Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Since we're on the topic of wrestling games, what's the general consensus on the Saturday Night Slam Masters games? I've played the SNES one a ton in co-op with a friend but it's been decades since I've seriously played it and I don't actually know if it's considered to be good or not (it's mechanically got a lot in common with beat 'em ups).

[BIL]

Man FUCC (・｀W´・) You know when you're procrastinating so hard, you're putting off shit you want to do? BAWWW - tbh it's a good problem to have! I haven't forgotten you Messrs Squire and Ilpalazzo, I'm just being a big lazy asshole!



After the Metal Slug discussion a couple pages back, I've been revisiting MS3. God damn, I'd forgotten how superb stages 1-4 are. FUCK ME, I'd forgotten just how friggin vacuous (yet insidiously amusing and impossible to snooze on) the first half of Final Mission is. The second half aboard Rugname is back to brilliant form, if at least (like me) you enjoy the flagrantly pornographic number of enemies to mulch amidst its setpieces. As with MSX's final corridor versus eight million Mars Peoples, I see the objective complaint, but am happily apart from it. I wanna get KNEE DEEP IN THE DEAD, NAW MEAN.

If a dream Nazca/SNK MS4 had pulled something similar, I really would tell it to fuck off. (I like to imagine a return to MS1's smaller-scale conflict, with crazy Atlantean ancient techno-shit) But just this once I'm okay with it, strictly for AESTHETIC reasons. It's a long goodbye communicated via fatiguing struggle and almighty apocalyptic climax. Every time I've 1LCd this game I've dropped it for years, but I always come back.

ARMCHAIR CORNER: Upon boarding Rugname, rather than the camel's back-shattering third autoscroller, I'd have had some hellish Tower of Babel climb, up a suitably skull-fucking, biomechanically chugging machine. At some point, allied Rebels are seen meeting awful fates in the ambivalently hideous scenery. Structurally, somewhere between MSX's second boss tower and MS4's st3 lower route.

After the nightmarish climb you'd pop up out of an unassuming grate all SURPRISE BITCH and shoot a Mars Peoples in the back as battle proper erupts! Bwaaa! I'd have you pop up in the ship's toilets, actually. LOL REMEMBER MS1'S TOILET GUY

Posting mostly because I have to take back what I said here, about MS3's earlier bosses. Monoeyes/Ten Commandments Of Moses and JUPITER KANG have a lot more going for them than MS1/X's equivalents. The former has some credible macro-dodging (used to splatter me as a young noob), and a satisfyingly tricky, audiovisually spectacular speedkill. King's seeker swarms are spirited, and his mortar RNG can get shit-hot. He's also a cathartic outlet for shotgun/grenade slaughter - good feels unloading into his dumb face!

Neither's much in the grand scheme of things, and MS4's equivalents are much deadlier, but they've both given me a lot of entertainment while getting the game's first half nailed back down.

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Here is my st2 boss ZOMBI speedkill! Three consecutive demos, to highlight input variance. It's lame, but it always works! Note the opening - wait for 'em to ring around the rosie before the back-hop, or they'll bunch up and you'll have a longer, harder fight. Longer and harder is a BAD thing when you're a fuckin slow-ass ZOMBI! Note that firing cancels ZOMBI's otherwise-insurmountable turnaround lag!



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Also, I think I found a notable tactic for the RNG horror of Angry Gold Needles. You know - this asshole!

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Haha j/k. Those are obv Normal Gold Needles, U FUCKIN NOOB (・｀W´・)

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Now that's more like it! （＾ω´ ） Here it is again!

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Jesus, that's mean! However, I have found that sticking to the tower's corners between his attacks will force AGN to launch from the sides! I may have already known this. Fuck if I know. I've not played MS3 in six years. Here is a video!

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Much easier to handle! Still fucking dangerous, mind, and you will still have survivor's guilt if he doesn't use them! But those extra frames and pixels ain't to be scoffed at. Plunge in during Wolves and Red Needles, and GTFO to the sides while waiting. Also, look/listen for LAZOR - you can always outrun it, provided you haul ass during its startup. Note that the tower is not flat! Its edges sink progessively lower - critical when plotting anti-AGN jumps.

I experimented with the full Flame Shot (dropped by a POW near the uppermost path's end), but the whole thirty shots will just piss him off and leave you plinking. I wonder if it's possible to reach him with a Shotgun or something similarly meaty, off one of the harder routes.



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Speaking of, I know it's the weenie baby route, but I genuinely love the upper pyramid. The Maneaters are innately satisfying kills with their vicious yet smoothly-telegraphed horizontal strike, the SonSon/Psycho Soldier-style terrain a perfect match - peppered with SPLODING BARRELS for maximum multi-kill gratification. The intervening swarms of pollen and Giant Locusts, the handful of artfully concerning jumps, and the concluding air/ground skirmish, along with the regular provision of suitably meaty ordnance, ensure a grand romp every time.

