Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Ghegs wrote:You're never out, man.
So true. Image
Welcome to the CIB Gimmick! owners club. *fistbump*
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Does feel nice picking up the odd gem now the hard core is done. :cool: I'd love to post about Grand Master but that's categorically not sidescrolling! I am liking Cocoron a lot though. It's a FC Rockman I can love (that isn't Lickle!).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Just when you thought you were out...they pull you back in!

According to the right honourable Gimmick box, it is Authentic Entertainment. How's that for a tagline?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by cicada88 »

nice score BIL

I think you might have won the copy I bid on recently on eBay if that's where you got it. I've been trying to snag a copy around $300 or less complete or $150 cart only. I'm not willing to commit more since I can't find out what this goes for at shops in Japan, and I'll be there sometime in the next year.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Wow, the stage 4 midboss and his boomerang shuriken is a pretty intense fight. :o I thought I detected a hint of bloodlust in st2's boss and his swordplay, but this guy wouldn't be out of place in Ninja Spirit. The stage's spear zako are pretty frisky too, be quick or be stabbed.. this game's enemy AI is wickedly fun.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Austin »

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but the other night I tried running through the second loop of Super Castlevania IV with only the leather whip and no sub-weapons. It moved pretty smoothly at first, but only a couple of levels in I began to have some serious trouble (granted, I was really tired so that may have affected my performance, but I digress). I recommend giving it a shot if you haven't, the boss fights in particular are a lot more challenging since you can't rely on the fully-powered whip that goes 3/4 the way across the screen, nor can you milk the cross or axe from a safe distance.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Imhotep »

I've been playing Castlevania 4 myself recently:

Picturebook-remake of classic Castlevania with a shift towards audiovisual presentation. Atmospherically very coherent, yet the one-at-a-time threats are no match against impeccable whip physics.

7.5/10


A no-items run might be interesting.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Gave Dracula IV's second loop no powerups/subweapons a go this morning, made it to the end of stage 2 before calling it a day. It certainly forces you to play more considerately, but I found this was mostly due to the risk of collaterally nailing a candle and autocollecting what the game no doubt considered a hard-won powerup. :lol:

With easier games I prefer to just let rip; if they're decent they'll usually still entertain me. Tecno Soft were masters of this dynamic at their peak.

I actually find IV's second loop (which I always start from these days) acceptably challenging, at least in its second half. Some pretty nasty enemy/pit arrangements, and although they're not my ideal, the abundant instant death hazards keep things tense. I do think the loop should've eliminated candlemeats. They largely remove the endurance factor found in the other traditional Draculas.

Definitely a game of two halves though. Everything up to the castle's front door feels like prologue. Very atmospheric prologue, and I don't mind when I've got an evening to put aside. But since I always play traditional Draculas in one sitting, I don't revisit it as casually as the original or Vampire Killer. Sometimes it's tempting to use a loop 2 block 6 start, but then it feels like I've skipped half the show. I don't get that awesome sense of grueling journey and arrival, nor my favourite scene in the game, taking down the heavily-armed skeleton horde that greet Simon in the courtyard with the open door just beyond.

Finished Gimmick with the true ending this week, but shamelessly used a couple credits figuring out the TLB. :mrgreen: You have to 1CC with all treasures to reach the final stage, but once there continuing is ok. TLB's a pretty unorthodox chap, and like most of his predecessors not easily nailed down. The game's enemy AI is wonderful, you can corral them into consistent patterns but it never loses that unruly, reactive edge.

As CIT said a while back, definitely a more challenging game than the aesthetic might suggest. The only things keeping it from feeling like an arcade clear are the high extend frequency and lack of time limit. I wouldn't change either, though. The blend of diehard sidescrolling excellence and pressure-free exploration is part of its enormous charm. It's not a punishing, morale-testing game like Holy Diver, nor is it as impenetrable as Metal Storm's second loop, but the pinpoint jumps, tricky physics and frisky AI will give the hardcore lots to work with. Probably the sidescroller that made the biggest impression on me in the last year.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by cicada88 »

Gimmick! was in my dream last night and I've never even played it

I was watching someone play it and asked "is that a real original cart?". I don't really remember what happened besides that but your post made me remember it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

I played through Revenge of Shinobi over the last few weeks, and did a playthrough on hard a few hours ago (technically a 1cc I guess, whatever that counts for in a game that showers you in lives like that does). I really enjoyed it - the game has largely great boss fights, the stage variety is great, and it's super satisfying to work your way up to being able to dismantle each level. I think I should go back sometime and set the shuriken amount to some low number (or zero); I feel like that might go a long way towards making the game a lot more satisfying. I think my favorite bits in the game are probably the two levels where double-jumping switches you between the foreground and background, and I sort of wish they had made greater use of that.

