Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

2. Doujin developers seem to be able to pump out games with 16-bit quality graphics. I mean, look at Astro Port's library; sure, it may be never-ending mediocrity game-wise, but there's a crap ton of pixel art that's faaaaar beyond the "NES limited" style that's en vogue now. Likewise, I know of at least one indie FPS with a graphical fidelity that, while not "modern AAA" quality, is far beyond the likes of Doom/Build Engine (that game is Wrack, go play it if you haven't, it's amazing).

Don't really see that many of them. Astro Port obviously seems to have a few standby artists for all their projects who are very experienced, but the average doujin shmup has basically no animation budget.

Wrack probably have a larger and more experienced (in terms of game development) dev team than most doujin or indie arcade style games.

As it stands people go for 8-bit because its simply the realisticly best art style they can go for. 16 bit is ideal and doable imo but it's would probably take a larger team and development cycle than most indie arcade style games.

[drauch]

I find it hard to criticize any team made up of two people with a modest budget. I'm no pixel artist/programmer myself, but from their perspective I can't imagine this is anything other than a huge task.

[BrianC]

I understand that NES is hard to develop for, but I find it frustrating that it seems to be behind the Intellivision and 2600 in terms of homebrews (though the Battle Kid games look awesome). That one port of frogger is actually missing things most other ports (including the 7800 homebrew Froggie) have. Even the 7800 is catching up in terms of homebrew.

[Obscura]

2. Doujin developers seem to be able to pump out games with 16-bit quality graphics. I mean, look at Astro Port's library; sure, it may be never-ending mediocrity game-wise, but there's a crap ton of pixel art that's faaaaar beyond the "NES limited" style that's en vogue now. Likewise, I know of at least one indie FPS with a graphical fidelity that, while not "modern AAA" quality, is far beyond the likes of Doom/Build Engine (that game is Wrack, go play it if you haven't, it's amazing).

Don't really see that many of them. Astro Port obviously seems to have a few standby artists for all their projects who are very experienced, but the average doujin shmup has basically no animation budget.

There's plenty of non shmup doujin games that have artwork that isn't "8 bit" in style. Look at Fortune Summoners. Or Recettear. Or Chantelise. They're all awful games, sure (although I'll admit that Recettear is a bit of a guilty pleasure; it's an awful game that tells the right jokes to be charming for a few hours if you have the right nostalgia), but the artwork is miles beyond what the western indie scene is doing. And that's not even looking at the real production value blowouts like Crimzon Clover or Gunhound EX or Astebreed or SiterSkain's stuff.

Wrack probably have a larger and more experienced (in terms of game development) dev team than most doujin or indie arcade style games.

Aside from the musician (who did nothing but the music), Wrack's development team has no prior professional game development experience. There's tons of modding experience there, but that's a very different beast.

As it stands people go for 8-bit because its simply the realisticly best art style they can go for. 16 bit is ideal and doable imo but it's would probably take a larger team and development cycle than most indie arcade style games.

Even if you can't afford glorious high-res super-detailed sprites, what do you gain from working around artificial palette limitations and sprite limitations? There's a big difference between "we don't have a big budget or a big team, so we'll make it look as good as we can with this budget" (see: Konjak's "Legend of Princess" or any Flash game from around a decade ago) and "let's make it look like NES!", and another difference between "let's make it look NES" and "let's follow NES palette and sprite restrictions!" "Lets make it look like NES!" seems somewhat pointless to me, unless you're just trading on nostalgia (in which case, why would I not just go play the NES games in the first place?), and the latter seems actively backwards.

[Squire Grooktook]

I dunno, I actually like Fortune Summoners too to an extent.

It really comes down to if you can find an experienced artist or modeler who's willing to work for peanuts. I guess certain western indie developers have had a harder time? Though there are a few decent ones (Rogue Legacy).

Anyway are they really adhering to that many limitations? They go beyond it when they need to, but otherwise it simply seems like their adhering to a few limitations that barely limit in order to complete the Nes look, given they know they don't have the time or skill to pull off a 16 bit look. The pixel art seems really well done in this case so I don't really see the problem.

[drauch]

it's an awful game that tells the right jokes to be charming for a few hours if you have the right nostalgia).

"Lets make it look like NES!" seems somewhat pointless to me, unless you're just trading on nostalgia.

Seems like it would be right up your alley, then.