Also a fine followup to the furious opening skirmish, among scrolling camel action's best. Pitch-perfect run/gun demolition - maintaining an unbroken stride isn't free! Ruinously satisfying, once you marshal the offensive triad of SHOT/BOMB/HOOF and get the groove down.

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Pathos. TOMBSTONE OF SAND indeed.

On balance, I love MS3. The controls and handling are refined to perfection. The first four stages are packed with joyous violence. The last insists on some really dull shit but I can't disparage it. A well-earned indulgence.

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I'd still call MS1 the most perfect overall. Despite the lack of truly mortal intensity, the entertainment/distance ratio is immense. I actually like MSX a tiny bit less than MS3 now, after long regarding it as edging to the front of the three. Its Missions 4 and 5 really force the Big Mode (or avoiding it) in a way I dislike, the latter's button-mashing trains and gates are a bit overdone (albeit visceral to smash, and much easier when you're rationing grenades, a characteristic Slug curve I've always enjoyed). Also, its dropping of attack inputs while turning around (necessitating a "security tap") is a tiny flaw given outsized impact, in a trilogy of otherwise buttery-smooth handling.

OTOH, it does "Epic Slug" the best of the three, with a finale that's titanic yet concise.

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I still haven't played MS2, I'm SCAWED of the 2>X crowd's violent fanaticsm (did SNK murder people's families BITD? ) Ain't the first such hissy fit I've seen! Don't want to get hunted down and CORNHOLED IRL.

And TBH, I found even MS1/X/3's relatively mild slowdown a bit disconcerting initially, coming in from the silky-smooth Xbox MS3 and PS2 MS4. MS2's heaving frameskip makes me sad, where MSX feels like one of those revisions that was sorely needed. Still curious, though. I love that baking-hot stage 1 aesthetic. KOF '98 feels.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I just started playing MS3 again actually, having put it on the backburner the last couple of weeks. More or less just reiterating what I said before, but my impression of it at this point (having 3CCed it) is that it has the best and worst points of the Nazca-team Metal Slugs - in the moments when it's firing in all cylinders it's masterful, but there's a lot of snags that weaken it too - ranging from major annoyances (Sol Dae Rokker is fucked up - though I appreciate knowing you can force his gold needles to come from the sides, I wonder if that's better than just aggressively attacking him? - and the horizontal and final vertical STG bits in stage 5 are too much, the former being too lax and the latter being weirdly uninspired) to minor pace-breakers that aren't killers on their own, but are still a bit annoying (poking through the zombies at the beginning of stage 2 isn't a great way to start the game, the factory infiltration with drones and cameras in stage 3 isn't all that interesting on repeated replays, the corridor before the clone generator miniboss feels like it could use spicing up in some way). The high quality of the game's better bits makes its weaknesses more forgivable, but MS3 does start to feel more like a high-difficulty consolized action game and less like an ideal, high-intensity arcade action game where every moment is carefully measured, even ignoring the obvious pratfall of stage 5's intro shooter bits. It's definitely got a different appeal from MS1, though I really do appreciate that MS3 overall has a better difficulty balance than that game does.

Stage 4 in particular is a serious highlight, which is why it's a shame it ends on Sol Dae Rokker. The pyramid ascent, especially the final battle against bugs and plants, is really excellent. It's hard for me to even want to take the bug cave (which feels similar in difficulty to me) given how much better-paced the pyramid climb is and how much more interesting its climactic battle is than anything that happens in the non-Japanese soldier routes. But the boss is a serious black mark. It's not just enough that dodging the harder variant of his gold needles is a crapshoot, but everything else he does is basically meaningless - absolutely baffling boss design, bordering on amateur. Did they recognize that the gold needles were a little absurd and toned down the rest of his moveset to the point of uselessness to compensate? I feel like the rest of the level may really be the highest moment of Metal Slug up to that point, but then Sol Dae Rokker is the actual lowest, MS2's horrible slowdown notwithstanding.

Also, it is possible to bring a shotgun to him; iconoclast does in his replay.. Apparently his strategy for the boss isn't just to use the shotgun on him, but to use the shotgun to more easily keep track of the boss's health so he can control when he drops below the threshold that powers up his attacks.

