Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[kitten]

^ finished blazing through hagane shortly after that post! wow, what a goddamn game! man, i had been so on the fence for this one for ages and am incredibly glad i nabbed it complete, as if i'd gotten it loose i'd be sorely upset, right now. both the game & box art deserve it.

i am kind of agog at how good it is! this might even be my new favorite ninja action game (be very clear i mentally catalogue TNWA as beat 'em up adjacent and more its own thing - it's definitely still my favorite action game with ninjas), to be completely honest. the initial roughness seriously begins to melt and you're left with a blisteringly hot, immensely fast-paced ride through some hauntingly gorgeous and anachronistically wild version of industrialized japan. the game even has a genuine sense of theater, and i'd call a lot of its scene transitions truly cinematic!

there's a few slightly rough patches, but pretty much nothing some quality play doesn't work the kinks out of. i can feel my opinion of the sfc's action library rising with this game, alone, and am so happy i got it. my only big complaint at the moment is that it loops... BUT the difficulty increase is just giving everything 2x health and making the game more tedious in the process. what a waste!!

i had to continue once on my successful run, but this is quite frankly an easy 1cc (lots of 1ups and easy recovery points) and much more suited for a nomiss. i am very excited to give this one some more time, soon.

- - - - - - - - - -

edit:

between cooking day-after-christmas breakfast for the family, i decided to look up some info on the people behind hagane (other than the character designer, who i already knew did designs for zeiram, kamen rider, etc.).

noticed it was a joint production between CA production and red, who i think were both hudson subsidiaries. i know that red was famously made up of some ex technosoft staffers, and at least 3 people who appeared on both TFII and III's credits roll appear on this game. red seemed big enough that some of their games didn't share but the most ancillary staff, so i've historically had a hard time pegging down their general quality because of that. some of their stuff has good production value, but plays poorly - i just can't understand people's affection for bonk, even as the pc engine becomes one of my favorite consoles of all-time.

the biggest concentration of shared staff is 6 names with kishin doji zenki: battle raiden (entire done by CA production), which i'd kind of written off as a mediocre-looking licensed game. is it actually good? has anyone here given it a shot? it's piss cheap on yahoo and i'm tossing it in this shipment, regardless, but i'd be curious if anyone else here has experienced it and what they'd have to say. there's also 5 names shared with sapphire, which i've been unable to burn a copy to give a test run to. does anyone have advice on burning this game? me and a friend have tried two different ISO's and neither will work on my pce, even though i've got the arcade card (and i know the arcade card works, because i've got a copy of mad stalker). is it really that good, or is it just super flashy? i'm not one to emulate/burn/pirate often, but this one demands such a price that i'm wanting to give it at least a couple credits before i even consider saving up for something like that.

the saddest thing about looking at the shared staff for this game was that 3 people went on to be credited on nearly every mario party game.
that's just sad

[Stevens]

So I play a fair amount of board games and was introduced to Colt Express about a year ago. I loved it. Easy to grasp rules, nice components and characters with personality. Best of all the game is pretty quick - not a huge fan of table tops that run passed 90 minutes.

Anyways - it is basically Sunset Riders - the board game.

After being gifted Colt Express this Christmas I have been playing Sunset Riders. Which is still crazy fun and far easier than little me remembers it being.

[drauch]

Kishin Douji Zenki: Battle Raiden is super rad. You've got a healthy moveset and the environs/enemies are top notch spooky fare. Zenki himself handles a bit slow, but it plays well. I know BIL is also a fan, so I'll let him sum it up more technically.

Speaking of Keita Amemiya design and ninjas, is Mirai Ninja worth a shot? I love the movie and often forget there's a game until moments like this. Watching some videos on the Tube I can't tell if it's a stinker or not.

[BIL]

Kishin Douji Zenki: Battle Raiden is super rad. You've got a healthy moveset and the environs/enemies are top notch spooky fare. Zenki himself handles a bit slow, but it plays well. I know BIL is also a fan, so I'll let him sum it up more technically.

Sankyuu!

the biggest concentration of shared staff is 6 names with kishin doji zenki: battle raiden (entire done by CA production), which i'd kind of written off as a mediocre-looking licensed game.

I did too, initially, many years ago. I was wrong!

is it actually good?

It's definitely good, at the bare minimum - and beyond the solid basics, it has a very unique strength in Big Zenki, who you spend most of the game as. Basically like playing a sidescrolling action/platformer as Rugal or Goenitz. His walk cycle is imperious and his brash moves lay waste to chumps. The closest I've seen to this platformer/brawler elsewhere are the mediocre Battle Zeque Den, and the excellent X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse, whose more traditional characters still don't give that sense of striding around smacking plebs in the mouth while sneering insults in booming Japanese.

Chibi Zenki gets less screentime, but his handful of more Hagane-esque stages are generally very good. The truly excellent petrified forest gets the HG101 seal of approval, even! (you will of course autotranslate the reviewer's "TOO HARD, RUN AWAY, AIEEEE!" to "this is reasonably substantial level design!")

