Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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NYN
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Re: the heel who would be king

Post by NYN »

So the King of Cards campaign gets a release.
April 9th.
Than' ye humbly, m'lurd.
Let's see how or if it trickels down to outmoded plats like Vita and Wii U. As it was advertised. Years ago.
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Re: the heel who would be king

Post by BrianC »

Ronyn wrote:So the King of Cards campaign gets a release.
April 9th.
Than' ye humbly, m'lurd.
Let's see how or if it trickels down to outmoded plats like Vita and Wii U. As it was advertised. Years ago.
That date was announced a long time ago. It was delayed since then with no new date announced.
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Re: hand full o' deck

Post by NYN »

Ah. Thanks for the bad news.
I don't mean to be ingrateful or sounding upset, since it is a free expansion. But it is a tad sad, for the many times delayed, in honest, will it be eagerly played?
Similar to the IGA project. Nah, don't care no more.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by CIT »

Perikles wrote:Undercover Cops will still take weeks or even months if it happens, but I'll try!
Congrats on finally getting the UC clear! That's a massive achievement for sure.
Perikles wrote:On a different subject matter regarding 16-bit brawlers: am I the only one to think that Bare Knuckle II/Streets of Rage 2 is somewhat overrated? I've cleared the game twice and thought it is definitely a good game, but not stellar. I'll concede right away that the debonair-disreputable atmosphere is excellent, the driving soundtrack underlines the callous, coarse visual presentation masterfully. I don't particularly care for the amount of nuisance enemies in the game, though. It's obviously not a difficult title, yet you still have to abuse your special in a lot of situations because the AI loves to counter most of your other moves later in the game. Playing on higher difficulty settings piercingly exacerbates this issue. As is, I'd call the game competent, firmly above average and all that, nowise near essential, however. I'd love to hear your reasonings why that is completely wrong all the same!
Gonna chime in here, since I recently cleared the game as well. I think Bare Knuckle II is very much essential, simply because it's the perfect entry point for the genre. In terms of audiovisual style, panache, and visceral feel it's pretty much the top of the line for 16-Bit console brawlers. Punches feel satisfyingly bone crushing, with enemies letting out cries of anguish (compare that to the muffled, farty thuds in most SFC belt-scrollers). It simply looks and sounds gorgeous and perfectly executes the genre's staple street gangs theme with some tongue in cheek diversions here and there (amusement park pirate ship, etc.). The character roster allows for diverse play styles, all members of the cast make sense, and you get a very large move set compared with most genre contemporaries (front and back throws, different specials). Most of the small fry can be dealt with with some hit-stun exploitation, and the bosses all have a clear pattern of countering that can be learned. I'd say the game is to belt-scrollers what Last Resort or Espgaluda are to shmups — approachable, easy to learn, and will provide you with some solid basic skills to approach more challenging titles.

Interestingly, I'd rate Undercover Cops exactly the same as Bare Knuckle II, with the main fault similarly being the prevalence of single move exploits (in this case the dash attack), especially near the endgame, where careful hit-and-run tactics need to be employed over and over again. Presentation and sound are above and beyond of course. But while BKII is easy as allows you to ad lib, UC requires you to really buckle down and memorize sections (as you did). I got to the final stage, but ultimately the audiovisuals could not mask the tedium enough to make me take it past the finish line. My love for Irem is not unconditional. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

CIT wrote: approachable, easy to learn, and will provide you with some solid basic skills to approach more challenging titles.
From someone that's, lets say, not that great at the genre, the importance of this cannot be understated.
Playing SoR2, I understand the cause and effect of its mechanics. I can tell when to attack and when to back away, enemies have tells, learnable patterns, and even when I mess it up, I understand what I did wrong and what not to do next time.

In comparison, I've spent an ungodly amount of hours on Final Fight over the years, and I don't feel that I understand the game now any better than I did when I first played it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Perikles »

CIT wrote:Congrats on finally getting the UC clear! That's a massive achievement for sure.
Why, thank you! Great to read your customarily excellent impressions again as well - and congratulations on your rail shooter clears, that is one sub-genre which still eludes me for the most parts.


