Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Ghegs]

I finally got around to plugging in my Rockman cart. It's much easier than I expected, I was getting to Wily's castle in very short order with no prior knowledge about the stages or boss order. I was under the impression that the first game was one of the harder NES entries in the series? Maybe it's just some of the questionable design choices (semi-random movement of platforms required to cross a long bottomless pit? C'mon now) that give it that reputation?

Or is Yellow Devil to blame here? Annoying to be sure, but I beat him after three or four tries as well.

[Sumez]

None of the Mega Man games are particularly tough, but usually have a bit of an entry barrier, which probably gives them a "worse" reputation than they deserve. If you are even mildly familiar with the stages and all the bosses, you should never see a game over in any of the titles.

In fact the first Rockman is probably the most approachable of them, as there is very little in the sense of a boss order. The bosses have their weaknesses, but a specific order is not as set in stone as it was from the third game forward. Most of the bosses are easy to take buster only, and some like Cutman I would actually prefer to use buster on.

That said, the first game is probably also the toughest of the six NES titles. Not by much though, but there are a few things that play in, mostly what you suggested:

1. The controls are less refined. There's a slight inertia and deceleration, even when only tapping in a direction, which can be more confusing than it should for this type of gameplay.
2. No E-tanks
3. The yellow devil. Not -that- hard, but it's a very long fight which makes it very easy to mess up throughout it, and you can't take a lot of hits from it.
4. The Rockman clone. If you have no strategy for this guy, you will die and die and die a lot here. There are a few consistent ways to take him on though, that are easy to get with practice. Of course both this boss and the yellow devil are very susceptible to the electricity+pause glitch.
5. As you pointed out, in general the game is just a lot less polished than any of the sequels. Even Rockman 2 (the otherwise easiest game in the series) suffers a lot from this. While this doesn't make the game harder necessarily, it can definitely throw off some people who will perceive certain sections as harder than they are.

(semi-random movement of platforms required to cross a long bottomless pit? C'mon now)

What stage are you talking about? I don't remember this occuring anywhere. The only moving platforms over pits I can think of are the ones in Gutsman's stage. And if I'm not mistaken those are all on a global timer?

[cicada88]

I agree; Rockman 1's difficulty is overrated. I played the first three games through about a year ago. I had beaten 2/3 before many years ago, but I had never even played the first one. I actually found it to be easier than 2.

Really liked it overall too.

I feel like a ton of these games get overrated as far as difficulty. Contra, Rockman, Gimmick!, Ninja Gaiden, Punch-Out!!, Darkwing Duck, etc.

Love every single one of those, but their difficulty is way overrated.

Some of the truly challenging 8 bit Nintendo games for me are: Holy Diver, Castlevania 3, 1943, Zanac, and Zelda II. Final boss of the first Castlevania was also a bitch for me. Faxandu seems somewhat brutal as well, but part of it is its cryptic nature and figuring out what to do.

[Sumez]

I wouldn't consider Contra easier than Castlevania 3, and Zelda II is a bit uneven with only a few really challenging spikes (early death mountain, island temple) causing it to feel like an overall difficult title. I think all of these are definitely a class above Mega Man, though, and the same goes for Ninja Gaiden. All these games feel extremely difficult the first time you play them, and do take a lot of practice/grinding to find a way through. Once you have done this though, most of them will also feel fairly easy, which makes it hard to objectively judge their difficulty.

Mega Man, though, usually only requires you to be familiar with the levels and boss patterns to beat without continuing (which I guess is our "completion" tracker). It's still fun to practice the games and get better at them, playing them more and more smoothly, but unlike those games that are a step above on the ladder, that's not required just to beat them.

Everything said and done, though, the Mega Man games (especially 3 and 4) are by far some of the best designed 8 bit titles ever created.

[cicada88]

I wouldn't consider Contra easier than Castlevania 3

See this is where I guess that difficulty is quite subjective. I can no death Contra with the peashooter. I would rate the Rockman games significantly harder than the NES Contra. There were parts of Castlevania III where I had to try literally 50 times to get through. The falling block area was insane.

[Sumez]

No death'ing Contra with the pea shooter is NOT easy. Difficulty is definitely subjective

[Ghegs]

(semi-random movement of platforms required to cross a long bottomless pit? C'mon now)

What stage are you talking about? I don't remember this occuring anywhere. The only moving platforms over pits I can think of are the ones in Gutsman's stage. And if I'm not mistaken those are all on a global timer?

Gutsman's stage has those platforms that go on rails and open up at specific spots to drop the unwary player. Iceman's stage after the second set of disappearing blocks and the first Wily Stage, just before Yellow Devil, has moving platforms on air that aren't on rails, they go all over the place (though within a certain area). I'm not sure how random they really are, but it seems whenever I got to those parts they were following a different path.