I really don't understand how people can prefer MS2 to X. Having played 2 a fair bit, X really does improve on virtually every part of the game. Fights that were originally just breezy, nothing encounters are turned into more complex affairs necessitating careful positioning and proper enemy prioritization, and fights that were before slow pistol trudges are improved through the addition of higher-powered weaponry - especially true for the final stage, which is very well-paced in X but is a much slower crawl in 2. X's final corridor is a great push forward where making good, efficient use of your gratifying high-powered weaponry is a must (especially if you want to conserve that final flame shot for the final boss - I didn't go that far but it seems like it might be a must for a no-miss), but 2's is actually a slog, featuring similar amounts of enemies to X's but with less useful weapons offered to the player, meaning you spend a lot of time using the pistol on aliens.

Also played a bit of Elevator Action Returns as a kind of come-down from Ninja Spirit and finally no-missed it. Excellent game. Even if a huge part of the game's appeal comes from its phenomenal presentation, the action is engaging enough that I can't find too many faults with it. The difficulty is oddly on the low side for an arcade game, but I liken it to NES Contra, which is similarly straightforward to blow through but still keeps the player active and engaged enough (due to how easy it is to get blown away) that it works out.

[BIL]

Also, it is possible to bring a shotgun to him; iconoclast does in his replay.. Apparently his strategy for the boss isn't just to use the shotgun on him, but to use the shotgun to more easily keep track of the boss's health so he can control when he drops below the threshold that powers up his attacks.

Excellent, good to know! That might further minimise the AGN peril.

I almost wonder if they wanted that "survivor's guilt" effect... kinda like I wonder if they deliberately made Rootmars' bubble updraft so ridiculously dangerous, in order to force the Vehicle Invincibility Exploit for ol' times' sake. (always felt like a bizarrely dominant yet undeniably deliberate part of the series' style, that)

For now I'd definitely recommend Side Needles. It's still tricky, but there's more time to analyse, react and recover compared to the evil pressure of the center. What an absolute bastard. Added a video demonstrating my harried struggles.

EAR is one of the very few arcade games I've found benefits from its max difficulty setting - it tightens up the slightly dozy interval between enemies spotting you and firing, making previously sleepy sections (like stage 2's concluding warehouse) feel almost Rolling Thunder-deadly. It doesn't create any bullshit spikes either, IIRC.

Having said this, I wonder if my character of choice, Edie, was an inadvertent EZMODO pick. I've only dabbled with Karte and Jad, and always felt the loss of her blistering shot rate and dominating firebombs. Trivial to lock off huge chunks of screen by combining those, and her low HP doesn't matter much when nothing survives long enough to attack her.

Either way, it's a superbly entertaining game - the combo of dozy yet inquisitive enemy AI, a tactically omniscient POV, and comically brutal violence gives it a cathartic sense of Home Alone mischief, 2P gaining exponentionally. As per Taito it has tremendous style too, with characterful animations, endearingly campy presentation, and YACK's smooth (yet intense!) OST. The only thing I'm left wanting is a couple of really big boss battles, just a tank or attack chopper or something, but that's easy to forgive. Red Suit is an underrated presence in arcade villainy, imo. Mad and dangerous! "Aim carefully..."

[Sumez]

Maybe I should finally try to put time aside for those MS1, X, and 3 1ccs... I think these games top the list of games I've played a ton without ever genuinely trying to conquer them.

Is it tough?

[BIL]

MS1's not a hard 1CC at all, imo (got my first one just recently, it actually being my least-played Slug of the Nazca/SNK trilogy). The final stage has an infamous early spike (the bridge) that'll steal a couple credits until mastered, but it's very much a spike - nothing else comes close, including the final stretch. (it's actually a really neat setpiece - fiendishly calibrated to corner the player, with enemy spawns changing depending on your screen position. surviving is a rush every time)

Close but no wienerschnitzel, Hans!

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CHECK DEM FRAMES :O

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^^^ EX-IREM MAHFUCKAS KNOW HOW 2 ANIMATE THE SUPER KILLING ACTION (■｀W´■)

Outside of that, you spend the majority of the game in the namesake tank, and you get shit-tons of ammo and health restores for it. I don't imagine it'd take an arcade vet, or even a hardened console vet more than a week's play to 1CC. Steamrolling the game is still a really rewarding experience, as besides it looking, sounding and handling like a million bucks, you can't unleash your full destructive power without a little practice. You'll trample 90% of it underfoot when you know how to spend your artillery, a curve that persists into the latter two games, albeit in much stricter form (you're far more frequently on-foot and insta-killable, there).

MSX and MS3 1CCs have similar difficulty curves, but progressively tougher. They're less generous with vehicles, and really pile on the large-scale enemy onslaughts. They're still quite generous with ammo, but learning to deploy it properly becomes more a matter of survival than style. From a difficulty progression standpoint, I'd definitely recommend 1CCing the trilogy in order, though if you can handle MSX, you should be able to clear MS3 and vice-versa (a caveat going to MS3's notoriously long Final Mission, which as discussed above is as much a test of endurance as execution).

