Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

mamboFoxtrot wrote:Out of curiosity, how many people here have played The Red Star (PS2)? Personally I like it quite a lot, with its Treasure-esque overload of mini-bosses and novel combination of bullet hell boss attacks and kinda DMC-lite combat controls and combos against mooks (or, at least, I can't think of any other game quite like it).
Haven't you played the PC (Windows) Ys games? Mixing bullet patterns with "DMC" kind of combat can be found in 3D ones.
The Red Star makes for enjoyable co-op (complete Xbox version had leaked, by the way).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by mamboFoxtrot »

I've been meaning to get into the Ys games, but it's hard to choose which one to start with. I've had Oath to Felgana in the wishlist for some time now, but still haven't acted on any of the sales.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Ys Chronicles 1&2 first, then The Oath in Felghana is chronological order, story-wise. All good games, if different gameplay in 1&2 from the later ones.
Oh, and I couldn't recommend Crimson Tears (PS2) enough. Sort of "Diablo arcade" in (compromised) 3D. Much reminiscent of the dungeon crawl mode in the PSX port of Ehrgeiz: God Bless The Ring (also by DreamFactory).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

The Oath in Felghana is fucking incredible. Image Godly excellent game. Ys I & II Complete / Chronicles are great too, and certainly worth playing first, but don't miss Felghana.

For the record, stuff like Felghana, Neo Contra and Silent Bomber are A-OK here too (being, much like Raystorm and Under Defeat, classic topdown scrolling action with an unfixed camera).

Yes, taken to its logical extreme, this reasoning could technically cover modern 3D action games like Devil May Cry, and even grunt's-eye-view shooters like DOOM, but this is where that good sense I stipulated earlier comes into effect. :wink:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

BIL wrote:For the record, stuff like Felghana, Neo Contra and Silent Bomber are A-OK here too (being, much like Raystorm and Under Defeat, classic topdown scrolling action with an unfixed camera).

Yes, taken to its logical extreme, this reasoning could technically cover modern 3D action games like Devil May Cry, and even grunt's-eye-view shooters like DOOM, but this is where that good sense I stipulated earlier comes into effect. :wink:
I always think of games like Felghana (and the other 3D Ys games) like a 3D game with standard 2D gameplay at heart. It just so happens that the world is made of polygons rather than sprites.
Another example, a game that Leviathan and Sumez just recently discussed, Matterfall, although being undeniably a fully fledged 3D game, is one I still consider a 2D game as far as gameplay is concerned.

Now, I'm not familiar with Neo Contra or Silent Bomber (I've just checked some screenshots, but I don't know how they play), but I put Devil May Cry squarely in the 3rd Person Action-Game category, along with, say, Ninja Gaiden (XBox), Bayonetta, etc.
Both Neo Contra and Silent Bomber look pretty sweet, though.

By the way BIL, and given that you enjoy some 3D stuff like Silent Bomber, have you ever tried/heard of The Divide: Enemies Within (PSX)? I've read it was designed to be basically Super Metroid in 3D, and it looks pretty decent, looking at the screenshots.
I've been meaning to play it for a while now, but I always end up forgetting to do so, and I thought it might be a game that you (and others here) might enjoy, and from what I gather, it isn't a very well known game.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vludi »

__SKYe wrote:I have little playtime with Haggar, especially on FF1, but the one thing that struck me the most, was him randomly dropping enemies after grabbing them.

Is his Body Slam (Jump+Down+Attack) on FF1 a knockdown (like in FF2) or is it a standard stun attack?
Mind you, I'm not saying the attack is bad, it's just that I'm used to performing the jump-stun attack to initiate a grab (with the other characters), and I miss it with Haggar. But then again, I suck playing as him. :lol:

Since I'm used to the faster characters, I tend to use their faster standard combos and jump+stun to grab and throw, but I find this harder to do with Haggar, and once again, no jump+stun. I guess I need some time to adapt to playing differently with him (more piledriver/jump kicks, less standard combo).
Another habit I need to lose when using Haggar, is to not delay using the piledriver (after jumping) otherwise he won't use it (if you press the attack button after he starts descending). This comes from the habit of delaying the jump+stun, so that you hit them as you're falling near them, so that in turn you can grab them while they're in hitstun. I tend to screw this up quite a bit when doing the piledriver.

It is a shame that the piledriver does so little damage against bosses (in FF2, at least). It feels really awesome to use it against them. :wink:
Randomly dropping enemies is just an issue with bosses like Sodom, as long as you are fast enough with your grab attacks you will not have problems with most enemies as the reaction window is fair enough.