Easy to bypass with the Magnet Beam, sure, but still kind of sloppily designed.

I really do like the game, tho.

[Sumez]

Gutsman's stage has those platforms that go on rails and open up at specific spots to drop the unwary player.

I need to confirm this, but I believe these are completely deterministic, and it's easy to pick up exactly when and where they open up so you can time your jumps.

I feel like the entirety of Ice Man's stage is definitely designed with the intention of being difficult only if you don't have the magnet beam. Of course that doesn't excuse sloppy design, but I'm pretty sure you're expected to use it here. I don't even remember how the stage plays without it.
While the dispapearing blocks have since become a staple in the series, and a woe to many, every single game featured a design that made bypassing them very simple, picking up the tradition with Item-2 in Rockman 2 and Rush Jet in Rockman 3 and 4. When you get to 5 and 6, the blocks are barely even present anymore.
I always felt that Mega Man 9 and 10 were mistaken to include several painfully long and very deadly sections that REQUIRE you to learn the block patterns with no easy way to bypass them. No earlier Mega Man game has ever done that, and that's because those games are well designed. All of them also only feature one or two small sections where falling from them will actually kill you immediately. Not so in 9 and 10.

[Ghegs]

Gutsman's stage has those platforms that go on rails and open up at specific spots to drop the unwary player.

I need to confirm this, but I believe these are completely deterministic, and it's easy to pick up exactly when and where they open up so you can time your jumps.

They are, that's what I said. The parts in the rail where the platforms will open is completely visible.

[Shoryukev]

As a whole the original 1-6 Mega Man games were designed fairly fell in this regard. Often you will enter a new screen and there will be a new game mechanic happening, but you can't reach it until it's gone through it's pattern at least once. The games are not easy, but I think the difficulty is a bit overrated. Sure to a total newbie they will get frustrated and die...but they would do the same thing if you dropped them off at world 3 in SMB1.

Obviously this video is based around being comedic, but Egoraptor makes some excellent points about the design of Mega Man games in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

[Sumez]

Yeah, that video is full of good points which is amusing if you're ever seen a single episode of Game Grumps and realised how absolutely inept he is at picking up even the most basic, intuitive and well introduced game mechanics.

I wouldn't unanimously praise all 6 NES titles for good design practice though, the series took its time truly finding its form. One of the most obvious examples of egregious level design IMO is the majority of Wily 4 in Rockman 2. Yeah, it will take a while for the holes in the ground to actually kill you, but there is no hint that they even exist before you encounter your first (an enemy falling through would have been a good indicator), and I doubt more than a handful of people ever thought of using the bubble weapon to check for their existance - that kind of puzzle is simply very atypical for the genre. And having to memorize where each of the holes are is only slightly less annoying and tedious than having to check for them every single time.
Of course, that's not even getting into the boss of that stage, which has to be one of the biggest mistakes of any Mega Man game ever. I doubt I'd have to explain to anyone why it's just a terrible idea.

It's all moot though, 'cause from the third game on they started truly streamlining the games, and there's nary a single word of criticism I can think of for any of those games, there's an amazing attention to detail here. If anything, I'm not a big fan of the charge shot and how much it dominates especially 5 and 6, as well as some of the later boss designs, but that's a much more subjective point. Rockman 4 and 5 are some of the best video games ever created, and any modern game designer should still take cues from them to this day.

[Shoryukev]

I tried to watch game grumps when it first came out....I just couldn't get into it. A lot of youtube celebs are like that, their videos make you think they are an expert on something but beneath the surface is nothing, just an empty shell.

I'm not really a fan of the charge shot either, but the slide dash is a welcome addition. It's been awhile since I've played through them all, but I've been a huge fan of MM3 and 4 since I was a kid. I played through #8 recently, it was better than I thought it would be. The cutscenes were incredibly hilarious, not sure if it was intentional or not. Cocaine had to be involved in recording the voice acting for rush.

What you're describing in the #2 wily stage reminds me of CV Simon's Quest where as a kid I would endlessly throw holy water to see if it fell through invisible holes in platforms. I can still hear that piercing sound reverberate through my soul to this day.

[__SKYe]

Yeah, like Sumez says, most of the difficulty of MM1 comes from no E-Tanks and the Yellow Devil (provided you don't use ElecMan's weapon+Pause trick).
Other than that there's ElecMan himself, which can kill in 3 hits at most, and unlike IceMan (who can also kill you in 3 hits) as a more random behaviour, which sometimes can get you killed.
He is in no way hard (with the right weapon), but at least to me, there's always the possibility of losing every so often.