I only wish the second loop was instantly accessible... the first is okay but decidedly easy, with the game's nicely technical handling picking up the slack. Second is actually an improvement on Hagane's quickie parameter tweak (which is still better than it might've been, admittedly - stubbornly tough zako force you to exploit the offensive+evasive suites to the full). Zenki's adds some nice extra spawns while very wisely leaving the parameters untouched, so you don't lose any of BZ's awesome presence. You may have had more friends this time around, Werewolf Mechsuit Guy, but as you're learning in your last dying moments, your face was no less prone to shattering beneath my fist!

has anyone here given it a shot? it's piss cheap on yahoo and i'm tossing it in this shipment, regardless, but i'd be curious if anyone else here has experienced it and what they'd have to say.

None other than Perikles turned me onto this one, some years back. Was a nice cheap pickup then too, I'd nab it without hesitation.

Here's a quick demo video of the second stage, which will become a slog if the base moveset is relied upon. Instead you should boss it up and, yes, smack chumps in the mouth with your Tornado Upper and Raijinken. CRITICAL INFO: hold [attack] while moving around, and you'll start revving up the ol' high-voltage knuckle sammich the instant you stop! But sometimes you'll want to hit [attack] first, to stun the target. As said, despite the relative survival ease, the handling is quite technically satisfying.

sapphire, which i've been unable to burn a copy to give a test run to. does anyone have advice on burning this game? me and a friend have tried two different ISO's and neither will work on my pce, even though i've got the arcade card (and i know the arcade card works, because i've got a copy of mad stalker). is it really that good, or is it just super flashy?

I've yet to try it myself, but Perikles and Kino are both fans - interest from either will instantly get a shooter on my radar, to say nothing of both. See the game's highscore thread.

[Sumez]

I agree with almost everything Durandal has to say about Ninja Gaiden! Such a beautiful post.
Someone really needs to compile a write-up of every great thing said about the game in this thread!

That said, I'd be lying if I said the game was completely fair, which is not the case with some of the bats whose spawn point is placed right in the middle of the jumping trajectory between platforms of the average unaware player. Certain spawn points feel like they're just rubbing it in if you even dare to take a single step backwards.

People have already pointed out how the bat spawns are never directly unfair, so I won't go into that. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to call Ninja Gaiden 100% completely fair. Everything is predictable and telegraphed, and the only real RNG is the hammer brothers, leaving a tiny unfair gap with a potential rare, random forced knockback into a pit on stage 2 - but only if you don't have a subweapon, which you should.

cutscenes which are very well done, especially for a NES game... because you can skip them with no fuss.

<3
I can appreciate how much work went into the cutscenes, but I'll be honest and say I don't care about them at all, with exception of the intermission of watching the castle from the distance (such a classic!).
People always praise the cut-scenes as one of the best attributes of the game, and you managed to point out the single best thing about them, and the only quality I can agree on - they are all instantly skippable.

You can suicide at the last area (before the bosses) to spawn with a fresh life bar (if you have a life in stock, of course), assuming you can get through that same area without taking much damage (how much life you have remaining, is how much you'll have against the boss).
The throwback to 6-1 is definitely hard to stomach at first, but I think, in a way, it's free practice for the entirety of Act 6, if you're going for the 1CC/1LC.

No need to suicide. There's a full life potion in the final area - you just need to get past the final row of enemies (which can be a little tough) without taking a hit. And if you happen to fail miserably, you can backtrack to the previous room to respawn the potion. (that works with 1ups too though, if you are a complete chump!)

[Sumez]

Re: Both Zenki and Hagane

Man, both are games that have been sitting in my collection for years (got Hagane for around $15, so it must have been a while ago) - it hurts to think about how many great games I already own, just waiting for me.

[BIL]

The best testament to NG here is that the one guy who hates it is also an infamous lunatic known for writing My Little Pony fanfics where his self-insert totally owns his internet foes.

I got a NOS Hagane for relatively cheap too, around 2010... I'd always heard praise for it from people I trust, and the SFC boxart was too goddamn good to pass up. Glad I nabbed it then, for obvious reasons.

[kitten]

His walk cycle is imperious and his brash moves lay waste to chumps. The closest I've seen to this platformer/brawler elsewhere are the mediocre Battle Zeque Den, and the excellent X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse, whose more traditional characters still don't give that sense of striding around smacking plebs in the mouth while sneering insults in booming Japanese.

i think the big reason i had kept discounting this one was because i kept remembering it as battle zeque den, which a friend of mine just recently played and assured me was awful. something about the titles and large character sprites were just similar enough to have them run together in my head, i guess! i skipped around a longplay of mutant apocalypse, and it looks significantly better than war of the gems, which i referred to disliking fairly strongly ages ago. it's cheap enough that i'm thinking about picking it up.

Chibi Zenki gets less screentime, but his handful of more Hagane-esque stages are generally very good. The truly excellent petrified forest gets the HG101 seal of approval, even! (you will of course autotranslate the reviewer's "TOO HARD, RUN AWAY, AIEEEE!" to "this is reasonably substantial level design!")

speaking of the hg101 review -

Spoiler

god damn that is tone deaf :[ i don't even need to play the game to know it's outright mean to compare it to fucking xardion. i had the misfortune of playing that one this summer, and i knew something was seriously amiss when i had to look up how to delete the save file on the cart that automatically loaded on boot-up. let's check my review!