As for Haggar's body slam It's not a stun attack, it's better than that, a crowd control attack that allows you to knockdown a bunch of enemies easily, it's especially useful to use the backward splash when you are surrounded by enemies as you push them forward clearing your back in a blink. A few examples: https://youtu.be/ulCvAZsNDk4?t=1917 https://youtu.be/ulCvAZsNDk4?t=2006 https://youtu.be/ulCvAZsNDk4?t=2345

As for grabbing enemies, you should focus on either: grab them when they are waking up or approaching from up/down, with most enemies frontal approach is easy too, just learn their AI better. Also suplex is faster and more useful than piledriver most of the time, chaining many suplexes (finishing a combo holding down/up) is especially deadly if done right because it gives you tons of iframes. Mind you I'm talking about the first game, I don't know much about FF2.
Last edited by Vludi on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

Regarding modern Ys games : I loved Memories of Celceta(PS Vita, via a PS TV) so damn much that it has climbed it's way towards the top of my "favourite action-rpg" list, just flat out one of the best games I have played in that genre in recent years. This game is very special to me, I cherish my experience with it very much.
There are a bunch of people on here who didn't like it though, so maybe I'm just a weirdo. YMMV.

I liked what I've played of Ys VI(PS2) quite a lot, until I reached a dark cave that's very maze-like with it's intersections that all look the same to boot, and it's also huge, so I stopped playing at that point. I plan on getting back to it and clearing that cave though, as I really like the game a lot.

I'm currently playing Oath in Felghana(Steam, although I have the PSP copy as well) and I'm not far in, but I like it. I don't think I like the combat in it as much as in Ys VI though(which is maybe a controversial thing to say).

I played Ys Seven(PSP) a bit but my PSP died, and thus I couldn't play it anymore :( (althought now it's coming to Steam, maybe I'll buy it there). The bit I played was allright, but it just pales in comparison to Memories of Celceta. The maps you traverse between towns and dungeons seem barren compared to MoC, and there are less objectives in those parts, too. I still wanna go back to playing it though.

I didn't pick up Ys I and II Collection :oops: I fear that I won't like the bumping combat (I'm weird like that, I have a mental block with that combat style, the concept in itself just seems like no fun at all. Maybe I'll get over that mental block someday). So can't comment on that one.
Also my PS4 copy of Ys Origins I bought from Play-Asia hasn't shipped yet so I can't comment on that one either.
I friggin' can't wait for Ys VIII, as it has gameplay very close to that of MoC. Man, I want to play it so bad :D
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

__SKYe wrote:I always think of games like Felghana (and the other 3D Ys games) like a 3D game with standard 2D gameplay at heart. It just so happens that the world is made of polygons rather than sprites.
Another example, a game that Leviathan and Sumez just recently discussed, Matterfall, although being undeniably a fully fledged 3D game, is one I still consider a 2D game as far as gameplay is concerned.

Now, I'm not familiar with Neo Contra or Silent Bomber (I've just checked some screenshots, but I don't know how they play), but I put Devil May Cry squarely in the 3rd Person Action-Game category, along with, say, Ninja Gaiden (XBox), Bayonetta, etc.
Both Neo Contra and Silent Bomber look pretty sweet, though.
Neo Contra plays exactly like Shock Troopers, were it to be Raystorm-ised. 3D models with a roving camera, but the feel is 100% classic topdown shooting and dodging, with some almost danmaku boss attacks. Attacking stuff not on your own plane is done via lockon laser: hold the button to radar-sweep, release to fire. It's a very good game, though sadly too easy to match classics like Shock Troopers and SFC Kiki Kaikai. Still most definitely worth playing - ultra-smooth and uproariously violent. A handful of the more intense setpieces and bosses, like Mission 5's superb Mecha-Gyaba, achieve real excellence. For a more interesting time, I suggest sticking to the three default weapon sets - apparently the unlockable ones break an already relatively mild game (I never bothered with 'em).

Silent Bomber gets my strongest recommendation. Cyborg Ninja Bomberman basically. Just like Felghana and Neo, it's unmistakably classic 2D action from a 3D viewpoint - one that generally mimics topdown perspective, with occasional shifts to side or chase view. No matter its angle, the handling is totally intuitive and sharply finessed. You have two modes of attack - remotely detonated mines for ground enemies (very handy against aggressive pursuers), and a sweeping lockon much like Neo's that'll tag stuff both land and air with sticky bombs; no matter how agile the aircraft or stompy the mech, they're getting blown to hell. A handful of special weapons let you get creative - incendiaries torch bioweapon fiends, EMPs fry machine brains, and gravity mines drag hordes into their vortex, ready for collective blasting. Explosions are visually astonishing in their fury, registering with a Raidenesque piercing yet floor-shaking intensity. Missions occasionally entail target demolition or ally defence, but for the most part it's an unfettered run-and-bomb affair.