They're rad games for 1CCing, highly recommended all. Courses calibrated for practised stomping with a healthy degree of total chaos. Rad shit will always happen, guaranteed!



I'm currently trying to rope buddies from buddyville into some 2P 1CCs, but they keep saying they can't even see the shit that is killing them with all the action. THEY'RE FUCKIN NOOBS :O So I tell em to STFU and enjoy TEH GRAFX



(on that note, SHOCK TROOPERS is a really good H4RDCOR£/Casual Crossover Co-op™ title! Even NOOBS can survive! TBH even MVS LEVEL 8 is relatively newbie-friendly until the last couple stages! Fuck me it rocks though)

[Randorama]

Metal Slug factoids that may have been mentioned only a few million times:

The slug's animations pay homage a tank appearing in the Nausicaä movie (yes, the one by Miyazaki). There is a scene in the movie in which the aforementioned tank has to grind/climb over a small slope. The slug's corresponding animation is near-identical.

...and then MS3 starts with a clear homage to the old Conan anime (which, if I recall correctly, is also homaged on DOJ's cover), with all the towers/missiles/whatever, stretching out from the beach and giving a sense of the past apocalypse.

The first three Slugs probably had tons of other direct and indirect homages to Miyazaki's work across decades (I mean, Fio looks like an adult version of the girl in Porco Rosso), and then the final mission on 3 has only a kazillion references to very old SF (H.G. Wells!) and whatnot (and yes, the black monolyths of doom on St 2, etc. etc.).

Design-wise, the Nazca slugs were a bizarre and yet glorious pastiche of obscure and not so obscure, but certainly heterogeneous references and homages to all kinds of works. 2D glory at their finest, I daresay.

[BrianC]

SUPER KILLING ACTION

METAL SLUG!

[Marc]

I need to get back to the MS 1CC. I'd gotten it down up until that bridge section and must admit to giving up there. The only thing that really troubled me up until there was the ST2 mid-boss, but I saw a clip on here (I presume you BIL) knifing him to death, and much to my surprise pulled it off perfectly last time I sat down for a quick credit.

Never got into 3 though - and believe me I tried after springing for the AES cart back in the day.

[Sumez]

I gave up MS3 already when it came out, due to credit feeding through the final mission and being kind of put off by just how many credits I used.

Pure scrub approach.

MS1 I've tried to actually play for 1CC a few times, but never any serious multi-day approaches, so it's very vague.
Does a unibios come with the option to start on a specific stage for practice?

[BIL]

I need to get back to the MS 1CC. I'd gotten it down up until that bridge section and must admit to giving up there.

For the bridge, I suggest building a route and sticking to it. The game will spawn different enemy waves not only depending on whether you choose the high/low paths, but also according to your Y coordinates as the screen scrolls forward. Jumping around while entering the first half's lower route can cause planes to spawn, for example. Wait until the scene has scrolled in fully before jumping.

If you stick to a path, you'll consistently get the same waves, dialling the sense of chaos down. It's a dangerous segment no matter what, but I prefer to stay low as shown in my second 1LC. Note how I aggressively dump all my grenades onto the second half's fatty flametank, so I won't be impeded from reaching the bottom-right corner. Figuring out where to expend your bombs this way is a staple Slug strategy.

Note also that the bazooka guys here are not like the dozier ones seen in prior stages. These guys will wavedash all over the screen, actively sniping and boxing you in. Look at this guy going for gold, lmao.

You might have a sweet Korean Wavedash, but SPACING IS FUNDAMENTAL (■｀W´■)

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It's a short, intense sequence - doesn't scare me anymore, but it always requires 100% attention. It's calibrated to ruthlessly trap and kill the player, no matter where they try to hide - so don't try to hide. Figure out a route, and fight sieges from each waypoint. This be some COMMANDO SHIT YO

The only thing that really troubled me up until there was the ST2 mid-boss, but I saw a clip on here (I presume you BIL) knifing him to death, and much to my surprise pulled it off perfectly last time I sat down for a quick credit.

You mean the st3 midboss, the IMMORTAL DEVIL SERGEANT Allen "Bald is Badass and Beautiful" O'Neil, right? Yeah, he's a common early menacer, but a lot less harrowing than he appears. The safest tack is to stay directly overhead and downshot him... he won't be able to anti-air you. Slightly riskier is to rush in and KNOIFE FOIGHT the bastard. Jump right across the gap and have at him - only danger here is if he decides to ledge drop, which will cause him to slash while falling and decapitate you. If he does this just break off and switch to downshot.

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The ultra-smooth handling and animation make it easy to lock him down, as shown:

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^^^ That's from the Metal Slug X rematch, where it may actually be the safer tack, as he gains zako support there. In MS1 it's just you and him.