[Obscura]

The difference is that Recettear is actively telling jokes about old Falcom and Enix action RPGs. It's not just retreading ground that old games did. If it was just a somewhat incompetent clone of a top-down action RPG with the Dragon Warrior character switching mechanics, it wouldn't have been charming for a few hours; it would have just sucked.

I doubt that Steel Assault will outright suck like Recettear does if you strip away the jokes, but given just how many excellent sidescrollers there are out there, "it's like these other games you've played before with graphics that would have been state of the art 25 years ago!" isn't much of a selling point.

[Squire Grooktook]

"it's like these other games you've played before with graphics that would have been state of the art 25 years ago!" isn't much of a selling point.

Point is the sprite work and aesthetic is still good unlike its competitors.

[Obscura]

Define "competitors".

If you mean "the western indie scene", then sure, that's true for the most part. But that's not really all of Steel Assault's competition; it's also competing against every doujin sidescroller ever, every arcade sidescroller that can be played in MAME, every NES/FC sidescroller, every SMS sidescroller, every MD sidescroller, every SNES/SFC sidescroler, every PC Engine sidescroller, every MSX sidescroller, every X68000 sidescroller, etc.

Do all of those games also have bad sprite work? I don't think so.

[drauch]

Man, your grasping for straws now.

NES aesthetic. Why? Reasons, but the main one is because they want to and they explained why. Get over it.

Just don't buy it. Fuck.

[Squire Grooktook]

Define "competitors".

If you mean "the western indie scene", then sure, that's true for the most part. But that's not really all of Steel Assault's competition; it's also competing against every doujin sidescroller ever, every arcade sidescroller that can be played in MAME, every NES/FC sidescroller, every SMS sidescroller, every MD sidescroller, every SNES/SFC sidescroler, every PC Engine sidescroller, every MSX sidescroller, every X68000 sidescroller, etc.

Do all of those games also have bad sprite work? I don't think so.

Western indie scene is indeed what I mean, most of which is composed of garbage programmer art on the side scroller front. Some decent indie side scrollers aesthetically but "retro indie platformer" has become a point of derision both due to its frequency as well as it poor handling.

Doujin titles maybe, though to be honest there aren't all that many doujin platformers or sidescrollers compared to shmups.

I don't think you can call old arcade/console games competition either, but I was never comparing them to old games and I don't see the point in doing so. MAME is in no way a financial competitor, and honestly in terms of gameplay quality I'd say most of the best indie and doujin titles are more than a match for their older inspirations. You could say they compete aesthetically, but comparing nes games to x86k games to pc games is just nonsense.

The game looks nice, nes or not. Solid sprite work, use of color seems nice. I'd call it more than visually pleasing to the eye. They've definitely made the most of their artistic limitations IMO. I don't think this is a great enigma. The artist didn't think he could pull off a 16 bit style adequately, so instead focused on creating the best 8 bit style he could. They went with the Nes Pallate because it didn't seem to really effect that much and "hey why not" but eschewed the nes limitations when they felt necessary. Seems solid to me.

[Austin]

Maldita Castilla. 16-bit style visuals and sound, made by one or two dudes (maybe more?), and it's amazing. I'd like to see more indie efforts in that style. I'm tired of the NES look, personally. It was novel when it hit, but the 16-bit style is far more timeless in my opinion.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I wholeheartedly maintain that a game should be rated relative to its entire genre, platforms be damned, and quite frankly I think Steel Assault compares favorably based on the little we have so far. Yes, I'm aware of what high praise that is. It's no Symphony of the Night, but its art direction has a focus and spirit that puts it well above standard fare. I think just about all of the games you guys have mentioned look worse, as a matter of fact. Doujin games tend to have that fake look to them, like there's a tiny man inside the computer hastily photoshopping the game together as you play (see: Gigantic Army, Chantelise), and that's in addition to the uninspired look they always have. Western indie games just look like shit as a rule, because American game devs have no sense for aesthetics. Steel Assault looks right. Everything fits, and the problems I do see look like idiosyncrasies rather than simple errors.

Maldita Castilla. 16-bit style visuals and sound, made by one or two dudes (maybe more?), and it's amazing. I'd like to see more indie efforts in that style. I'm tired of the NES look, personally. It was novel when it hit, but the 16-bit style is far more timeless in my opinion.

That game is great-looking in a technical sense, but the art style really rubs me the wrong way. Now, Hydorah, there's a pretty game.