Regarding Bare Knuckle II:

I'll comprehensively concede that the overall - i.e. absolute - difficulty level of Bare Knuckle II's default settings lends itself for gaining one's spurs in the genre. Especially so since it is remarkably easy to feel scorned by conniving design choices when you start out with brawlers - most people are probably much more familiar with platformers where you normally have a lot of leeway for error and still are able to finish the game in a manner that at the very least creates the illusion of you having handled most obstacles competently. A lot of brawlers ruthlessly corral the player with hordes of enemy and expect you to play well for a vast majority of the time, particularly in the case of arcade brawlers. It takes individuals with intrepid sangfroid to truly become excellent at those games, I find - and granting facilities for the console audience is doubtlessly suitable.

Likewise, the presentation is indeed superb, as I've acknowledged before. I don't agree that "most" SFC brawlers (perhaps "most" in a sheer quantitative sense, but certainly not among the better ones) lack in algophilic impact, as it were (which range from expressive opalescent cartoon mayhem in Sonic Blast Man II to the veridical emergency room preparation course that is SFC Combatribes), there is no denying Bare Knuckle II's virtuous depiction, combining a rare dichotomy of grandeur and seediness. Furthermore, the game engine and even a lot of the executions are firmly above average, it's a good game for sure.

It does fall short for me - doubly so when people sing paeans of it being not only essential for the system (which is true simply because there are only a handful of worthy brawlers for the MD, period :mrgreen:), but also being one of the, if not the best brawler(s) of all time - when considering the finer points of the enemy AI, particularly during the trickier boss fights. If you look at some of the other excellent beginner-friendly brawlers of the 16-bit generation - TMNT for both the SFC and the MD as well as Final Fight Tough/3 immediately come to mind -, you'll find that they are a lot less rigid in how you have to handle any given situation. True, the sheer amount of lives and the potency of your special moves allows you to apply simple solutions in Bare Knuckle II, too; you're going to get smacked quite a bit at the end of the game if you don't comply to the patterns, however. The other games above on the other hand moreso reward your grasp on fundamentals - taking the Turtles games as an example, the dash slide is extremely strong, but just sticking to regular attacks (provided you time them somewhat well and adhere to basic spacing) or a lot of jump kicks or some of the fancier moves will work just as well. You can get through these games without much trouble with almost every method for as long as you play at least somewhat solid.

On the flip side, dominating battles with specific moves is neither as demanding nor as tense as it is in something like Knights of the Round or Undercover Cops (which would stand in stark contrast to the entire construction of being accessible, anyway). Just using regular punching in Undercover Cops requires perfect timing, the right enemies and a plan, yes. However, profusely exerting dash kicks still must be set up since some enemies are hard to hit (Foxes, Moguralians; and if you whiff, it will probably hurt a lot), most of them must be properly herded beforehand, once one of them dies and a new enemy spawns from the other side of the screen you have to adapt etc. pp. As such, it is seldom tedious, almost always earned - and when the inevitable minor error occurs which is deftly exploited by a brusque baton-wielder who will bash you across the screen with gusto, you'll have to extemporize in any case.

As such, I perceive some of the enemies in Bare Knuckle II to be peculiar - neither as universally approachable as in other titles with a similar goal nor as technically interesting as in more demanding brawlers. Bit of an odd case, really.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

Although I capture this pic two months ago, I got an all S Rank on Contra: Shattered Soldier! Took me few months to do it.