Once you've got the groove down, you can mix/match shooting and slashing:

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He's far deadlier when attacking you from above, so don't get under him unless you're showing off like this:

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Be Attitudes For Allen:
1) CMON BOY
2) GO HOME TO MOMMY
3) SEE YOU IN HELL




GAAAHAHAHAHAAAA! YOUR MINCE MEAT! Fuck, Allen rules.

[Randorama]

Isn't it "go home to YOUR mommy?" Sgt. Allen must be into "your momma" jokes, hence the specific detail (or not: is my memory faulty as always?).

Please let me stress that I have the utmost respect for the sarge. Anyone who shows up bare-chested, bearded and bal...pardon, bare-headed a gray, snowy plain to deliver brutal punishment to the heroes is a foe to be respect (I also guess that he must have a massive penis, to survive repeated beltings from one game to the other).

[Sumez]

These are the kinds of quotes you hear in their voice as you read them. There's definitely no "your" in there.

[BIL]

Definitely "Go home to mommy." Allen's an uncouth sort.

(I also guess that he must have a massive penis, to survive repeated beltings from one game to the other).

Official developer comment is that the only thing keeping him going is his "body of steel and guts" - so yeah, probably packing a nob like a baby's arm. Oh also he has to get back to his wife and son, aww!

I always connected MS3's first stage and DOJ's flyer/PS2 art, too! I figured there had to be some commonality there.

I particularly like Slugs' use of vintage Wellsian "Mars Attacks" imagery - contrasts amusingly with the oft-compared Contra's late-20th century Giger-rama.

Though outside of both being iconic sidescrolling army man games, as a diehard fan of both series, I don't think Slug and Contra play much alike at all. Slug's free contact with enemies is anathema to Contra's surgical lethality, reminding me far more of Saigo no Nindou's mass melees. And Slug's rationed special weapons, grenades and tanks absolutely scream Ikari (the POWs Guevara). Which are themselves indebted to Taito's Front Line. Hardcore shooting always comes back to Taito eventually, it seems.

[Randorama]

OK, you suckers are drawing me into too many titles I do not remember, although the names are certainly very familiar (Guevara is also known as Guerrilla War, right?).

I want to mention this, quickly: I discovered that I played Rygar and Karnov no more than 3 times in my life (!). What should I expect from them?

(Sumez, looking forward to the write-up ).

[BIL]

(Guevara is also known as Guerrilla War, right?)

Yep! Guevara in Japan, Guerilla War elsewhere, for political considerations (hey, another Contra - I mean "Super C" link! guerilla warfare is some hot potato shit!).

This goes for both the arcade version, and the absolutely superb Famicom interpretation, which IIRC was headed by the arcade's director. Either way it's a gem. Not to be associated with the depressing, anemic FC versions of Ikari and Dogosoken, by those perennial shitbirds Micronics.

I only got into AC Rygar very recently myself, it's friggin rad. Controls and handling are razor-sharp, action is blood-simple yet finessed, pace is relentless. It's the nearest I've found to the Famicom's Castlevania/Ninja Gaiden "compact action man" aesthetic in a cutthroat arcade game, and thus gets my strongest recommendation. Also one of those rare action/platformers that's interesting to play for score - gotta goad out Death Itself and stomp on its big angry head if you want them points. And also just stomp on things in general, which nets points on midbosses and also an i-framing somersault perfect for tearing into new friends!

DECAPITATION BOP

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Ironically, its own FC sequel Hachamecha Daishingeki goes for a much tamer action/RPG structure, though it still handles nicely and is good for a lazy evening.

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EDIT: Aww MAYNE, iconoclast's Metal Slug 3 st4 boss takedown is badass. With the Shotgun and 36 slugs, I think I can see a way to skip straight from Angry to Dead, with a little luck. Not that he was lucky - he got AGN straight away and replied by summarily blasting the motherfucker to kingdom come.

[Sumez]

I don't think the internet wants my Karnov 1CCs.
So after a couple of botched attempts (mainly due to missing the double T-rex boomerang kill on stage 5, and another run being interrupted halfway through) I finally managed to record a full 1CC. Died a few more times than last time (and honestly a 1LC shouldn't be hard), but I really liked the run. Turns out though, that my connection has been dropping out a lot throughout the run, so the video isn't great. I'll have to do another one it seems.
Here's my laggy, choppy recording: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/563276751



Anyway, Karnov is a genuine "guilty pleasure" for me. It's borderline kusoge - but not like the NES version which is downright trash yet still has its own genuine following.
It's a really typical late 80s arcade platformer. With a lot of fun and original setpieces, and a design that pretty much requires the player to know the stages and bosses ahead of time.
An immediate comparison would be Toki (and I'm almost 100% certain this was made by largely the same people), but Karnov is mush harsher in this regard, pretty much punishing any attempt to improvise through the game with its absurdly illogical hitboxes (Konami would be envious) and absolutely devious enemy behavior patterns.