Spoiler

hg101 has a comically absurd slant toward action games with rpg elements and non-linear elements no matter how bad they are (grinding mindlessly is always better than learning to play a game, right?), and this happens to have a bit of both. there's some pretty art by a couple of anime mecha veterans, but that's about all this game has going for it. i swear that seeing asmik-kun on a game's label deserves to be almost as foreboding as seeing that LJN rainbow.

Here's a quick demo video of the second stage, which will become a slog if the base moveset is relied upon. Instead you should boss it up and, yes, smack chumps in the mouth with your Tornado Upper and Raijinken. CRITICAL INFO: hold [attack] while moving around, and you'll start revving up the ol' high-voltage knuckle sammich the instant you stop! But sometimes you'll want to hit [attack] first, to stun the target. As said, despite the relative survival ease, the handling is quite technically satisfying.

video's much appreciated! this game's moveset looks satisfyingly complex, and after finding much to get out of hagane, i'm sure i'll be willing to give it the full chance it deserves, even if first impressions aren't too hot. advice on sticking it out for the 2nd loop is appreciated, as well.

i'm not sure if i'll bother with hagane's 2nd loop after giving it a nomiss - what little i played just made the enemies' health seem like a frustrating change, more than anything. didn't stick it out to see if this change affected bosses, too, but i don't think i'll enjoy a wrench thrown into this game's incredibly tight pacing. i'd have been absolutely down for the loop adding more enemies or possibly more devious patterns, but this seems like a last-second kind of thing just tacked on as a bonus.

I've yet to try it myself, but Perikles and Kino are both fans - interest from either will instantly get a shooter on my radar, to say nothing of both. See the game's highscore thread.

i really want to give it a couple of credits to see for myself, but i have no idea what i was doing to burn it wrong. tried a great deal of pce cd games before buying them, never had a burn go bad.

[BIL]

didn't stick it out to see if this change affected bosses

Weirdly, and even more suggestive of a last-second tweak, it doesn't. Bosses play out exactly the same.

So the loop's hard bits are the occasional enemy rushes, where you'll inevitably be on the run as the crowd accumulates. With the character's extreme maneuverability and the lack of body collision on humanoid enemies, I kinda like the effect... you end up bouncing, flipping and sliding all over the room with a slowly-dwindling mob furiously trying to swat you. Less an engine of vengeful destruction, more Bugs Bunny vs Elmer Fudd.

Most definitely not ideal, but I'd still like to finish it off at some point. Wayyy to the back of the back burner though. Been absolutely years, made it to the last stage's door maze before calling it a day. I just like knowing it's there tbh.

[kitten]

it not affecting bosses actually makes it sound a little bit more appealing, frankly. the bosses are fine as they are, it could do a few interesting changes on the run just to see how you're forced to avoid or handle a select few situations.

[BIL]

Oh yeah, totally forgot - have you played CA Production's Bulk Slash (Saturn)? Arcade-styled third person mech action, basically. The short, timed missions are mostly classic arena seek/destroy, with the occasional base defense; the latter are just as pick up/play as the blastier stuff. The transforming mech handles superbly well, with switching between walker and jet a seamless snap. You'll want to switch frequently, too! The jet form is exhilarating unbound by gravity - perfect for zooming into prime position, transforming to wreak havoc with the sword and grenades, then jetting off to the next target. The arena design is one of those happy results of hardware limitation - roomy enough to give a sense of scale, yet tightly focused on classic arcadey destruction.

The poly/sprite graphical mesh is naturally a bit dog-eared, but the performance is impressively smooth - missile trails from the player and enemies alike can fill the sky to no cost. Aesthetically the joyously cheesy synth-metal OST compensates hugely for the militantly functional polys (as do the hyperactive anime girl co-pilots - their antics won't be to everyone's taste, but tbh I find the evocation of early-90s anime kinda charming, ala Rondo). Won't make you stop wishing for a 32-bit Hagane followup, but it's a very solid action game to have around. I think of it as the Saturn equivalent to the PS1's similarly no-nonsense Silent Bomber.

(anyone reading this thread who's not played Silent Bomber should do so right the fuck now - you won't be disappointed. Might technically be polygonal, but it plays like 110% hardcore topdown action, and the sheer violence of its explosions remains gratifying to this day)

Bulk Slash's original print's manual used an apparently unique gloss effect, which tends to become adhered to the jewel case. The Satakore reprint's foldout has no such tomfoolery, and is cheaper, so I just went with that. Frankly I was a bit creeped out at what that shit might do to a disc, if sealed (or what it might pick up, if not). Brr!

EDIT: oh, hey... seems CA Production also did The Sky Odyssey (PS2). That's another very cool game! Way outside this thread's scope, but if you like Pilotwings and other similarly arcadey flight sims, it's worth checking out for sure. I nabbed a JP copy some years back but the amount of text might make the Western releases preferable.