Anyway, here's a thing:
Shadow of the Ninja no item clear
Inspired by my previous post. Even "a helpless child" can beat Shadow of the Ninja!

The Garuda fight looks so damn slow when I'm just watching. He may have a simple pattern, but once he goes berserk, it feels like it's going a million miles an hour. You can tell I didn't get a lot of practice with him. I had like four different plans and all of them turned out to be stupid, so there's this awkward bit where I'm just trying not to die while I think. Cancelling an air attack by landing is maybe obvious, but it's not something I ever paid attention to in Shadow of the Ninja, until about 8 this morning anyway. Also fuck Captain Hawk forever.

[BIL]

Shadow of the Ninja no item clear
Inspired by my previous post. Even "a helpless child" can beat Shadow of the Ninja!

Nice. Will enjoy watching this.

[Obiwanshinobi]

NES aesthetic. Why? Reasons, but the main one is because they want to and they explained why.

That is what I gather as well.

[Ghegs]

Sweet, Steel Assault made it. Congrats, guys.

[BIL]

Excellent. ^__^ Wishing further luck to the team, I've gotten good feelings from what I've read so far.

[KindGrind]

I gave Whomp Em a go this afternoon.

I found it straightforward but quite fun. I wish the weapons had more uses, and the last boss wouldn't be such a pain, but I liked it overall. It's not as serious as the Natsume action titles, but is worth playing, in my opinion.

I also played Isolated Warrior, the isometric shooter. I didn't like that the top part of the screen is a no man's land, with a kind of invisible boundary you can't cross. I don't understand the power up system much yet, but the games played well and was pretty to look at. I'm trying to clear my backlog so I can play SCAT within a few days. I had put the NES titles aside in the last few months in favor of the SNES but it feels quite good going back.

Has anyone ever gotten very far in Isolated Warrior?

[BIL]

I gave Whomp Em a go this afternoon.

Oh, that's what the cart I couldn't quite make out from your recent Awesome Stuff pic was. I thought it might've been Kid Niki - I'm totally clueless on large swathes of the console's cuter action games. I've not dived into them like I have the harder-edged stuff that fuels my eternally blazing nerdboner. Now's probably a good time to start, having just about sewn up that angle of my collection (a few pesky NES exclusives aside).

Has anyone ever gotten very far in Isolated Warrior?

Absolutely love this game - picked up the FC version, Max Warrior, to round out a trilogy of KID shooters with Recca and Burai Fighter. Wrote more about it here. Standout feature is the Super Shinobi-esque doublejumping bomb.

I 1CCd up to what I think is the last boss, then stopped (as I'm wont to do - so many games to try out...). It's arcadey, tough and strikingly presented, its weakest link being some very thin BGM. Easily forgotten in the frantic platformer/shooting, though. There's a definite learning period to the perspective, but it's totally solid once adjusted to. Remember to bomb aggressively, and note you can pick up items while airborne (only your shadow need make contact). Recommended.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I'm getting my ass handed to me on a silver platter. Of course I didn't make it and got sent back to 6-1. Grrr... It's so easy to get tangled up in a bunch of enemies. Going to stick with it. Which one is the toughest out of the three nes games?

[BIL]

edit: doh, missed "games;" thought you were asking about the three bosses. Will leave the below in case it's useful. NGIII (NES) is by far the hardest of the trilogy, having a brutal damage scale and some grueling level designs. NG1's not as hard a gauntlet, but the much weaker player character means it still packs a challenge with some nasty chokepoints. NG2 is probably the easiest with its enormously player-favouring firepower, though it's still more than considerably tricky by console standards. Gives score extends like candy, but loves instant pit deaths.

Famicom NGIII was deliberately toned down, where the NES version was expressly toughened up. It's definitely the easiest overall.

---

Jaquio by far, assuming a clean run (meaning no subweapons for he and the Demon). Even subweaponless (and not just insta-killed with jumpslash), Masked Devil boils down to:

a) get hits in on the orb while MD is approaching, retreat once he's close enough to hit you
b) climb the wall, let him get close, jump over and repeat.

Jaquio's attack and movement are simple, but their interplay needs to be understood or a nasty beatdown will ensue. I wrote more about him here. TLDR: take it slow and time your attacks. rush in and get slammed.