There's a good example right on the first stage. After having made it through two other stone thrower enemies (stationary guys that occasionally throw a boulder, which can be shot down or jumped over), a red one appears on an elevated platform. Knowing at this point that it's better to get rid of these guys before they try to make life difficult for you, the intuitive reaction would be to jump up and fire a ton of quick shots at him from a distance. The reaction of this enemy however, is to return fire for every single hit that connects with him, and the arcade version of Karnov has an absurdly high object limit, resulting in a seemingly endless volley of interconnected boulders going you way - certain to kill off any newbie player as well as the occasional experienced player who accidentally let their guard down.
This design really describes the entire game. Know what's coming up, or die in one hit. The only exception is the weirdly casual penultimate stage which is a lot easier than even the first one.

I think it's also what makes the game so appealing though. Overcoming obstacles that seem almost absurd at first, and you do have a pretty nice inventory of strange items at your disposal, most obviously the ladder which will allow Karnov to reach even more off-screen secrets as well as alternative routes through the stage, which there are usually quite a few of.
Overall I think it's an incredibly entertaining late 80s arcade standard bearer, that while being a tangent to the entertaining side of kusoge also feels really good to play.
And it's another pretty easy 1CC for my collection.
I think Metal Slug is up next.

[BulletMagnet]

I don't think the internet wants my Karnov 1CCs.

I find that hard to believe when they casually elicit the phrase "double T-rex boomerang kill"; if that's not destined to go viral I don't know what is.

[BIL]

Superb 1CC reportage! Never encountered this one BITD, arcade or NES. I only know Karnov from beating up him and his lame palette-swaps in Bad Dudes. He has more than a few other DECO cameos besides. Fighter's History ofc, also Trio The Punch: NEVAR 4GET ME is fairly infamous. What an oddly emblematic character.

[Randorama]

TumblePop and perhaps Diet GO GO (or however you spell them)?

Both should feature the almighty Comrade Chelnov, too (and here we are in definite kusoge territory...).

I also played again Wonder Boy III and Act Fancer (etc.: Data East post-apocalyptic platformer). I cannot figure out what to think about the first one, after all these decades or so, and I like the style but not the system of the second one. Thoughts?


Factoid #4.A:

While Guevara is...well, a game that lets you unleash communist punishment on the enemy (!), Chelnov is more or less the opposite (Chernobyl worker becomes super-powered freak and fights to reach Ammerika, or something). Somehow, though, my uncle assimilated both games to clear examples of programmers being in favour of a Glorious Soviet Turn in the ArKade. He would always say that Tetris was Breznev's favourite game Komrade Bill, do you happen to know if there are any mechanics differences between the various versions (AC)?

I wish that I could remember all the games that he saw as politically charged or, even better, that I would have recorded his Kevin Smith-esque monologues on random shit and games. When he bought Bad Dudes and saw the intro for the first time ("the bad dudes have kidnapped Ronnie" or whatever it was), he spent 2 weeks or so getting cramps for the excessive laughing. He never even remotely cared about political issues, which is possibly the reason why his random musings on this topic were so hilarious (don't even get me started on Taito's Rambo...).

[bottino]

Incidentally, have you played AKI's N64 wrestling games? Like a lot of sports (or "sports" ) series, they went through many iterations, bewildering on paper... but basically, all you need is the superlative Virtual Pro Wrestling 2. (and a translation FAQ, easily found on GameFAQs - the game enjoys a hardcore fan following to this day) Explosive, incendiary, barely-controllable burning ardour within! plus marginally more coherent details (CTRL+F "Human")

Mentioning, as it totally captures those classic Technos dynamics of timing, spacing, and hard-earned god-almighty knockouts. The wrasslin' format puts it more in Kunio's sports/action sphere, but just like those games, the engine could easily support a dedicated brawler. Sadly the CPU is pretty dumb 1v1 - just like Kunio's sportsballers, they're alright in battle royales, but you need company to see the game's real excellence.

It's genuinely one of the best syntheses I've ever seen of party/hardcore brawling... a snap to pick up, but if a noob takes on a vet, the only snap is gonna be accompanied by a frenzied tapout. (ah man, that *crack* "YEARGH!" submission sample is arcade Golden Axe-haunting. Can support raucous battle royales, bitter 1v1 bloodbaths and anything between.