I'll probably play Shinobi 3 fairly soon (likely the 3D classic version) but I'm not convinced that it'll be as strong; I've heard a lot about it being even easier than Revenge.

Lately I've also gotten really interested in playing a Castlevania. The only one I've ever played was the original, which I love, and I think I'm going to grab Rondo of Blood fairly soon - it looks like an excellent game and seems to get the most praise in the series. I want to try Chronicles sometime too; I watched a friend play a chunk of it a week ago and it looks like a great time..
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Chronicles is definitely a solid pick, especially in its Original mode (a straight port of the expressly hardcore X68k game, versus the easier and audiovisually reworked Arrange).

You really can't go wrong with X68k, Bloodlines or Rondo - I recommend playing all three. They were in development simultaneously, and as sequels have little in common besides excellence. They go from traditional to progressive roughly in that order, but the calculating action/platform ethos of the original remains at the heart of them. Rondo might bridge the traditional and modern games, but its punishing of mistakes is pure oldschool. Unless you opt for Maria's ez mode. ;3 (actually she's genuinely fun as hell, turning the game into a ninja sidescroller ala CVIII's Grant)

Bloodlines is my personal favourite for its fast pace and wildly destructive action. Legions of meaty enemies and minibosses to demolish, typical of Konami and Treasure at the time. Adds blood, fire and dynamite to some of the series' most gorgeous settings.
Spoiler
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It actually plays a little closer to quality CV copycat Ninja Gaiden with its outsized subweapons and quicker tempo, but the jump accountability keeps it anchored.

IV's not as tightly optimised an action game as the original or the subsequent three 16-bit entries, but it's worth a look for the uniquely damp, gloomy atmosphere and broodingly filmic soundtrack. XX (SFC) is kind of a mess unfortunately. Very flawed attempt to downsize Rondo into something more traditional. I still like it and... well, its box is stone cold killer, but it's a lesser entry for sure.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Obscura »

Disagreed entirely about XX; IMO, it's the best 16 bit Castlevania other than X68K (X68K is probably the best Castlevania, period).

It's not silly-easy like IV (one time, as a self-imposed challenge, I tried beating the game while not allowing myself whipping in any direction other than left and right except for when absolutely necessary to hook on to rings, and also not allowing myself the "hold-button flail it around" thing; it was still the easiest Castlevania 1cc by an insane margin), its level design is less gimmicky and more "meat and potatoes" than Bloodlines, and it's just overall better than Rondo (which, frankly, kinda sucks; so much of it feels like Konami forgot that they were making a platformer, and just filled halls with big enemies).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

XX's only real asset is an especially punishing take on Dracula 1's simplicity. Unfortunately a lot of that punishment is down to botched engine porting (sludgy walking speed, nonexistent recovery after hits making stuff like Bats and Medusas mortal threats on account of juggling), not any quality design. Speaking of which:

Image

I can put up with the rickety handling and generally bland, occasionally outright broken stage design for the handful of committedly hardcore levels (sunken city and clock tower are first-rate, pardon the former's idiotic boss - why did they promote Rondo's first to XX's fifth, with no new tricks and added safespotting?). Generally speaking though, it's all the punishment of traditional Dracula with none of the pace or sophistication, and with a woefully bad Rondo downsize on top. I really like the Bad End path's sunken city equivalent, too... I can't live with being branded a bumbling asshole to play it, though!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I dunno, I like some of the stages in XX (first stage has a few neat tricks, the Atlantis Shrine type area is pretty cool, etc.) and others I don't care for (weirdly designed spearman hallways - oy blegh) And yeah, I'm also not so keen on many stages in Bloodlines, but there's also some really memorable set pieces.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Obscura »

The walking speed doesn't feel overly slow to me at all in XX, but I'm also one of those weirdos who thinks that the ship movement in Raiden III feels totally fine.