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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ghegs »

Good job, copy-paster.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

Cool, but why the NES over FC (though it's a nice clear either way)?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

BrianC wrote:Cool, but why the NES over FC (though it's a nice clear either way)?
Just because my other Contra video was on the famicom version. The famicom version is without question the better of the two, though.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

How so? Are there any differences outside of the snow and having to skip stuff between stages?
I have the Famicom version, but very rarely play it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Sumez wrote:How so? Are there any differences outside of the snow and having to skip stuff between stages?
I have the Famicom version, but very rarely play it.
The graphics are better in a lot of places ( the wind in stage 1, the water in stage 3, the snow in stage 5, the pulsating walls in stage 8 ) and the rank system starts you out on the equivalent of the NES version's second loop. I don't care for the cutscenes but you can skip them so it's fine.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

Getting there on Rondo. Made ST7 last night, I've still not figured out a convincing way to beat the ST5 boss other than make it there with enough hearts to spam the crush attack, and it took me some 4/l lives to work out the boss rush.

Beginning of ST7 completely screws me, if I DO make it over the bridge it's with next to no energy.

Also, it's taken me all this time to work out that as I've gotten older, I'm attempting to play side-scrollers in general WAY to cautiously. There are parts in this that aren't half as difficult when you just get straight in there, as apposed to my usual approach of creeping forward and waiting for stuff to happen before I react. It's taken something as accessible as this to show me where I've been going wrong.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Man, I've played through Rondo more times than any other CV game probably, but I think it's also been more than 10 years since I played it last.... I really should return to it soon. I feel like going back every time I heard people talk about it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Marc wrote:Getting there on Rondo. Made ST7 last night, I've still not figured out a convincing way to beat the ST5 boss other than make it there with enough hearts to spam the crush attack, and it took me some 4/l lives to work out the boss rush.

Beginning of ST7 completely screws me, if I DO make it over the bridge it's with next to no energy.
Spoiler
Axe is probably the best subweapon against Death. Cross is good against his first form but he counters it in his second form. His scythe slashes seem to happen on a timer. If he hasn't done one in a while just back off for a bit. For the boss rush but I like to switch to the hidden bible because it's really good against the mummy. The bats on the crumbling bridge go down to two whips or one axe. Jumping left and then whipping right in midair is a good way to multitask. I'm bad at that part too, though. There's a ton of food available after the bridge so it's fine to take a few hits.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

Yeah, axe is generally overpowered throughout Rondo.

For ST5 I generally go with the cross and use that for scythe cover while jumping and whipping to whittle down his health quickly, although tbh he's not too bad with whip alone, just keep moving and rely on jumping a lot to avoid the scythes. The second form is really easy once you get the spacing since it's just a matter of baiting the swipe and then counterattacking. When he does the spin move you want to be able to move out of the way quickly and get the proper spacing so that you can punish him when he lands then move out of the way of his swipe and hit him again. The scythes he tosses out here are more or less ignorable because you can pretty much move backwards to avoid their trajectory or just jump and whip them out of the way just out of swipe range. Just make sure you keep putting the pressure on and hitting him backwards so that you don't get cornered.

For the boss rush, I agree that the bible is the best option, pretty much essential for the mummy and also useful against Medusa and Shaft. The key against Shaft is to be as aggressive as you can and keep making him hop to the other side without getting an attack off. You won't be able to do that every time but you want to minimize the opportunities he has to attack you. Backflip is very useful against the striped 'stun orbs.'

For the bats, you can jump over them for the most part if you time it right, but the moonwalk is also helpful when you need to retaliate, probably the only part in the game where it has any real use.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Really the bible is good for the entire boss rush. It can hit the bat while it's up high and depletes its health quickly enough to be worth the heart cost. Against Frankenstein's monster it can block the rocks he drops from the ceiling. Its only problem is that it uses a lot of hearts and there aren't many available in stage 6.

Moonwalking is useful against respawning pests in general because it makes them spawn behind you. You still have to deal with them, but they won't intercept you just as you jump over a bottomless pit. I use it on the path to the bone golem in stage 2 and in the first half of stage 5'.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

I played a bit yesterday morning, I'm fine on Death's second dorm, but still need a couple of crush attacks (Cross) to help get me there. Surprisingly, I've gotten the boss rush down pretty much pat with just the whip.