A deftly-executed love letter to classically destructive action gaming. Pls everyone play. edit: Unfortunately the PAL and possibly US version suffers from a bug, which sees the game randomly freeze after a late, tough boss. It's possible you won't encounter it, but may be worth playing the JP version to be safe - language shouldn't be an issue, and if it is, a glance at a FAQ for the current mission briefing will sort you right out.
By the way BIL, and given that you enjoy some 3D stuff like Silent Bomber, have you ever tried/heard of The Divide: Enemies Within (PSX)? I've read it was designed to be basically Super Metroid in 3D, and it looks pretty decent, looking at the screenshots.
I've been meaning to play it for a while now, but I always end up forgetting to do so, and I thought it might be a game that you (and others here) might enjoy, and from what I gather, it isn't a very well known game.
Don't think I've heard of The Divide, thanks for the mention! I'm a bit rusty on my polygonal PS1 action games, the aforementioned Silent Bomber and the Panzer Dragoon-esque Omega Boost aside.
FinalBaton wrote:I didn't pick up Ys I and II Collection :oops: I fear that I won't like the bumping combat (I'm weird like that, I have a mental block with that combat style, the concept in itself just seems like no fun at all. Maybe I'll get over that mental block someday). So can't comment on that one.
Bump-jutsu is actually pretty endearing, speaking as someone whose very first experience with it was the collection. Basically you just need to bump stuff off-center, for a guaranteed clean hit; the detection is sensibly forgiving and very consistent. Once you get confident you'll instinctively start outflanking enemies and bulldozing them into walls, jackhammering until they explode with unexpectedly detailed gore flying everywhere. It's both surprisingly tactical and surprisingly violent. :lol: I remember being impressed by the first game's brief escort mission, leading a trailing captive out of a cramped dungeon with monsters patrolling. Doesn't sound fun, but proactively slaying would-be pincers and ambushers was like being Pac-Man with a badass sword. Unexpectedly satisfying.

The second game's ramming is deliberately even more forgiving, IIRC, and in any case it involves a lot of traditional shooting via its magic system. Worth taking a chance on these games, I'd say.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

They seem like very nice games indeed. I'll have to give them both a try.
FinalBaton wrote:I didn't pick up Ys I and II Collection :oops: I fear that I won't like the bumping combat (I'm weird like that, I have a mental block with that combat style, the concept in itself just seems like no fun at all. Maybe I'll get over that mental block someday). So can't comment on that one.
Believe it or not, I thought exactly like you.
In fact, the first time I played an Ys game was the Ys 1+2 for the DS, and as soon as I got to the overworld (when you get to fight the first enemies), I thought I missed something, because the character didn't seem to have a sword to attack.
I never got very far back then (I had still to open up to the ramming mechanic). :lol:
BIL wrote:Bump-jutsu is actually pretty endearing, speaking as someone whose very first experience with it was the collection. Basically you just need to bump stuff off-center, for a guaranteed clean hit; the detection is sensibly forgiving and very consistent. Once you get confident you'll instinctively start outflanking enemies and bulldozing them into walls, jackhammering until they explode with unexpectedly detailed gore flying everywhere. It's both surprisingly tactical and surprisingly violent. :lol:
It's worth noting that if you ram enemies diagonally, you're guaranteed to damage them without taking damage yourself (the exception being when enemies flash in Ys 2, meaning they're about to attack).
Though this may not seem as much, you can do it even if you're facing the enemy head on (granted you move diagonally against them), and this becomes especially apparent on the first dungeon (the mine) on Ys 2, where there are roads that are very narrow, and enemies that do a lot of damage (until you level enough, of course).
BIL wrote: I remember being impressed by the first game's brief escort mission, leading a trailing captive out of a cramped dungeon with monsters patrolling. Doesn't sound fun, but proactively slaying would-be pincers and ambushers was like being Pac-Man with a badass sword. Unexpectedly satisfying.
Yep, and Ys 2 has a similar but harder escort mission, where you need to escort a kid from a prison in the lava caves (or whatever it's called).
These missions are pretty refreshing, since the NPCs move slow and have little HP (they die very easily), but you can't exactly run ahead and destroy the monsters in the room, since they'll respawn if you stray too much. So you need to strike a balance where, you want to be slightly ahead, so that you can intercept any approaching enemies (even getting in front of an enemy heading for the NPC, taking damage yourself), but still move slow enough so that the NPC won't get left behind (or you'll need to go back for them).

It reminds me of the similar escort mission in MegaMan Zero 1.
Vludi wrote:Randomly dropping enemies is just an issue with bosses like Sodom, as long as you are fast enough with your grab attacks you will not have problems with most enemies as the reaction window is fair enough.
Ha, OK, I thought the problem was a bit more rampant than that. Perhaps it was due to me, taking too long to actually jump and execute the piledriver?
Vludi wrote:As for Haggar's body slam It's not a stun attack, it's better than that, a crowd control attack that allows you to knockdown a bunch of enemies easily, it's especially useful to use the backward splash when you are surrounded by enemies as you push them forward clearing your back in a blink. A few examples: https://youtu.be/ulCvAZsNDk4?t=1917 https://youtu.be/ulCvAZsNDk4?t=2006 https://youtu.be/ulCvAZsNDk4?t=2345
That's something I need to start doing as well.
Though I must admit, I wish they'd kept the stun attack, and replaced the standard jump kick with the body slam.
Vludi wrote:As for grabbing enemies, you should focus on either: grab them when they are waking up or approaching from up/down, with most enemies frontal approach is easy too, just learn their AI better. Also suplex is faster and more useful than piledriver most of the time, chaining many suplexes (finishing a combo holding down/up) is especially deadly if done right because it gives you tons of iframes. Mind you I'm talking about the first game, I don't know much about FF2.
I think Haggar plays pretty similar in both games, so that should apply to FF2 as well.
The wake-up grab and the vertical approach is something I already do with others, so it won't be too different then.
I do think I put too much faith in the piledriver, and got the wrong idea about playing as him. Thanks for the tips.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