The reduced invincibility time after a hit is a necessity since you can negate knockback by crouching. Try crouching when fighting "pest" flying enemies :wink:

The only thing I don't care for in XX are some of the spearman hallways that Oscuro mentions. The first one in stage 2 I'm fine with (since it's a new enemy and a pretty tough one when you don't know how to fight it), but the later ones are just sort of exessive (love the usage of them in the clock tower and final stage, though!)

(I can't see images at work, so can someone describe what's in the picture BIL posted?)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Ah, Raiden III. Yep, that ship speed depresses me. And as with XX I like the game enough to own a copy anyway. >__<

You can crouch to hold your ground just like in Rondo, but Richter being vulnerable the instant he hits the ground simply shouldn't be there (and indeed it's not in any other traditional game, that I know of at least). It's a cheap shot I can live with since it does make otherwise nondescript stage design fiendishly punishing. XX is all about compromise. ;3
Spoiler
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EXCEPT in that handful of genuinely excellent stages, no compromise there. The clock tower is a masterpiece of oldschool Dracula design from beginning to end - varied, tough and requiring absolute concentration with flawless timing. PROVIDED YOU'RE ON GOOD END ROFL otherwise the wickedly intense Death duel will be replaced with a bad hack of Rondo's Carmilla >__>
Obscura wrote:(I can't see images at work, so can someone describe what's in the picture BIL posted?)
The key's SAIKYO NO OUGI ;3 ;3 ;3 it's a secret technique beyond all compare - which is why it's a good job you only get the key for two stages!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Obscura »

The point is, if you hold your ground, you don't get juggled. The juggle from bats only happens because you get knocked back and they keep moving forward into your new position. Overall, the system works fine; crouch when you're about to get hit to limit the damage, or knowingly take a risk to try to get a last-second dodge.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

The sensible punishment for taking a shot at a pest and missing in the other games is -xHP and the real threat, possible instant death via pitfall. I get why pests get free eats off the initial hit in XX, and how to avoid it, it's just poor design and something seemingly very unique to this game. Doesn't happen in other Draculas, in Ninja Gaidens or Shinobis, or really any other quallity sidescroller I can recall.

It's not just pest juggling either. Any time Richter's in hitstun and something's there to connect, you're screwed. Puzzling over whether XX was just badly ported, or deliberately altered to be this way has been a pet hobby of mine over the years. Image

Similar situation with those crazy key levels. Did the designers realise they'd given you the game's most powerful subweapon, and expect you to use it in all its goofy-assed glory? Hmm.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Obscura »

I realize that it's unique to this game, but I don't think it's a bad thing. You have the choice of saying "yeah, this looks bad, I'll take the hit like a man", or trying to take a risk and make a last-second hero dodge, and possibly losing extra health for it, even if you're not near a pit. It's just like choosing to use a bomb or not in a shmup. Besides, losing twice as much HP from hits that aren't of the "juggled to death" sort but are of the "get tagged a couple times" sort in XX isn't really a disaster, since damage in this game tends to be relatively low compared to CV1, X68K, or CV3 US anyways.

(I don't think I've ever gotten combo'd by anything when I've ducked and taken the hit like a man, either, as a side note.)

I'm not certain if the developers realized how good the key's item crash is or not, but I've always suspected they did, given that the first part of stage 4, with the "overhead path" seems special-built to show it off.

EDIT: Actually, don't the Treasure "lifebar" run-n-guns on the Genesis work similar to this? It's been a while since I've played them, but I remember multi-hits being a thing in both Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

XX has a bomb, it's on the Select button. :p

What makes me suspect it's just haphazard coding is the inconsistency. Richter actually does have post-hit invincibility, but it cuts out depending on player input. Sometimes you're better off just not moving after being hit, other times you don't have a choice. Just feels shoddy to me, an adjective I'd never associate with the other games.

I'm only half-kidding about the design process, XX genuinely stumps me. I'm amazed they didn't code in a dedicated subweapon button, with the lack of one being the bane of Rondo, X68k and the FC games, and IV + Bloodlines enjoying one years earlier.

Alien Soldier and Gunstar have the typical "get hit, flinch, recovery period" mechanic. I was thinking of Devil Hunter Yoko (MD), a good but very rough around the edges game, but that too has the character flinch on impact with a short grace period before more damage can be sustained, it just doesn't bump you.