[kitten]

i had bulk slash on the list of saturn games i was looking at that i lost a while ago - time to add it back on! i thought it looked really neat & straightforward. i have a big fondness for that generation's low poly design and it contains a few of my most visually loved games. i kind of wear that on my sleeve with my signature, though :B

also been meaning to pick up silent bomber, as well. i was recommended to play this ages ago when it was pennies and figured i'd get it down the line, but the cheapest eBay listing for an NTSC-U copy is now... 90 fucking dollars!? criminy. the cheapest complete copy to sell in the last 3 months was $80, too. i got to play this one very briefly when my friend visited - he brought like 30 obscure ps1 games for me to give a shot to, most of them awful and to get a laugh out of me, a few of them stuff i was genuinely interested in. this one immediately felt good enough to be something to pick up, but alas, that's when i noticed the price. is this a game that needs the dialogue? the jp version is significantly cheaper.

aaaaaand only heard of sky odyssey when skipping around that hg101 article, though it's possible i've also had it recommended before that. the guy in the article was talking it up, which struck me as not necessarily meaning anything good. i have long, long since learned that a recommendation from hg101 isn't exactly valuable. i wonder if this would be a fun companion to finally getting into the ace combat series.

your recommendations are quite good, and even if i don't agree, help me establish a deeper frame of reference for how genuine action enthusiasts feel about a game. you've already turned me on to several great titles and one truly excellent, top 10 one, so i appreciate it a lot! i mean, really and sincerely though, i do.

i hope that i'm, in turn, recommending some people on here some good stuff

[BIL]

is this a game that needs the dialogue? the jp version is significantly cheaper.

JP's a safe bet. The English dub does have a bit of MST3K magic ("Now I'm just the shell of a man... nothing more than a killing machine!" ), but nothing important. Most missions are either "go from A to B" or "destroy X amount of Y," both of which are represented with onscreen prompts. The rare ally defense missions are pretty self-explanatory, too... it's the sort of action game where printing out the most basic of FAQs will do.

The Western versions also seem to add an annoying crash bug that randomly hangs the game after a late, tough boss - I've never seen it happen in JP.

Not surprised to hear it crept up in price a bit, it was quite the cult hit at release! Deservedly so, too.

[kitten]

i'll go for a cheap jp copy then, thanks!

[Vanguard]

in the US version, the damage goes as such: normal attack 2hp, jumping kick 3hp, special attack 4hp. most basic enemies have 4hp, so it makes the fact the jumping attack does more only noticeable on some specific enemies with beefy health. i thought something was weird about how many hits the jumping snowbots would take when i mixed up specials, normals, and jump kicks on them, so it led me to looking it up and noticing the weird numbers.

some of the (even the most common) iterations of the basic enemy will occasionally punch you out of the air when you go at them with a jump kick (they'll be ready for it if you've been in their lane too long), so i'd say the special attack, especially with its added mid-air reverse of direction, would still remain pretty useful in the fc version for the majority of stages. a lot of the bosses quite frankly have too much HP and the kick being upgraded would go really far in making them feel less tedious.

the fc version is very obviously the easier 1cc, but even with the lowered difficulty, it might be the more enjoyable of the two versions. that is, if you don't miss the pizza hut shilling. i don't know if i'd still call the game mindless, there's some strategy to zoning and prioritizing you don't see in beat 'em ups i'd give that label, but it's definitely really repetitive. fc version might mitigate that a bit with fewer enemies in the long hordes & the kick's upgrade.

Oh yeah, it's coming back to me now. The jump kick is pretty safe, but the special is the god move. That game used to be one of my favorites but I haven't played it for like 20 years. Maybe it's time for a revisit (once TRP-STGT 2017 ends). I'll try to find a good way to deal with Krang while I'm at it. My faint memories tell me that the best way is to barely clip him with a jump kick so you land outside of his counterattack range, but as I said, it has been some time.

[BurlyHeart]

Always feels I'm interrupting a great discussion about some 8 bit classic I've never played, but I've nowhere else to share these thoughts. So please forgive me as I write about my PS3 experiences..

Credit-fed my way through Gunstar Heroes and had a blast. I look forward to picking it up again in the future for a 1cc attempt, which certainly seems doable. The game has that fun factor, that certain something Nintendo often churn out, even though it was on the Mega Drive.

Dabbled in the first Contra on my PS4 (Arcade Classics), and it's another I shall return to in an attempt for a 1cc. Uprising was my first (!?) Contra game, and it's interesting experiencing the first in the series to the last so close together. I hope to delve into a few in between soon, starting with Hard Corps, which looks amazing.

A few shmups are up next, with Double Dragon Neon and possibly Scott Pilgrim the next scrolling action games to visit.

[BIL]

Always feels I'm interrupting a great discussion about some 8 bit classic I've never played, but I've nowhere else to share these thoughts. So please forgive me as I write about my PS3 experiences..

There is nothing to forgive, dear sir! Always glad to hear about newer stuff ITT. Knowing me, by the time I get around to it, it won't be new anymore! I told myself I'd quit spending all my free time digging about the old games bin like three years ago, haha.