The disappearing blocks on IceMan's stage are pretty easy, really, unlike the ones in HeatMan's stage in MM2. Trying to pass those without the Rush Jet is a major pain in the ass.
The one thing that I hate the most on MM1 are the platforms that shoot bullets on the later part of IceMan's stage.
There's a glitch in that if you get hit by a bullet or enemy (the flying penguins) while the platform is rising, you'll fall through it and lose a life. Couple that with their erractic movement, and there's a recipe for frustration.
Although, again, it's nothing that makes the game too hard, it's just that it gets pretty frustrating.

One of the most obvious examples of egregious level design IMO is the majority of Wily 4 in Rockman 2. Yeah, it will take a while for the holes in the ground to actually kill you, but there is no hint that they even exist before you encounter your first (an enemy falling through would have been a good indicator), and I doubt more than a handful of people ever thought of using the bubble weapon to check for their existance - that kind of puzzle is simply very atypical for the genre. And having to memorize where each of the holes are is only slightly less annoying and tedious than having to check for them every single time.

Yeah, I also learned of using the Bubble shot to find the holes from a video.

Of course, that's not even getting into the boss of that stage, which has to be one of the biggest mistakes of any Mega Man game ever. I doubt I'd have to explain to anyone why it's just a terrible idea.

I'm not sure if the boss of this stage are those "things" where you must have the ClashMan's weapon to destroy the walls protecting them, but if it is, then I'm with you on this one.

I absolutely hate this boss, because if you happen to use ClashMan's weapon before entering it (which is quite possible the first time you play the game), you cannot win, and even worse, should you lose a life there, then you need to backtrack and farm for weapon energy, because the weapon energy you used against him is not restored.
I'm not aware if it's possible to beat it without ClashMan's weapon, but if it is, I'd apreciate it if you guys told me.

[Sumez]

It's not. It's a horrible design choice.

[BIL]

I played through #8 recently, it was better than I thought it would be. The cutscenes were incredibly hilarious, not sure if it was intentional or not. Cocaine had to be involved in recording the voice acting for rush.

There's "so bad it's good," and then there's "so bad it's God." MM8's English dub is the latter. This shit will change your life!

"Dats a good crestion Ro... uh, Mega Man. Fine dat medeor an stahp D-Dactah Wahwee!"

edit: Holy shit, I just realised who that sounds like - it's friggin' Mumbles Menino!

[FinalBaton]

I agree that to some degree, difficulty is subjective.

Put me in the camp that thinks CV3 is harder than Contra though

[soprano1]

I played through #8 recently, it was better than I thought it would be. The cutscenes were incredibly hilarious, not sure if it was intentional or not. Cocaine had to be involved in recording the voice acting for rush.

There's "so bad it's good," and then there's "so bad it's God." MM8's English dub is the latter. This shit will change your life!

Dats a good crestion R-uh, Mega Man. Muft stahp D-Dactah Wahwee!

edit: Holy shitm I just realised who that sounds like - it's friggin' Mumbles Menino!

X4 suffers from the same problem, i think it's just a "pre-late 2000's english dub" problem. It was shit, but it was what we got.

[Shoryukev]

X4 suffers from the same problem, i think it's just a "pre-late 2000's english dub" problem. It was shit, but it was what we got.

Problem? It was the highlight of the game for me.

Those cutscenes took it from something I was going to casually play over the next week to finishing it that same day. If I had played it when it was first released I would have been upset with it for being utter shit.....but being able to see it as a novelty was hilarious and I'd play it again in a heartbeat. The voice acting in MM8 is so bad it makes Ted Raimi's performance in the man with the screaming brain look good.

I've only played X1-3, but I've been meaning to branch out into the later titles.

[FinalBaton]

Haha the bad dub in X games is fun as hell

X3's "Doctor Wawee" is GOAT

Also love X4's "What am I fighting FORRRRRRRRRR", where Zero is channelling his inner Tommy Wiseau


Kev you GOTTA play X4 asap! It's a masterpiece.
People on here rag about it because it's not as deep as the GBA MegaMan Z series but trust me, if you go in with an oldschool mind, you'll have a fucking blast, I guarantee it. At the time it came out I sure as hell didn't wish anything more was added to it... and I still don't.

[Sumez]

People rag on X4? It's an excellent game. A bit of a break of the mold from the previous three X games, but without going off track the way X5 and X6 did. X4 is basically the last good classic Mega Man game, and that alone is worth playing it for.

There are a lot of stage gimmicks, but none are downright annoying, the crisp 32bit 2D graphics are amazing, and playing as Zero mixes everything up in a nice manner. It makes the game a lot easier (and it's already the easiest of the four X games that matter), but I like the completely different approach to how you employ the powers you're getting, making them much more of an utility weapon than the classic Mega Man formula.

I liked the Zero games well enough, they were a nice, needed return to form for the Mega Man franchise at the time, but they have nothing on the first four X titles.

[copy-paster]

X4 is the best in the series hands down.

first Rockman is probably the most approachable of them

I'd say 2 when it comes from casual play, but the first game has an arcadey length and difficulty.