mamboFoxtrot wrote:I've been meaning to get into the Ys games, but it's hard to choose which one to start with. I've had Oath to Felgana in the wishlist for some time now, but still haven't acted on any of the sales.
I've played the steam versions of 1, 2, 6, Felghana, and Origin, the Genesis version of 3, and the PC Engine version of 4. My stance is that while all are worthwhile to some extent, Felghana and Origin are by far the best. Boss fights in both are superb and the biggest draw, but everything about them is good except for maybe that Origin gets too talky at times. Definitely my recommendations as a starting point. Don't pick Hugo if you start with Origin: he doesn't represent the series's gameplay as well and I think he's less fun and too safe compared with the others.

6 is a clunkier prototype version of Felghana and Origin but it's still alright. It's a bit more of an RPG and a bit less of an action game with a more open world and generally more options in terms of what you can do with equipment and items. The seemingly-invincible mole enemies can only be harmed by a falling aerial attack.

1 is unusual in that its first half is a small-scale open world RPG where you build levels, find treasure, etc. and the second half is one giant dungeon where you're already max level and just need to get through.

2 is bigger, more linear, and changes things up in a surprising number of ways. There's a spellcasting system and boss fights are centered around the fireball spell rather than bump combat. You get a shapeshift spell to turn into a monster, and every single redshirt enemy can be spoken to and has a unique line. Lots of moral ambiguity in getting to know your EXP fodder. I remember it as a lot easier than 1.

3 is Zelda 2-style game that does that euroshmup thing where you have no mercy invincibility or hitstun. It's kinda bad but I liked it anyway.

I played 4 a long time ago and don't remember it very well, except that there were more mazes than I liked and the NPC allies were extremely strong. There's a nice fan translation.

For all of the entries with difficulty selection you want hard or nightmare. On normal the boss fights win themselves. Also all of these games like to make two level ups the difference between getting hit for 60% and 2% of your health, so keep that in mind if you feel insanely underleveled.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Revisited Sailor Moon R SFC for the first time in ages and finally cleared Stage 3, though I had to use a continue at Rubeus. The piledriver is surprisingly useful in keeping the whirling enemies at bay. (EDIT: And I am all but certain that Ami and Rei have higher grab priority than Minako; the Saphir throw loop is possible with the former but not the latter.)

Also, HG101 claims that The King of Dragons SFC does not give extends, which is obviously a load of bunk because I've obtained them at least twice. I'm stuck on Stage 6, although I once made it to Stage 9 with one continue. Boss difficulty seems to be all over the place.

How reliable should the shield mechanic be?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

I love talking about Ys, but don't feel like going into this discussion as I've already poured out my heart in both the Ys thread and the Falcom thread, and going on would be awfully redundant of me :P
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:Oh, and I couldn't recommend Crimson Tears (PS2) enough.
Seconding this recommendation. It's got a Phantasy Star Online kind of atmosphere, but with much more fluid combat mechanics.
WelshMegalodon wrote:How reliable should the [King of Dragons] shield mechanic be?
It's not essential (seeing as how two characters in the game can't use it) but for the three shield users it's quite helpful. I think the SFC version makes it easier with a shield button right? Not all attacks are blockable (pretty sure this applies to dragon breath attacks) though as far as I recall, so there's an element of learning what attacks can be safely blocked and what ones you'll want to simply dodge. Even on the arcade version I remember thinking the timing's quite reasonable and blocking can be done fairly reliably.

I haven't 1CC'd this yet though so I could be totally wrong on some of this.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Revisiting The Oath of Felghana these days, I must say its gameplay essentialy IS 3D, just without Capcom camera. Which makes for some speedy killing (or even faster fleeing when you would rather avoid combat) - that (pacing) is the greatest difference between 3D Ys or something like Onimusha or DMC. Now, Crimson Tears plays more "2.5D" alright.

Especially if you have someone to play local co-op with, make sure you give Alien Syndrome PS2 remake a try (Sega Classics Collection US). One of those dingy fun polygonal remakes like Space Raiders and Gauntlet Dark Legacy.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

The distinction between 2D that emulates a third dimension and full 3D is more stylistic than absolute, I think. Games like Felghana, Neo Contra and Silent Bomber deliberately evoke the simplicity and clarity of traditional fixed-perspective 2D; when it's done well, I feel little difference at the controls. Collision detection and control response is integral, of course - with that covered, there's the viewpoint. Mission 3 of SB starts out emulating Zaxxon...

Spoiler
Image


Then you go up a flight of stairs, the camera turns a few degrees, and it's totally beltscrolling like Kunio.

Spoiler
Image


At other times, as with Felghana and Neo, you get chase cam (reminiscent of the original Contra's "3D" stages), as well as good old three-quarters overhead (chessboard, muhfuckas!). All of these games could've doubtlessly been executed in 2D, with the obvious caveat that you'd probably need at least a few dedicated sprite sets and scene breaks (as the earlier Contras relied on).