[kitten]

Uprising was my first (!?) Contra game, and it's interesting experiencing the first in the series to the last so close together. I hope to delve into a few in between soon, starting with Hard Corps, which looks amazing.

i would not consider uprising a contra game: i like to imagine that they left it out of the title in shame. even if you think it's good, it's really, really not contra. even forgetting aesthetics, the game's basic mechanics and pacing are not remotely in line with the series.

if you're new to the series, i'd say the highlights are the two fc/nes games (the fc version of the original has some unique stuff over the nes version, keep that in mind), hard corps, shattered soldier, aaaand contra 3, even though two of its six stages are gimmicky top-down stages that frankly could have been cut. i want to hesitantly recommend 4, as i have very fond memories of it, but have found almost everything else by wayforward disappointing to the point i'm thinking i need to give it a solid reevaluation. rebirth is a bit compact and silly and neo contra is just purely outrageous, but those are both pretty good, too, if not quite up the series' usual par. operation c on the game boy is worth playing, as well! not too big on the original two arcade games, though they have their merits. i've at least 1cc'd each of these, and done nomisses on most, if the frame of reference is important.

i consider contra to be my favorite gaming series, tbh.

- - - - - - - - - -

my next run of hagane after my first clear mentioned several posts back was a 1cc with only one embarrassing death early on in the autoscrolling segment in 1-4. i've done a few nomiss runs since, but i need to actually record one! man, this game has a really, really high performance ceiling. lots of flashy and impressive stuff you can do, and each run i do feels like i'm not quite doing the game proper justice. i'll probably still record one soon, anyway, but there's almost always fat to trim in this game. i screwed around with the second loop, but i definitely don't like it. got up to 5-3 (that boss that shoot words - was out of grenades, which you need for him, and panicked) and then lost my last life on my credit - it's very doable, but enemies are so chunky you just want to skip past most of them, otherwise it shoots the pacing. and if you're skipping everything, the game isn't nearly as fun.

[BIL]

if you're new to the series, i'd say the highlights are the two fc/nes games (the fc version of the original has some unique stuff over the nes version, keep that in mind), hard corps, shattered soldier, aaaand contra 3, even though two of its six stages are gimmicky top-down stages that frankly could have been cut.

Aesthetically, SFC Mode 7 wankery rarely ages gracefully... but ignoring that, I don't consider either of those stages gimmicky in the least. They're classic topdown seek/destroy ala Namco's Assault, and just like there, the rotary viewpoint is integral to creating a 360' threat from randomly-spawning enemies. Mechanically they're just as airtight as the main stages - none of the questionable float that hampers, say, Axelay's vert stages.

They're also entirely in keeping with the series' now-traditional two alternate POV stages per game, and they're both over as quickly as the previous two's (easily quicker, with experience). I think it's pretty neat how they leveraged the SFC hardware to create a third unique subgame, honestly. The worst I would say is that they're Assault ripoffs, but frankly the world could use more of those.

Of the Japan-developed games, it's actually Hard Corps I consider marred by gimmickry and in need of editing. Nakazato has stated he wanted to create replay value with the alternate routes full of unique content, which does work in the short term... long-term, you've got to play it multiple times per sitting to see all the best stuff, and each time you've got to sit through that tepid Jungle stage and its atrociously long-winded boss. As much as I love that game, I will always regret them not just deploying its fantastic better content* in one hellacious course, and letting the four characters provide replay instead.

Admittedly, I'm sure Nakazato did the right thing from the mainstream's POV. Which sucks, as usual, but a man's gotta eat.

*and tightening up its rare but stinging duds. The Jungle Boss and st1 Cyclops obviously, but also Research Center's opening clanger that makes me resort to stuff like this:

Spoiler

The player should never, ever be compelled to hold back to give enemies a fighting chance in Contra! (do try it though, it's fun!)

my next run of hagane after my first clear mentioned several posts back was a 1cc with only one embarrassing death early on in the autoscrolling segment in 1-4. i've done a few nomiss runs since, but i need to actually record one! man, this game has a really, really high performance ceiling. lots of flashy and impressive stuff you can do, and each run i do feels like i'm not quite doing the game proper justice. i'll probably still record one soon, anyway, but there's almost always fat to trim in this game.

Recording stuff like Hagane (extreme performance potential, little penalty for failure beyond style points) drives my perfectionism nuts. I find it a lot easier to deal with meaner performance sidescrollers like Super Shinobi, Vampire Kiler and Alien Soldier that'll outright cripple you for screwing up. In a way Hagane's the ultimate performative sidescrolling stage.

[kitten]

i agree with your criticisms of hard corps, but generally find the presentation enough to fill the holes. i still just can't get behind the overhead stages in contra 3, though, they're one of my most disliked things about the game. the stages feel inconsequentially simple & easy and the bosses mostly feel like a pain, plus it really takes me out of the rest of the game. the big sticking point is probably that they're slightly open, and i prefer things to stick to being entirely straight-forward and linear. i've also got a bit a disdain for the weapon switching having inadvertently become such a predominant part of competent play and a few of the bosses always catching me off-guard on casual replays. feel like i've always gotta sit down and devote a bit to get back up to speed, and that puts me off going back to it as much as some of the others. the fc/nes game will always be my favorite for sheer ease-of-access, even if it's quite easy.

i still consider it a great game, mind you, and i don't think my picking points invalidate what you see or appreciate in it. it has a more addictively tight performance threshold & demand than hard corps or most of the rest of the series, honestly, but i've come to prioritize that a bit less in my favorite games. i probably differ a fair bit from the forum consensus on my proclivities in this regard, but i'm definitely still much further off from the likes of hg101.