[soprano1]

People rag on X4? It's an excellent game.

Yes it is, it just needs an undub or something.

[Sumez]

That exists:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rockman-Megam ... 1288136679

[soprano1]

That exists:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rockman-Megam ... 1288136679

Har har, good joke.
edit:On second thought, being a sidescroller it's probably not hard to play in JP.

[FinalBaton]

Yes I indeed saw people on here put X4 down And say that it was a watered-down version of the Zero games (which, according to them, are "what X4 should have been" and blah blah blah)

crazy eh? just goes to show how people sometime just argue for the sake of arguing, and can't appreciate what is given to them. Or love to stroke their pecka to ÜBER DEEP game mechanics or something

[mamboFoxtrot]

X4 is good, clean fun. One of the few Mega Man games where I actually like fighting the bosses Buster-only. I do wish it had an XTREME mode or something, though.

charge shot

More than the sound effect (in the 8-bit games), how it can slow down the pace of boss fights, or how it can dwarf special weapons in utility sometimes, what I hate the most about the charge shot is how wanting to spend most of the game with the fire button held down while still using the jump button just gives me hand cramps after a bit. It's at its worst in the Playstation X games, where I also want to be holding the Dash button down most of the time, too. I mean, putting Dash on R2 helps, but not enough for me to really want to play for more than, like, 15 minutes. Not that mashing the shoot button all the time really feels that much better lol

A speedrun of this would be pretty cool-looking, I think.

Turns out a speedrun of Shibibbyboobaman is mostly spamming the girl character's jumping thrust attack thing and ignoring most enemies, rather than using the guy's Hadouken and Shoryuken to kill everything with extreme speed and prejudice.
WELP

[soprano1]

what I hate the most about the charge shot is how wanting to spend most of the game with the fire button held down while still using the jump button just gives me hand cramps after a bit. It's at its worst in the Playstation X games, where I also want to be holding the Dash button down most of the time, too.

Well, X5 and X6 have the Auto Charge option. For X4, you have this Gameshark code (NTSC version):

X-Buster With Weapon Always Charged
30141963 0002

edit:This one works too:
Fast Weapon Charging [ASM]
8003827C 005A

Codes came from gamehacking.org, by the way.

[Sumez]

Man I want to record a full playthrough of a 1CC game in Rainbow Islands, but that happens like maybe 1 out of 10 games I play, especially when I'm out of practice, and each game is an hour long. Got one today where I died on round 38 out of 40 - don't know if I'm gonna upload it though, or go for the full game.

[FinalBaton]

edited

[PowerofElsydeon]

...Hey guys it's been a long time
I'm still on my gaming puberty...still questioning what's an awsome game, and what's not but it's almost over
I have one last set of questions for you guys that migth get me into adulthood if you can handle them
And when I do that I swear I'm making a whole documentary covering my journey and what not.

Before I do that I like to explain my philosofy so far
For me a great Game is like a combination of the fun factor that only Wicked paced Games posess + the hardcore factor +the artistic spirit that includes the music,character design and such ,altough that third part is low priority for me!

(Before we get there...Deeply,Deeply,Deeply)
I'd like to say I've been very disapointed some of the games you praised under this post

Like Operation C is way too easy once you memorize it

I don't know about Battletoads for Gameboy I've had fun 1ccing it...but it appears to be no more than a memorizer tbh(I will discuss that later)

By watching the guy from gameboy world said that Double Dragon was a very good Game except for it's hellish difficulty level
So I tough It was like a remix of the Arcade original except it had no arcade on it!
I mean 2 stupid enemies at a time! WTF is this?
Feed me more
Not cuz' I'm having a lot of adrenaline but because id'love to have it but this Game just lacks it



Castlevania Belmonts Revenge only get's hardcore on it's last stages and that's due to narrow pattern memorization of the final bosses and not pure chalange


Bionic Commando for Gameboy consists of about 20% of unskipable dialog
And it would be pretty cool if the Game was about going from left to rigth and top to bottom...but somehow ur forced to get into a communication room and have one of thoose shitty unskipable cutcenes or else you can't get figth the end level boss and finish the level,ur forced to backtrap that crappy
Why the hell do I have to deal with that stuff instead of playin it like a real arcade Game?

After all I've been trough I'd rather be playin' Space Invaders or Qix cuz they fit my ideals of what's an awesome Game
Sorry if I'm offending anyone but that's my oppinion

Btw Batman Return of the joker for Gb
It looks like a pretty cool ninja Game so maybe it's better than the other action kusoges
But if the health bar get's to stink and take of the Arcade feel like if we're talking euroshump I don't care
And if it's a memorizer with static enemies and static attack patterns I will also tun my back on it
And how hard is it compared to Contra III SNES?

Just wait for part 2 later tonigh and we will get to the real deal
See you guys then