(goes without saying that tight action from a fixed, easily-read perspective is neither inherent to sprites nor alien to polys. See the litany of sprite-based action games with poor cameras discussed over this thread's course, like Story of Thor. 3; )
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vludi »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote: It's not essential (seeing as how two characters in the game can't use it) but for the three shield users it's quite helpful. I think the SFC version makes it easier with a shield button right? Not all attacks are blockable (pretty sure this applies to dragon breath attacks) though as far as I recall, so there's an element of learning what attacks can be safely blocked and what ones you'll want to simply dodge. Even on the arcade version I remember thinking the timing's quite reasonable and blocking can be done fairly reliably.

I haven't 1CC'd this yet though so I could be totally wrong on some of this.
All attacks are blockable afaik, included the dragon breath. Blocking is pretty fun and it gives you a fair reaction window for most enemies (hardest one to block are definitely the double knights), the iframes are pretty nice.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

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BrianC wrote:Meikyū Jiin Dababa from Konami on FDS plays a bit like Startropics.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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My lord, I have come for you.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

Finally got the 1CC with Haggar.

Image

In fact, this run went better than the ones with the other characters.
I got to the last stage with 7 lives in stock, reached the boss with 7 as well (lost some, but gained the same amount) and lost 3 against him (got another extend during the fight), though the last life lost was completely unnecessary, as I decided to try to finish him with a piledriver, and was trying to grab him (a single punch would have killed him) but he killed me in the mean time.

On average, I think I lost between 1~2 lives during the stages themselves, and 1 during the boss fights (didn't lose any during the first stage at all, but with more lives lost as the game went on).
I'm pretty happy with the result either way, especially as some of the boss fights went much better than usual (chiefly Philippe, Rolento and Retu). On Philippe (Stage 4 boss) I usually lost some 3 lives (rarely 2), and on Rolento most often 2. On the last boss it used to range from 3 to 5.

Some remarks now that I've finally got enough playtime with all the characters:

Though I still miss the Jump+Stun, Haggar's Bodyslam is very useful indeed, as it is fantastic to put all the enemies on the same side of the screen. Another of its uses, is on screen edges, where one of the edges of the screen is a solid wall, and enemies only come from the other direction. In this situations, I like to put all the enemies against the wall, so that you can easily and quickly dispatch them, but there's no easy way to put them all there (I'd usually jump kick the group, and hopefully be fast enough to make to the other side, so that I could hit them in the wall's direction), but with Haggar you can simply jump backwards and use the Bodyslam, and the enemy group will be knocked down in front of you (which, since you're going backwards, is towards the wall).
With Maki you can do a wall kick to quickly get to the other side of the screen, but it's not quite as effective.

Another skill unique to Haggar, is the ability to move around while holding an enemy. This is pretty useful when you want to position yourself before you throw/suplex the enemy. Other characters cannot move while holding an enemy.

Also, the last-hit-throw doesn't work quite as well in Final Fight 2, as it does in FF1.
In FF1, you can hold the D-Pad down as soon as you start the combo, and regardless of the distance to the enemy you're hitting (as long as you're hitting one), and you'll automatically throw on the last hit. In FF2 this isn't always the case.
I don't know if it's a timing issue, or whatever, but I find myself missing these throws every so often.

I'm sure most of you already know this, but this last-hit-throw can be performed with any direction except the one facing the enemy (down, up and back). You can hold up or down as soon as you start the common combo, and you'll throw on the last hit, but when pressing backwards, you need to time it properly, or you'll either not throw (if you press too late), or you'll turn around and punch behind you (if you press too early).
I've gone a long time without knowing you could press down/up instead of backwards, and that's why I thought this 'skill' was harder than it really is. :oops:

Another difference from the original game, is that in FF1, after you grab an enemy, you will throw the enemy backwards if you press any direction except forwards (forwards throws to the front, no direction knees the enemy), but in FF2 the up and down directions do nothing (behave as if you don't press a direction, and your character knees the enemy).

Also Vludi, you were right, I've tried the arcade FF1, and Haggar has quite a generous timeframe before he drops a grabbed enemy.
I still think this happens more commonly on the SFC's port, but perhaps it is exacerbated by the lag?

One thing I believe it's worth noting, is that the enemies' behaviour, in general, is considerably simpler in FF2 than in the original.
In FF1 most enemies will actively run from you, and the yellow, mohawk guys can be pretty fast and dangerous, but in FF2 they mostly behave the same, moving a bit every second or so.
I am of the opinion that this makes the game easier comparatively to FF1 (comparing the SFC games, not the arcade game).