- -

re: hagane, have you ever watched any of the speedruns? one of few games i would say is worth watching those for, as it's incredibly performance intensive. a lot of the encounters end up getting skipped entirely, but the way the levels are breezed through is seriously a sight to behold. i really like watching a roll spin go into a downkick, then doing a tall bounce off the enemy's head and immediately into another roll. it looks so fast & fluid! there are lots of ways to set bosses up for being killed super quickly, too, and plenty of ways to stylishly slaughter your way through stages that don't necessarily emphasize speed.

the game frankly feels like a playground! its difficulty is hilariously exaggerated - survival is not very difficult when you've gotten the hang of things, and i feel like getting that grasp comes along rather quickly. perhaps reaching a bit, but i'd almost liken this game to kirby super star - tons of short stages that essentially become playgrounds for your highly varied abilities. kirby requires much less performance and never exercises any difficulty, but i personally find a similar appeal in looking cool and just zooming along in both.

[BIL]

i still consider it a great game, mind you, and i don't think my picking points invalidate what you see or appreciate in it. it has a more addictively tight performance threshold & demand than hard corps or most of the rest of the series, honestly, but i've come to prioritize that a bit less in my favorite games.

Offhand, I think I place my hardcore action favourites on a continuum of love versus fear. HC and CIII lean towards opposite ends of the scale.

i probably differ a fair bit from the forum consensus on my proclivities in this regard, but i'm definitely still much further off from the likes of hg101.

You may not be as much of an outlier as you think here, tbh. Lots of love for the more carefree blasting of Compile, Tecno Soft etc - the militantly hardcore Cave/Raizing/Psikyo et al undeniably headline this community, but not everyone's into the more punishing stuff (and many of us like a bit of both).

Regardless, even members of this forum who literally post on HG101 tend not to be HG101 material. That level of oblivious incompetence is rare! It's why I treasure it so. ¦3

Watch out, this one's from my vintage stash - might need watering down if you're not into the hard stuff:

[MD Daimakaimura] also has a cheat mode where you can slow down the game, play it in Japanese, make Arthur invulnerable (you will be amazed at how difficult the game is even then), or select which level to begin at. Given that the game is essentially impossible without these cheats, this is easily the best version of the game and arguably the best platformer on the console.

the game frankly feels like a playground! its difficulty is hilariously exaggerated - survival is not very difficult when you've gotten the hang of things, and i feel like getting that grasp comes along rather quickly. perhaps reaching a bit, but i'd almost liken this game to kirby super star - tons of short stages that essentially become playgrounds for your highly varied abilities. kirby requires much less performance and never exercises any difficulty, but i personally find a similar appeal in looking cool and just zooming along in both.

Challenge-wise, I always considered Hagane a (much) higher-performance Karuraoh. Charismatically agile ninja action, striking presentation, tragically goddamn expensive and not the sort of easier games I'd keep around without some source of longevity ()... base survival is generally a breeze, but learning to move around with unbroken martial grace easily compensates.

Big difference is, of course, where Karuraoh ultimately remains a cheerfully light-footed platformer, Hagane will set your brain afire with its rapid-fire chain maneuvering via that priceless aerial roll. It feels good seeing it posted about from a newer player's perspective - what a rad move! Sort of a doublejump/airdash hybrid with infinite combo potential, as long as you keep a wall to ricochet or a skull to bounce off handy.

I can actually recall a few solid action gamers who found Hagane notably tricky at first, but inevitably, it's because they were getting tangled up in flashy moves you shouldn't bother with until survival is no longer in question. Once they figured out how dominant the base sword is, and that survival play isn't much more involved than Strider Hiryu, it inevitably clicked fast.

I can believe, with the shit I've seen from this little corner of the web, that once you filter out the total novices who simply have no grasp whatsoever of traditional 2D action, there's a subset of players trying to land those totally shaweet double-salto boss obliterators and eating floor around st2-1. Learn to survive, yo! Going for points or pure style, that shit's universal.

Spoiler

[__SKYe]

You may not be as much of an outlier as you think here, tbh. Lots of love for the more carefree blasting of Compile, Tecno Soft etc - the militantly hardcore Cave/Raizing/Psikyo et al undeniably headline this community, but not everyone's into the more punishing stuff (and many of us like a bit of both).

I very much like playing both kinds of games too -- going for the hardcore stuff all the time would tire me out pretty quickly.

Learn to survive, yo! Going for points or pure style, that shit's universal.

Spoiler

Words to live by.

[BrianC]

Too bad I missed out on getting the JP version of Hagane when the price was much less competitive with the US version. At least I can play it on the SD2SNES.

The only worthy "cheat" mentioned for Ghouls 'n Ghosts MD in the HG101 article is the one to "play it in Japanese". Funny that wording is used since, as far as I know, the only actual JP text in the game is the title. Not to mention that it's also the only "cheat" mentioned that makes the game harder. Considering that they called the game "impossible", I doubt they even used the cheat to play the JP version (which is, of course, far from impossible).