XX is a very odd production overall. I suspect Konami were primarily trying to restore the series' presence on Nintendo hardware after the recent adventuring onto three new platforms. It certainly doesn't have the production value of the fourth SFC Goemon, from the same year.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Obscura »

I actually like the lack of a dedicated subweapon button. Makes the stairs dangerous. Holy water while walking down stairs is utterly "lol" in CV4.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Where does that ever matter, since you can hop on or off at any time?

Today's theme: "Gameplay accidents, and why they shouldn't be fixed by purposeful design" :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Obscura »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Where does that ever matter, since you can hop on or off at any time?
Any time you don't want to fall.
Today's theme: "Gameplay accidents, and why they shouldn't be fixed by purposeful design" :lol:
Sometimes, accidents really do lead to better games. When that happens, it should be embraced, not "fixed". It's one of the downsides to living in the "patch everything" era of gaming.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Memories of Gunstar's chaingun "hup!hup!hup!" damage yelp were ringing in my ears, so I did a quick refresher: yup, there's two grades of impact. Small attacks will take -1HP and flinch you with no recovery period or paralysis, beyond interrupting your attack. So it's possible to get machinegunned by stuff like the first boss's HITMAN SHOT, but you can just haul ass away / block / tackle etc etc. Heavier hits will knock you flat on your ass, followed by the usual recovery period.

Rondo and XX have varying severities of impact too, of course, though it's only Rondo which has a specific recovery period. XX is capricious.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Obscura wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:Where does that ever matter, since you can hop on or off at any time?
Any time you don't want to fall.
Again, where? Just jump forward and hold up to land again.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Been a while since I played XX. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but I suppose there's some argument that it could be on par with CV4 (which, while a pleasant game, I don't find particularly memorable outside of nostalgia and atmosphere). I admit, I actually prefer some of the SNES version ost tracks to Rondo though.

Bloodlines is too badass for me to be tempted by either game though. Akumajo Dracula x86 invalidates almost every other CV for me, due to being a near perfect execution of the formula, except Bloodlines. That game just feels so fresh due to the huge emphasis on hot blooded aggression and speedkills in everything from normal enemy encounters to bosses, yet it still maintains that sense of vulnerability and commitment that makes the franchise. The pacing is fucking fantastic too.

It's only weakness imo is it doesn't have the top notch arcade level challenge of x86, and the last stage is rather disappointing (recycled corridors with a few gimmicks, then a boss rush. In fact I might argue that the first 4 stages are perfectly "meat and potatoes" while the last two stages are a little too gimmicky). Still though, it's one of the few games where I find graceful play (speed through levels and bosses as fast as possible while taking as little damage as possible) to be as compelling and replay demanding as any scoring system.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by trap15 »

X68000, not x86. Sorry for the nitpick.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

trap15 wrote:X68000, not x86. Sorry for the nitpick.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

:oops: Numbers were never my strong suit
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I did the same thing when I first found out about the game, years ago :)

It's always a good day to have an excuse to link the old Castlevania DOS art. redrum said the Castle looked like a broken down old house next to the graveyard in it.

I also asked him about the mysterious CV2 hack, TM and (devil face) 2003. He said that in transferring the file over for level editing it all got broken up. There's some weird stuff for sure - there are zombie enemies to the right of the starting town which act like mummies, and soak up a lot of hits. Tons of really fiddly up-and-down architecture, ambitious even, but again there's a lot of breakable blocks with no purpose. The first tower-like structure in the area to right of town has one of these; it looks like there's a hidden chamber at the bottom. You can "bomb" (holy water sprite edit) your way down there, and even open up the floor, but jump in and Shimon dies. YA-HEY.

I'm not sure what's beyond the first screen to the left of town; there's a couple really strong enemies that require the rib to fight safely, and no apparent way to use the surroundings to advantage.

redrum says there's no way of getting out of the first town, sadly. :(
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Obscura »

Squire Grooktook wrote:It's only weakness imo is it doesn't have the top notch arcade level challenge of x86, and the last stage is rather disappointing (recycled corridors with a few gimmicks, then a boss rush. In fact I might argue that the first 4 stages are perfectly "meat and potatoes" while the last two stages are a little too gimmicky). Still though, it's one of the few games where I find graceful play (speed through levels and bosses as fast as possible while taking as little damage as possible) to be as compelling and replay demanding as any scoring system.
How on earth can you call the Leaning Tower of Pisa's "Mode 7 without Mode 7 showoff"/"repeat the exact same series of jumps 500 times" section "perfectly 'meat and potatoes'"?
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