One of the most interesting, albeit annoying, is the El Gado replacements.
They get up fast, and will move much faster and longer than the other enemies, and they'll constantly try to move behind you (unlike most other enemies, they'll rarely (if ever) try to attack you head-on). Now, most of the time, they aren't much of a threat, but their usefulness (as an opponent) comes when there's a particularly tough enemy group on-screen (like a couple Andores, or groups of the lightning rod dudes/bear hug dudes), as they will make you have to constantly watch your back, since they'll automatically make a run nehind you. This prevents you from being able to pummel the entire enemy group when they're around.
They work similarly well during boss fights. A nice teamwork strategy if I may say so. :wink:

To finish this up, and for those who aren't too familiar with the series, there are several hidden items in the game, much like in FF1 (especially during the last stretch of the last stage). They are hidden behind foreground objects, and although I'm not sure if their contents are fixed, I usually find 2 lives when picking them up (sometimes I get another on a regular oil drum). You just have to press the attack button to pick them up, much like you do with the regular items. Do try to move up or down in small increments if you can't find them, as you might just be slightly above or below the item.
One 1-Up (or it should be a 1-Up) is at the start of stage 4 (London), on the left side of the screen from where you spawn (behind a train, I believe). Two more items are behind the 2 pillars at the start of stage 5 (Italy), and there 3 items in the final stage (one of them is a 1-Up), behind 3 bushes, right after the part where you have to move up, vertically (one item in each bush).
There could be more, but these are the only ones I can recall right now.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Immryr »

i just bought a copy of alcahest after giving it a little try on an emulator. fun game. i like the combat quite a bit, you need to be fairly methodical with it. i only played through the first two and a half levels, hopefully the last few levels are similarly easy to navigate without being able to read japanese.

thanks for the recommendation squire, i'd always just passed over this one after seeing square on the box figuring i'd be missing too much without the text.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:

Especially if you have someone to play local co-op with, make sure you give Alien Syndrome PS2 remake a try (Sega Classics Collection US). One of those dingy fun polygonal remakes like Space Raiders and Gauntlet Dark Legacy.
I'll second this suggestion, Alien Syndrome on the Sega Classics Collection is a lot of fun. The setting is very much like LV-426, it controls really well, and like a rated R Alien film is pretty bloody.

Outrun is also tits in that collection.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Immryr wrote:i only played through the first two and a half levels, hopefully the last few levels are similarly easy to navigate without being able to read japanese.
There is a complete fan translation on RHDN if you're interested.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Immryr »

yeah i did see that, but i figured since i would be buying the game in japanese it's probably best to try it out that way. maybe i will play through the translated version once so i know what's going on though.....
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

Just a quick visit to post of another Zelda-like game I just recently remembered about.

Crusader Of Centy (MD) -- Even more Zelda-like than Neugier, and along with Beyond Oasis, one of the only such games in the MD library.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Oh lord, Double Dragon II FC Hard's AI is being a dick and a half tonight. :shock: I seemingly lack the concentration to nail a good no-miss right now - just had two storming runs end in Mission 7's Deadly Jungle Gym aka THE LULZ FACTORY. A treachery brawler, of all things. I really like the concept, would love a dedicated game of this stuff. It's punishing to crush a sea of foes only to pratfall off a gear though. 3; I must proactively defend the controls, they're great (with one exception, detailed below). This is just some rather ruthless hopping over Missions 5-7.

Fired up the NES version because I was getting a goddamn inferiority complex, and nailed Supreme Master in one shot. Not meant to denote any accomplishment - it's exactly what happens when I play FC Normal. I'll probably grudgingly upload it tonight, so it's at least around for contrast pending an FC run. NES Supreme Master enemies are downright helpful! They obligingly present their unguarded face to your skull-caving knee; they embrace the skin-shredding friction burn as their corpse hits asphalt at fifty feet per second; they welcome a body-obliterating trip out an open helicopter door, or over a mountainside! What I'm saying is: NES ver AI ain't shit but a bunch of dicks! Auldeh but goodeh GIF duo:

The Virgin NES
Spoiler
Image


THE CHAD FC
Spoiler
Image


AND they have typically half the HP - this veeery gradually ticks up until the game's very last two Williams have as much HP as FC Hard's first. Mission 7's freakishly tough Bridge Ropers see no such heights of durability on NES. Regardless, aggression is the critical difference. If you're loitering in FC Hard (technically "Difficult") striking range, you're getting belted mercilessly - and traded nearly as mercilessly, without flawless zoning and timing (this beautifully evens out the knee - roundhouse and uppercut are dramatically safer to connect, doing AFAIK a third and half the damage respectively).

Naturally the other moves are a safer bet but I can't resist the knee bazooka. Ordinarily I'd prefer such demanding timing to be reserved for a combo, rather than a standard armament... but what a great weapon it is! Ultimate gratification. *BLAOW*

Also! DDII unfortunately suffers from a touch of Holy Diver's disease. For new friends, this is the unfortunate affliction where a change in the dpad's state will eat button inputs. It's the second phase of the pox that manifests here; coming to a halt and attacking while in the split-second "sliding stop" will foil you. You can learn to work around it by never letting off the pad until you've launched your attack or jump, but it can be a real pain when you absolutely need to halt, then act. The third Roper in Mission 2, for example... walking into range, belting him three times, then roundhousing him to his doom should be a snap, but becomes inordinately tricky. A non-issue the majority of the time, happily.

A minor blemish on a truly stellar example of that FC speciality, the "arcade port" IE super-deluxe reimagining/home sequel. Incidentally, I first noticed the issue in the underachieving, yet still likable DDIII... an engine holdover, I guess? Makes DDII seem just a hint less stratospherically superior, though superior it most certainly is.