AKI were a splinter group from Human Entertainment, creators of the similarly acclaimed Fire Pro series (and Super Stylish SFC Seek/Destroy TEH FIREMEN ). It wouldn't surprise me if these guys were fans of (or even worked on) the Technos beatdown that predates even Kunio, Exciting Hour aka Mat Mania. Either way, they are hardcore, and so is VPW2!

Color me surprised, never imagined that something like this existed out there - especially on the N64! Much appreciated, BIL.

EVEN NINJA APPROVES OF THIS BONE-CRUSHING WRASSLIN (・｀W´・)

Spoiler

Well, that settles it then

Regarding The Firemen series, the SFC original is the best one, right? My experience with these games stems mostly from the second game, Pete & Danny, for the PSX; fun co-op experience, which the first one apparently lacks, but outside of that I've read that the OG Firemen is a much better game in all regards.

[BIL]

While Guevara is...well, a game that lets you unleash communist punishment on the enemy (!), Chelnov is more or less the opposite (Chernobyl worker becomes super-powered freak and fights to reach Ammerika, or something). Somehow, though, my uncle assimilated both games to clear examples of programmers being in favour of a Glorious Soviet Turn in the ArKade.

DECO had the best MURICAAA in the biz, imo. They seemed especially infatuated with the NYC skyline.

Spoiler

Apropos BGM













Aww yeah, Mr. WARWOLF bringin' the Carter administration back with his aggressively bristling crotch.

To say nothing of their Army Man trilogy (Heavy Barrel, Bloody Wolf and THUNDER ZONE). Midnight Resistance has the tank tops and bandannas cred but gets a bit sci-fi for my liking. When it comes to the Reaganomic Scrolling Action, alien overlords got nothing on ambiguously third-world dictators and their goons! Speaking of:

Komrade Bill, do you happen to know if there are any mechanics differences between the various versions (AC)?

TBH I'm a relative latecomer to AC Guevara - far more familiar with the FC conversion. It's getting an Arcade Archives release soon, so having cleared Ikari and Dogosoken, I'm planning on nailing it too. Supposed to be hard as hell according to GaijinPunch, who's cleared the already grueling Dogo, so I'm excited to give it a serious go!

I remember GP mentioning a doujin superplay DVD that included no-misses of both arcade and Famicom Guevaras, speaking to the regard the latter is held in. In the best traditions of the console (see also Contra and Double Dragon II), it's more of a loose interpretation than "home port." Rather than attempt a compromised imitation of the arcade's rotary stick action, it simplifies the shooting, then cranks the pace way up. I'm not sure if it's viable for score play, but the aesthetic and stage designs are so respectively vibrant, I always try to avoid killing POWs. Fiendishly easy to do collateral damage, with the devious enemy arrangements and your rip-roaring firepower.

It's a great twist, a combination of furious shredding and surgical precision I've rarely seen elsewhere. Recently attempted a co-op nomiss with a friend (2P = Castro ), who lost his patience with a shameless human shield line and stormed in, killing all the POWs, all the enemies, and then himself, via landmine.

I wonder what SNK's problem was with allowing Ikari named sequels. Dogosoken is an astute followup, boosting the carnage to gorenographic extremes before introducing a novel vision of Gun vs Sword. "Introducing" is perhaps a bit mild - you must study the blade or perish!

HESITATION IS DEFEAT but still use your fuckin loaf yeah (｀ω´メ)

Spoiler

Guevara, meanwhile, is undeniably Ikari III. The game given that title instead, whether one loves or hates its brawling, has nothing in common with the preceding trilogy of tactical creeping death. (I guess I understand Dogo's naming, with it coming out the very same year as Ikari)

On that subject, Ikari III's Famicom conversion is quite excellent too. Again, turns up the pace and enemy numbers... rather than a handful of hardcases, you're smashing through swathes of noobs (and the odd hardcase). It's not quite as good as Guevara, but I would argue topdown brawling is an innately shakier prospect than the time-honed blastathon. For the love of god, anyone thinking of playing it, learn my st2 midboss speedkill! He sucks but is eminently skippable.

To conclude this examination of preposterously manful SNK Army 'Em Ups brought from arcade to FC: Datsugoku (which just came out on ACA this week). The FC conversion (I'm pretty sure these carts shared dev teams, or at least key personnel) is more developed than the one-note "jump kick 'em up" PCB, but ultimately trails behind Guevara and Ikari III. Technos's sublimely well-judged FC Double Dragon II blows it out of the water (as it does a lot of beltscrollers, for FC or otherwise)

Color me surprised, never imagined that something like this existed out there - especially on the N64! Much appreciated, BIL.

Always glad to get the word out on these games - they're also some of the best uses for an N64 directional pad! (only thing you use the stick for here is rotating your model in Create-A-Wrestler, and more importantly taunting - which buffs your Spirit Meter. gotta play to the crowd to really whoop ass!)