That was yesterday morning. I get home, fire up ready to blitz on through to the final level....

I died at the first (lower) boss
I got knocked off ST2' bridge I don't know how many times
I died to the black knight
I died to the skeleton boss thing
I died on ST3' face boss (which I normally smash in literal seconds with the axe)

By this point I've got steam coming from my ears, I'm red in the face, and I'm closer to smashing up a pad than I've been since I was 18 and dumb (now 42).
I turned off in disgust and gave up. Will reconvene and try again later :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

Rondo is bit tricky at first, but really it's all about memorizing attacks (not as strict rote memorization like most Contra: Hard Corps bosses) and choose right subweapon.

Did you know that tapping left/right while whipping extends your whip range? It's useful against Death second form. His first form still beatable without any subweapon as long as you pay attention to his scythe and use backflip precisely, touching his first form body will not damage you unlike XX. I'd say Rondo is easier than X68K game and Bloodlines, also it gives you extends more often and unlimited continues.

If you manage to reach Dracula, be prepared to face the... (very spoiler)
Spoiler
Aesthetically/cinematic impressive fight but also worst Drac in the 16-bit trilogy. His pattern are blatant copy of first game except it's ten times easier, second form is a joke too.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Marc »

Yay, Rondo 1CC! Bottom route, one life lost on boss rush, one on ST7, two on Drac. Ran through with Maria after that just to unwind, her ending is funny in the way only poorly-translated Japanese games can be (bad is still bat :lol: ). Still missing two prisoners, so want to find them (presume one behind the locked door on ST7 which I hadn't a clue how to open, not a clue on the other), and want a clear of the top route, then will turn my attention to XX properly. I would have started Bloodlines, but I think I'm gonna wait for the MD mini.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by blackoak »

I heard recently that Yacht Games (shovel knight devs) are publishing/assisting the development of Cyber Shadow. I admit I have some worries about the game though, as a lot of screenshots in the last 1/2 year have made it look more metroidvania-ish, when I just want tight, no-nonsense, late-NES style Ninja Gaiden/Sunsoft action (haha, that took too way too many words to describe ).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Despatche »

I'm guessing Cyber Shadow has something to do with the Shovel Knight delay.

That's also finally gotten an announcement: August 30th. Getting a new physical release too.

I like search action (hell yeah) games that don't have leveling, just abilities or equipment.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

Got some Rondo replays.

Upper path as Richter
Lower path as Maria

After doing a bunch of playthroughs of different paths, I think my favorite route is 2', 3', 4, 5'.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

blackoak wrote:I heard recently that Yacht Games (shovel knight devs) are publishing/assisting the development of Cyber Shadow. I admit I have some worries about the game though, as a lot of screenshots in the last 1/2 year have made it look more metroidvania-ish, when I just want tight, no-nonsense, late-NES style Ninja Gaiden/Sunsoft action (haha, that took too way too many words to describe ).
it's a bit of a shame that so many new retro action platformers end up being metroidvanias. I love metroidvanias but I feel like we got plenty of those already in recent years, and I'd like for us instead to get more pure action-heavy, adrenaline-fueled basic sidescrollers

R2TRKMF's, as BIL calls them haha
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Unfortunately making a good R2TRKMF is really hard. I was working on one but decided to scrap it in favor of a more exploration based "metroidvania", simply because well, it's easier to make something appealing.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

Really makes you appreciate these old sidescrollers even more, doesn't it? :)
I can definitely see how it's harder to make
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

I get the impression that metroidvanias sell better. Indie developers these days already have to deal with an oversaturated market, it makes sense that so many of them would play it conservative.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

Sumez wrote:Unfortunately making a good R2TRKMF is really hard. I was working on one but decided to scrap it in favor of a more exploration based "metroidvania", simply because well, it's easier to make something appealing.
Fingers crossed for Blazing Chrome. It looks like it is going to be pretty good.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Isn't it the Oniken devs though? :\
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