By the by - this is why I'm so tough (aka BRUTALLY LASHING) on spurious claims of dropped inputs etc, and encourage others to do the same! I'd never seen any mention of HDD in either of these games, until I did what I always do and burrowed deep down into the spaces between frames, ferreting out the tiniest deficiencies. ¦3 If such data is thrown around carelessly, or WORSE, as a fig-leaf for rank poor play, I am seized by the uncontrollable urge to chastise scrubs. It's for the kids. Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

__SKYe wrote:Just a quick visit to post of another Zelda-like game I just recently remembered about.

Crusader Of Centy (MD) -- Even more Zelda-like than Neugier, and along with Beyond Oasis, one of the only such games in the MD library.
Does King Colussus also qualify? It's the only other one I can think of for the MD.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari: R2RKMF

Post by CIT »

So guys, I need your advice: What's the best version of Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari?

I know Million did the GBA port and added a bunch of cool extras and I'm totally down with their version of Double Dragon for GBA, so it seems like that's the best route? Or stick with the FC or the snazzier PCE version?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari: R2RKMF

Post by __SKYe »

BrianC wrote:Does King Colussus also qualify? It's the only other one I can think of for the MD.
I had never heard of that one, but judging from the screenshots I'd say it most certainly qualifies. Thanks for bringing it up.
CIT wrote:So guys, I need your advice: What's the best version of Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari?

I know Million did the GBA port and added a bunch of cool extras and I'm totally down with their version of Double Dragon for GBA, so it seems like that's the best route? Or stick with the FC or the snazzier PCE version?
I'm only familiar with the FC and GBA versions, so those are the only ones I can comment on.

THe GBA port retains the japanese character sprites, but sadly not their names, doesn't suffer from the slowdown and flicker present on the FC version, has a somewhat expanded gameplay, offering a few more moves and smoother combat, and it also has a save system instead of the FC's password system.

On the downside, it has a black bar for the HUD, which takes space on the already screen-size limited GBA, and there's no 2 player mode as well but you can have an AI partner during play.

The save/password system in both games only record the characters' statistics, not their location, so you have to start from the beginning when you load a save file.

Overall, I prefer the GBA port, but if you're more into playing with a friend, then the FC (or one of the other) port might be preferable.

-----

EDIT:

BIL, after quite a while of not playing DD2, played a run on Normal, and another on Difficult, just so I could compare the differences between the two.

On the Normal run, reached, and lost against the last boss, mainly because I forgot how to fight him after such a long time. :lol:

The Difficult run, on the other hand, ended on Mission 4. :oops:
It really is a bloody difference, both in enemy resilience and in their agressiveness.
One of the lives was lost by falling into a pit, and another in the chopper stage, but I had much more trouble in the other stages as well, even almost losing a life in the first one.
And I got the game over on a part that I always thought annoying (where you can't jump because of the low ceiling, meaning no spinkick/uppercut on landing), but on Difficult it is brutal. Even the common enemies here will absolutely destroy you, just as they did to me (on Normal, the one that usually gave me some trouble was the Abobo at the end).

Also, how do you perform the Knee attack? Is it a on-getting-up attack like the uppercut or something else?
I occasionally do it, but I'm not sure how. Also, I never had the need to perform it in order to beat the game, but on Difficult it is a different story.
BIL wrote:By the by - this is why I'm so tough (aka BRUTALLY LASHING) on spurious claims of dropped inputs etc, and encourage others to do the same! I'd never seen any mention of HDD in either of these games, until I did what I always do and burrowed deep down into the spaces between frames, ferreting out the tiniest deficiencies. ¦3 If such data is thrown around carelessly, or WORSE, as a fig-leaf for rank poor play, I am seized by the uncontrollable urge to chastise scrubs. It's for the kids. Image
I never encountered such a problem either, in this game, but I'm not that good at it either way. I do miss a fair amount of spinkicks/uppercuts, but always due to mis-timing the inputs, rather than being the game's fault.
And besides Holy Diver, if anyone wants to know what dropped inputs feel like, I'd advise them to play Final Fight 1 (SFC), and try to perform combos properly on areas with (sometimes severe) slowdown, such as the Bar area on Stage 2 (especially noticeable with Haggar, because he has a slower attack rate).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari: R2RKMF

Post by BIL »

I've been meaning to try out the Downtown Nekketsu series myself. I guess there's technically just the two brawlers, but if you include the myriad sports games, it spirals out of control pretty quickly. :wink: No idea how any of those stack up, really... sports games, even comically violent ones, aren't my bag tbh. Kakuto Densetsu is a 2v2 arena fighting contest that seems to have some interesting ideas, I'd probably look into that one first.

The first game/River City Ransom will always have a place in my heart, and I'm sure the hearts of many others, on sheer personality. Technos were always masters of cartoony yet stinging street violence, and the superdeformed aesthetic only aids their inimitably gleeful mayhem. Nothing like bashing a once-proud rival over the head with a trash can, or plugging a fleeing chump in the back of the head with a rock, or just throwing a fucker in the river. :cool: The large, nonlinear and highly characterful setting is a perfect venue for the easygoing casual brutality.