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Hm, I'll go to bat for Hard Corps: Uprising. It's certainly true that its larger toolset compared to previous Contra games separates it from them, but I think most of these basic mechanical changes are positive - the lifebar is far from superfluous given its small size combined with the length and difficulty of stages, the separation between walking and running provides for an interesting strategic choice given the extra damage penalty you take for being hit while dashing (which only heightens the excitement of being able to tear through a stage quickly without taking hits when playing at peak performance), and the double jump, air dash, and bullet-reflection ability are all satisfying abilities to use and are well-tested by the obstacles the game throws at you (I wouldn't praise the game's large toolset if the stages did not promote its full use, for my part I tend to be a bit less interested in action games with a lot of superfluous moves). And although the game is a bit long for an arcade-structured platformer, its stages feature phenomenal variety and throw new, developed scenarios at you all the way to the end; the game supports its length very well.

It's certainly a bit less refined / more flawed than Contra III or Hard Corps (weapon balance is off, some segments of the game are obnoxious to recover from if you start getting slapped around, a few levels have poor readability) but I think its strengths are enough to place it over them as a complete package, even if it isn't quite as airtight.

[kitten]

idk, game looks like an endless runner on the free-scrolling stages when played well and ignores most of the level design & obstacles (game has almost no interesting usage of verticality and the widescreen format very much tunnels the design), and it's filled with lots of fixed scrolling that has dead air when played competently. that's not to mention the usual, modern pacing interruptions like long load times, score tallying, and sometimes even little in-game cinematic bits (boss introductions & stage introductions, as well as stage outros) that remove player control. bosses are agonizingly long when you come in with a poor choice of weapon and still have some really ridiculously large health bars even when taken care of efficiently. the game is over an hour long when played well with the default character, and the final boss is nearly 5 minutes long for a competent player and up to 10 minutes long, otherwise - that's just absurd for a game of this type.

most of this boss fight is just waiting around and then knowing what to do at a few abrupt prompts, and getting killed on this guy (whose entire theme is trying to sucker punch you - he will definitely clown you on your first couple runs, and this game is long enough that that's definitely a sticking point) can mean a weapon downgrade making him take significantly longer. he also gets a full-on cinematic introduction that can never be skipped, and the level ends with an unnecessarily long exit, score tally, and then loading time. it's two minutes from entering the boss arena to the beginning of the next stage, and there's very little actual movement or play. the whole game is chock-full of stuff like this, and i'd probably estimate that even without load times, there's probably more than 10 full minutes of combined dead air/cinematic flourish/etc.

here's an unbroken 30 seconds where a player with the homing weapon does not even need to move or change direction of aim. another 50 seconds of not being able to do anything followed by a boss that doesn't even get an attack off (when killed with the homing weapon!), totaling 2m27s between linked time stamp and the next stage starting. what happens when the stage starts? 30 seconds of firing in place during an auto-scroller, the only movement being four stationary jumps. then 20 more seconds of cinematic flourish. this is a 3 and a half minute chunk of game with hardly any playing the game, and this is the ending of the penultimate stage to the start of the final - where the game is presumably meant to be intense. i really feel like i'm not cherry-picking, here, this is most of the experience.

not to say there aren't bursts of skill present within localized parts of the game, but they're so few and so frequently just have you bypass any of the game's stage design. moments where you're forced to interact with it are auto-scrollers or just have really tedious hazard placement. idk. i don't see any value in this game but for people who are really thrilled at action games with a diverse moveset getting a few minutes out of an hour+ of play to exercise it. for me, that is tortuous. i could not disagree more strongly that this game supports its length, even if it were trimmed of all the nothing.

[Squire Grooktook]

Depends on what you mean by "ingorning the level design". Dashing and jumping through stage 2 is immense fun, IMO.

It's definitely a flawed game, but for me it's at least interesting and has enough winning moments to justify its existence. The main draw for me is the air dash: the combination of semi-alterable Contra jumping and the commitment heavy air dash creates a great acrobatic dynamic that really shines in a number of sequences throughout the game. You could say "other games do it better" and that's true; the recently mentioned Hagane has a similar ability within a much better executed context, but it's only similar, not quite the same.

As I said to Perikles about Cybattler the other day, it's the kind of game that really could have used a sequel to polish out its flaws. With a little bit of balance and trimming it could have been a really unique treat. As is, it's a flawed but (IMO) enjoyable romp with some glaring issues. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to everyone.

*edit*

All those clips you linked are from Leviathen, the DLC character. Are his weapons stronger than the other characters? I don't remember Bahamut/Crystal having access to that homing laser or being able to kill the tower boss as quickly. Then again, it's been a while.

[kitten]

^ just finished recording a nomiss play of hagane, actually! it's a bit sloppy, but i'm mostly happy with it. play a bit embarrassingly throughout stage 4, taking a bunch of unnecessary hits while trying to look cool :B i feel like the lifebar in that game is more of a "have fun" meter that decreases with poor performance. once you get down to a hit or two, you've got to actually start paying attention. i'll have it uploaded by tonight, probably. the biggest difference between the two games (of the many there are) is length and pacing - hagane is an immensely tight game with just the appropriate amount of mild cinematic flourish! knowing exactly where to trim the fat and restrain your design is one of the first things i look for in almost anything, not just action games. all too easy to go over-the-top and inundate the player when you should let your design speak for itself, imho. ark system works wouldn't know what to cut with a million sequels, they're way too obsessed with how cool they think their presentation is.

bahamut does get the homing laser, even in arcade mode. it seems to be the weapon of choice of most players! he's a slight bit weaker with it, but the clips i linked are not considerably different to pull off with him (e.g. that one boss gets to attack, but you just need to walk on top of his head for about 3 seconds while he scoots around before he goes kaput). iconoclast has a run up if you want to compare (keeps laser for entire play with bahamut), but the play by the person i linked is a wee bit cleaner.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah I saw the Hagane talk earlier and wanted to comment. It's a wonderful game, one of the first I tried based on a recommendation from this thread (first page!!!).