Demon = whack his head off, destroy the tail, then do a bit of RNG hot-footing while striking the heart. No real strategy, but the projectiles arc generously before falling, so it's not too tough to handle. Fun fact: the head's skittering away once detached is the sole mandatory hit in the game, so technically you're screwed if you reach him with 1HP. But then, you should reach him with more HP anyway! ;3

[Imhotep]

I've got myself a famicom twin console and have been playing a bit since last weekend.

Lickle
Rather lenient level and enemy design, but very fun and fluid to play through. All characters are fun to use, the wall grabbing mechanic helps a lot to make the navigation fun. Would love to experiment a bit more with the fragile mouse, as his / her bombs are so powerful. The presentation, although a bit on the minimalist side, is capable to maintain a sense of adventure, which is great. The tunes are good, but I'd prefer them not to change with the character.
Top game! 8/10

Raf World
Much more unforgiving than Lickle, not getting hit too much needs a lot of concentration and is necessary to survive. Health power-ups are random and scarce, one has to plan without them. The bosses are impressive, but have very simple patterns. Still, they're fun because of their appearance alone and it's ok to have predictable bosses after such health-draining levels. Graphics are excellent and dark and the soundtrack is fantastic. The level themes are fitting, but progression and story are a bit under-explained.
Great game, more on the "movie side" of things and less gameplay than Lickle. 7.5/10

Warwolf
The movement options are promising but level and enemy design are really erratic and uninteresting. In game graphics are a bit bland, but the short cutscenes and character portraits look great. Still, it's a completely missed opportunity I won't bother with any further.
6/10

[Immryr]

I've had isolated warrior since I was a kid and have completed it many times.

the power up system is fairly simple, the L effects the shot which goes in front and behind you in straight lines, I guess L stands for long maybe? the W I assume stands for wide and effects your spread type shot. I generally favour the L shot over the W. A very useful trick is to remember that when you die you have a second or two where you can press select and switch to your other shot type, that way you can keep your power level on your shot of choice. Bombs are simple too, the icon with the B on it effects your bomb rank, which goes up to five. the higher the rank the more bombs you throw at once, I seem to remember when you get another B icon when you're at max rank it makes the next bomb attack more powerful. A tip with bombs is.... try bombing random walls, if you bomb in certain areas you will find things which refill your health or max out your weapon ranks.

and yeah, you want to mostly stay back towards the bottom of the screen as it is all too easy to miss jumps and land in a pit if you're right at the top.

[Immryr]

BIL, while I don't think isolated warrior has the best nes music by any stretch, I think some of the stages are pretty good. these ones in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-gMQuH ... 8&index=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W_J_XM ... 5D855E9B68

[KindGrind]

I'm going to give Isolated Warrior another go tonight, thanks for the tips!

[Austin]

Has anyone ever gotten very far in Isolated Warrior?

Roughly what I believe is 3/4 the way through the game. One of those fast moving stages that requires constant jumping. It's one of those games I've been meaning to go back to. I feel like I should be able to finish it but just haven't been able to do it in the past.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Finally installed HBC on my Wii and I'm enjoying Genesis-Plus-GX.
Chameleon Kid is one cool game. So the platforming doesn't feel as tight as in Super Mario Bros., but its eclecticism reminds me of Turrican (and its clones). It's like SMB meets Monster World meets Metroid...

[BIL]

BIL, while I don't think isolated warrior has the best nes music by any stretch, I think some of the stages are pretty good. these ones in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-gMQuH ... 8&index=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W_J_XM ... 5D855E9B68

Argh, stage 3's BGM is my least favourite along with stage 2's. Those two I actually find poor, not merely forgettable. I get what st3 is going for, and I can always dig more mechanistic, offbeat music. The tone and composition are just weak though. It does at least create a hostile atmosphere (particularly good complement to those bleak rescue intermissions). Nobuyuki Shioda did dramatically better at creating discomforting yet eminently listenable BGM in the later Recca.

[Immryr]

yeah I can agree that it's pretty thin sounding and repetitive, but it fits the mood perfectly.

the one thing I dislike about isolated warrior is that even after having the game for 25~ years I have no idea how being hit, or hitting enemies while in the air works. one thing for sure is that jumping is over powered, all of the bosses can be beaten by basically moving from left to right while jumping as much as possible. I played through this game for the first time in a couple of years earlier this week and managed to get the 1cc, killing the last boss with the base level weapon by moving left to right and spamming jump.

[Immryr]

Bil, do you consider dragon fighter, Kage and shatterhand a trilogy only cause you haven't played power blade? Or does that game not fit for some reason?