Regarding The Firemen series, the SFC original is the best one, right? My experience with these games stems mostly from the second game, Pete & Danny, for the PSX; fun co-op experience, which the first one apparently lacks, but outside of that I've read that the OG Firemen is a much better game in all regards.

I've always heard similar - I actually played the PS1 sequel first, briefly, before moving to the SFC one. Still need to go back and finish it. As for the SFC game, barring a small caveat for the slightly tight camera (which the design generally caters for), I highly recommend it. Classic arcadey seek/destroy with a compulsive time attack element. For the love of god though, note that you don't need to clear all the small "grass" fire for a 100% rating. That would suck! It's just the badass growly stuff that can kill you that needs dousing.

[Licorice]

For whatever reason (actually it started due to a private conversation here), I've decided to become more knowledgeable of gaming firsts and genre development histories

To that end, I have a question. What was the first side scrolling action platformer (not shooter). What is the origin of the genre after which this thread is named?

So:

• 1. XZ (or "side") view
  2. Scrolls at least horizontally, although it can scroll vertically or flip vertically too.
  3. You can't shoot by default (but may with a power up of some kind).
  4. But you can strike by default.
  5. At some point, you must jump in order to progress.

So far, I have Legend of Kage as the first. Seems a bit late though. Also, I'm not sure of the date of Kage, some places I read October 1985, others I read 1984 (unspecified month). If 1984, very likely to be the very first.

[WelshMegalodon]

I don't know if there is any single game that can tick all of those boxes other than Kage and the obvious Super Mario Bros, but there were several titles with the same general idea like Pac-Land, Dragon Buster, and Jump Bug. All of those predate Kage. Many people would also be quick to point to titles like Pitfall!, Donkey Kong, Chuckie Egg, Miner 2049er, Jungle Hunt, and B. C.'s Quest for Tires as other early influences on the genre.

[Sumez]

Ghosts n Goblins? I'm sure there are older examples, but everything I can find points to kage being 1985.

The others mentioned feel more like pure platformers to me...

[kitten]

re: the deco talk, i got to play an actual heavy barrel cab while visiting a friend and her wife in kansas city, last week. weird cab! you have to actually rotate the stick to change aiming direction, and it... kind of works?

[GSK]

That's commonly known as a loop lever, and that specific lever is a Seimitsu LS-30: SNK made around 10 games that use it, DECO used it for a few games, etc. There was also a later optical rotary stick that SNK used for their football games, and I think Caliber .50 by SETA used that same stick rather than the LS-30.

All of SNK's LS-30 games (plus Time Soldiers which is technically an Alpha Denshi game, as well as the NES/FC ports in most cases) are included in SNK 40th Anniversary Collection and they're slowly showing up piecemeal on Arcade Archives as well. You can also buy Heavy Barrel on Switch via Johnny Turbo's Arcade but I'd advise against it.

Ikari's director alleged Heavy Barrel was a literal Ikari hack and I'd certainly believe it.

[BrianC]

Not sure about the JP version, but the US Forgotten Worlds used a rotary knob for aiming, not a rotary stick. The knob also pressed down like a button.

Edit: Lost Worlds JP also uses the optical rotary knob.

[Randorama]

Quick post before CoVID-19 comes and snatches my sorry ass:

BIRU, well yes, DECO had a thing for the good ol' US of A. The coolest game on Earth, Crude Buster, might be a bit relevant to this topic, but I'd add the RoboCop titles also carried this vibe. I also forgot about the other titles you mention, and I would add that Nitro Ball is half Reaganomics, half Howard Chaykin's Flagg!, and all glorious late '80s/early '90s glorious style.

Re: Guevara (*switches to Kommunist mode*). OK, may I ask you to remind me what the Ikari series amounts to? I recall that you (or someone else?) dissected the games in detail, and rather than asking you a rehearse, I am wondering if you could link me to the discussion again.

I did try Ernesto's game yesterday (after risking arrest, see the other already embarassing thread), and it clearly is irrationally hard, but perversely fun. Should I buy a few pints* of Valium before trying the FC version and (gasp!) the other Ikari's?

Ah, tank tops and proper manhood fighting, etc. Do we have discussions about Thunder Fox in the index? It has been years but the 1-LC may be coming from yours truly. Where should I orderly and politely spam my 2 bitcoin cents?










*Litres, gallons, etc.: screw standard measurement systems, Liquids Are Measured by The Units That Matter.

[GSK]

Not sure about the JP version, but the US Forgotten Worlds used a rotary knob for aiming, not a rotary stick. The knob also pressed down like a button.

Edit: Lost Worlds JP also uses the optical rotary knob.

Yeah you're right, I conflated that with the loop lever games, emulation on the mind and all.