Having said all that, the ARPG trappings leave me a bit cold, and the combat system lacks the gritty finesse of FC Kunio or DD1, let alone DD2. I'll almost certainly get into this series at some point, but for now they're more a fond curiosity than a priority.
__SKYe wrote:And I got the game over on a part that I always thought annoying (where you can't jump because of the low ceiling, meaning no spinkick/uppercut on landing), but on Difficult it is brutal. Even the common enemies here will absolutely destroy you, just as they did to me (on Normal, the one that usually gave me some trouble was the Abobo at the end).
The corridor is an absolute meatgrinder - that was where all my casual credits would typically end, too. The Right Arms are utterly lethal if not properly shut down, and if you get pincered, hoo boy. O'hara and Bobo take a bit of figuring out too, thanks to the single plane.

NB though - the ceiling is actually harmless, despite its menacingly spiky appearance. :smile: Deliberately whacking your head, then uppercutting/kneeing is totally viable. Personally though, I find it way more interesting and satisfying to play that section as if the ceiling does hurt - instead I use KKP knockdowns to soften up the Right Arms, while keeping out of their pincer attack, and try to tag the followup O'hara with PPP-PPP started from just outside his range. He'll often just flatten you on approach - but then you've got the perfect excuse to uppercut the shit out of him and get in close. Either way, once he's down he's done. Just like DD1's Abobos, he's extremely vulnerable to pointblank attack, so just hammer away until he's dead.

This goes for DD2's Abobos, too! Technically called "Bolo," but cmon Bobo, you ain't fooling me with that dimestore rug! :shock: An easy way to deal with M4's Bobo is to ensure you're right at the end of the corridor when the last Williams dies - Bobo will spawn on top of you (that felt wrong to type :oops:), ready for an unstoppable beating.
Also, how do you perform the Knee attack? Is it a on-getting-up attack like the uppercut or something else?
I occasionally do it, but I'm not sure how. Also, I never had the need to perform it in order to beat the game, but on Difficult it is a different story.
Forward + AB, just as you go from kneeling to standing (after a jump, a ledge drop, or a knockdown - the game doesn't distinguish). The timing is cruelly tight... I get maybe 90% accuracy from jump-setup ones, but I find recoveries harder since I don't get that nice (Jump) (Wait) (Kneel) (BLAOW) rhythm.

Uppercuts are far simpler, just hit [punch] either the instant you land from a jump, or the instant you go from lying flat to kneeling. Spinkicks are either button while nearing your jump apex. The knee's timing is on another level of difficulty compared to these two.

It's no magic bullet, however! Although it does supreme damage and is just wickedly satisfying besides, it's heavily weighted against by FC Hard. It's extremely susceptible to trading, and it can't one-shot anyone. In Missions 4 and 8, this can easily lead to death by attrition. It can also be ducked, sometimes relentlessly. The uppercut is a far safer option - it can't be ducked, and its startup frames will lure enemies in for an easy hit. They're my favoured approach for O'haras and Bobos - jump in close to bypass their brutal strikes, then uppercut 'em. Mix in some spinkicks for variety, or anti-air in case the enemy jumpkicks (they're the weakest of the three power strikes, but appropriately the highest-priority).

There's also the basic strikes and grapples - it's safer and simpler to just boot a flagging enemy (two for Right Arms) and beat the crap out of them/chuck them into a pit. With O'Bobo, once you're in range, landing PPP-PP and a spinkick will do brutal damage at zero risk. The knee is great when you've got the opportunity to blast an enemy straight into a pit, or when you want to tear a chunk out of a boss, and can afford to risk the HP trade - but it's definitely not vital to authoritatively thrashing FC Hard.

Such a great game. :mrgreen: Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

I find it hard to pull off (and remember) combos in beat 'em ups for some reason. It's really weird, because I have no problem studying them and cranking them out in 1-on-1 fighting games. I'm a Street Fighter whore and I love to study that game and learn combos (not just actual special moves. but real-deal COMBOS. as in "sequences of moves/special moves that can't be countered once the sequence is successfully started).

Maybe it's because I don't feel like studying/putting in the work for beat 'em ups? Or didn't play said games enough? Or maybe it's because having multiple enemies on-screen make it impossible for my shit attention span to focus? haha

It really is a weird phenomenon...





As for DD2 : the only special move I use consciously, pretty much, is the uppercut upon landing (jump+punchX2 quickly right before landing), since it has a hugely favourable success rate. You get some i-frames on landing and then your uppercut comes out immediately after those i-frames(or it feels like it at least) and it has a huge priority. So if you don't get intercepted in mid-air while attempting this (and it's the only(but not negligible)risk that comes with this move), this is a pretty sure-fire tactic. Of course you can't use that everywhere : small platforms, and of course that bit where the piked ceiling is right above youe head, prohibit you from using it :wink:

The spin-kick I can get out 75% of the time. not a bad rate, but not high enough for me to rely on it.

The other moves, I haven't bothered to implement in my gameplay... see first half of my post
Combos, I haven't studied/implemented in my game yet
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