it for attention, but it is those who give them the attention that i take concern with.

while gaming can be a fine spectacle, i feel it's meant to be interacted with far more than watched. encouraging 99% of gdq's audience to actually play any of the difficult games on display for more than 5 minutes is like pulling teeth, however.

[Sumez]

I really do enjoy speedruns, but I can totally understand the sentiment that reducing a game to rote routing and muscle memory removes a lot of what makes great games great. But a lot of speedruns are insanely hard to pull off, and most of them probably much harder than they look, too. There is a huge difference in how speedruns of various games play, and I have nothing but respect for people who speedrun games like Gimmick! or Yoshi's Island just to name a couple.
While I also agree that I'm not a fan of how the 1CC is not relevant for most speedruns (there are often no-death categories, etc. though, as well as of course many games where a death will always cost time), you gotta respect the fact that the "speedrun" challenge is a good way to add real challenge to a game which might not even be a difficult game to begin with, and in the best examples I have found speedruns to truly accentuate some of the best elements of certain games, that may otherwise go underutilized. If a speedrun is interesting, it usually means the game is really well designed too (either that, or hilariously glitchy)

But that is the thing, I usually get the idea that many of those people don't actually get much far in the game (if past the first stage at all), and just either base their opinion on the little bit they played, or echo someone else's opinion they've heard/read.

This is surprisingly true, and at times I must admit I have found myself guilty of the same.

There seems to be a general concencus that Hard Corps is insanely difficulty, which is funny considering it's probably the easiest in the series (except maybe 1-ALL'ing the first on NES). But if you look at only the first stage and assume the game only gets harder from that point I get that it's an easy mistake to make. It is sort of interesting how the first stage is the only in the game where random enemy spawns has a serious chance of fucking you over, and I often find myself losing a life here forcing an instant restart.

[Shoryukev]

Not just discuss, but also finding new games (and soundtracks/etc) from people who actually have the neccessary experience to give a proper opinion/recomendation.

Absolutely! I've found a few really great new games recently from people on this forum (still REALLY addicted to Parasol Stars), as well as dusted off a few that I already owned and discovered that there was something great under the surface.

[kitten]

I really do enjoy speedruns, but I can totally understand the sentiment that reducing a game to rote routing and muscle memory removes a lot of what makes great games great. But a lot of speedruns are insanely hard to pull off, and most of them probably much harder than they look, too. There is a huge difference in how speedruns of various games play, and I have nothing but respect for people who speedrun games like Gimmick! or Yoshi's Island just to name a couple.
While I also agree that I'm not a fan of how the 1CC is not relevant for most speedruns (there are often no-death categories, etc. though, as well as of course many games where a death will always cost time), you gotta respect the fact that the "speedrun" challenge is a good way to add real challenge to a game which might not even be a difficult game to begin with, and in the best examples I have found speedruns to truly accentuate some of the best elements of certain games, that may otherwise go underutilized. If a speedrun is interesting, it usually means the game is really well designed too (either that, or hilariously glitchy)

i do respect some runners! gimmick is actually my favorite game of all time, and there is incredible nuance to its marriage of its movement and its basic attack. speedruns of it are usually quite interesting, but they do reduce a few of the game's more interesting elements to nothing. the wizard boss at the end of stage 6 is a damned good fight, but you can exploit staying in the entrance for both reliable avoidance and quick kills. that is really boring, and you miss some brilliantly reactive patterns with slight bits of randomness if you do this - and almost all runners do it to some extent, iirc. i once watched a runner play a romhack that removed this exploit and choke repeatedly on the wizard because they had reduced his fight to memorization.

i am capable of pulling off many runner tricks for gimmick and could probably contend with some of the better runners of the game for best times if i applied myself, but i feel like i would enjoy my favorite game less in the process, so i do not. i came up with a unique run after thinking of how to apply things i love about trip world (which my icon uses a sprite from) to gimmick. i suggest giving it a shot, maybe! it makes you look at the game in a new light. there are a lot of genuinely neat and subtle things about gimmick that go overlooked, and speedrunning glosses over many. did you know that if you knock the bugs in stage 2 over, their little flailing legs take on a conveyor-belt property? i love to ride the worm in stage 3 all the way to the water, and say hi to the tree critters without getting in their way. how about the bombs in the palm trees in stage 4? getting on that little miner's cart and firing at nothing with it in stage 5? there are so many joyful, small touches that simply blowing through the game overlooks them.

one of my favorite and absolutely absurdly small details about the game is that in stage 7, the molar-looking-guys do not attack you when you attack them. however, they attack you when you attack the birds. this is done to such startlingly adorable detail that if you attack the very last one, who has a bird on his head, he will freak out momentarily and chase you before calming himself and realizing the bird is fine. you can even trip him up and have him run into the water, doing this, iirc.

running butchers trip world much worse, of course. that that game has only found light, recently, in people running it genuinely depresses me. it is often viewed as some sort of half-baked pseudo-gimmick, when it is very much its own delightful type of game. i find it even more thoughtful than gimmick, at points, but there is relatively little to be had in enjoying applications of skill.

edit: uh whoops accidentally left some quoted additional text at the bottom here. snipped

[__SKYe]