Aside from that, last week I did a single sitting playthrough of Cotm's Magician mode based on BIL's recent mention of it. I have some thoughts on it, might type up some feelings when I'm free.

[Stevens]

Went back to Gun.Smoke via Mame. Might spend some more time with it, but the bullets are a bit hard to see playing on a laptop.

I do have it on the PS 2 collection at mom's, so that's an option too.

Some of the music reminds me of Trojan, so I might jump to that next.

EDIT - Screen bright up a bit and a fairly safe route through stage three and I am back on the uh..horse.

[BIL]

Fuck this week and fuck my life. -_- Had THREE THINGS I WANTED TO DO THIS WEEK and managed to just one, badly. RIP STGT week 3.

Yeah I saw the Hagane talk earlier and wanted to comment. It's a wonderful game, one of the first I tried based on a recommendation from this thread (first page!!!).

FIVE FUCKIN YEARS almost. Horrifying thought that Part 4: The Wintry Gravestone of Biru may cap off a twenty-year saga. Link to the "he chose poorly" scene from The Last Crusade goes here. By then I may even have hardware capture for tearing up the 32-bit replays.

Aside from that, last week I did a single sitting playthrough of Cotm's Magician mode based on BIL's recent mention of it. I have some thoughts on it, might type up some feelings when I'm free.

Oh cool, interested to hear! It's most definitely not exempt from Metroidvania's typical self-imposed DIY rules (summons can break it in half!), but it's one of my favourite longer single-sitting action games (summons can also blow up in your face!).

Went back to Gun.Smoke via Mame. Might spend some more time with it, but the bullets are a bit hard to see playing on a laptop.

I do have it on the PS 2 collection at mom's, so that's an option too.

Some of the music reminds me of Trojan, so I might jump to that next.

EDIT - Screen bright up a bit and a fairly safe route through stage three and I am back on the uh..horse.

I feel like even more of a dick () asking this than I ordinarily would, because not only do more people need to play AC Gun.Smoke, but you've also done me the honour of using my "Contains monster genitalia and/or religious imagery" STG Content Advisory Icon as your avatar - but I'd prefer to keep forum-canonised shmups to the main chat forum for now. (Borderliner stuff like Ikari and Commando is A-OK)

Thiiis close to saying fuck it, ground-based autoscrollers are fine. But we're only at Part 2: Dr Biruford Goes To School, and we gotta save something for Part 3: DR BIRUFORD IN PRISON

The PS2 collection is interlaced and yoko-only, sadly, which makes the already muted bullets even harder to see. In the STG Weekly Gun.Smoke ep, I reminisced about being turned off by not only the game's innate searing intensity, but the PS2 comp's muddy grey death. Even now, I sometimes wake up screaming and drenched in sweat, at the thought of facing Pa Wingate's devastating Shotgun Dust Puff on PS2!

You don't know true fear until you've seen an unsuspecting man shredded to convulsing gristle by the Shotgun Dust Puff... and neither did they.

Spoiler

When PA WINGATE was fifteen he spotted some injuns rustling his cattle. "Git ourra mah land" shouted Pa bravely. "No," said BEAR CHIEF indianly while throwing axes at Pa, "is OUR land you fuck." Then Chief's skull exploded as he walked smack into Pa's invisible shotgun spread. His headless corpse crashed to its knees, tongue flapping and blood gushing from a Pez dispenser stump. "He going to kill us" screamed his cohort WOLF SHAGGING PUP, turning to run, but he only smacked into another invisible hitbox. His eyes bulged wide in recognition at his own stomach contents and intestines splattering the dust. "I'm the top cunt on this ranch here now, you fackin' sheepfuckers" roared Pa as his sons J.R. and LIL PA surrounded the cowering injuns. Twenty five years later Pa would meet his end at the dual pistols of BILLY in GUN.SMOKE, the hit coin operated shooting game from Capcom, but not before his invisible shotgun hitbox had claimed the lives of many, many rude cunts looking to steal his land.

If it's an option, the NTSCJ PS1's Capcom Generation 4 port is a superb way to Gun.Smoke (not dick reference!) on console. AC perfect, 240p, TATE and full control config. Irritatingly it was PAL-only in the West. -_- It's on JP Saturn too in slightly compressed form (resolution differences).

Hit up the strategy thread any time btw Round 3 (Japan ver*) is damn near the game's peak intensity, and is harder than much of the remainder, so don't worry if it feels like you're already hitting a wall. In reality you're getting to grips with the worst it has to throw at you. Master that and you'll be in good shape for the rest.

*US ver swaps Ninja's stage with Wolf Chief's grueling marathon... which might not be the worst change, in that you can get that hell march out of the way early, with Round 3's spike closer to the game's end. But Rounds 4 and 7 will still dip noticeably, so I prefer the JP order ultimately. I like that it whips you into shape early.