I really do enjoy speedruns, but I can totally understand the sentiment that reducing a game to rote routing and muscle memory removes a lot of what makes great games great. But a lot of speedruns are insanely hard to pull off, and most of them probably much harder than they look, too. There is a huge difference in how speedruns of various games play, and I have nothing but respect for people who speedrun games like Gimmick! or Yoshi's Island just to name a couple.
While I also agree that I'm not a fan of how the 1CC is not relevant for most speedruns (there are often no-death categories, etc. though, as well as of course many games where a death will always cost time), you gotta respect the fact that the "speedrun" challenge is a good way to add real challenge to a game which might not even be a difficult game to begin with, and in the best examples I have found speedruns to truly accentuate some of the best elements of certain games, that may otherwise go underutilized. If a speedrun is interesting, it usually means the game is really well designed too (either that, or hilariously glitchy)

Yeah, I do respect the guys who do speedruns, and also respect the fact that the goal of a speedrun is not neccessarily the 1CC, as there are a lot of ways to do self-imposed handicaps/challenges to get the maximum out of a game. I simply don't enjoy watching them.
You see, I'd rather see a run of a real player, with all the inherent flaws, than see a theoretically perfect speedrun. I guess it's that feeling that what you see is achieveable with just the person's skills and not assisted in any way.
I'd even prefer, by a landslide, to watch a failed attempt to get a 1CC/1LC/No-Damage run by a human player.
But then again, it's that's just me, and I have absolutely nothing against those who like it.

What I do dislike is when people who do like speedruns, get in their minds that the *perfection* achieved in such runs is the only way the game is to be played. Anything short (like a human player's run) is not as "impressive", regardless if the human player can do it on the spot without any help from tools/etc.

This is surprisingly true, and at times I must admit I have found myself guilty of the same.

I think most people have been there at some point (myself included).
I mean, I know a lot of games, and even know about particular fine mechanics in some of those games. Most of them I've yet to play, and in the ones I did play, my experience is not nearly enough to form a proper opinion on them. And I'm fine with it.
The real problem would be if I started stating my *2nd hand* opinion as personal experience in those games, or giving people advice on said games that I've got slim/none previous experience with, based on some random review/opinion I read online (or indeed heard from a friend ).

Absolutely! I've found a few really great new games recently from people on this forum (still REALLY addicted to Parasol Stars), as well as dusted off a few that I already owned and discovered that there was something great under the surface.

Oh yeah. And even hearing people passionately discussing a game here will make me want to pick it up and play it, even if I previously didn't realy tried/care.

[Sumez]

there are a lot of genuinely neat and subtle things about gimmick that go overlooked, and speedrunning glosses over many. did you know that if you knock the bugs in stage 2 over, their little flailing legs take on a conveyor-belt property?

Oh boy yes. There is so much of this. The attention to detail and little fun ideas is what really sets Gimmick apart from everything else on the platform. I was floored when I first experienced the game in its full glory, which is surprisingly recent.

The real problem would be if I started stating my *2nd hand* opinion as personal experience in those games, or giving people advice on said games that I've got slim/none previous experience with, based on some random review/opinion I read online (or indeed heard from a friend ).

You mean stuff like Castlevania 2 being one of the worst NES games out there, and Silver Surfer or Battletoad's third stage impossible to beat?
I still regularly hear people bitch about the dam stage in TMNT being super hard and wonder if they ever played the game even once.

Second hand opinions is a great expression, and surprisingly rampant in the online retro game "community".

[kitten]

You mean stuff like Castlevania 2 being one of the worst NES games out there, and Silver Surfer or Battletoad's third stage impossible to beat?
I still regularly hear people bitch about the dam stage in TMNT being super hard and wonder if they ever played the game even once.

Second hand opinions is a great expression, and surprisingly rampant in the online retro game "community".

ah, man! people saying turbo tunnel is the hardest part of battletoads have NEVER gotten past it and seen the true rote memorization hell the rest of the game is. that is so, so commonly stated an opinion that it's one of the hardest stages in gaming, when nearly every of its many stages after it are significantly more difficult and make it look like a breeze. i always get a good laugh out of these people.

[Sumez]

Yeah whenever people talk about the Turbo Tunnel I just pretend they are talking about Volkmire's Inferno.
I think Battletoads is a GREAT game, but that stage ruins so much for me, and I hate the pure memorization required to beat it.

[__SKYe]

You mean stuff like Castlevania 2 being one of the worst NES games out there, and Silver Surfer or Battletoad's third stage impossible to beat?
I still regularly hear people bitch about the dam stage in TMNT being super hard and wonder if they ever played the game even once.

Second hand opinions is a great expression, and surprisingly rampant in the online retro game "community".

Yeah, exactly that.
But I think it gets even worse when reviewers (or your random blog guy) read a review from *another* guy that didn't bother to play the game through and has an opinion like the ones you posted (hard game/worst game/etc) and then said reviewer/blogger plays the game with a bias that the game will suck/be too hard, and will probably not even bother to formulate an opinion of his own. And then this same guy will post the same kind of crappy review on his blog.

Second hand opinions is a great expression, and surprisingly rampant in the online retro game "community".

This is also a sad thing.
These guys will probably use those biased reviews/opinions as excuses to not ever properly and honestly try to 1CC a game, and also be sure that none of their peers will too, because they all think alike.
And then when someone says that Contra is pretty tame, they'll bite at you, not because you're wrong, but because you're shattering their *perfectly formulated* opinion on said game.

On the other hand, I enjoy reading game articles on sites like HG101 (not actual IGN stuff reviews).
Not because their opinion matches mine, or their reviews are entirely accurate, but because aside from getting to know many new games, it provides with a sort of synapse of the game in question, which I then decide if the game may or may not be worth playing.